Ep. 50: Jay Baer on The BIGGEST Mistake That EVERY Leader Makes

In this episode, David sits down with Jay Baer, Digital Marketing and Customer Experience Expert, Author, and Podcast Host, to discuss why Talk Triggers are so important and the biggest mistake that every leader makes.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Jay’s Bio:
Jay Baer, CSP, CPAE has spent 25 years in digital marketing and customer experience, consulting for more than 700 companies during that period, including 34 of the FORTUNE 500. His current firm – Convince &Convert – provides word of mouth, digital marketing, and customer experience advice and counsel to some of the world’s most important brands.

His new book, Talk Triggers, is the complete guide to creating customers using strategic, operational differentiators that compel word of mouth. In the best companies, the customers do the marketing. Talk Triggers is the instruction manual for making businesses grow with customer conversation.

Jay speaks approximately 60 times per year world-wide, often with lessons about how businesspeople can use today’s shifts in technology and consumer expectations to gain or keep more customers.

Jay’s Convince & Convert blog was named the world’s #1 content marketing blog by the Content Marketing Institute, and is visited by more than 250,000 marketers each month. Jay also hosts and produces the Social Pros podcast, which is downloaded 65,000 times monthly and was named best marketing podcast by the Content Marketing Awards.

Jay lives in the idyllic college town of Bloomington, Indiana with his wife and children, and travels from Indianapolis to speaking opportunities world-wide.

Jay’s Links:
Website: https://www.jaybaer.com/
Jay’s NEW Newsletter: http://thebaerfacts.com/
“Talk Triggers” by Jay Baer and Daniel Lemin: https://amzn.to/39UY2vc
Social Pros podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/social-pros-podcast/id499844469
Instagram: https://instagram.com/jaybaer
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaybaer
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaybaer/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheRealJayBaer

Key Quotes:
1. “We trust people more than we trust any leader or organization or government or media.”
2. “The best way to grow any business, is for your customers to do that growing for you.”
3. “Word of mouth is just a story.”
4. “Competency keeps your customers, but competency doesn’t create stories.”
5. “A talk trigger isn’t actually marketing, it’s operations.”
6. “Differing expectations doesn’t have to be better, it just has to be different.”
7. “A talk trigger has to be an experience not a bullet point.”
8. “When you give somebody an experience that’s too grand it doesn’t create conversation, it stops conversation.”
9. “A talk trigger only works if it’s something that the customer doesn’t expect.”
10. “There is some wisdom to doing less but doing it better.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
Lindey’s Steakhouse: https://theplaceforsteak.com/
“Talk Triggers” by Jay Baer and Daniel Lemin: https://amzn.to/39UY2vc
Jay’s NEW Newsletter: http://thebaerfacts.com/
Social Pros podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/social-pros-podcast/id499844469

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

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Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a very close friend a special guests we’ve been in a mastermind group for several years, welcome to the show Jay Baer.

Jay Baer: Fantastic to be here my friend, I looked at the episode count and it’s nice to know that I think i’m just barely one of the 50 leaders that you trust the most somewhere.

Jay Baer: there’s about 47 people that you trust more than me and that’s Okay, you know, no, no, I wouldn’t go that far, you know but you’d you’d move up the food chain for sure.

David Horsager: yeah that finally finally got your schedule opened up now.

Jay Baer: that’s right that’s right company so.

Jay Baer: i’m finally trustworthy enough to make the show appreciate.

David Horsager: Well, so everybody knows you know Jay’s a seven generation entrepreneur he’s just very recently.

David Horsager: sold his 50 companies built, you know five multimillion dollar companies get six best selling books we’re going to talk about one of those today that i’m especially interested in, though I think everything back to.

David Horsager: hug your haters and you go back to you know utility and all those there’s just great golden each of them, but I want to touch on this.

David Horsager: This talk triggers one also he’s worked with everything from advising and speaking at the United Nations 3am Oracle Nike and a host of others.

David Horsager: Is that he really is a genuine thought leader in in digital communications and marketing and in just playing customer experience so more than that give us a give us a quick little background on us something we don’t know to get us started.

Jay Baer: Well, I started in politics, I was originally a political campaign consultant and used to do all of the direct mail for the late Senator john McCain it was a fantastic boss in it.

Jay Baer: And a great line of the Senate and, and so I started in direct mail and then got into a lot of other types of MEDIA I work for the government for about 20 minutes I realized that that was not my thing I worked for.

Jay Baer: Waste management, and so I gave him a landfill tour so i’m going to be part of the show on how landfills are constructed, I could absolutely do that.

Jay Baer: I got involved in the Internet at the very, very beginning 1993 so I started in digital marketing.

Jay Baer: At the very beginning, so so early Dave that that domain names were free you could get whatever.com you wanted and you wouldn’t have to pay anything for it because.

Jay Baer: At that point 93 like who would want to have what would you do with a website, there was no such thing really it was so early and this is 100% true my partners and I sold the domain name budweiser.com to anheuser busch brewing in 1993 for 50.

Jay Baer: Cases of beer That was our actual purchase price now in my Defense I think I was 23 years old or 24 at that point, I was the oldest of the partners.

Jay Baer: And we didn’t just you know give it away we we stipulated in the written contract that it had to be bottles not cans, because you know you got to stay classy.

Jay Baer: So it was a long time ago, so I I have literally seen firsthand the entire development of digital marketing.

Jay Baer: Since it was sort of at the drawing board a phase two to what it has become now you know, a trillion dollar business or whatever it is so it’s been an interesting an interesting 30 years for sure.

David Horsager: Unbelievable I was in those days, you know I went through college, all the way through college with never going on a website.

Jay Baer: or using a typewriter and college.

David Horsager: yeah and the next year it was everywhere, for me, yeah.

David Horsager: yeah and I moved to Arkansas so where I was at least, it was a couple years later, but but anyway, and I, by the way, just say that, with a wink because I love Arkansas and my my.

Jay Baer: boy your Arkansas listeners like wait a SEC.

Jay Baer: yeah I know soccer This is ridiculous.

David Horsager: They were there, there are some of the dearest friends, I have an objective.

Jay Baer: reviews and their show next week will.

David Horsager: be a special time.

David Horsager: Now, but it is interesting because, even in the role I hadn’t said we just didn’t it was it was a few years later, and I mean it blew up and but.

David Horsager: You know it’s just an it was something else to see what happened so that’s fascinating.

David Horsager: we’re going to get into this i’m going to start with the some of the book stuff just content that way we’re going to get personal overtime, because it says the trusted leader show and you’re a leader to.

David Horsager: Just so many but let’s jump in if people haven’t seen that people can see I your market or dog ear and everything else talk triggers.

David Horsager: The book by Jay baer and I just think this might be interesting to start because let’s just here just a glimpse of what it is, I want to talk about the four talk triggers for a moment I.

David Horsager: think this is relevant to everybody, as they try to.

David Horsager: You know.

David Horsager: convince people as they try to connect with people as they try to really.

David Horsager: Show trust the people, and we could we could actually talk about any of your books hug your haters maybe another show will do that because that’s all about trust isn’t in a way, but um let’s talk about this word this come from.

Jay Baer: A first of all I should I should note that the book has co authored by my good friend Daniel lemon his contributions to the book were.

Jay Baer: Significant and the thought leadership behind it Dave the premise is this, we trust people more than we trust any leader or organization or government or media.

Jay Baer: We trust each other, the most and we always have going all the way back to caveman days, where somebody said well who.

Jay Baer: Which caveman sells the sharpest you know arrowheads like well you know blog he’s the man right, I mean it’s the.

Jay Baer: it’s the recommendations from from your peers, are the ones that carry the most weight and the fundamental premise of the book.

Jay Baer: And well it’s really written for for a business kind of company perspective and applies to individuals and and speakers and parents and spouses, as well the premise is that the best way to grow any business or any audience or trust is for your customers to do that growing for you.

Jay Baer: And I, we all know that to be true right.

David Horsager: But.

Jay Baer: If you ask businesses hey How important is word of mouth do your business, they will all say important all of them, yet, and this part is the thing that makes this book so important.

Jay Baer: Nobody has an actual strategy to do it the actual data from john john says that fewer than 1% of all businesses have an actual word of mouth strategy.

Jay Baer: Fewer than 1% yet you’ve got a strategy for everything else right you gotta you gotta leadership strategy to trust strategy if you follow Dave and you should you’ve got a.

Jay Baer: PR strategy crisis strategy hiring strategy, you know diversity strategy, etc, etc, etc marketing strategy of course social media strategy, but the one thing you don’t have a strategy for is perhaps the most important thing at all of all, which is why should people tell your story.

David Horsager: I think the most something really interesting that seems like almost a contradiction at first we’ve got this guy one of the one of the.

David Horsager: Most sought after thought leaders in the world on digital and marketing and you hear so much you know shazam and those spaces and here Jay baer is saying.

David Horsager: It is all about word of mouth that’s the string as much as you’ve done in the space of digital and, by the way, you can use digital.

David Horsager: But this whole this whole piece of kind of what I loved about it, is it got back to truth to authenticity to what are real people really saying not um.

David Horsager: We did it, you know in our study we find that continually like reviews online reviews are tanking because people don’t trust them, whereas.

David Horsager: What you hear from someone specifically that you know is that trust is going up immensely and I think that’s just it’s really interesting in the space right.

Jay Baer: yeah you’re exactly right there is more online word of mouth now than ever before, because of social media, the prevalence of ratings and review sites, etc, so so mathematically the volume of online word of mouth is higher.

Jay Baer: Especially in the pandemic because there’s just not as many occasions for offline word of mouth and there compared to pretend, however, the impact of offline word of mouth.

Jay Baer: Somebody you actually know at your kids soccer game, or what have you is higher, because you have that existing relationship with the person who was passing the story along and.

Jay Baer: People ask me a lot Dave like well okay I don’t get this if If businesses know that word of mouth is important.

Jay Baer: How is it then that they don’t have a strategy for it like what I mean you know this it’s 2022 almost like you know word of mouth been around for thousands of years, how is it that people don’t have a strategy and and here’s why.

Jay Baer: Almost every business or leader makes the same mistake and the mistake is believing that competency creates conversation.

Jay Baer: That, if you run a good organization or you are trusted and you’re good at execution that that naturally people will notice that.

Jay Baer: And we’ll talk about it and that seems right on paper, it does, but it’s not actually right in the real world, because that’s not how human beings behave every person in the world, including you me, and everybody tuning in is wired the same way.

Jay Baer: We are wired to discuss things that are different and ignore things that are expected.

Jay Baer: Let me tell you about this experience I had last night.

Jay Baer: It was perfectly adequate.

Jay Baer: said, nobody in history right yeah if I went over here and flick the switch and these lights went off in my office.

Jay Baer: I wouldn’t be like Dave you won’t believe what happened when I hit these switch slides one off, you know why because that’s how lights work, and we all know that, so there isn’t a story that word of mouth is just a story, and you being good at your job.

Jay Baer: isn’t the story because that’s what they expect right that’s why it’s really, really hard for restaurants, for example, to create word of mouth around food quality and sort of tastiness unless it’s just.

Jay Baer: Beyond beyond crazy because guess what if you’re buying a meal in a restaurant you expect it to be good that’s the whole point.

Jay Baer: Right, so you don’t get conversational credit for doing exactly what customers expect you to do and that’s the mistake everybody makes they just focus on competency, which is important don’t get me wrong.

Jay Baer: competency keeps your customers, but competency doesn’t create stories because it’s just like yeah Of course they do that right sure.

David Horsager: let’s talk about that, because you, you name one in the book, I remember you got cheesecake factory they create a talk trigger you talked about Hilton and the cookie.

Jay Baer: They created a cookie that’s right so.

David Horsager: So let’s do a workaround just kind of round about here, first of all those four talk triggers your name in the book talk about them and then and then we’ll get back and forth a couple examples, because I think it’s really interesting so those four hours.

Jay Baer: So if you want, if you want your customers to tell a story about you and you do, you have to give them a story to tell.

Jay Baer: And that story is something that you do operationally, and this is a really important premise a talk trigger isn’t actually marketing.

Jay Baer: Its operations, it provides huge marketing advantages, but it really is an operational choice that you make in your business okay to do something that customers do not expect.

Jay Baer: That will cause conversations, so you talked about the chocolate chip cookie at doubletree hotels, they give out to every guest every time they check in we studied that in the book and.

Jay Baer: The third one, is a warm right it’s not just a pile of cookies under a glass Dome that’s the key they hand it to warm.

Jay Baer: 34% of their customers have told a story about that cookie.

Jay Baer: They used to give out pre pandemic 75,000 cookies a day days, so do the math on that 34% time 75,000 a day is 25,000 to 300 stories a day.

Jay Baer: About a chocolate chip cookie now companion question when’s the last time you saw a doubletree add.

Jay Baer: Like kind of never because they advertise far less than any other hotel at that price point because of the cookie is the Ad.

Jay Baer: And the guests are the sales and marketing department and that’s when you know you have a word of mouth strategy that actually works, one of my favorite quotes in history.

Jay Baer: From Robert Stevens, who is the founder of geek squad the services arm for best buy a brilliant brilliant man Robert once said that advertising is a tax paid by the unremarkable.

Jay Baer: And there’s a lot of truth to that right, you know, yes there’s a time and a place for advertising, but it’s also true that many of the best brands advertise the least.

Jay Baer: because their customers do that job for them willingly through word of mouth.

Jay Baer: So it’s an operational choice that you make they’ve chosen to give everybody a warm chocolate chip cookie cheesecake factory is chosen to have a 200 page long menu they don’t have to do that, they chose to do it.

Jay Baer: It creates conversation just go to Twitter and type in cheesecake factory plus menu, you lose a whole afternoon it’s hilarious.

Jay Baer: But not anything you come up with not just like anything you dream up will work as a trigger to your point there’s four requirements for ours that have to be true for your operational choice to be a doctor.

Jay Baer: Let me go.

David Horsager: Talk about those yeah I.

David Horsager: OK, I think it’s interesting because you look at cheesecake factory, which I love that story in the book you kind of open with it and and it’s just.

David Horsager: That this the talk to all these people talk about this long massive you know menu, but you think about that from a cost standpoint as a leader it’s like Oh, you know there there’s a.

Jay Baer: it’s also a scratch kitchen there right so everything is scratch.

David Horsager: I know.

David Horsager: If.

Jay Baer: I can make that.

Jay Baer: They have to put a little finer point on it for the audience they make chicken.

Jay Baer: More than 60 different ways.

Jay Baer: yeah 60 in that restaurant I can’t if you told me hey name all the ways to make chicken I couldn’t come up with 60 they make chicken 60 ways in a restaurant right so yeah operationally it’s incredibly complex and, in fact, their founder says in the book.

Jay Baer: Like there’s no way any restaurant will ever copy this because it’s so hard and it’s so operationally challenging.

Jay Baer: But that’s why it’s so powerful for my word of mouth standpoint you can’t believe it, you know what is going on here they make all the foods they make everything every dish ever made it’s like a compendium of chow.

David Horsager: I think it’s it’s interesting you go through the list of what was what is so unique at the ethics in Chicago where they’re rude.

David Horsager: Great what was that happened or i’m in our space out i’ll just you know push back on the opposite, we there’s a little steakhouse known in in just right next to where I went to college.

David Horsager: that’s the university and it’s called lindy steakhouse and the steak is amazing and it’s not a little place isn’t that great nothing like grapes, but you know that the in fact nothing about it is remarkable like you’re having these amazing very expensive steaks.

David Horsager: yeah and yet you kind of have the it’s not white tablecloth the field at all, you have three choices.

David Horsager: Three choices, you have this nice steak this say steak.

David Horsager: steak that’s it, you have you get with that.

David Horsager: A baked potato and a salad.

David Horsager: yeah welcome to our steakhouse.

Jay Baer: yeah the state goes.

David Horsager: super successful only on word of mouth.

David Horsager: yeah for those that want to know lindy steakhouse in Arden hills Minnesota but anyway.

David Horsager: But they made the word of mouth in kind of the opposite.

Jay Baer: way.

David Horsager: Right and so anyway.

Jay Baer: yeah bye bye bye bye dude but but what’s interesting about that it’s tolerable, not because it is.

Jay Baer: Less it’s talk about because it’s not what you expect from a steak house.

Jay Baer: Right so so different expectations doesn’t have to be better.

Jay Baer: It just has to be different right so so it doesn’t have to be fancier, and that makes it talk about it can be less fancy and that’s what makes it possible right so it’s just about breaking the expected pattern.

Jay Baer: Not necessarily better or worse, it just has to be unusual, and so my another steakhouse example is a great steak house in Los Angeles, so the top of that intercontinental hotel building there in downtown.

Jay Baer: They have a steak knife menu so very France very fancy steak place and you order your steak and then the they’ve got like a steak knife Somalia.

Jay Baer: Who comes to your table with a velvet light box and opens it up and there’s 11 different steak knives in there you got your big like Australian like that’s a nice one, and then you got like a really fancy like Pearl handled French one.

Jay Baer: And everything in between right it’s a steak knife menu you get to pick and choose your weapon which I think is awesome.

Jay Baer: amazing talk trick to great one.

David Horsager: Well we’re looking at talk trigger to and before we get totally into the ours, but those of you watching can see Jay in a Plaid jacket.

David Horsager: And you know Jay is in the speaker hall of fame.

David Horsager: And is an amazing speaker and one of the interesting things everybody knows, but in fact someone brought this up to me today when they heard, we were having you on the show.

David Horsager: And that is that if you hire Jay to speak you go on to his website and you get a PIC which Plaid soon he wears for your event, you can match.

David Horsager: With your color of your logo, or whatever, but but it’s talk well because meeting planners speakers bureaus and others talk about OJ not just the guy in the Plaid soon, maybe people just see us to kind of you know.

David Horsager: Seeing the Plaid suit your brilliance and all that, but that event planner shares of those and I got the PIC.

Jay Baer: What he wants it yeah Thank you and I tell you that we switch that a few years ago, so I always wore Plaid suits on stage.

Jay Baer: Because I wanted people to be able to find me after I got off stage.

Jay Baer: And in in conferences that we speak get everybody’s wearing a suit in many cases, and so no one can find who who’s the speaker if you’re wearing a jacket and pants that nobody else has.

Jay Baer: it’s easy for them to come up to you later and be like hey I had a question I forgot to ask or we’d love to have you come to our event whatever so I originally did it.

Jay Baer: Just for audience recognition after the speech and that worked great, but then I realized well yeah I want the audience to find me, but the audience isn’t really my customer the customer is the meeting planner.

Jay Baer: And it’s not an experience for them other than then looking at me, and so it worked, it was a differentiator but not really a talk trigger.

Jay Baer: A talk trigger has to be an experience, not a bullet point that’s why double tree has an oven, and every hotel in hands you a warm cookie.

Jay Baer: Every buddy listening probably has, at some point in their life been at a hotel that has a basket of fruit, either at the front desk or by the elevator okay.

Jay Baer: it’s a waste of citrus from a marketing standpoint, nobody has ever told a story about that nobody’s ever said and guess what I was at the radisson and they had apples by the elevator nobody has ever told that story why.

Jay Baer: it’s so similar to the cookie idea, but the cookie is an experience.

Jay Baer: it’s warm you can smell it they hand it to you, they look you in the eye when they give it to you it’s an experience, whereas.

Jay Baer: The apples are just a pile, and so I kind of had that realization that I was making that same mistake me just wearing a Plaid suit on stage is just my version of a bowl of apples once I made a special website.

Jay Baer: And then let meeting planners go and pick out from one of 14 different suits now it’s an experience for them they’re part of the gag see.

Jay Baer: And then it becomes much more powerful and much more of a storytelling propellant for them, and the best way, and this sometimes happens.

Jay Baer: Is when the meeting planner will pick out say three that they, like the best, then they screenshot that and put it in the pre event email send it out to all the delegates and let them vote on which one I were that’s the best case here, because then it’s an experience for everybody.

David Horsager: Not just the meeting plan and i’ve heard you introduced by the way, just that’s awesome because you bring everybody into it, but i’ve heard you introduced and we picked, what do you order today Okay, who can say that so let’s jump backwards for a second, so we have the framework or.

Jay Baer: Or are.

David Horsager: And I can name them, because I know and talk about them, but I want you to do it, the four r’s that actually make something.

David Horsager: A talker visa requirements.

Jay Baer: yep for things that are required First, it has to be remarkable has to be worthy of remark, a story worth telling and this goes back to you, it has to be different enough that people like oh.

Jay Baer: I can’t believe the stakes are so good, and all the fears are broken or whatever the circumstances are lindy right, it has to be outside the pattern that’s the first one remarkable.

Jay Baer: Second, one is it needs to be repeatable and what I mean by this is it’s common that people will make a mistake when they’re thinking through word of mouth and say all right here’s what we’re gonna do.

Jay Baer: we’re gonna do something special and we’re going to offer that special thing to our biggest customers or our newest customers or our longest standing customers.

Jay Baer: make sense airlines do it that way, but the problem is when you think about the point of word of mouth, which is to get everybody telling your story.

Jay Baer: If you only offer the top trigger to a subset of your audience, you are, by definition, reducing the number of people who experience it.

Jay Baer: Therefore, the number of people who will tell the story, so the best talk triggers are the ones that everybody has a crack at.

Jay Baer: everybody gets the same long menu cheesecake factory everybody gets a cookie at doubletree every event gets to pick out my suit and on and on and on, so you want it to be repeatable.

Jay Baer: Not a section of your audience, the whole audience that’s the second one third one, is it needs to be reasonable another mistake people make a lot is they try to shock in off customers into creating word of mouth.

Jay Baer: Perhaps the the classic example which isn’t in the book, but I think it’s illustrative is the publishers clearing house sweepstakes remember that, where you could buy magazine subscriptions and then somebody would win $10 million.

Jay Baer: The problem was especially in those days, the prize was so outlandish that they actually had to spend probably more than $10 million.

Jay Baer: on TV advertising showing them actually giving a big check to people for people to believe that somebody would actually win $10 million.

Jay Baer: They would have been much better off to give away a million dollars, because then people would have said yeah that makes sense and they wouldn’t have had to buy ads to produce evidence that it existed.

Jay Baer: This happens in B2B a lot right you’ve been to so many conferences and events Dave.

Jay Baer: Where you’ve got like the tradeshow floor right and they’ve got all these contests and and you got some software coming like hey put your business card in the fishbowl and, at the end of the show one of us going to win a Caribbean island.

Jay Baer: Like wait what.

Jay Baer: Wait a second that that can’t be right there’s no way that’s true, so the summary of this is that when you give somebody inexperienced that’s two grand.

Jay Baer: It doesn’t create conversation it stops conversation because they don’t necessarily believe it and nobody wants to get involved in word of mouth and tell their friends, something that might be bogus and untrue, so it has to be.

Jay Baer: Reasonable right a chocolate chip cookie it’s a darn good cookie but it’s just a cookie right.

David Horsager: Are you gonna say there’s a differentiator from an apple just plain on tastes there.

Jay Baer: Yes, yes.

Jay Baer: You don’t need to overshoot it so don’t shock and it doesn’t actually work backfires.

Jay Baer: And then the the fourth thing is, wherever possible, it should be relevant right, it needs to tie back to your core value proposition or the elements of your brand that make you trusted.

Jay Baer: This isn’t just about randomness right so it’s not like hey we need word of mouth so let’s go renton an elephant and we’ll put a blanket over it with our logo on it and we’ll walk that elephant down mainstream.

Jay Baer: Like yeah you could do that, but the word of mouth won’t be about your business it’ll be about the elephant because it’s too weird so the best talk triggers are the ones that make sense in the context of who you are.

Jay Baer: And what you’re about and, if I may.

Jay Baer: see people ask me like well wait a second you know doubletree hotels around a bakery, why do they give away chocolate chip cookies well good question.

Jay Baer: I talked to their CMO that link for the book their client as well and.

Jay Baer: turns out that all the hotels and the Hilton portfolio there’s like 22 brands, I think that Hilton owns right you got the Conrad Hilton the doubletree The Hampton INN all of them.

Jay Baer: And they each are trying to shoot for like a different travel they don’t want to go head to head because it’s very inefficient corporately you know somebody like luxury.

Jay Baer: Personal travel some or mid range business travel, you know they all have different audiences because of that they all have different brand positions double trees brand positioning.

Jay Baer: According to their chief marketing officer very trusted leader is the warm welcome the warm welcome doubletree.

Jay Baer: wants to really dominate that I don’t know, whatever it is 710 minutes between when you set foot on the property and when you set foot.

Jay Baer: In your room that gap of time they want to be disproportionately good at that, so they put more time money effort into lobby design than most hotels at that price point.

Jay Baer: More time money effort in front desk clerk training than most people in that price point and the cookie is a big part of that right because again it’s not just a pile of cookies.

Jay Baer: it’s a warm cookie handed you hand to hand pass in a paper sleeve hand to hand pass is the brand standard so think about it, warm welcome warm cookie.

Jay Baer: It fits the brand standard right that’s why I wore a Plaid suits before you get to pick out my plan see that’s part of my kind of stand up comic sort of stage persona.

Jay Baer: It makes sense, so what you don’t want is a talk trigger that’s like yeah we we sell cars, but our talk trigger is everybody gets free bubble gum like yeah I don’t get it it doesn’t I don’t it doesn’t make sense right So those are the four.

David Horsager: I love it so that is interesting, I think about this for our business, you know I.

Jay Baer: don’t want you.

David Horsager: go with this, but we’ve thought about a lot in and we’ve you know for me okay so i’m.

David Horsager: You know this trust thing is is a big deal, we have a way of thinking about it but it’s like okay i’m going to be part of my thing is i’m not going to be stressed, for them like we’re going to serve them so well, so we take care of all the details on the opposite side but.

David Horsager: As far as a look it’s not going to be weird or not even unique not even going to the plan.

David Horsager: it’s going to be.

David Horsager: A dark like a not an odd suit not have this not have that any recommendations for people to think you know they’re kind of in this space where they’re not nothing about them is that odd or not odd, but like sometimes.

Jay Baer: would be well it doesn’t have to be something in almost every case.

Jay Baer: They talk trigger isn’t something that you already do.

Jay Baer: it’s something that you decide to do, but it just fits philosophically into your overall vibe.

Jay Baer: mean there is a point at which doubletree didn’t give out cookies long time ago, but there’s a point at which that did not happen so.

Jay Baer: It doesn’t have to be something you’re already doing, in fact, in almost every case it’s not but this might be a good time to talk briefly about the five types of talk.

David Horsager: triggers let’s do it i’ve got an.

Jay Baer: outline I love to get the four four requirements remarkable.

Jay Baer: repeatable reasonable relevant.

Jay Baer: All for those things must be true, then you want to talk trigger that is at least one of these five things okay.

Jay Baer: Talk double speed means you’re faster than your audience expects you to be there is an accounting firm in indianapolis called boggling often dodges totally unremarkable.

Jay Baer: Small accounting firm does the same thing every accounting firm does for the same price.

Jay Baer: Fine, except they reply to every client via phone or email within five minutes at all times five minute response time from an accounting firm they’ve got like 80 Google reviews, which is crazy for an accounting firm and they all mentioned how fast there.

Jay Baer: it’s outside your expected pattern.

Jay Baer: Like white super fast accounting firm that’s know where they all tell that story for sure so talk about speed is one.

Jay Baer: Talk about usefulness is one we were just more useful than your audience expects you to be more more kind of helpful and this is typically rooted in information sort of giving away free information is how that one works, and you have a tolerable.

Jay Baer: attitude, which is when you’re a little more sort of wacky or or irreverent then, then what people might expect you to be there’s a.

Jay Baer: there’s a great band that I talked about on stage and this one there they’re a group of seven session musicians from nashville incredibly accomplished jazz and blues players.

Jay Baer: But because they’re session musicians are contracted to labels they’re not allowed to tour and perform it’s just part of their contract, they only have to work in the studio for other musicians.

Jay Baer: So they get around that by dressing up wrapping themselves in Mummy clothes they literally are wrapped in Mummy bandages.

Jay Baer: And then they travel the whole country in secret, nobody knows literally nobody knows who they are still in the band is called here come the mummies.

Jay Baer: So that’s amazing right like if you listen to their music yeah, this is a great song, but if you watch them you’re like oh these guys are mummies like okay now i’m telling that story right so that’s that stackable attitude which is, which is one I really like.

Jay Baer: Talk about one.

Jay Baer: Of the one that we, the one that happens, the most often.

Jay Baer: Right is is when you give somebody more than then they expect right so.

David Horsager: We call that one talk about generosity.

Jay Baer: that’s right talk about generosity and and so that’s the one that is most common so free chocolate chip cookie talk about generosity.

Jay Baer: is the one that you see most often in the wild because it’s usually the one that’s the easiest to operationalize.

Jay Baer: But it doesn’t always it doesn’t it’s not inherently better or more tolerable it’s just the one that most people can think through how to do it easier.

Jay Baer: They expect this we give them that thing plus this other thing right so generosity is the one that’s most common but by no means the best.

Jay Baer: And the last one I think run five is yes, talk about empathy where you’re just you’re just more human then then customers expect you to be right, you just take better care of them, I was in for surgery earlier this year and two days later in the mail I got a handwritten Thank you note.

Jay Baer: From that was signed by the surgeon, the anesthesiologist and three different flavors of nurses.

Jay Baer: Thanks, very much for being here hope you feel better this wasn’t an elective surgery, this was like a surgery, I had to have and i’m like whoa wait a second.

Jay Baer: shouldn’t I be sending you a thank you note we have this we have this relationship upside down, but I really appreciated it and I tell that story all the time, because it was so unexpected.

Jay Baer: And that’s just sort of.

Jay Baer: Treating a human being, like a human being.

Jay Baer: When it’s time to do that, that one can be harder for bigger companies to do, although it worked for this hospital, it can be hard for bigger companies, because sometimes.

Jay Baer: Some TEAM members are more inherently empathetic than others, you can train for it but it’s sometimes hard for big companies.

David Horsager: there’s so much here, but before we get into a couple personal questions, I just have to ask how would you start you got a team you got a company.

David Horsager: How would you start in the in the book, just so everybody knows everybody can see it that’s watching but it’s talk triggers by Jager and Daniel 11 and you’ve got a whole process and there’s so many great.

David Horsager: ideas.

Jay Baer: So step process right in.

David Horsager: That process, how would How would I take my team i’m gonna get my team together at the boardroom.

Jay Baer: taters The worst thing you should do.

Jay Baer: The worst thing you should do is the thing that everybody does, unfortunately, which is they get ready in a conference room they brainstorm it if it was that easy you’d already have one it’s not that easy that’s why you need a book.

Jay Baer: So the first thing you want to do.

Jay Baer: Is, and this is slightly different than how it works in the book, but the first thing you should do is map your customer journey So what are all the touch points that you have with customers today website phone live event email invoice.

Jay Baer: reminder invoice right effort right, so you map that whole thing up customer journey map.

Jay Baer: And then you want to go interview some customers when we do this professionally as a consulting firm, we often will interview 18 customers.

Jay Baer: sometimes lose a survey it’s better as one on one phone calls, but you know you do what you can do what you want to ideally do is interview 18 customers, one on one six new customers.

Jay Baer: Six kind of customers that have been with you for a while and ideally six lost or lapsed customers.

Jay Baer: And what you do is you, you talk through that customer journey hey remember when you came to our website for the very first time.

Jay Baer: What reactions, did you have and what did you expect.

Jay Baer: And then you just shut up right just let them talk, you want to have them and i’ll walk you through the reactions and their expectation for each of those key touch points and inflection points because remember a talk trigger only works if it’s something that the customer doesn’t expect.

Jay Baer: And so to know what they don’t expect you first have to know what they do expect and we often think that we know what our customers expect but but i’ve been doing this for a long time.

Jay Baer: And it’s very common that that we don’t fully understand what customers expect we’re too close to it right you can’t see the label.

Jay Baer: Of the JAR that you’re in so it’s much better off to to let customers talk you through that and then what you do is you say okay here’s what they expected we actually create an expectations map.

Jay Baer: And then you say all right, the three most kind of important touch points, our first phone call send them the bill and the conversation we have about renewals.

Jay Baer: All right, those are the three most important things here’s what they expect for those what can we do at each of those three touch points are one of those three touch points.

Jay Baer: That they wouldn’t expect right, how can we be empathetic, how can we be generous like would be useful, whatever and and then you you figure out how to operationalize that talk trigger and then really importantly you test it.

Jay Baer: So what you want to do is say Okay, they talk trigger is going to be.

Jay Baer: letting meeting planners pick out your suit well, then you don’t do it for everybody, you do it for like every fourth person and then you check how talk about is.

Jay Baer: You ask them afterwards hey did you tell a story about anything, would you mentioned oh yeah I talk about the suit that great check.

Jay Baer: Right, and so what you’re looking for is sort of a talk ability threshold of about 15 20% right if 15 or 20% of the people who experienced it in test.

Jay Baer: talked about it, then you’ve got something and then you roll it out to everybody in your in your home free but, but just sort of like hey here’s a fun idea let’s put into practice now there’s more science to it than that are there should be.

David Horsager: Great well there is a whole lot more on doctors in the book and I just love the idea of genuine word of mouth both.

David Horsager: offline especially and, of course, that can become genuine online, which is is a big deal today so talk triggers by Derek J Baron day no lemon I don’t always recommends booklet books like this, or hold them up like this, or show how i’ve tagged things over, like.

Jay Baer: Know Pack is on the cover so that’s What if.

David Horsager: you’re not watching that to talk to her.

David Horsager: alpacas there you go so um yeah I probably should have said I didn’t dog eared i’ll pack a.

Jay Baer: packet unit.

David Horsager: So let’s just touch briefly on on a couple other things, then.

David Horsager: target personally, we talked a lot about.

David Horsager: Leading yourself well you’ve been an advisor to so many others from political to business to everything else, what are you doing to lead yourself well.

Jay Baer: I think, especially in the pandemic times.

Jay Baer: A couple things one to sort of steering my team my organization through the beginning of that and and we actually.

Jay Baer: Other than the speaking side of the business, which is down a little bit, for obvious reasons we actually grew the business during the pandemic.

Jay Baer: From a consultant standpoint which we’re really proud of and kept the whole team intact and things are going, are going great there, but personally I think it’s just continuing to re examine.

Jay Baer: What what i’m what makes me happy and what makes other people happy about me and and maybe it’s age or maybe it’s pandemic, but not being afraid to make changes what changes need to be made.

Jay Baer: I think especially successful leaders can fall into a pattern of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it and you kind of get calcified in your beliefs and in your ways and in your systems because look it got me this far.

Jay Baer: And, and I certainly understand the attraction of that thinking, but it can also be dangerous, when the world is changing as fast as well as changing today to rely on what has happened in the past, is probably.

Jay Baer: put some blinders on that don’t need to be there, so so more than anything else Dave I think that’s it for me i’m really trying to keep my eyes open to doing everything differently if that’s what it requires.

David Horsager: Is that part of you know we’re we’re close friends and.

David Horsager: We you know you’ve had quite the changes in your life if we can go there, a little bit and have talked about those ahead of time.

David Horsager: You in the last basically year you’ve become empty nesters with your kids who are all off to college or beyond now first job for the oldest you’ve you’ve you’ve you’ve moved.

David Horsager: One place at least you’ve.

David Horsager: you’ve you’ve sold your presumably last big business sale, maybe I don’t know what what’s that.

Jay Baer: Well yeah.

David Horsager: You know you’ve had massive change and and challenge in the midst of this and you’ve been open about it in ways what, how is that change do as a leader, all these things and more.

Jay Baer: Well, i’ve always been pretty good at.

Jay Baer: compartmentalizing things and sort of handling a lot of things at once.

Jay Baer: More so from an activity standpoint less so from an emotional standpoint so yeah it’s been a super weird year i’ve lived 10 years in the last you know 10 months for sure.

Jay Baer: In a lot of ways, but, and I think all of us have at some level, because the pandemic and run circumstances but i’ll tell you what the what what all of this has done Dave is.

Jay Baer: put a cap on my own ambitions right somebody asked me today what’s what’s your number one lesson that fanatic, I said look I don’t need to be everything to everybody, every time and I certainly spent a lot of my career trying to make that happen trying to say yes to everybody and everything.

Jay Baer: And I realized that when you do that, you actually are robbing and only the people who you care about the most of time and attention and and.

Jay Baer: and love, but nobody gets all of you, at that point right and and even as a leader it’s not great, for your organization when everybody’s just getting sort of partial attention or or whatever you can squeeze in between meetings to help them or mentor them or what have you so.

Jay Baer: It sounds productive and simple, but there is some wisdom, I think, to doing less but doing it better.

David Horsager: We have we have a new phrase around here.

David Horsager: Just about margin these days margin covers a multitude of sins like when you actually have time for someone to look at them.

David Horsager: And, as you know, drivers like you’ve been in i’ve been it’s it can be a challenge to create it and, be it and live it and kind of when we feel like Oh, but we’re doing this work for the greater good right.

David Horsager: Right pausing.

David Horsager: Right, and I think i’m certainly i’m grateful because you brought a lot of wisdom not you know all the business of wisdom that you have but.

David Horsager: you’ve in the last couple years and, through this time brought a lot of wisdom just from balance and margin and leading well in the midst of challenge and i’m grateful for that thanks.

Jay Baer: I think it’s easy to fall into the trap that activity it’s a success metric.

David Horsager: Right totally.

Jay Baer: know that that that the quote unquote busier you are, the better you’re doing and.

Jay Baer: I don’t know that that correlation is as strong as we sometimes think it is.

David Horsager: Absolutely and that’s directly from a marketing guy that wants to see people are busy silicon marketing.

David Horsager: Right yeah yeah we are yeah here’s a funny here’s a funny scary Stat Forrester, has come out the report it said that.

Jay Baer: The number of marketing messages.

Jay Baer: Up 40% this year.

Jay Baer: 40% in one year would.

Jay Baer: Just you know nobody’s saying you know what I wish would happen, I wish I could get 40% more marketing messages as a customer right so.

Jay Baer: i’ve got a new a new keynote about that this idea that that customers are building a moat around their attention.

Jay Baer: So the talks, called the three drop bridges, how do I get the drawbridge just lowered and get access to your customers attention.

Jay Baer: Because we’re all besieged at all times by by messages and by this, and this is cheaper, and this is on netflix or whatever, and people are just like you know what unsubscribe delete ignore.

Jay Baer: Absolutely they’re just they’re building a moat right there just like going into the into the tortoise Shell and and you can’t.

Jay Baer: Talk about in this talk you can’t see demoted Castle right that’s why there’s a moat there you can just it’s not gonna it’s not gonna work.

Jay Baer: But you can get invited in right the drawbridge, and so this this whole idea of how do you get invited in when nobody actually wants to talk to you there’s a lot of trust lessons in that as well.

David Horsager: absolutely all right we’ve got something for next time.

David Horsager: There you go before we go to the last question what a treat it’s been Jay thanks for spending so much time, I know we said we’re shortening up our.

David Horsager: podcasts and we just.

Jay Baer: have been there’s been 500 episodes of my podcast I noticed like.

David Horsager: Oh, my goodness hey tell us where can we find out more about Jay or connect with you.

Jay Baer: super exciting i’ve got a new newsletter called the bare facts comes out every two weeks it combines customer experience lessons.

Jay Baer: statistic, you should know typically there’s a tequila review coming tequila collector there’s a life hack.

Jay Baer: And a bunch of other fun stuff So if you go to the bare facts COM BA er the bare facts COM, you can subscribe would love your attention.

Jay Baer: On that, and as I just alluded to, I also have a podcast it’s all about social media and big companies which may not be your thing but it’s probably the thing of somebody you know it’s called social pros nearly 500 episodes weekly since January of 2012 social pros podcast.

David Horsager: Social pros so you can find all of us, of course, in the show notes and we’ll get that all over the place, and we thank you Jay for being here hey it’s it’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Jay Baer: Who is a leader, that I trust, and why i’ll tell you what it’s actually ironic I just wrote about this in my newsletter last week, I actually really trust Ambassador from Delta.

Jay Baer: Delta, like all airlines have had a tough go with it operationally some of it is circumstantial some of it, I think, is you know, mismanagement, but it is what it is.

Jay Baer: But I pick brands, the same way I picked friends not based on how they do when times are good, but how they do when times are bad.

Jay Baer: And I think that’s the area where delta really separates themselves and ED separates himself as a leader, the communication that he sent a frequent flyers the the the true.

Jay Baer: Apologies that they have issued to their customers is such a contrast to how the rest of the airline industry is handled that I wrote a whole piece about it for the newsletter so, especially because it’s so top of mind for me i’ll say Ambassador from Delta.

David Horsager: I love it I can’t tell you how grateful I am that delta is my hub airline here in minneapolis that MSP because it’s there just you know you people can find something wrong somewhere, but circling yet overall they’re better and they it’s just it’s absolutely i’m grateful and.

Jay Baer: One of the many reasons you’ll never move right i’ll never exactly two reasons on the flight front right go 100 or 200 flights, a year is like from minneapolis I can get anywhere in the country in three hours.

David Horsager: yep so I don’t have time zone, the people in New York that killed themselves going to La.

David Horsager: And number two I Delta.

David Horsager: delta so.

Jay Baer: yeah if you live in Atlanta, you can.

Jay Baer: salt lake city could be a place, you can move, but the list is pretty sure yeah.

David Horsager: It is.

David Horsager: yeah but so anyway, well, it grateful for you grateful for dropping all this wisdom and mostly grateful for your friendship and thinking about you, as you keep on keeping on in this new phase of life in many.

David Horsager: ways and everybody knows you’re still speaking and you’re still out there.

David Horsager: and

Jay Baer: feeling great feeling great.

David Horsager: yep that’s awesome so that’s been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 49: Ty Bennett on The Power Of Partnership With Your People

In this episode, David sits down with Ty Bennett, Founder of Leadership Inc., Author, and Speaker, to discuss the power of partnership with your people.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Ty’s Bio:
Ty is the founder of Leadership Inc., a speaking and training company with a mission to empower individuals and organizations to challenge their status quo, cultivate exceptional relationships, and compete in extraordinary ways. He’s a husband and a father and he’s PASSIONATE about helping leaders cultivate the relevance and influence they need to challenge old ways and open new doors.

Ty’s Links:
Website: https://tybennett.com/
“Partnership Is The New Leadership” by Ty Bennett: https://amzn.to/2XOsUeC
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ty.bennett/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tybennett/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TyBennett
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tybennett/

Key Quotes:
1. “There’s never been a bigger need for inspiration.”
2. “People are committed to people.”
3. “The way you show up for your people impacts the way they show up for you.”
4. “People support what they help create.”
5. “Commitment happens at the point of creation.”
6. “If you’re the kind of leader that wants people’s feedback, you’re not just talking at people you’re talking with people.”
7. “The role of a leader is to clear the runway.”
8. “Business is about relationships.”
9. “Storytelling is the most underrated skill in business.”
10. “The more personal a story is the more powerful it becomes.”
11. “You don’t retell a story, you relive a story.”
12. “Failure is not a stopping point, it’s a stepping stone.”
13. “Fear is something to be explored.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Partnership Is The New Leadership” by Ty Bennett: https://amzn.to/2XOsUeC

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I’ve got a special guest today he had his brother built the company to 20 million in revenue in their 20s he’s been named as.

David Horsager: 40 under 40 and he’s almost turning 40 coming up here in just a few days now, but he has written four amazing books he’s got five kiddos and an amazing wife, he really thinks about whole leadership which I love.

David Horsager: As far as leading this family well faith friends and his business and even certainly an advisor and leader to others, welcome to the show Ty Bennett.

Ty Bennett: hey so good to be here with us that’s a fan, and this is fun.

Ty Bennett: thanks for having me.

David Horsager: yeah and grateful for you to you know, we have some pretty neat people and show, but to call your friend, and so this is this is going to be a specially front so tell us something else who don’t know about you what’s what’s.

David Horsager: what’s known as.

Ty Bennett: Well, five kids keeps you busy I mean you know what it’s like to we run after kids so i’ve got kids 15 down to one right now.

Ty Bennett: very active involved in soccer ninja warrior different things that we’re doing so.

Ty Bennett: Lots going on there, and you know, in the business space it’s kind of an interesting world you and I both are living in, while we’re all living in right.

Ty Bennett: Lots of live events virtual events hybrid events and just getting back with people has been amazing and something I missed for sure and.

Ty Bennett: But I think there’s never been a bigger need for inspiration and for people to understand.

Ty Bennett: How to move forward and and the importance of leadership and some of the things that we’ll talk about today i’m sure I just feel like there’s this huge desire and need for that with what our world is facing so i’m excited to be out there, sharing that message.

David Horsager: Well, I am so proud of how you lead yourself, and you know we see each other, a couple times a year at some things we were a part of together and certainly cross paths i’m going to jump into personal in a little bit, but i’m going to start macro I want to talk about two of your books.

David Horsager: Just to jump right in.

David Horsager: And then we’ll we’ll come back to some things that I think at the end they’ll be even more inspirational and powerful and get back to even that first company you built, but if we look at this.

David Horsager: i’m so interested in partnership is the new leadership, you know everything we talked about is trust everything we think about here is trust every you know.

David Horsager: Everything we believe you know kind of centers around trust, but there’s nothing like the word partnership to align with trust, give us a quick overview and I want to get into a couple ideas under that work.

Ty Bennett: yeah I think that it definitely aligns with your message i’m a huge fan of of all of your work and the idea, the trust is that currency that drives.

Ty Bennett: Relationships leadership business growth influence so I did a survey of 5000 leaders over a couple of years, asking them specifically one question.

Ty Bennett: And that was what do you want from your people right from a leadership perspective, what do you want.

Ty Bennett: And 76% of people came back and said that what they what they want is commitment.

Ty Bennett: which makes sense right the people work for me the people I work with I want commitment but then I took a step back and said Okay, then what drives commitment.

Ty Bennett: Because it’s not people aren’t committed to jobs, I mean statistically, you will hold over 30 jobs in your lifetime, if you graduate from college, this year, which is crazy when you think.

David Horsager: about all.

Ty Bennett: Of what drives commitment, more than anything else is people are committed to people, and so I truly believe that leadership.

Ty Bennett: it’s not about title it’s not about position it’s not about authority, I believe that the way you show up for your people impacts, the way they show up for you.

Ty Bennett: And this idea of partnership, being the new leadership it’s it’s the approach of the most relevant leaders in today’s world it’s what.

Ty Bennett: The kind of leadership that gets the most out of your people it’s the great differentiator within organizations right because.

Ty Bennett: All of us need our people to show up at a higher level to compete and to be competitive in our space, and so I think that it’s a mindset I think it’s an approach but there’s some practical application as i’ve studied it out in terms of how these leaders lead effectively.

David Horsager: What do they do, because you can think about this well can say we’re partners, but you own the company, you can say we’re partners, but this you can say we’re putting you know So how do we.

David Horsager: How do we kind of enlist that encourage that create that what are some things we can do.

Ty Bennett: Absolutely i’ll give you just a couple of ideas, I mean one I think they’re very good partner leaders are very good at building genuine relationships with their people I think they know them I think they.

Ty Bennett: care about them, I think they invest in them, I think those relationships are solid and because of that their people will show up and invest in them right though reciprocate that.

Ty Bennett: I think that when you leave from a partnership perspective everyone on your team has a voice i’m a big believer that people support what they helped create.

Ty Bennett: And that doesn’t mean that within an organization structurally every person is involved in every decision because that’s not feasible.

Ty Bennett: But what I often ask leaders is do your people feel heard.

Ty Bennett: Because if we believe that commitment happens at the point of implementation we missed the boat right commitment happens at the point of creation when your people feel like.

Ty Bennett: Their voice matters that they’re an actual partner that people listen that people care that people take their their ideas and do something with it then you’re getting more out of them because they understand that they’re that they’re being heard and that that’s important.

David Horsager: So I want, I want to jump into that one little bit you might have some other ideas but.

David Horsager: That let’s get even granular, how do you listen to, how do you actually do that, like Okay, how do they feel hurt like is that um.

David Horsager: What what does a meeting look like what does a day look like what is the leader, do they walk in and they you know interrupt them, I mean some things can be like what is something good they could do to you know enlist this commitment and show it.

Ty Bennett: To them for sure i’ll give you an example on that the reality is the higher you go and leadership, the harder this becomes, the more strategic you need to be in doing it.

Ty Bennett: One of my clients is USA down in San Antonio and their mortgage company was run just up until recently by a gentleman named Winston everybody just referred to as Winston I don’t even know his last name.

Ty Bennett: But one of the things he did is every once a week he did what was called a lunch with Winston.

Ty Bennett: where he invited five people on his team five different leaders, these are like supervisor level leaders.

Ty Bennett: And at lunch she didn’t eat they did, and he just sat down, he said, and he had a pen and a paper and he said, give me your thoughts what needs to change what what are your ideas, if you.

Ty Bennett: What are your struggles, what are the roadblocks if you were in my shoes, what do I need to be thinking about and he would take notes, I listened to him report two different times when I spoke for them once he said.

Ty Bennett: at those lunch with winston’s we we have identified 120 tangible ideas and we have corrected or fixed or move forward with 105 of those the restaurant process.

Ty Bennett: The next time the number was even greater but I sat there and watched 400 leaders look at the, the President of their associate or their organization.

Ty Bennett: And i’m sitting there going if you sat down with your President, and you gave him an idea, and then you see it being implemented and all of those ideas are.

Ty Bennett: Do they feel engaged absolutely right so that’s just a simple example of how a leader at a very high level is doing that it has to be on purpose, it has to be strategic.

Ty Bennett: Now i’ve seen it in other ways i’ve seen companies.

Ty Bennett: A Credit Union here in utah that I was working with they are moving office buildings and they set up basically like a trade show for all their people to come through and vote on.

Ty Bennett: office furniture and look and feel of the new office just that kind of involvement, you have some kind of, say, and.

Ty Bennett: Then, when you show up and the walls are blue and that’s what you want us you feel like it empowered a little bit right, I mean those are simple things, but the mentality, I think, then, plays out in every meeting.

Ty Bennett: right if you’re the kind of LEADER that wants people’s feedback you’re not just talking at people you’re talking with people.

Ty Bennett: And so, when you start to understand that, from a principal standpoint, it plays out every in every interaction, you probably have.

David Horsager: and love it anything else you any one last tip under partnership as the new.

Ty Bennett: Is the new leadership, you know one thing that I think I teach around this idea that seems to be kind of an Aha moment is.

Ty Bennett: I think that partner leaders know that motivation is important but it’s overrated and what I mean by that is.

Ty Bennett: I mean it’s easy to think about leadership is motivation right you’re you cheer people on you, Tom good job you you encourage them and that’s important.

Ty Bennett: But on the other side, the more important piece is that our job as leaders is to get in the trenches and remove obstacles and inhibitors.

Ty Bennett: And when we do that, first, then that motivation becomes much more effective right, because if somebody is just running into the wall cheering them on doesn’t help them in any way up.

Ty Bennett: And so really understanding the role of a leader is to clear the runway is to open up the opportunity for them to run forward and to be successful, what they do I think partner leaders do that extremely well.

David Horsager: I love it, you know you made me think of you know, I remember caribou coffee is one of the big.

David Horsager: In fact, in the 2000s of move to number two to starbucks at a great run there’s several things that happened there, but one of the things.

David Horsager: The CIO when I talked to him at that time, so they did is they listened well to that frontline barista so that’s why.

David Horsager: you’ll see napkins that say you know thanks a latte or these different statements and a lot of those came from those.

David Horsager: front line, a lot of the ideas that happened at least in a period of time came from frontline brewer he says that they were they had a feedback way to getting it to corporate and listening and implementing and I think you know.

David Horsager: that’s a that’s something we could all learn from because a lot of times the feet on the ground in the front, they know the best that’s why.

David Horsager: I was just noticing what we’re working with a global pharmaceutical and we.

David Horsager: You know use this enterprise trust index to survey people, and I can think in many organizations, people are over surveyed.

David Horsager: But when you give people a space to give feedback up many times that survey will give an idea that is gold that they changed that one little thing and it starts to change everything so.

David Horsager: Thinking of these ways um you know I think it’s really interesting you know actually before I moved from this, I want to ask just a macro question on this, are there any things you’re seeing.

David Horsager: For this partnership that a business owner should think about as far as structurally whether that’s you know.

David Horsager: You know how the companies, we want to be corpse now we want to have employee owned, we want to Are there things that are you know, there are challenges with each of those from both.

Ty Bennett: For sure.

David Horsager: Government tax issues and everything else.

David Horsager: But i’ve even thought of could we go employee owned you know, so what what is that does that really work or are there, better ways to deal with it, what do you think.

Ty Bennett: You know i’ve seen it at the positive and negatives, I think of all of those and I think there’s an argument to be made in each of those I have a good friend to.

Ty Bennett: Transition his company to a B corp and watch watch that process and it’s not without challenge right there’s there’s definite benefit to it.

Ty Bennett: I don’t know that I have a set you know, this is the way every company should be, because I think every company is going to be a little bit different.

Ty Bennett: I believe that the mentality is is the biggest piece now whether you give actual ownership to every person as a physical.

Ty Bennett: partner who has you know skin in the game, or we just help them mentally understand that.

Ty Bennett: We want them to take ownership and we want them to feel like they have full involvement and full engagement and that they’re.

Ty Bennett: they’re valued, you know I know I don’t know that there’s a set answer for that one, at least from my opinion because I could give you examples of pros and cons of probably both right and I.

Ty Bennett: had to.

Ty Bennett: And so you know I think if depending on you know your company or any other company if they feel like that’s the best way to go and they’re in a position to do it, I think that’s an awesome thing.

Ty Bennett: Because ownership it’s hard to just instill if you can actually put it in place, then you know you’ve got something there.

David Horsager: You got successful early on, I mean in your 20s you and your brother, creating this Christmas $20 million annual revenue company, what was the biggest learning.

David Horsager: meet a lot of people that have success early i’ve seen you still flourish a lot of people it’s not the best thing for him.

Ty Bennett: Well, so it’s interesting and I think there’s several lessons that I learned and I i’ve thought about I mean obviously there’s lessons along the way.

Ty Bennett: But I think, starting at such a young age, there were certain things that were obvious to me.

Ty Bennett: For example, one that I was just young enough and just dumb enough I realized, I have a lot to learn, and I will constantly have a lot to learn.

Ty Bennett: And so understanding that that mentality always needed to be there to be hungry to be constantly in the growth process, otherwise you’re you’re dying right yeah.

Ty Bennett: I I recognize the businesses about relationships and the importance of that.

Ty Bennett: And that businesses long term I didn’t want to make short sighted decisions, because the reality is i’m i’m young, I want to be in business for the next 50 plus years and have people.

Ty Bennett: see me as somebody they want to do business with as somebody has a good reputation I didn’t want to hurt that, and so I didn’t want to make any short sighted decisions that way, and so there, there are lots of things that way, but I feel like.

Ty Bennett: The mentality, you know coming into at a young age, actually served me well, because I could recognize certain areas that I didn’t have it figured out and and I still don’t I still you know and learning along the way, and you know we’ve had some good success, but I think that.

Ty Bennett: recognizing that it’s a constant process, I mean think about how much our world has changed in the last 18 months right, I mean and it’s and principles haven’t changed right, I wrote this book partnership is the new leadership before code.

Ty Bennett: But there’s different application now and even probably more need for certain principles now than there were and so understanding, some of those things and and what people are really dealing with and.

Ty Bennett: learning how to have those conversations, where you start to understand the needs fears and victories of people and and where you can serve and where you can add value, I think.

Ty Bennett: For me that’s that’s a constant process I don’t I don’t feel like it’s anything i’ve figured out and have achieved because, once you do, then you know you you’re behind already south or.

Ty Bennett: dying yeah.

David Horsager: let’s talk about another one of your books, because we believe in it, so much the power of storytelling we.

David Horsager: You know, in our it’s one of the key ways we talked about building the connection pillar of trust it’s it’s something actually when people get certified as certified partners are coaches are facilitators and trust that we have a whole process on mining stories.

David Horsager: that are relevant not being the hero of your own story, and also of of using stories because stories make it sticky yes, we still like data, yes, we want to back things by research but stories have been used for you know centuries.

David Horsager: millennia, to simplify the complex to connect with people to to to engage people to move them forward and actually to build trust, but tell us a glimpse of the power of storytelling in your perspective.

Ty Bennett: So just one thought that came to mind when you said that.

Ty Bennett: i’ve used this quote, and this is a really a weird morbid quote but it’s going to stick with you so Joseph Stalin, the dictator yep yep he said something that is really disgusting but also very true, he said, the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic.

Ty Bennett: hmm think about that for a minute.

Ty Bennett: So I just think about the work that you do, because I share this idea with so many people who share statistics you have incredible data.

Ty Bennett: But emotionally we don’t connect with data, the same way as we do a story, and so, if we can take data and then synthesize it with.

Ty Bennett: One application story that becomes very real and it becomes emotionally tangible right, something that we can act on something we connect with and so.

Ty Bennett: You know I I wrote the book, the power of storytelling because, for me, as we were building our sales organization, I found that stories were an incredible way to connect this was just a personal Aha.

Ty Bennett: Literally as I listened I recorded every presentation, I gave all the sales presentations I tried to eliminate and all these filler words, as I did that.

Ty Bennett: But I started asking the question what caused people to engage and inevitably it was when I was telling stories they laughed more they asked more questions they engaged.

Ty Bennett: And so I went that’s crucial I got it I need to get better at that, and so I started practicing it and getting better at it.

Ty Bennett: And then I started teaching our internal sales team, some of these ideas and techniques and then, as I started speaking.

Ty Bennett: My bent is as a storyteller right I tell a lot of stories and people would ask me how to coach me on presentation skills or storytelling, and so I flushed it out to the power of storytelling.

Ty Bennett: to teach it as a skill, I mean there’s so many ways we could go with the but i’ll just give you one simple idea.

Ty Bennett: I think every influential story follows a simple pattern, and that has struggled to solution.

Ty Bennett: So the idea is that you hope people with the struggle you help them with the solution right there’s something in our bodies in our DNA that we respond to struggle, the conflict of challenge.

Ty Bennett: It naturally engages us and the problem is often in business, we tell solution to solution stories.

Ty Bennett: And we think about a business story, most of them sound the same we say you know what we’re great and we’ve always been great and will always be great, and if you work with us that’d be great right, I mean and what’s engaging about that.

Ty Bennett: And so being real and vulnerable and hitting on that struggle that you solve right, I mean David you solve huge struggles for people and showing them.

Ty Bennett: I know what you’re dealing with and here’s a path forward that’s the kind of story that serves people and really becomes something that’s effective it requires a level of vulnerability, it requires a level of.

Ty Bennett: You know intro introspection to understand some of those things, but I love that you teach you know your facilitators how to mine those stories because I get that question all the time I.

Ty Bennett: find these stories well how do you come up with them and.

Ty Bennett: And to me they’re everywhere, I mean just all the time you’re seeing stories pop up all over the place, and so part of its just being aware and recognizing that you know you need some of those but.

Ty Bennett: yeah I think stories service so well, I believe that storytelling is the most underrated skill in business.

David Horsager: Absolutely, I think it just like Buffett said something like the number one skill is is basically being able to communicate or speak actually to speak right so.

David Horsager: That that has something to do that two things came to mind one is in our business, I can remember this, you know when I started my trust work.

David Horsager: i’m passionate about this as i’m seeing this like you know here’s the research trust affects the bottom line it’s all these things until I took and you hear me today i’ll give a touch of the research, like in an hour keynote you know, two minutes.

David Horsager: But i’ll just simply give three quick analogies like well if you don’t think it’s kind of like they became many stories actually this one used to be a big story about a lock and all sudden it just became.

David Horsager: Think of a lock it’s a representation of lack of trust, think about what the cost is I gotta buy the lock and i’ve got to.

David Horsager: But the bigger cost is now going to open it every time I go through the gate and that’s a cost of time, and I can say, all the other cross, but all sudden in a simple visual almost a story that one’s a mini mini story.

David Horsager: an analogy, but that came from a big long story, but if three of those little stories like.

David Horsager: hey ready to text to someone you trust now ready to Texas, and when you don’t trust How long does that take I mean Oh, I get it, you know it’s like.

David Horsager: That little cost, and then we have to have some some longer stickier ones, but I just saw the critical this of simplifying the complex story I think Lou.

David Horsager: gerstner at IBM, he said, you go to these earnings calls with IBM like you can’t tell everything you can’t say everything so here’s why we do so well, I can tell us good story.

David Horsager: So.

Ty Bennett: yeah I think I think great communicators like you said, make complex ideas very simple stories and metaphors are probably two of your best you know tools to be able to do that and.

Ty Bennett: You know i’ve heard you speak you do that incredibly well and to take that amount of data and research and make it tangible make it something that I can grab on to and use stories are one of the best ways, you can do that.

David Horsager: makes it relevant to use your.

David Horsager: yeah your town.

David Horsager: 111 quote that came to mind, just as you were talking also and partly with the was it stolen stolen.

David Horsager: We don’t use quote Stalin and interesting.

David Horsager: So i’m back when I was really learning to speak in one thing we’re we’re similar I think in like this get better be find coaches find mentors whether it’s for from was for me for research, for marriage for health.

David Horsager: or for speaking and you and i’ve had a lot of coaches and a lot of mentors in that, but I remember.

David Horsager: Over 20 years ago now, the he was the head of imagineering at Disney said, David.

David Horsager: You kind of took me under his wing a little bit about about speaking and training and and what we’re doing, he said and.

David Horsager: As you know, you know i’ve taken I never want to be a stand up comic i’ve taken stand up comedy i’ve taken improv i’ve taken all these things, just to be able to.

David Horsager: transfer, an idea that i’m passionate about better right and but one of the things he had me do is he said, David you’ve got to go.

David Horsager: To the national storytelling festival in jonesboro Tennessee and watch and watch these storytellers and.

David Horsager: It was unbelievable and you know in this tiny little town in Tennessee thousands and thousands of people show up for this little time that you can’t.

David Horsager: Because they don’t have the infrastructure for IT you got to stay 100 miles away just to go in each day practically but one quote that came to mind and i’ll never forget it.

David Horsager: Going there’s a little storytelling museum and the town is known for storage is just a quaint beautiful little place and it the quote was something if I can get it almost exact was perhaps if we knew everyone stories, there would be no more war.

David Horsager: And I think it ties back a little bit to what you said you what you’re you’re stalling quote not gonna let that go.

David Horsager: You know if we know everybody’s individual stories it’s not a statistic, you know you know this statistic all these people are dying all this has happened, if I know that one that matters right.

David Horsager: As speakers, we could start to make make fun of the starfish story here but but there’s truth to it right so.

Ty Bennett: it’s why it’s stood the test of time like we’re all sick of it, and you know we think because it’s it’s not unique it’s not our own which just brings up a an interesting thought around storytelling, and that is that the more personal story is the more powerful it becomes because I can’t.

Ty Bennett: When you start to share a story and I go i’ve heard this one like it, I automatically check out.

Ty Bennett: But if you’re sharing your own experience, like that’s uniquely yours, no one else can share that nobody else has nobody shares it with the same passion, I believe that you don’t retell a story you relive a story.

Ty Bennett: And when you relive a story if it’s yours you relive you bring emotion back into it and you share it with that unique passion, because you that’s something that impacted your life and therefore you create a better experience for the user who’s listening as well, a little bit.

David Horsager: let’s get personal for a little bit you know I found at least in all my interviews and just watching and walking by leaders that I do like and trust that do really believe in.

David Horsager: As you know, there are people that look a certain way to onstage in a certain way off stage i’m talking about ones that.

David Horsager: are different than that they seem to lead themselves well and, though in perfectly each of us, they do some maybe they have routines or habits that help them lead themselves well, what do you, what do you do to lead yourself well, so you can influence so many others.

Ty Bennett: So yeah I mean I I am somebody who.

Ty Bennett: I don’t I don’t tend to ever really run out of energy and so i’m i’m going most of the time right like I I just will keep moving forward.

Ty Bennett: So you know if you look at this morning, you know we’re doing this it’s eight in the morning, my time when we started.

Ty Bennett: I got up at six I went and ran with my boys got in a workout with them, then had some time that I did some personal reading.

Ty Bennett: As a family, we, as the kids were getting going we do some scripture study and some things as a family every morning before everybody gets off, and you know say prayers together and get all the kids going and move that forward.

Ty Bennett: that’s a pretty normal routine like those things happen for me I time for personal development, find time for family development.

Ty Bennett: The physical piece, you know I mean you and i’ve talked about that I was actually impacted quite a bit by you.

Ty Bennett: We have lunch, maybe a year or two ago, you were in salt lake and you would just lost some weight like it was evident to me.

Ty Bennett: When we got together and you just made the point that one of your jobs, specifically was staying healthy right and being in shape and being fit.

Ty Bennett: which you know, and what we do with the amount of travel with the amount of stage time and that kind of thing that becomes an important piece, and looking at it as a job, like which I look at.

Ty Bennett: Like my own personal development reading is part of my job because i’m looked at as a thought leader, how can I have that be part of my job right.

David Horsager: We talked about this yesterday as a team, we heard a new team Member and we said.

David Horsager: One of the things, and there are many things with our work, not just David speaking and training, all that than writing books and whatever it’s also the.

David Horsager: Enterprise trust index it’s also the consulting and coaching certification work but, for me, we talked about how david’s five jobs.

David Horsager: If five key jobs these you know and and one of them like you said it, you know, one of them is.

David Horsager: On content it’s it’s that study piece I you and I both i’m going to just share two of them, because they’re so relevant to what you said, one of them is that that content piece you and i’ve seen people that.

David Horsager: are saying the same thing they were 25 years ago.

David Horsager: yeah and you and i’ve also seen people that have finished well or are finishing well that people are staying fresh and relevant that the Ken blanchard of the world, but the people that are there they’re not.

David Horsager: They make believe the old principles still, of course, but they’re saying and a relevant right.

David Horsager: Now so.

David Horsager: I feel like that’s a big deal, I can tell, I can’t even tell when i’m super fresh or not right by I got too busy there, I was, whatever the other thing is yes, the number, the fifth.

David Horsager: Truth for me as well well the the team comes into offices and the team’s kind of our schedule is pretty much eight to five ish you know.

David Horsager: Because i’m flying late or getting up early or doing this or that or whatever it is, I can come in late and have worked out, and that is part of my job.

David Horsager: Because the fifth piece, for me, is healthy heart and home.

David Horsager: And that’s every that’s my part of my job description to keep a healthy heart and home because if you’re flying to Dubai and speaking of this event, and I was telling us to you know one time I.

David Horsager: got in the Nairobi at midnight spoke every day for a week and flew out, I mean you, you know or train or worked with government officials or whatever you have I learned in a doctor, you know motivated me to.

David Horsager: If you want to be doing this you’ve got to stay super healthy and, by the way, it’s a little easier for you under 40 I would say so.

Ty Bennett: hey yeah here we.

David Horsager: Give me those habits.

David Horsager: keep those habits.

Ty Bennett: yeah.

David Horsager: I love it so um any yeah I love the routine that’s a great simple routine I think some people have such complex ones it’s like hey I get up I go work out.

David Horsager: I have this personal input time and then I have this family and faith time and I think that’s a that’s a that’d be a good start for a lot of people.

Ty Bennett: yeah yeah and you know I mean some days are different than others right i’m on the road different but prioritizing those things.

Ty Bennett: I can’t tell you how many times I have been standing in the middle of the airport.

Ty Bennett: Listening to or reading scriptures or saying prayers with my family because that’s a priority in our family right, I mean i’m going to do their own things, but in the morning at night that’s something that we do.

Ty Bennett: You know my wife and I have our own things that we do to talk and connect and and you know grow together.

Ty Bennett: On a daily basis and and the reality is when we get off on those things right when those things aren’t consistent.

Ty Bennett: It throws everything off right and so there’s some some of those things that we’ve committed to be consistent, on personally as a couple as a family and those things are prioritized.

Ty Bennett: above everything else in the fact that we make sure they happen right they might happen in a weird way.

Ty Bennett: Sometimes literally like my wife is reading something to me that we’re supposed to be reading and i’m like sitting on an airplane not supposed to be on my felt like it, but we’re going to make it happen we’re going to figure out how to do it.

David Horsager: So let’s talk about home leadership, and especially of your kids this has been a fun journey to watch you’ve got some amazing ninja warriors.

David Horsager: You know and you’ve created you’ve taken your whole home and outside and everything and create this space, I think others even now come and go to your.

David Horsager: Your what ninja gym.

Ty Bennett: yeah yeah it’s kind of crazy what and.

David Horsager: Now you’re even speaking about this.

David Horsager: Right you’re one of your I saw one of your newer talks that you’re talking about is the ninja mindset.

Ty Bennett: So.

David Horsager: But let’s talk about this journey with your kids because I think it’s a it’s a fun one.

Ty Bennett: Give us a 10 minute spirit so.

Ty Bennett: My so my oldest daughter she plays soccer in great and there’s awesome lessons there and then my next three kids specifically my two boys that are now 12 and 11.

Ty Bennett: They found the show American ninja warrior they became obsessed and started getting into it started training taking classes competing became very, very good.

Ty Bennett: The long story short of that is they’re both you know top five nationally ranked ninjas.

Ty Bennett: One of my son’s true is just been on the show American ninja warrior junior which comes out on peacock starting next week.

Ty Bennett: And so, his you’ll see him on that if you watch that show coming up and.

Ty Bennett: So yeah we’ve built all sorts obstacles in our backyard, we took the basketball court which was my passion and that went out the window because that’s what happens when you have kids it becomes their passion right.

Ty Bennett: And we built this big ninja gym and you know, in the back and and my kids are little entrepreneurs, because they don’t know how else to think and.

Ty Bennett: So they teach classes and you know can kind of support their habit this way because we literally travel all over the country you know for ninja competitions and things like that, and so.

Ty Bennett: they’re paying for all this because they teach classes every week and have you know 50 kids that show up, and you know pay 10 bucks an hour to come and be in their classes and learn from them, and you know it’s pretty cool to watch.

Ty Bennett: But the reason i’ve started speaking on is because I i’ve jumped in and coaching them, and there are so many incredible lessons in the sport, I mean.

Ty Bennett: You are dealing with fear constantly you are dealing with constant failure, I mean you think about like they see a new obstacle, and they will fail it.

Ty Bennett: For hours and hours and hours to finally figure this thing out to crack the code on it right and so understanding that failure is not.

Ty Bennett: The stopping point it’s a stepping stone like I mean just it’s about growth it’s locking progress every single time I mean it’s literally last night I was given a speech, and we were talking about.

Ty Bennett: Just training partners part of why I think my boys have become so good, is because it they trained together and then our next door neighbor who’s.

Ty Bennett: It was also a nationally ranked ninja the three of them trained together and they push each other, and you know.

Ty Bennett: You get better when you’re around high performers you it is stretches you and and one of them unlocks a skill and all sudden everybody else has to do it, too, and so I just think there’s some awesome lessons, you know.

David Horsager: i’ve got one for you, I think everybody’s dealt with this they’ve got somebody it could be their kid it could be their employee, it could be somebody else that’s afraid of something.

Ty Bennett: know for sure.

David Horsager: So how do you it’s one thing to tell there’s a lot of books written on how do I overcome fear i’ve got you know some some people know about my drowning accident and stuck underwater for whatever, even though I was life garden, and whatever and.

David Horsager: And it’s made me claustrophobic to some degree, for the last 20 years but how do you coach someone else to overcome fear, because I don’t.

David Horsager: need to say okay just do it Come on, you know there’s there’s a mindset of well if you just face your fears when I have seen that backfire big time tell what do you, what do you.

David Horsager: How do you coach someone.

David Horsager: On in the midst of fear.

Ty Bennett: yeah, so I think there’s a couple of things, but I also think its individual right I think about my boys and I coach both of them differently.

Ty Bennett: Because they’re very different personalities, one of them, I can get in his face and he responds to the other one that he crumbles like that’s not effective there right.

Ty Bennett: But I think there’s a couple things I mean giving voice to your fear saying it out loud writing it down like understanding what it is.

Ty Bennett: It there’s something cathartic about that just to simply go Okay, I am afraid i’m afraid of this.

Ty Bennett: Then approaching it with curiosity asking some of those questions right it’s not as effective for me to say you don’t need to be afraid of that.

Ty Bennett: But asking the question of Okay, what are you truly afraid of right here, what are the consequences of this what, what do you where do you feel that in your body, what does that feel like.

Ty Bennett: What how’s that manifesting just some of those types of things, I do think there are times that you do just have to kind of jump into it.

Ty Bennett: But it’s not every time right, I mean the way that we process fear we kind of have to figure out what makes sense and how we manage through that.

Ty Bennett: But fears real you know, last week I was speaking for the Florida realtors association.

Ty Bennett: And these are all you know realtors that are entrepreneurs and we’re having this conversation and I bring up these ideas we talked about fear failure and focus and when I talked about fear.

Ty Bennett: And started asking him questions about it, what holds them back and what they’re afraid of, I mean these people are in tears sharing.

Ty Bennett: what’s stopping them in their careers, right now, one lady shared you know what it’s about it’s embarrassment.

Ty Bennett: I cannot even fathom being embarrassed I don’t want to put myself out there, because I don’t want to look stupid like we all have certain fears that are are stopping us in different ways, and so.

Ty Bennett: Understanding those gives us a leg up right, I mean, instead of just kind of going Okay, we typically just kind of walk away from it and don’t explore it and I think fear is something to be explored.

David Horsager: I just a couple more questions I know we got to land the plane here there’s so much fun and so much we could talk about but.

David Horsager: i’m interested in something these days, a lot, and that is curious questions you know what i’ve noticed, you said something about you had to ask the questions.

David Horsager: And let’s even jump off a fear, but take leadership which you’re an expert in as a whole i’ve noticed in the Boards that I sit on.

David Horsager: In the leadership teams that I work with really many of the best at least strategic thinkers are just brilliant at asking great questions, what are a couple of your favorite questions or even one if you have one maybe it’s for for something specific maybe it’s just as a leader.

Ty Bennett: I agree, I think I think asking questions is a skill set I think it’s something that can and needs to be developed, I think that.

Ty Bennett: For me, I I observed and continue to observe great leaders, where I go like that’s who’s leading this conversation it’s not the person talking it’s person asking the right questions.

Ty Bennett: undeniable love one one question that I always come back to is the question after the question I think we asked great questions, sometimes when we hear what we want to hear, and then we just jump on it.

Ty Bennett: But just a little bit deeper like that’s interesting tell me more about that unpack that just a little bit more just that that second, maybe even third chance.

Ty Bennett: To flush it out before just being responsive before running with an idea, I think that, often, when we will do that we get the deeper meaning behind something, and not just the the cliche idea that we were looking for.

David Horsager: Is the big problem with that, and that is, it takes patience.

Ty Bennett: Which is yours often don’t have right actually i’m i’m.

David Horsager: A recovering impatient, I mean that’s that’s a big.

David Horsager: Big challenges.

David Horsager: Do that every day in myself.

David Horsager: You know your driver there’s a God given gift and moving things forward in the midst of immense challenge, but that has to be balanced with patients and pause and curiosity and i’m enjoying and not always enjoying learning a lot about back still today so.

Ty Bennett: At the process.

David Horsager: hey what’s left for type better you got a whole lot of life left what’s one thing you’re hoping for down the road still.

Ty Bennett: You know I I love.

Ty Bennett: So writing is such a good process for me, but I love speaking like truly love speaking being in front of an audience there’s nothing better than that in the entire world, to me, and so.

Ty Bennett: that’s something I plan on doing hopefully forever, you know and and want to continue to connect with audiences and make an impact and.

Ty Bennett: I truly love that there’s other things that i’m going to do in terms of investments and other things like that and.

Ty Bennett: You know we’ll see for my kids I mean literally my boys and I think they’re on track, you know, want to.

Ty Bennett: be part of this American enjoy our junior show and then be some of those early teens that get on the adult show and have a chance to win a million bucks we’ll see what that ever turns into.

Ty Bennett: But the thing that I love about all of this is the LIFE lessons that is teaching is they’re starting to understand how to drive themselves they’re starting to understand these principles behind it and.

Ty Bennett: More than anything, what I love, about the fact that i’m taking those principles and making it into a speech and content is that they’re.

Ty Bennett: Seeing that and understanding that content so it’s not just they’re living it, but they can step out of it and go oh that’s true we are learning about growth and how to push through and.

Ty Bennett: You know, and I actually have my boys, as part of you know, some of those keynotes and and so that piece of it, involving my family as they get older, you know your kids are a little older than mine and.

Ty Bennett: These stages, where they can be part of some of those things that’s the coolest thing in the world to me.

David Horsager: it’s really great I think I mentor of mine said, you know give your kids experiences not stuff.

David Horsager: yeah I was thinking in some of our work in in East Africa they’ve been I think most of them to the Indian Ocean more than the Pacific Atlantic.

David Horsager: Well, and I just think if you can I mean we all have different things we can give our kids but in our space, how do we do anything with and, as you know it with both of us flying out quite a bit, how do we bring them in on this and.

David Horsager: It is interesting as they grow up how that can change so that’s awesome I got one last question for you, before I do it hey where can everybody find the most about you, if they’re interested in the books, the speaking, or just connecting.

Ty Bennett: yeah ty Bennett calm just my name, and you can find me on any social media, by the same name so pretty easy to find I think we’re not a lot of other type benefits out there, trying to do what i’m doing so yeah i’d love to connect with anybody.

David Horsager: that’s awesome day for Horsager, David Horsager also has that that that that benefit of not many out there.

David Horsager: That name, the problem with that name is.

David Horsager: Be people being able to spell it right, so all right type any.com all of this will be in the show notes and more so check out the show notes last question ty it’s the trusted leader show who’s the Leader you trust and why.

Ty Bennett: So the person who came to mind, for me, is not somebody that most people would know mentor mind name Ulysses Suarez he’s Brazilian is a spiritual leader, for me, and the reason I trust him is why i’ve known him for 21 years now.

Ty Bennett: He has invested in me in unique and personal ways his time his understanding he’s mentored.

Ty Bennett: But i’ve also never, never seen him not live his values i’ve never seen him.

Ty Bennett: be hypocritical or contradict you know what he professes to be he’s live that.

Ty Bennett: and continues to live that and i’ve seen him give more of himself to other people than most people would even say you should.

Ty Bennett: And because of that he’s loved and admired and revered for that so yeah I trust him with my life, you know if he called me.

Ty Bennett: And I talked to leaders about this idea of investing in people and and what that means I mean if he called me today and said ty I need you to sell your House and you know come help me with that, like.

Ty Bennett: There would be no hesitation in some of those things right, because some people we just hold in that regard and and I think that those are the things that we need to be doing as leaders, you know for other people.

Ty Bennett: love it.

David Horsager: check out the show notes check out Ty Bennett, Ty this has been a privilege thanks for being on sharing your wisdom thanks for being my friend thanks for the great work you’re doing around the world and that’s been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 48: Deborah Coviello on The 7 Compass Points To Get You Back On Track

In this episode, David sits down with Deborah Coviello, Founder of Illumination Partners, Author, and Host of The Drop In CEO podcast, to discuss the 7 compass points to get you back on track.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Deborah’s Bio:
Deb Coviello is the Founder of Illumination Partners and the host of The Drop In CEO podcast. For more than twenty years, she has been transforming businesses from within, elevating the talents of their organizations to new performance levels. Her experience has taught her to put tremendous value on people, whom she considers as the heart of every business.

When hiring a consultant, Deb knows that the primary goal will always be a resolution to a problem. As The Drop In CEO Deb provides her clients with 25+ years worth of experience and strategy in Quality and Operational Excellence roles combined with her 20 years in the Flavors and Fragrance industry, to identify, assess, and solve the issues that are preventing their business growth. Certified as Lean and Six Sigma Blackbelt in Process Improvement, she has also developed significant leadership insight that “People’’ are your greatest tool in your toolbox. In order to deliver on her promise of offering “peace of mind,” she focuses on utilizing the talents of her client’s team and elevating them to new levels of performance, setting them up to better serve their organization.

When she isn’t transforming businesses from within, Deb is a board member of Women in Flavor & Fragrance Commerce, (WFFC), an avid Curler with the Cincinnati Curling Club, a mother of 3 and resides in Cincinnati Ohio with her Husband Dan of 32 years.

Deborah’s Links:
Website: https://dropinceo.com
“The CEO’s Compass” by Deborah A. Coviello: https://amzn.to/3At4jdo
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahacoviello/
Drop in CEO Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-drop-in-ceo/id1498953914?ls=1
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/IlluminationPartnersLLC/
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/DropinCEO
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dropinceo

Key Quotes:
1. “We have to stop being results oriented.”
2. “A leader needs a compass.”
3. “True north is peace of mind.”
4. “The solution to most of your problems are within and quite inexpensive.”
5. “Pride is the intersection of your humanity and intellectual property.”
6. “Invest in the people. They’re going to take care of you.”
7. “Feedback is such a negative experience.”
8. “Feedback is a gift when you do it in the right way.”
9. “It’s really about the human.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“The CEO’s Compass” by Deborah A. Coviello: https://amzn.to/3At4jdo
“The Long Game” by Dorie Clark: https://amzn.to/3EwRUaG

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager and i’ve got a special guest today a relatively new friend, but we hit it off and her name is Deborah Coviello.

Deborah Coviello: Thanks for.

David Horsager: Being on Deborah.

Deborah Coviello: A day Thank you so much for the opportunity, I look forward to having this conversation and your audience listening.

David Horsager: Yes, and your work aligns a whole lot with what we do at trusted leadership Institute and all the work we do around creating trusted leaders.

David Horsager: Deborah is the founder of illumination partners, she comes out of a whole list of accolades and experience in quality and so.

David Horsager: She also is the host of dropping CEO podcast that’s where I met thanks for the invite and that’s been fun.

David Horsager: she’s author of the brand new book the CEOs compass so we’re going to get into some of this and there’s going to be something for everyone today but Deborah thanks again for being here.

Deborah Coviello: My pleasure can’t wait to have this conversation and looking forward to sharing a bit about the CEOs campus.

David Horsager: I can’t wait so tell us something not on your resume.

Deborah Coviello: Oh wow you start with the hard ones, but you know what it’s important to get to know the person, I am a 2017 silver medalist in arena national curling so I curl throw stones on ice sweep real heart and yell at people, and I do it well.

David Horsager: I saw that you’re a board member of our have been a board member of one of the curling associations, and I think that’s fasting you know we’re we’re in.

David Horsager: Minnesota this little sidetrack usually I want to get right to the meat, but I will tell you.

David Horsager: Being from Minnesota our kids because of the work we do they’ve been able to you know go to Africa and beaches and around the world, whatever one time.

David Horsager: We were, I was saying spring break, we just need to do a Minnesota vacation so we headed North we did mushing.

David Horsager: We did ice fishing, by the way, dog studying That was the most fun amazing thing ever for us up in the north woods.

David Horsager: We some other you we went to the Minister, the US hockey hall of fame and we watched a curling tournament up in hibbing Minnesota so that was our first interaction with curling.

Deborah Coviello: yeah and let’s let’s say it is also an athletic sport a very social sport it’s more about the sportsmanship having an adult beverage before, during or even after.

Deborah Coviello: And just you know it’s one of those sports that you could be eight or 80 and still play on the same team and just enjoy the sport and sportsmanship of the game, so I love it i’m hooked and, if you want to learn more just reach out to me.

David Horsager: i’m looking forward to that, I think that that that seems like a super fun.

David Horsager: Sport i’m not a big golfer and some other things so that that’s something we have you know many places here in Minnesota so.

Deborah Coviello: You know and it’s an interesting thing curling, it is a sport, but there is something about the strategy leveraging people skills and capabilities and try to get the best outcome, so it is so tied to business and I have many stories about curling and business are related.

David Horsager: let’s get into some of those.

David Horsager: So.

David Horsager: A couple things let’s let’s let’s get into this new book right away, I want to get back to personal.

David Horsager: It a little bit we always do, that I think people that you know tend to not lead others that well they don’t lead themselves well and there’s some things you’re doing that way, but first let’s jump into this book because.

David Horsager: you’ve interviewed so many CEOs you’ve gleaned all this information you put it out in this new book the CEOs compass but let’s get to the inspiration for this book and a few takeaways we can start to think about right now.

Deborah Coviello: So the inspiration for the book.

Deborah Coviello: i’m a recovering writer blogger and video person, and I was putting out so much thought leadership content out into the universe that people actually.

Deborah Coviello: hit me with Ted we don’t know what you do we don’t know what you stand for, and when it comes to being a trusted leader and you talk about consistency, so I really took a lot a lot away from your book.

Deborah Coviello: I needed to be consistent, people needed to know what was it that I stood for they knew, she was a podcaster they knew I like video but they didn’t understand the message, so I needed.

Deborah Coviello: needed to write the book and distill it down into what is my approach, what have I seen when a leader goes through rapid transformation.

Deborah Coviello: They may have been a rock star at one point in time, and then the environment changes they acquire new people there’s a downsizing customer requirements are change and then they’re off track.

Deborah Coviello: And so it all came to me that you know, there are seven compass points where you can be off track.

Deborah Coviello: And the Aha moment was, we have to stop being results oriented now that may be a shock because stakeholders your shareholders all require us to get results profitability market share, etc.

Deborah Coviello: But that is short lived, that is not sustainable, unless leaders seek true north or peace of mind, and so, with all of these different pieces that I found that leaders are off track people process past.

Deborah Coviello: pride and then there’s a myriad of others true North peace of mind, is what we’re trying to achieve, because customers don’t care about your market share.

Deborah Coviello: But they want to know that you have their back that’s trust.

Deborah Coviello: That builds brand loyalty and so ultimately this book is my framework for not only my experience, but what I have seen through numerous interviews on the drop and CEO podcast a leader needs a compass.

Deborah Coviello: They may be a little bit off track, and they need to find those compass points to pull on to get them to true north.

David Horsager: I you know, I have a few I had some specific questions.

David Horsager: prepared, but you know i’m very curious, as you know, so we need to just jump into before this I let’s just hear the seven we can’t go deep on the seven and this time, people need to go grab the book the CEOs compass.

David Horsager: Your guide to getting back on track.

David Horsager: I haven’t even had the opportunity to read it, yet you know I will but.

David Horsager: When this podcast comes out the book will have just launched, so we I need a little teasing to write with everybody else listening, as I am looking forward to getting my copy as soon as it comes out but for now we’ve got to hear what are those seven compass points.

Deborah Coviello: Okay, well, thank you so much, but just if you can close your eyes and hopefully you’re not driving when you are listening to this.

Deborah Coviello: True north is peace of mind, so north is peace of mind, then, I want you to go Northwest and North and northeast purpose and performance.

Deborah Coviello: Often leaders are off track on those two they go hand in hand the next to past and pride that speaks to culture and the humanity and intellectual property.

Deborah Coviello: Finally, process and people, which I have a different take on what those are in terms of leadership and developing our people, and then, finally, in the southern most corner, is the platform or tools for which we.

Deborah Coviello: equip our people, so there is a lot in there, you may have heard those terms, before, but I think differently and I presented in the concept of human centric leadership, which is a little bit different than most leader book leadership books.

David Horsager: What does that mean human centric so i’ve got my compass right here and i’m looking at this, but i’m thinking what what is.

David Horsager: there’s a there’s a whole lot of organizations that are moving toward even that name and global force just became work human right and the there’s this movement, even in our culture toward.

David Horsager: I think, humanity and humanists maybe code brought that out and other things, but what’s your take on what that means.

Deborah Coviello: You know, we can throw money, resources new processes and.

Deborah Coviello: Things at a problem that’s the easy way to fix things but I propose to leaders that the solution to most of your problems.

Deborah Coviello: Are within and quite inexpensive because we hire people into our organization, we make an investment.

Deborah Coviello: And then somewhere along the line for many organizations, we stopped investing in our people and then that’s where we become misaligned.

Deborah Coviello: On the purpose that people are pursuing and then aligning everybody lockstep to achieve the performance results.

Deborah Coviello: It is so easy to invest in the people but maybe leaders aren’t equipped with the tools to develop the individual.

Deborah Coviello: And the human dynamics, but I propose to you that if we invest in the humans in all aspects purpose poor performance past pride, etc.

Deborah Coviello: You protect your investment, because when you don’t.

Deborah Coviello: The high performance become the steady at ease and then they fall down the cliff into being poor performers and the next thing you know business has an expense.

Deborah Coviello: So leaders need to think about investing in human capital you’ve heard that before human centric leadership, it is well worth the investment for the long game.

David Horsager: What do you say to people that say we can’t just throw another person at that problem.

Deborah Coviello: I might agree with you, because I think you have to face the problem head on.

Deborah Coviello: I have a number of people that they said, you know, we need new people and so wait a second i’ve got all the talent, I need well yeah they’re getting ready to retire they’re only doing this over there, we need to throw another resource at it and I say why.

Deborah Coviello: I said, you know what is it about that person in the beginning, when you hire them 30 years ago they’re past their culture, what special skills that they have and why now do they not contribute enough, and why are they quiet.

Deborah Coviello: they’re just difficult up there just that way.

Deborah Coviello: Have you ever had a conversation with them to understand why, if they protected themselves, and I think once leaders kind of open up their mind and not right, people often truly understand what is their past and culture, and there I call it pride.

Deborah Coviello: that’s the intersection of your humanity in intellectual property.

Deborah Coviello: Not subject matter expertise, but I elevate the human to intellectual property, because companies will recognize the value of intellectual property and protect it and patent it and hold it near and dear people are the same.

Deborah Coviello: And so I would rather not throw people in fact I think you probably need less people in your organization, because we don’t properly understand the skills, the gifts and property to develop the people and allocate them to the work they should be doing for you.

David Horsager: This reminds me of the the study I saw with the container store it’s not this you know container container store is not that exciting of a business type.

David Horsager: And yet the CEO they’re winning they’re winning in their space and they said that when asked you know what is it about you, how does this work.

David Horsager: He said, you know we went on development in our industry, the average number of hours of developing a first year employees eight hours.

David Horsager: I spent we spent 200 hours developing our people, and we believe, if we hire right, we can take everybody and make them worth three anywhere else.

David Horsager: And that’s what’s winning and that’s why you know the container store is winning basically only on developing people as well i’m so partly so passionate of course i’m passionate about trust, but i’m passionate developing humans, because.

David Horsager: That change you attrition goes down retention goes up culture changes so interesting.

Deborah Coviello: And that’s a mindset shift for leaders, because they think they responsible for the results and delivering the services or products but it’s a mindset shift invest in the people they’re going to take care of you, I mean.

Deborah Coviello: it’s just a mindset shift, I mean, I had a particular leader, that I said, we need to invest in our people, we need to share the strategy with them, they need to know exactly where we’re going three to five years from now.

Deborah Coviello: And they said well that’s nice, but let me focus on the strategy, I need the people heads down doing their work, you know that that leaders, no longer with the organization, because their approach was not sustainable.

David Horsager: hmm reminds me of something we asked here, and if the question is, is it loving toward.

David Horsager: Is that loving toward her client is that loving toward her employees loving toward our team is that loving toward it’s like.

David Horsager: I know love that seems kind of soft in a corporate environment, but this idea that he is especially as entrepreneurs, where hey.

David Horsager: I can say if people are going to get this benefit or that benefit if they’re going to get.

David Horsager: time off if they’re going to and we we work hard, we work fast forward together it’s a pretty open environment just outside of my studio here but um but but a few things hit me, and that is, you know.

David Horsager: I could have power over, and so, especially leaders, in my opinion, healthy leaders need to ask this question, but is it loving toward.

David Horsager: And we changed the way we even do business in many ways, and we started asking that question is that loving toward the client, is it in here it’d be a simple simple.

David Horsager: Different idea, and that is you’d make the most money when we sell a certain product if you offered it basically a silver gold platinum.

David Horsager: And what we said, you know what what’s loving toward them is just saying they can have everything they can all have platinum at this price because they’ll only use.

David Horsager: they’ll use some will use a little bit of this one somebody who’s a little bit of this one, but what’s loving toward them is this way, and so we do need to feed the bottom line, and we need to deal with that, of course, but.

Deborah Coviello: that’s a quite courageous using such an intimate emotional world such as loving in the context of business and, as I think about you know the pillars of the trusted leader.

Deborah Coviello: He talked about commitment and when we talk about people in the significant people in our lives, we are loving on to them.

Deborah Coviello: And that’s a part of commitment, why can’t we do that same thing to our customers and you certainly do that yourself.

David Horsager: we’re trying we’re trying, but thank you well, I got a little preview ahead of time about the sum of what’s in the book, but at this, the question I want to ask from something I I read.

David Horsager: Why do you think everyone can’t be a high performer some people think oh everybody can be a performer if we just do this, that the other thing what’s the you.

Deborah Coviello: So I question it that just in general, why can’t everybody the a high performer and that speaks to the human centric leadership, it talks about your commitment to the humans building trust and an organization.

Deborah Coviello: What i’ve seen is there is a narrative out there corporations are HR business partners and we love our HR business process partners because they have to put us through the process.

Deborah Coviello: of evaluating our people, but we have it all wrong because so often there may be eight nine box approach, for which we put people in a box.

Deborah Coviello: or Oh, they have to be on a bell shaped curve only 10% can be a high performer only 10% can be the poor performer and everybody is a steady eddie in the middle.

Deborah Coviello: And that’s what we believe and that’s what we do, time and time again, but I have had people that are high performers.

Deborah Coviello: And unless we invest in them, and we do invest in them, but sometimes if we don’t invest in the right way they’re so action oriented they may just leave you if you don’t give them the feedback that they’re looking for.

Deborah Coviello: And then I propose to you, those people that are heads down that are loyal they say oh they’ll never leave the company they’re going to be here until they retire.

Deborah Coviello: Have you ever had a conversation with them to ask them what they think versus what they’re doing.

Deborah Coviello: If we have asked them for a transaction get those reports done get those orders out at the end of the day, that is all you’re going to get.

Deborah Coviello: But going back to the CEOs compass when you talk about.

Deborah Coviello: You know the outcome and our true purpose of what we’re trying to achieve, and you say hey, what do you think it’s going to take to be the favorite of our customers and I didn’t say number one, but the favorite.

Deborah Coviello: Oh, we asked for people’s minds we bring their consciousness to work and then you might find that person that’s been heads down has the answer, so the things that have played you, you know they could be the next high performer and then we go to the poor performer.

Deborah Coviello: Do they have a manager that’s even giving them feedback place them in the right role, have we even had a conversation with them where we assume the narrative that they’re labeled as a poor performer.

Deborah Coviello: Again, if you’ve never made the commitment to have a conversation build that trust understand their past and their pride, we may have a steady eddie or your next high performer I just want to break the narrative to assume people only perform at a certain level.

Deborah Coviello: But, given a conversation change, the environment, and I can talk about.

Deborah Coviello: Many examples i’ve had one person who has written off they’re just a subject matter expert they’re never going to be much more.

Deborah Coviello: And then I asked the question about what they wanted, I saw them give a speech, one day, standing up versus sitting down and I gave them feedback and I said, you are so powerful when you stand up and give content and information people leaned into you.

Deborah Coviello: They listened to that they didn’t realize the impact, and so a steady eddie subject matter expert wound up becoming a sought after sought after subject matter expert globally.

Deborah Coviello: They were a go to person under my wing because I took the time to see their value, see their gifts their intellectual property and raise them to a high performer and I want leaders to think about that.

Deborah Coviello: Who can you haven’t you spoken to your people hadn’t spoken to and could everybody, be a high performer start from a place of that mindset You may be surprised.

David Horsager: You mentioned something about feedback.

David Horsager: And you talked a lot about feedback, but you have a few words that help people get a better outcome in feedback tell me about that.

Deborah Coviello: So if you were your leaders are having one on ones with your people, and you say hey they you know you’re doing well, when your your employee comes to you and says how am I doing, and you say oh you’re doing fine you’re doing fine or if they come to you asking for your feedback.

Deborah Coviello: Let me get back to you, and they never do I don’t think we give people a framework to give feedback or to ask for feedback and it starts with three simple words it starts with continue.

Deborah Coviello: start and change because feedback is such a negative experience you’re afraid of what kind of constructive criticism you might get, but if you start with saying you know you should continue to do this you’re really well.

Deborah Coviello: Those are the things that play to people’s strengths, we want people to continue to do that.

Deborah Coviello: And when you give feedback about you know you might want to start doing this because if you start doing it, it may enhance what you’re already doing.

Deborah Coviello: And then, finally, you might want to change this, because it may not hurt you now, but it may hurt you in the future.

Deborah Coviello: So case in point, you may be an amazing speaker get up in front of a group you command the crowd you should continue to speak.

Deborah Coviello: What might you want to start doing you know you are so good at speaking in front of this group, I would love to have you go over to that other group over there, if you start sharing them as a resource with other people.

Deborah Coviello: Other people can recognize the value in the employee becomes more visible.

Deborah Coviello: And then, what might you want to change, maybe the person paces a lot, maybe they’re doing things with their hands, you might want to change that stopped doing that put a pen in your hand because it detracts from the gifts that you have.

Deborah Coviello: All of that is actionable all of that, as positive wouldn’t that be a wonderful conversation to have with your employee feedback is a gift when you do it in the right way.

David Horsager: Mic drop right there, people need that that that right there that little idea and way I love it so get when you give me back continue to do this start to do that.

David Horsager: Change, you might change doing that even the wording in a way of saying it is important, though, so something else came to mind, you know all this.

David Horsager: Human centric leadership, it takes so much time these leaders are so busy people would say to me, I can hear people saying well i’m too busy to do.

David Horsager: This perfect view that this so much time on this this, what do you say to those that you that say oh it’s just it’s just it takes too much time because then I will get the results, I want, by the way, you’re something I said in my wife actually there’s plenty of things, I say that are.

David Horsager: You know not written down recorded, but she actually put this week, said that say that again and I said something that just came out of my mouth mostly I set up for myself, because of the the challenges for myself, but I said margin covers a multitude of sins.

David Horsager: Like having time covers my if I have time i’m not impatient about time I see the human, if I have time I don’t cut someone off right yeah but um but what do you say to these leaders like yeah but they don’t understand i’ve got so much to do, how can I be more human centric.

Deborah Coviello: So this is a family friendly our I cannot use expletives in response to that, but I have to throw that out the window you don’t have time because, quite frankly.

Deborah Coviello: When the employee comes into your office and says, do you have a moment, could you avoided that crisis had maybe you add had a conversation with them earlier, you have time for a crisis.

Deborah Coviello: You have all the time, you need, but I would suggest you and I am a LIEN practitioner, I would propose that people.

Deborah Coviello: need a better approach on evaluating their work content through the day and they need better decision logic, I talked about this in the CEOs compass.

Deborah Coviello: I plagiarize the Eisenhower model where we talk about what is important and what is urgent.

Deborah Coviello: And I think even the best leaders need to re evaluate their work, content and say if it’s important and urgent Okay, hopefully that’s not too big a crisis, it is your responsibility to do it.

Deborah Coviello: But if it’s important and not urgent, can you schedule it in the future if it’s important and urgent, you can also delegate it to somebody and if it’s not important.

Deborah Coviello: And not urgent just write it off, and sometimes leaders feel self important by all the flurry of activity.

Deborah Coviello: But you know what I proposed, if you spend a little time shave things off your calendar that you shouldn’t do that you can delegate you would be amazed at how much time you get back.

Deborah Coviello: Thinking time and then what are those things that you need to do proactively I as a quality improvement professional I would rather be in a place.

Deborah Coviello: of preventing things and developing the systems and the processes and having those one to ones with your employees again human centric invest in the people you know you may have people more aligned.

Deborah Coviello: On a purpose aligning their performance and less reactive maintenance it’s about you, having the discipline to do the work you need to be doing.

David Horsager: Deborah you’ve given us so much in this short time I love it the feedback the the seven pieces that make up a great compass, do you have one or two more takeaways from this book that would inspire us as CEOs.

Deborah Coviello: Great question there’s a couple more points, I am really passionate about because I have seen amazing companies grow rapidly.

Deborah Coviello: and very quickly exceed their human capability and I talked about corporate destabilization.

Deborah Coviello: It is so critical it happens, be in front of your eyes, you have great subject matter experts, you were wonderful as a smaller company, and as you grew.

Deborah Coviello: You elevated these people, you should develop them and elevate them to higher level positions.

Deborah Coviello: But again, this is an investment in the human Have you ever given them the essential skills to be able to communicate to provide feedback to negotiate difficult situations to be able to even articulate.

Deborah Coviello: strong, powerful messages when they disseminate information and they greater disservice is if they haven’t developed these skills, the people below them have nothing to model.

Deborah Coviello: So, for example, you may have a leader, giving a presentation, they spew information and they don’t.

Deborah Coviello: understand why people aren’t following them are going along with them, I gave you the data.

Deborah Coviello: But as an essential skill of okay here’s the information.

Deborah Coviello: Here is the risk or opportunity we have in front of us and here’s the impact if we do or do not do it simple essential skills, but we elevate these people and we don’t tell them how to do this.

Deborah Coviello: And then they wonder why they lose their confidence and they’re no longer effective they leave the company, but also the people under them we.

Deborah Coviello: You have created corporate destabilization so I propose to you as part of your model when you elevate and grow and that’s beautiful think about what are you going to do to invest in your people, so they can be developing themselves and the leaders of department of tomorrow that sustainability.

David Horsager: mm hmm And what about, then, what do I do, how do I keep alignment use the word alignment early on, how do I create and keep alignment, even as i’m growing.

Deborah Coviello: Well, it does start with the top what ultimately, what is the outcome, the overall organization is trying to achieve and it’s very important to have a well articulated purpose or to a why.

Deborah Coviello: Why are we here, why is it we are here to serve, it is important to be able to look at your top tier your middle tier your bottom tier people.

Deborah Coviello: And what is it that they need in order to be successful, so, for instance, if we say we want to provide the best service in our sector certainly your customer service people and sales people understand what services.

Deborah Coviello: But your middle tier people if they are having handoffs with internal people they are arguing they’re in silos they’re not communicating they’re not committed to their internal customers.

Deborah Coviello: You haven’t given them the skills to understand what excellent customer services and so, then you go down the rank and file we’re working in our silos we’ve had an.

Deborah Coviello: regularly talked about what does it mean to have service level agreements have internal customer service, because at the end of the day, if the people who are touching your customer.

Deborah Coviello: are having internal customer service issues your customer is going to feel the pain, despite all of the powerpoints and you’re having an amazing customer service and sales department.

Deborah Coviello: That is critical for performance is ensure that everybody has all the skills, all the right level to achieve your purpose be aligned and you’ll have the performance results.

David Horsager: love it.

David Horsager: So let’s get personal here just a little bit what we’ve learned is this, and I know you’ve been a leader you’ve let other leaders you’ve been a voice to leaders.

David Horsager: But we know that leaders that.

David Horsager: tend to do well, that are at least high trusted tend to lead themselves well do you have any debra and I know imperfect, as we are, but do you have habits or routines that make you better as a leader that help you lead every day personal habits that help you be personally healthy.

Deborah Coviello: You know that’s a work in progress, it we’re always evolving trying to find those things that just keep us a line going forward, but I will tell you.

Deborah Coviello: there’s a couple things that I do one is setting the right priorities for myself, I used to talk about personally there’s my achievements my revenue my brand and then my health and wellness.

Deborah Coviello: And that only got me so far, so I make sure I have the right priorities this year in 2021 I flipped the priorities I focus on my time my health and wellness my sleep I.

Deborah Coviello: asked my husband i’m a cranky person if I don’t get enough sleep, then I focus on building the trust and the commitment to my customers and then, finally, the revenue and the tangible results, I make sure I have my priorities right every day, but then I too.

Deborah Coviello: I can be scattered, I want to change the world, I want to do a lot of things, I have a daily accountability tool.

Deborah Coviello: I look at it daily weekly, monthly because you know, sometimes our goals can be lofty and overwhelming, then we procrastinate and we fail.

Deborah Coviello: But if I every day week or month can progress forward, according to some, accountability, even a leader needs accountability, despite having that vision out there to keep them going forward so I regularly review my planner every day.

Deborah Coviello: But, most importantly, I take time for myself each morning I just sit there I evaluate what I need to accomplish what’s most important.

Deborah Coviello: get an hour and a half headstart of my husband before I have the interruption, but you know what when I get that i’m just a better human and I can serve better.

David Horsager: Do you have any questions that you think leaders today should be asking that they’re not asking like what, what are we missing.

Deborah Coviello: I mean the simple ones on a tactical level when we meet with our people are we asking them such questions do you have everything you need to be successful.

Deborah Coviello: Because that’s what our job is it’s not about hey how are you doing on that project or hey are you getting that result you know, do you have any issues there it’s really about the human.

Deborah Coviello: Ask the question, what do you need to be successful kick the boxes, I remember norm ring get I don’t even know if he’s with us anymore.

Deborah Coviello: Mid career, he says every single morning I would walk around the plant and kick the boxes just get the pulse of what people are doing and say how can I help, how can I help that’s really what our job is all about.

David Horsager: Leaders leaders job is to help.

David Horsager: Well let’s do a couple lightning round questions here as we get going, but first of all what’s what’s motivating you these days.

Deborah Coviello: And there’s a couple things that are motivating me and again it’s just one thing at a time, you know.

Deborah Coviello: home I the book The book is out so i’m certainly grateful for having the strength and energy and supporters to get the book out, but what motivates me is just one person at a time.

Deborah Coviello: You know I didn’t set out to the number one best selling author, but when I have somebody who I coach and then, when they were done you say deb you made a difference, you made me think about myself difference I got my confidence back i’m now moving forward to some of my coaching work.

Deborah Coviello: When i’m in front of a client.

Deborah Coviello: And they say.

Deborah Coviello: you’re a godsend we couldn’t have done this without you.

Deborah Coviello: And you get the follow up work that is what motivates me every day, but on a personal note.

Deborah Coviello: On my my children, you know hard parenting does pay off when you start seeing to make making responsible decisions and being productive citizens that’s motivation to keep going that’s really what it’s all about it’s my contribution and my commitment for the next generation that’s motivating.

David Horsager: For those listening you don’t see this for those watching on the YouTube channel, you might there’s a few soldiers and beautiful folks behind you are those some of your kids.

Deborah Coviello: Yes, my daughter 19 architectural student at the University of Kentucky.

Deborah Coviello: David over here, he just got his sergeant position I believe he is in the army and on spock Germany and Daniel down here, he is married he is 30 years old, he has three degrees MBA.

Deborah Coviello: And going to be working in Zurich Switzerland, along with his wife, they are making a difference, I could go on an entire podcast about their accomplishments but they’re really why we’re here is to leave a legacy.

David Horsager: What a global global perspective to that they have so thank you there’s probably nothing better than for you to create great kids.

Deborah Coviello: You know, when your son Daniel down here spoke in Taiwan in front of 100,000 people on buddha’s birthday and on mother’s day.

Deborah Coviello: Because he was a sought out speaker because he was speaking about youth having a greater voice in the political and economical market because.

Deborah Coviello: We don’t want people who are generations older than us making decisions that youth need to have a more active voice that is a motivating moment to know that i’ve done the right thing and and will still be there to support them in the good in the bad.

Deborah Coviello: David David protecting people that can protect themselves what a noble cause where did children get that.

Deborah Coviello: You know hard parenting good values and finding their way yeah.

David Horsager: wow I think we need to skip some of these that’s about that’s a that that that pulls it all together, do you have any big hope for yourself or your work for the future.

Deborah Coviello: Oh wow you first of all, are an amazing host because you have caught me with questions that really make me think and again that is really what I do for leaders as I help them to think but, honestly.

Deborah Coviello: it’s not egotistical, but I do see myself on a stage the CEOs campus it’s just the beginning of me sharing my insights and inspiration, as well as those of other leaders, but if I can impact.

Deborah Coviello: A leader, a future CEO of a company because of the work that i’ve been able to share with them getting to think differently and not following somebody else’s five step approach that really the CEOs compass helps you think for yourself.

Deborah Coviello: evaluate your situation and pick the road and the compass points you need to that work is truly the work I wanted to on a stage speaking sharing with others and making a difference that’s really, what I want to do, and thank you for the opportunity Dave.


David Horsager: Well you’re the CEO and founder of your own organization you’re the host of the drop in CEO podcast you are the author of CEO compass the CEOs compass.

David Horsager: Where can we’ve got one more question, we were going to close with but before that, where would you like our listeners to find you many want to find out more everybody knows go to the trusted leader show.com to see the show notes tell us.

David Horsager: Where can we find out about you.

Deborah Coviello: simplicity and the website drop and CEO Dr O P, I nc O COM, that is where you can find me and all the links to my social media how to connect with me with my book, the podcast blog and many more resources coming real soon, but my sandbox is linkedin.

Deborah Coviello: You can connect with me there Deborah a coviello the drop in ceo i’d love to have a conversation with you and see how I can help you and give you a compass.

David Horsager: Well, thank you, thank you so much for being here thanks for sharing your insights last question.

David Horsager: it’s the trusted leader show who is the leader you trust and why.

Deborah Coviello: One i’m going to use dorie Clark dorie Clark writes a lot of great content, she is a thought leader, she is a marketing brand expert she has written three books stand out reinventing you and entrepreneurial you.

Deborah Coviello: Yes, she’s an expert push she is living proof she is living the journey and as she’s writing her story she is writing her fourth book.

Deborah Coviello: The long game everything she talks about being authentic developing your personal brand standing out being the leader you’re meant to be celebrating your unique thoughts yours in the trusted space mine in the CEO space she’s authentic she’s consistent and I love following her work.

David Horsager: Thank you, great recommendation and a whole lot of insights today deb Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you, thanks for joining us, this has been the trust the Leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 47: John DeMato on The Power Of Visual Storytelling

In this episode, David sits down with John DeMato, Photographer and Visual Story Expert, to discuss the power of visual storytelling.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

John’s Bio:
John DeMato is a photographer and visual story expert who collaborates with speakers, trainers, consultants and other expert business owners to create image content that captures their audience’s attention through artistry and emotion. John isn’t simply a photographer – he thinks like a marketer. He sets clients up for success beyond the photo sessions by educating them on how to leverage their portraits, book images, virtual and live event photos across their online presence.

John’s Links:
Website: https://www.johndemato.com/
Compelling Visual Story Guide For Experts: https://www.johndemato.com/personal-brand
John’s Blog: https://www.johndemato.com/blog
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/john.a.demato/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dematophoto/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeMatoPhoto
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johndemato/

Key Quotes:
1. “The whole goal of these images is to build relationships with the people that they serve.”
2. “You can’t build trust if you’re faking it.”
3. “The story and the visual always need to work in concert with each other.”
4. “I know I’m not for everyone, and that’s cool.”
5. “What’s the teachable moment?”
6. “If you run away from your feelings, it’s a race you’re never going to win.”
7. “Learning never ends.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
John’s photos of David’s book Trusted Leader: https://www.johndemato.com/david-horsager-book-photos
John’s Blog: https://www.johndemato.com/blog
John’s Portfolio: https://www.johndemato.com/personal-brand-photography-gallery

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager i’ve got a special guest he started out at HBO and a production assistant with HBO sports then.

David Horsager: i’d almost a decade at NBC universal media and now he runs his own.

David Horsager: Company and it’s all about this digital storytelling he’s an amazing photographer i’ve seen his work he’s actually produced amazing photography on my last book trusted leader, please, welcome to the show John DeMato thanks for being here john.

John A. DeMato: thanks for having me David appreciate it.

David Horsager: So i’m talking to you today from your place in New York City and it’s a it’s a treat we’ve just were at a conference not too long ago together but.

David Horsager: You know, maybe, give us just a taste of john I know you write it to 13 blogs, a month you spend a lot of your day writing, even though you’re also a photo going, you know.

David Horsager: Taking it’s not just taking pictures really visual storytelling of of celebrities and others but give us a give us a little two minute insight on john d’amato.

John A. DeMato: Two minute insight on john d’amato well once upon a time, I thought I was going to be shooting sports documentaries for a living, then I thought I was going to work in sketch comedy and the next thing you know I and.

John A. DeMato: photographing people like yourself working with experts who serve other people in one way, shape or form and the whole objective of what I do is to make sure that I present.

John A. DeMato: The people that I photograph in a way that creates a connection with those that they serve in order to bring them into their world so that they can learn how this person can help get them from here to here that’s pretty much it.

David Horsager: yeah you know you become kind of a celebrity in our industry overnight, it seems like to me where you’re you’re.

David Horsager: Taking video are taking pictures of and photographing.

David Horsager: Some of the greatest thought leaders in the world and it’s because I mean you’re you’re incredibly good I don’t even sometimes know the difference of why this is better than this, but it does tell the story differently, it shows differently, what what does it mean.

David Horsager: How do you differentiate yourself kind of from all the other photographers out there.

John A. DeMato: Well, I stopped paying attention to what other photographers do a long time ago and that’s what helped me actually zone in on how you know I can bring out what I bring to the table.

John A. DeMato: But really the thing that I focus on.

John A. DeMato: is getting that connection and rapport with the person that’s in front of the cameras so that they’re able to.

John A. DeMato: drop their guard and truly be themselves so that when they’re revealing these expressions this body language during whatever activities that were photographing them doing.

John A. DeMato: It feels very genuine and honest to them, because at the end of the day, the whole.

John A. DeMato: goal of these images is to build relationships with the people that they serve, and if they’re you know, posing and faking it and you know standing in front of a private jet that they don’t own or in front of.

John A. DeMato: a fleet of cars that they’re renting and it’s not really there is and it’s a bunch of crap.

John A. DeMato: that’s not the type of message that you’re you want to portray.

John A. DeMato: Because there’s no trust there you can’t build trust if you’re faking it so my whole thing is to be able to get on a granular level with these people in a way that I truly understand who they are.

John A. DeMato: Who they serve what problems they solve how they solve them and why they do what they do.

David Horsager: So you pre work like unlike a lot of you know a lot of people just have these photo shoots and have people come in, you do a lot of pre work to.

David Horsager: get to know them I know some of the things you, you said is here’s what I want you to do show them what your day to day looks like show them how the sausage is made.

David Horsager: Show them.

David Horsager: At your best show them, you know why you’re the solution to their problem what benefits, you know you showing your best, but the real you there’s a whole lot of what you talk about and it’s.

David Horsager: it’s you know all around authenticity, which, in our world builds trust tell us about how you how you do that.

John A. DeMato: Well, the idea is to kind of figure out.

John A. DeMato: What their face their facial expression or body language looks like across the emotional spectrum we don’t want to just show off what we look like when we’re celebrating wins that’s great and that’s a part of the story, we also want to show flattering images.

John A. DeMato: Because if they’re not flattering person is not going to use them, but what we also need to take into account is the fact.

John A. DeMato: that we need to see them across the emotional spectrum, including their vulnerabilities because that’s what creates connection with people.

John A. DeMato: And by asking a lot of questions you know it’s the TV producer in me, you can take me off the show, but I can’t take my head out of the way that I created a process.

John A. DeMato: So what i’m doing is really understanding what people’s motivations are and how they react to certain things in their life, and those are those nuggets during our conversation, the strategy call beforehand.

John A. DeMato: That really clues me into what they not only what they’re doing in front of the camera but where we’re photographing the shots what they’re wearing the expressions the activities, all of these different things come into focus, once this conversation.

John A. DeMato: is going on and i’m taking a ton of notes and creating the shot sheet and really understanding, who i’m working with and how to communicate with them effectively in order to get all of that stuff out of them because.

John A. DeMato: I don’t know if you know this, but a lot of people don’t like being in front of the camera.

John A. DeMato: So there’s that piece to you know so there’s a lot of trust that has to be built during that strategy call between myself and the client before we even get into the whole work piece so there’s a lot going on.

David Horsager: So just so everybody knows in the show notes trusted leader show.com we’re going to put several of john’s images.

David Horsager: If we’ll get we’ll get some of my friends that have been photographed and just show you the difference of john’s images and we’re all going to also going to put in.

David Horsager: The the some photos photographs of my newest book trusted leader, which is cool inside and tool color and people don’t often see that you notice that you made it come alive in a certain way, and many people commented on the way you photograph that but.

John A. DeMato: Your book is so beautiful and it has so many cool visual elements, the tabs the layout the way you have the title on the bottom of the page and just in the red and the wide and.

John A. DeMato: I mean it was it was fun and the reason why I even came across it was the fact that you know you and I have several colleagues in common and i’m like who is this guy first of all I liked him number one.

John A. DeMato: Because of the videos that you were posting and talking about the book and i’m like i’m just going to buy the damn book and i’m going to photograph and I don’t care because it just looks so cool and.

John A. DeMato: I felt just a genuine like skies pretty cool, let me see what’s going on that’s how it started.

David Horsager: Well, I think this is really interesting, and this is kind of we talked about transfer trust where.

David Horsager: It came back full circle where basically at first, you gave us a gift now we’ve been thinking about Okay, who we’re going to have photograph.

David Horsager: me or our work next and it comes back to well john, so I think that it’s really interesting you you reach out to people you connect with them authentically just like your work.

David Horsager: talks about and i’ve heard of other people getting to know you in this exact way what else would you say about you know for people out that are listening.

David Horsager: And they want to build trust with their their audience they don’t want to be just this marketing so for.

David Horsager: Maybe they are thought leaders, maybe they’re experts, maybe they’re CEOs but they want to connect with their audience more authentically What would you say even as far as using images or otherwise.

John A. DeMato: Well, when we’re talking about connecting with an audience it’s never just about the visual the story and the visual always need to work in concert with each other.

John A. DeMato: And one of the ways that you can create that connection is by simply sharing your life beyond the work it’s not just about the work, because at the end of the day.

John A. DeMato: When you’re building relationships with people they’re not just hiring you for your brain, for your ability to make them a better person.

John A. DeMato: they’re hiring you because they can actually stomach being in a room with you for four hours and going through all that it’s heavy work and heavy lifting.

John A. DeMato: And that’s really what it’s all about and when it comes to the people that I serve.

John A. DeMato: You know i’m very cognizant of the fact that I put my personality in every piece of content that I post, because I know i’m not for everyone and that’s cool.

John A. DeMato: I want to give them the opportunity to know who I am and what the process and the dynamics of working with me is like and you do that by sharing aspects of your life within your own voice, and that is what.

John A. DeMato: You know drives people away, but it also brings the people that resonate with that style and approach and expertise and artistry and then they come on in and they’re not just my clients that my friends and that’s the really awesome part.

David Horsager: That is tremendous there’s there’s a lot to this ability to say no, knowing who you say yes to and who you say no to how do you how have you thought about that, like you know who do you say no to.

John A. DeMato: Well, when I first started I said yes to everybody, because I needed to keep the lights on.

John A. DeMato: But as we’ve gone along in time.

John A. DeMato: I remember once I was on a call with a potential speaker consultant type person, and it was a zoom meeting with three of her assistance.

John A. DeMato: And the moment that this person came on the expert came on and started be rating the people that were on the screen that I had never met those other people and I never met her and I met one of her assistant and the other two.

John A. DeMato: And just the way she was talking to him i’m like this is a no and I never called them back, I went through the meeting I was respectful, but that was it.

David Horsager: You know it’s interesting how you treat, so I think of a couple of ways people lose their audience even since we talked about experts here.

David Horsager: How a speaker treats anybody from the audience is how they all feel I once a magic show big show and the.

David Horsager: Some assistant, you know magic assistant forgot to put something on stage for the this magician big name, by the way, everybody would know it.

David Horsager: And he was upset i’m sure it’s a big deal because you know the magic isn’t going to look magical you know, without whatever prop was forgotten.

David Horsager: But the way he said something to that assistant from that moment on, he lost the audience right, then how we treat kind of how we treat the least of these right how you treat.

David Horsager: Your own people how you treat others I also kind of going off here, but I thought about this editor at a big event I was keynote and another.

David Horsager: Just bigger name speaker was was keynote in and they gave him a standing ovation and I watched him afterwards as he be rated the sound team.

David Horsager: And I had you I used to look up to this person and it it it it affected me so much this idea of being the same onstage and offstage right and so.

David Horsager: Anyway, that’s interesting that you say that even in calls it’s a it’s a hard know hey it’s not just about the money it’s got to be a fit here, and if we’re going to treat people like that that’s not a fit in and work with john.

David Horsager: you’re a writer, too, I mean you know you go back to your production days, certainly, but I mean you have an amazing I behind the camera.

David Horsager: You have this way of getting to the core of humans to tell a story, but you’re also a storyteller by giving so much to your writing tell us about your you know what you’re doing writing wise 13 blogs, a month and more and just the process.

John A. DeMato: Well, originally.

John A. DeMato: I hired a consultant for years ago and up until that time I was writing a blog a month, and it was very you know five steps to do this before your photo session, and this, and that a lot of you know seo out kind of key word kind of thing and.

John A. DeMato: When I talked to him, like Why is nobody reading anything and he’s like well there’s no you in this you’re not teaching a lesson through storytelling you’re basically parroting what everybody else is doing and that really woke me up he’s like.

John A. DeMato: You have all of these stories all of these experiences and what you need to do is translate that into content that’s actually going to speak to people.

John A. DeMato: And over the years it’s mature into an opportunity for me to kind of have a catharsis you know I don’t just see writing as a these are.

John A. DeMato: Perfect final pieces, you know they’re all money in the bank and they’re all wonderful what it really is is akin to a stand up comedian doing a 15 minutes set to warm up for their special you know, there are 60 minute our special that they’re going to record.

John A. DeMato: I treat it as a workspace I treated as a place to be an extension of my art I share my feelings, you know I talked about a lot of vulnerable things on there, because at the end of the day.

John A. DeMato: You know it’s a lot more than just trying to get clicks it’s really about.

John A. DeMato: giving an education to the people that are in my ecosphere about who I am and who I serve and what problems do I solve and why do I do what I do, because if i’m here.

John A. DeMato: waxing poetic to all of these expert speakers who are ultra successful and need these photos and i’m telling them, you have to create these relationships with your audience well if i’m not doing the same thing.

John A. DeMato: Then where’s my authenticity where’s my you know where’s the trust there, there is no trust there because i’m just telling people to do stuff and not walking my talk so that’s how I treat my writing.

David Horsager: You know there’s a big piece of research, I I so appreciate that that shows the more the 90% of people would would this is from our trust outlook global study.

David Horsager: Center people would trust a leader more they’re more transparent about their mistakes and that’s not just how great they are but.

David Horsager: But they’re they’re tough they’re their mistakes they’re these kind of things you’re dealing with a lot of high profile people high egos certainly and yet you are very authentic you know i’ve noticed even social media wise, the last.

David Horsager: little bit here you lost your dad you’ve been very open about that what’s that process been like sharing with all these kind of you know leaders, some of them are very protected and yet you’re willing to share your life and this this just.

David Horsager: kind of deep sadness and challenge of it, what what tell us about that as much as you’d like to.

David Horsager: We talked about your at a.

David Horsager: Time pre talked about this, so you can cut anything else you say here out in production, but I know you’ve been willing to share your life.

John A. DeMato: yeah and I do it intentionally the posts that I write also when my mother passed away in 2013 I did the same thing.

John A. DeMato: I write though those posts are ultimately you know I want to offer an opportunity for people to really know who I am and i’m open about it because.

John A. DeMato: Really those posts are for me those posts are for me to kind of make sense of what’s going on in my head because there’s a lot of stuff going on right now and for me to be able to kind of.

John A. DeMato: You know, get grounded and kind of get back moving forward, I write about these things, but then.

John A. DeMato: The back of my mind is what’s the teachable moment what’s the teachable moment, and then I find something and actually for the post that I wrote about my dad recently I had a couple of versions and.

John A. DeMato: At one point, I wrote So why am I even telling you all of this hold on give me 100 words and i’ll figure it out and then ultimately the moment I wrote that.

John A. DeMato: As I oh I got the idea and the idea of the lesson was if you run away from it, if you run away from your feelings it’s a ratio never going to win.

John A. DeMato: And, and that that’s ultimately what I came up with that, but the point being is that, ultimately, I write those things just to kind of.

John A. DeMato: kind of get past the feelings in myself really.

David Horsager: right to learn there’s the one of the great books in college that I read was right to learn how we learn so much by writing right yeah when we write it it just like for me as an auditory learner.

David Horsager: When I speak it I got to speak it out with my friends or my colleagues this idea or thought the same thing can happen with writing it, you can learn so much.

David Horsager: Just by writing it out and solidify or site Oh, I see that on paper that’s terrible that’s not where we should go, you know when we’re talking about strategic type of things.

David Horsager: Speaking of that, what do you learn in these days, what do you learn about storytelling what are you learning in your space we keep learning what do you, what do you learn in these days.

John A. DeMato: Learning that the learning never ends and that’s.

John A. DeMato: You know, we just when you think that you’ve kind of figured it out, you quite haven’t because at the end of the day, everybody is so unique and so diverse and and I think.

John A. DeMato: That is always the constant education it’s because the moment that I have a new client come into the come in and start to work with me I realized, you know.

John A. DeMato: There are commonalities amongst many speakers, you know, there are, but there are also these unique wrinkles and nuances in people’s personalities, the way to communicate the way to get that effective connection, so that we can get what we need, and.

John A. DeMato: And, and that education never stops and that part is the challenge, but also the joy because this way do I love it I love it so much and it’s just really entertaining really interesting challenging and fun and.

John A. DeMato: Ultimately, helping these people get in front of those that need them the most that’s what it’s about.

David Horsager: love it we talked about you know leaders great leaders often lead themselves well and even though we’re all imperfect and honest a journey, it seems like you you’ve you stay fit you, you have a discipline of writing.

David Horsager: Every day, what are your disciplines or routines that help you stay for the long haul and i’m getting better.

John A. DeMato: While I do some free writing that has nothing to do with anything blog related that helps I do exercise several days I just got off my exercise bike in the apartment because I was too lazy to go to the gym.

John A. DeMato: You know I really try to be mindful of that but, overall, one of the things that helps me keep focused is minimize decision fatigue as much as humanly possible that’s why I own 30 black T shirts seven of them have this yeah absolutely my hashtag on it, but the rest of them are blank.

John A. DeMato: eat I eat a minimal diet, I fat intermittent fast as much as I can I stay away from certain things.

John A. DeMato: Like added sugar and dairy and gluten and things like that, and it just keeps me kind of like I said minimizing all the extra stuff so that I can focus on this on the things that are most important to me.

David Horsager: What are your inputs for learning like you have a lot of outputs you’re rolling out words, both you know, especially in writing and you’re you’re you’re helping capture stories of people, what do you put in, are you reading are you listening to podcasts what what’s your what’s your input.

John A. DeMato: I have a library of books that I photographed Unfortunately I work with a lot of really smart successful people, so a lot of it is conversations with them reading their stuff following them online.

John A. DeMato: podcasts a lot of what I do with podcasts is that’s kind of where my entertainment is I listened to a lot of silly comedy podcasts just to kind of turn it off, but in terms of the education it’s really i’m really grateful.

John A. DeMato: for working with people that really specialize in all of these areas, so I don’t really have to go far to really learn some things.

David Horsager: what’s your what’s your biggest hope for for what’s ahead, what do you hope for the next few years, as far as your work.

John A. DeMato: You know there’s this.

John A. DeMato: Thought in my mind that what I would really want is to be able to extend this conversation of creating this emotional connection and be able to.

John A. DeMato: You know, be genuine and honest as an expert to present themselves honestly in front of their audience to build those relationships and trust and.

John A. DeMato: What I would really love to do is have that conversation go on a much grander scale within the speaker expert Community so that it becomes the prevailing wisdom in terms of how they do their job and how they get out there and how they bring people into their ecosystem.

David Horsager: Do you see people that don’t just don’t seem authentic.

John A. DeMato: Every day.

David Horsager: yeah i’m a new yorker man.

David Horsager: What do you watch them because I see I see people like both in our world like they’re different onstage and they are off stage.

David Horsager: So they.

David Horsager: spoke on success and then they’re drunk at the bar afterwards I mean they talk about relationships and you find out they’re divorced five times and you wonder, you know.

David Horsager: I mean it’s just there’s an authenticity someplace but, but also some people get in this kind of upfront look, but they kind of seem like they always have it like What do you do with that, as far as you know, trying to tell a story that has any authenticity to it.

John A. DeMato: Well, if they’re not willing to be genuine and honest I can help them I can’t you know you can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do, the only thing that you can hope for is that they have that moment in their mind where they realized that i’m full of crap.

John A. DeMato: Everything doesn’t feel right i’m misaligned everywhere in my life I need to get the track the train on the tracks and and move forward.

John A. DeMato: And that’s all you can hope for, because at the end of the day, you know you can only hold someone tam for so long, until they actually start to realize it for themselves and that’s really it that’s yeah.

David Horsager: So just a couple more thoughts, while I have you one is anything you would recommend you know, some people don’t like the word.

David Horsager: Marketing any more than they like selling but, in essence, this is what this is it, but we just want to do it authentically we want to build trust and connection with people, but we do.

David Horsager: If you, you know care about like in our case you deeply passionately care about this trust work.

David Horsager: And I really had to have an Epiphany like we kind of need this sell it we kind of have to market if we want it to go around the world if we feel called to it, which we do.

David Horsager: Then we have to get better at, in essence, for a long time, you know we’re very fortunate with word of mouth and all these things but but we we care about it too much we need people to know about it.

David Horsager: What would you any recommendation for how do you get a message you care about it authentically out to the world in the right way, whether selling marketing or you know messaging any any tips or takeaways in.

David Horsager: Our guard, because I think we’re aligned on wanting to do it authentically and with value right.

David Horsager: So absolutely you know.

David Horsager: Not.

David Horsager: Easy not hey by you know here’s for 995 better that you know.

John A. DeMato: Just know what I what I would say to people is that there’s two parts to this it’s the expertise piece it’s the value piece it’s the I am the authority in my space, whatever that spaces, you need to show people.

John A. DeMato: What the experience of working with you looks like you need to show them what your life looks like you need to show them what why you’re doing all this stuff what your hobbies look like for family life, you know things things.

John A. DeMato: Things that people can grab on to but then you also have to show that you’re a relatable revealing inspiring human being.

John A. DeMato: So you have to you know the superstar aspect so you’re on stage you’re doing the workshops you’re doing the virtual talks all these people that’s great.

John A. DeMato: But then we also need to see the vulnerability of you, you know living your life, and if you can.

John A. DeMato: bridge that gap between those two and have that more well rounded scope of who you are as a human being and what drives you to show up in the world every day, the way you do.

John A. DeMato: that’s what’s going to connect with people it’ll connect deeply with some it’ll push the others away but it hyper focus is you, and it cuts through the noise that’s on social and on the Internet in general right now.

David Horsager: wow Thank you john we got one last question before we get to it, where can people find out about you, your visual storytelling and photography as well as what we should be reading that john’s writing.

John A. DeMato: Well, the easiest place to go, is this really complicated URL john tomato.com and.

John A. DeMato: From there you can learn a little bit more about the visual storytelling process all the different types of elements that go into the type of photography that experts need, and if you want to join.

John A. DeMato: sign up for the newsletter and get some information save you the trip over to the website, you can sign up on the website as well.

David Horsager: Perfect john tomato.com we’re going to in the show notes check out some of his photography Of course you can do that right on his site, but you got to take a look at how he.

David Horsager: captured the trusted leader book trusted leader book, I should say, not the scrap the just like scrubbed on Facebook right so.

David Horsager: check that out check out the show notes check out john’s site, it has been a treat to have you on john it’s the trusted leader show who’s the Leader you trust and why.

John A. DeMato: hmm.

John A. DeMato: i’ll throw out a name that we both know phil Jones.

John A. DeMato: One of the brightest most generous human beings, I know, and every word that comes out I wish I had a pen and a pad writing it down every time you spoke.

David Horsager: love it, you know phil and I are on a very small I guess people call it a mastermind group or something like that, together, so we meet commonly amazing guy so.

David Horsager: yeah phil Jones what what a what a good one i’m gonna let him know by text, right after that you just said that.

John A. DeMato: cool.

David Horsager: Of all the people in the world.

David Horsager: hey it has been a treat to be with you john, thank you for sharing this with world, thank you for becoming a friend and with that that’s the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 46: M. Gasby Brown on The Commonality Of The Most Effective CEOs

In this episode, David sits down with M. Gasby Brown, CEO of The Gasby Group, Author, Visual Artist, as well as a Nonprofit and Philanthropy Expert, to discuss the commonality of the most effective CEOs.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Gasby’s Bio:
M. Gasby Brown has a passion for the nonprofit sector that is beyond the norm. She heads a consulting firm that believes strongly in the power of well-run nonprofit organizations, board governance, programmatic strength, and ethical fundraising that leads to changing lives and impacting the world. Her cabinet level experience in organizations such as Greenpeace, National Urban League and The Washington National Opera, placed her in leadership positions that were instrumental in restructuring organizations, recalibrating program models, reenergizing boards and senior staff, and enhancing fundraising. It’s not surprising that she is the product of Harvard University’s Kennedy School where she earned a Master’s Degree in Public Administration (MPA). At MIT she was a team member in the renowned Media Lab where she conducted advanced research in new communications technology. Gasby is an entrepreneur, author, professor, visual artist, thought-leader, meeting facilitator, podcast host, as well as a nonprofit and philanthropy expert. Her Christian faith is woven through all of her accomplishments.

Gasby’s Links:
Website: https://www.thegasbygroup.com/
“Business of a Spiritual Matter” by M. Gasby Brown: https://amzn.to/38BXvxJ
Gasby’s Art: https://nopermissionneeded.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-gasby-group-9b33104/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007176917626
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thegasbygroup/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/GasbyBrown

Key Quotes:
1. “The non-profit sector represents an opportunity to serve the least of these.”
2. “If you call yourself a leader and no one is following then you’re just taking a walk.” – Unknown
3. “Laser-like focus on what needs to be done is the lynchpin for any leader.”
4. “There needs to be racial literacy.”
5. “Always be open to learning new things.”
6. “It’s not in the thinking about it, it’s in the doing.”
7. “CEOs who are most effective have that sense of humility.”
8. “We have to meet people where they are.”
9. “Relationship is so important when building trust.”
10. “Many are called but few are chosen.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Business of a Spiritual Matter” by M. Gasby Brown: https://amzn.to/38BXvxJ
“Think Again” by Adam Grant: https://amzn.to/38Gpxbc
“Just As I Am” by Cicely Tyson: https://amzn.to/3thhJ9l
“Half Of A Yellow Sun” by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: https://amzn.to/3zJe1YF
“The Topeka School” by Ben Lerner: https://amzn.to/3yK6Wpc
“Not On This Board You Don’t” by Arthur Frantzreb: https://amzn.to/3BDeAUd

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a special guest with today.

David Horsager: She is the CEO of The Gasby Group she’s a product of Harvard university’s Kennedy.

David Horsager: school and she’s done research at the renowned media lab at MIT.

David Horsager: Some have called her the philanthropic guru and the nonprofit myth busters she is an author she’s an artist and she’s a friend so right off the BAT i’ll say we serve on a university board together and we become friends and I.

David Horsager: admire her wisdom and I just plain liker so thank you for being on the show today M. Gasby Brown.

Gasby Brown: Oh, David Thank you so much, thank you for that wonderful introduction I liked everything you said, by the way.

Gasby Brown: And it has been just a joy to for us to get to know one another and become friends, so thank you for having me here today.

David Horsager: Well, thank you let’s start with just a little background and what you’ve been most passionate about these days.

Gasby Brown: Well, these days, i’m very interested in a number of things one the whole space of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice.

Gasby Brown: The whole space of getting to know oneself in this sort of post pandemic, but not post pandemic error and which we were forced to confront.

Gasby Brown: who we are, who we want to be so, I have a keen interest in that introspection that that has caused and i’m very, very interested in philanthropy and the nonprofit space and what’s going on in the world, I really love humankind and I have a heart for it.

David Horsager: we’re going to jump into several of these things, and what you see as far as leaders in fact I think there’s.

David Horsager: there’s some interesting things with with with nonprofits we want to get to actually will jump there now come back to personal in a moment.

David Horsager: What, what do you think you said something that I thought was interesting, I want to hear our listeners dear why you think nonprofits are so important in the US economy and in our world.

Gasby Brown: Well, there are three sectors that drive the United States, the government business and the nonprofit sector, which is responsible for trillions of dollars that.

Gasby Brown: contribute to our gross national and domestic product, and I think people underestimate that.

Gasby Brown: On top of that, the nonprofit world in the sector can accomplish things that government cannot because of its bureaucratic nature.

Gasby Brown: It can accomplish things that businesses are not necessarily interested in in making that their primary source of.

Gasby Brown: A focus, they are in business to make money and to make profits and to be profitable for shareholders, so the nonprofit sector represents an opportunity to serve the least of these.

Gasby Brown: And that’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s so important because, when there is a good mission for nonprofit there is there is nothing comparable to it.

David Horsager: So, when you say think i’m going to hold up a one of your books, too, because i’ve been in business.

David Horsager: Of a spiritual matter what all leaders of faith based nonprofits should know, can you give us that top idea share a bit about this piece that you created so well.

Gasby Brown: Well nonprofits are businesses, even though it’s a nonprofit nonprofit does not mean no profit.

Gasby Brown: And there are similarities and the way corporations and businesses are formed and how they operate and how nonprofits operate, but too often.

Gasby Brown: nonprofits get so bogged down in its mission until some of the infrastructure that’s needed for it to sustain itself.

Gasby Brown: It gets lost and so acting like a business, making sure that there are strategies, a strategic plan which which which they are following.

Gasby Brown: making sure that they know their donors, while corporation know corporations know in those in the consumer service industry, they know their customers.

Gasby Brown: nonprofits need to know their donors, it needs to be donor centered Who are they who is giving to you, and why.

Gasby Brown: And so there’s so many similarities along those lines fiscal responsibility.

Gasby Brown: boards, why are they important for both nonprofits and for corporations and what is the difference between them and there’s little difference, other than corporate board members get paid and nonprofit board members don’t.

David Horsager: You and I don’t.

Gasby Brown: know we.

Gasby Brown: were looking.

Gasby Brown: we’re looking to do something about that right.

David Horsager: I think this is interesting because you know.

David Horsager: Over I think it was over 20 years ago Lisa and I were asked to be on our first board, it was for a nonprofit they were very mission and nature doing this great work in orphanages around the world, they were a young.

David Horsager: A young nonprofit and I still remember, they would come back from these this work overseas to some of the poorest places in the world, we believed in their mission and yet every time we bring up strategy.

David Horsager: Finances funding this, they say, oh no it’ll just work out.

David Horsager: And in two years, they were nowhere to be found not doing anything Michelle because they would not, in essence, as you say, think like a business.

David Horsager: What do you think you know listening, today we have a lot entrepreneurs, we have a lot of moms and dads that are leaders, we have a lot of executive chro CEOs and and so on, and we have a lot of.

David Horsager: nonprofit leaders, but what would you say to.

David Horsager: A nonprofit leader or a business leader you think this is a key to think about how we could work together better in the future nonprofits in business.

Gasby Brown: Well, an old mother in the church that I attended said, if you call yourself a leader and no one is following then you’re just taking a walk.

Gasby Brown: i’ve had like that, and I think john Maxwell picked it up later and others have quoted it who knows where it came from, but it’s worthy quote.

Gasby Brown: I end with business leaders, they need to be involved with nonprofits and philanthropy.

Gasby Brown: That is one of the signs of a civic and business leader, to be able to lead in that regard, while leading the business that they are in.

Gasby Brown: So in historically, we have seen that with the Rockefellers the carnegie’s in this country and others who have led the way it’s philanthropists.

Gasby Brown: And then, it is for the nonprofit leader to be in the position to be trusted that’s why I like what you do so much to be that trusted leader in which people can say a which people can say.

Gasby Brown: We believe that our money, our treasure our time is being invested in the in the right way and invested wisely.


David Horsager: let’s jump to personal for a minute, because you have advised and served on many of the most significant of boards, even in our country, and you advised leaders and presidents and.

David Horsager: So, but let’s jump to you and I, personally, what I found at least is people that I admire as leaders, we might say onstage.

David Horsager: Lead themselves quite well offstage imperfect, as we are what are some things do you have habits or routines that you do to lead yourself well because you’re so asked to be an advisor to others, what do you, what do you do daily to lead yourself well.

Gasby Brown: It is so fundamental for me, first of all I get up early i’m a morning person I get up at 6am.

Gasby Brown: And the other thing that I do and I heard a gym talk about this and i’ve been practicing it a general in the army, I make up my bed, which gives finality and a initiation this day is really starting.

Gasby Brown: Then the other thing is to have devotions I use a scriptural devotion in the mornings, to help guide me and Center me for the rest of the day.

Gasby Brown: And then do a to do list and i’m checking off those things that take place and that needs to take place that are nice to take place and those things that I can do tomorrow.

Gasby Brown: So it really does help to prioritize what needs to be done, and I find that those habits have centered me in a way that i’m focused and with so many.

Gasby Brown: Obvious distractions in the world with emails and ID and all of that, I I tend not to go down rabbit holes as much, and I think that is focus laser like focus on what needs to be done is the linchpin for any leader.


David Horsager: Well, what you know I gotta get we’re going to get back to other kinds of leadership here in our time together, but I also think that something.

David Horsager: When I hear about great leaders that are working hard they’re feeling the weight of board work and other things they often have.

David Horsager: Something else they do some something you know, a hobby or release and this kind of thing and I just have to hold up.

David Horsager: Something from from my dear friend gadsby for those that are watching this on YouTube you’ll have to watch it for the rest of you on podcasts you’re not going to see this, but this is an amazing.

David Horsager: Beautiful painting that is painted by none other than none other than em gadsby brown i’m assuming some of those paintings behind you also are your work of art.

David Horsager: tell us how you got into art because it’s it’s kind of a leadership story you’re self taught, but you know tell us about what that means to you and how you started and kind of what it means to your whole life now.

Gasby Brown: Yes, well all of these pieces behind me, I have created and around 2002.

Gasby Brown: I was having these dreams and visions David they were so pervasive until they never left me.

Gasby Brown: When I was awake I would think about it, driving along think about these visions of painting trees and other objects and, finally, I just woke up one morning and.

Gasby Brown: And announced to my husband, that I was going to start painting, so I just started to paint I had never painted in my life before.

Gasby Brown: And so I went to the arts and crafts store and got paints and brushes and canvas and began my journey.

Gasby Brown: Some people laughed at me because they know me to be in this philanthropic and nonprofit space and others were my cheerleaders who said.

Gasby Brown: Do it, why not, and one in particular said hang up all your art around your House, and I did whether was worthy or not, because I was doing it to be static I just couldn’t.

Gasby Brown: continue to live with what was in my heart in my head so with that.

Gasby Brown: After hanging them around in my husband and I entertained a lot at that time people started coming by and then they began to ask, yes, be, how can we get a piece of your.

Gasby Brown: heart, excuse me it’s making me coffee, as I speak, because it was so incredible for anyone wanting to buy the art that I created.

Gasby Brown: And so my husband, who is a great marketing guru said we’re going to have a show, and we did have my first art show.

Gasby Brown: And the four year of the Jefferson hotel on 16th and him in Washington DC and sold over 30 pieces of my art I didn’t know what I didn’t know so I didn’t even know that was good until.

Gasby Brown: I began to kind of navigate around with a few artists, then they said oh we’re really very fortunate we sell to the three pieces at a show, and so I felt.

Gasby Brown: Extremely blessed by that and continued on the journey, and now I have about 400 of my pieces owned by people across the country in the Caribbean in Canada.

Gasby Brown: And it’s just been a journey of exhibitions that I would never have thought people commissioning me to do pieces, who would in my wildest dreams would never have thought, something like that could happen.

Gasby Brown: So the god journey.

David Horsager: Well, they are beautiful and our team just loves that we’ve gone back and forth with this one between my wife wanting it at home.

David Horsager: And the team wanting it here at the offices and right now it’s here again because I use it to talk about some things that I just I just love it, so thank you for this piece, and we look forward to more.

Gasby Brown: Well, thank you for enjoying it, because without people like you enjoying it, I would just be creating stuff in a vacuum Thank you yeah well.

David Horsager: let’s jump to D and I it’s a big topic dei and justice, some say and belonging these days, but diversity equity inclusion.

David Horsager: You know, we talked about trust and it’s you can’t.

David Horsager: It seems like you can’t have the best kind at least there was that there was a study on diversity.

David Horsager: harbor massive Harvard Putnam study that showed kind of diversity that diversity of many kinds on its own tends to pit people against each other.

David Horsager: Unless you increase trust so we’re all about how do we increase trust to get the best of that we know that you know we know there is greatness in diversity equity inclusion longing justice.

David Horsager: So how do we increase trust, so that we enjoy the best of this beautiful array of diversity but i’d like to start, do you how do you how do you tackle the and I in a way, or how can we as leaders, maybe even think differently about it so that we increase trust and get the best of diversity.

Gasby Brown: boy that’s a great question David and the onus is really more on the learning than the learned in this case in my mind, and so it really comes down to, and I will deal with the racial part of it, because there’s so many moving parts to de ti and justice.

Gasby Brown: There needs to be racial literacy.

Gasby Brown: A curiosity that to learn and openness to learn and to be a lifelong learner about the various historical issues that have led us to where we are now with regard to racial equity.

Gasby Brown: There needs to also be in my mind that kind of deal with three r’s our agencies and what have you but another are would be racial humility.

Gasby Brown: There are some people who feel that they have read a few books and they have watched a couple of movies and documentaries and now they know all they need to know and they may be.

Gasby Brown: attended a couple of ddi trainings and they know they feel that they know all there is to know.

Gasby Brown: About racial reckoning and what’s going on, but that is the wrong attitude the attitude has to be humility, where you putting yourself in the position.

Gasby Brown: To always be open to learning new things, and more, and then the ratio sustainability that you’re in this for the long haul, this is not just a flash point in history, but this is an opportunity to make change and it starts with each of us.

David Horsager: Whereas some places, you see people.

David Horsager: doing these things well like you know.

David Horsager: Furthering racial equity in a where’s it working is there places, you can shine that are that are examples for leaders to look at and say Okay, I never thought of that, I think I could.

David Horsager: Not just could I learned something here, but this would this gives me something tangible, we could start to do in our environment.

Gasby Brown: I think the nba has done a great job in this regard and worthy of studying them bottle of how they’re dealing with justice and equity and inclusion it’s so interesting because everybody’s tall there.

Gasby Brown: In the nba and one of the big optics that we use a lot would be everybody looking over a fence at different heights.

Gasby Brown: And not everybody can see over the fence because of their height and that’s where the justice diversity equity and inclusion comes in.

Gasby Brown: Because the more you adjust the height, the more everyone is in the position to see but true equity is when you remove the fence, all together, and everybody can see where they are, and I think that’s where we talk about that belonging part that you mentioned.

David Horsager: How are they doing that how’s the nba I know i’ve met the CEO of the nba and certainly many of the mana i’m on hype when expert in residence with the amazing CEO of the of the mavericks and she is a an amazing you know, a positive force in this work, but what do you see them doing.

Gasby Brown: Well, I see them utilizing first of all their stadiums with the health disparities during the pandemic.

Gasby Brown: And the stadium’s we’re not being used to any way what foresight in what thought it would be great insight I think they utilized.

Gasby Brown: and being able to say we’re going to take these stadiums and we’re going to try and close the disparity, the health disparity.

Gasby Brown: Amongst minorities with who were getting vaccinated or tested or all of the things that were part of that these are the real things it’s not in the thinking about it it’s in the doing.

Gasby Brown: So when I saw them.

Gasby Brown: pivot along those lines that would be something that I would consider an example and i’d love to hear from you, David about the qualities that you’ve seen in those people that probably helped to lead them to a point where they would think this way.


David Horsager: I think the number one you said curiosity here, I think, was the onus is on the learner either any way you look at it, but I, the great leaders i’ve seen do this and almost anything, well, I have had a humility, I would say humility.

David Horsager: of understanding we don’t know it all a humility of that leads to you know I guess you said it yeah number two was ratio humility yeah it was that exactly I thought you’d said them before so.

David Horsager: it’s just but it’s just plain humility and that leads to racial humility and leads to kind of gender humility.

David Horsager: You know there’s but the thing that i’ve seen work is a start with humility and that if I was going to take one one item um I think the journey yeah.

Gasby Brown: I didn’t mean to cut you off of that it just brought a thought up about i’ve seen so many CEOs and, as I have navigated around and my professional career.

Gasby Brown: And I see the ones who are most effective are those who walk in the room and began to want to meet other people.

Gasby Brown: not the ones who want everybody to flock to them and and pander to them, if you will, because they have power and authority.

Gasby Brown: But the ones that just walk up to people and say hi i’m Jane doe or i’m john doe and.

Gasby Brown: In asked their name and then be interested in other people I find being interested in other people being very important that’s an aside, but.

Gasby Brown: It was just a thought that came to my head that I found as a common thread that CEOs who are most effective have that sense of humility and have the confidence that they can walk in the room and get to know people rather than being the Center of attention.

David Horsager: it’s almost that I think I like what you said it’s almost it’s a healthy confidence that you don’t need like you know these these needy.

David Horsager: You know if you’re a CEO that needs the limelight, or you need this or you are, you need to be right, I just talked to a very good friend of mine phil sterling brilliant gentleman, but he said I no longer.

David Horsager: He said he his whole life as it is now like in these older years, like, I want to be curious about how to solve the right problems.

David Horsager: I no longer want to be right or something like that his his quote was much better and he’s so wise, but I think you know this, this idea of curiosity about others care for others.

Interest in others.

David Horsager: yeah I think all that goes together there’s a whole lot more, we could get say about this, are there are there are structural things.

David Horsager: That you’ve seen that are working, or you would recommend I think you know people i’m on some boards where it’s there’s there’s there’s um you know there’s metrics we are, we are.

David Horsager: here’s one idea that.

David Horsager: In one company they change the equity equation by.

David Horsager: saying you can hire the best person for any job.

David Horsager: Who you feel like is best for that job but.

David Horsager: they’re there has to be a top three and one of those three has to be a person of color and and it it actually interestingly enough, this what some I could see and I could.

David Horsager: See white folks possibly saying well that isn’t you know that, why do you need to do that, or you know this, I just you can see certain things being said and yet.

David Horsager: That just put certain people in the room, it for certain people to be in the room that actually from that group of three, then the number that were hired.

David Horsager: As best of many more of color and the health of the company and the output of the company went up so they they they they found a way to.

David Horsager: get the right people in the room, without without saying you know you have to hire 50% of this or that and I think it was one simple idea I guess i’m just asking your perspective on that and are there other ideas that maybe we should be thinking about that can help.

David Horsager: You know.

David Horsager: start to solve this problem in our own spaces.

Gasby Brown: Well, a couple things, there is a name for that procedure and it’s called the Rooney rule.

Gasby Brown: Where the three our finalists are captured one of the things I I really bristle when someone says we’re trying to find it when you’re talking about those three we’re trying to find qualified.

Gasby Brown: black people who are minorities well they wouldn’t be qualified they they have to be qualified to be one of the three So what are you talking about.

Gasby Brown: So, eliminating that kind of lexicon is very important, I think it’s also very crucial.

Gasby Brown: For the diversity equity and inclusion person to report directly to the CEO and President, that this is not someone down the line that reports to the HR person, but has the importance of being on the Cabinet, if you will.

Gasby Brown: And then also it’s very important, especially for corporations for that executive committee to be able to receive the front line training and the hard nosed training.

Gasby Brown: of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice, and therefore it trickles down from the top, to start with the employees at a ground level that is not the place to start the entry level has to be at the top and i’d also encourage white CEOs to seek training from experienced white.

Gasby Brown: People who have walked in their shoes understand some of their discomfort and challenges, and it can be talked about in a very frank manner.

Gasby Brown: So those would be a few of the things that I would recommend right off the BAT.

David Horsager: yeah those are good ones very good.

David Horsager: Well let’s let’s jump into you again for a moment.

David Horsager: What are you learning now, what are you you’re a continual learner, what do you what are you thinking about these days that’s hitting you and and your.

David Horsager: You know a lot of people, you know I learned this on pockets lot of people ask well, what did you learn back then from that thing, and I am that’s interesting I don’t mind that but I kind of want to hear what you’re learning right now.

Gasby Brown: Well i’ve read a little bit of Adam grants book about think again and I am trying to do that how wrong or how right can I be.

Gasby Brown: and challenging that so that I am not this myopic person that it has to be my way and i’ve gone that journey and I don’t want to be in that space so that’s what i’m learning about me and how I want to be as a person.

Gasby Brown: That i’m reading a couple of books that i’m learning about.

Gasby Brown: People cultures and relating to others i’m reading.

Gasby Brown: Just as I am the autobiography of four for cicely Tyson I just relate to so much of what she has written about and she’s been.

Gasby Brown: She was such a woman of faith which I didn’t know how deep lead her faith is rooted and just her various experiences that are just really phenomenal that led her to be able to do this and release the book at nine and six years old and look amazing I want to be amazing looking for.

Gasby Brown: And then i’m reading.

Gasby Brown: A book now by Jim amanda DJ it’s called half of the yellow sun and it’s about the BF and war, and what led to it in it’s given me great insight into the Nigerian culture.

Gasby Brown: So learning about others, has been very, very important out so read a book recently about the to peak of school.

Gasby Brown: It that’s the name of the book, which is really, really great and learning about the thinking of Midwest people and particularly white males in the Midwest because it’s written by a guy who’s coming from his perspective so.

Gasby Brown: I think just my curiosity has even heightened i’ve always had a curious curiosity about others not being nosy but just being curious and and I think it’s been heightened David.


David Horsager: What.

David Horsager: what’s what’s motivating you these days you keep doing all this great work both in nonprofits and we get a serve together and a university board as well, but what kind of keeps you going, and we in your work.

Gasby Brown: I have found my purpose.

Gasby Brown: hmm.

David Horsager: And my find it.

Gasby Brown: You know I wish I could tell you.

Gasby Brown: What I did, I think, maybe it.

Gasby Brown: contributed to it, because that there was a lot of time to think.

Gasby Brown: And introspect.

Gasby Brown: But right the here in this moment I am so clear that my purpose is to serve and to utilize my experiences and that i’ve been blessed with good and bad.

Gasby Brown: With others, so that there may be a benefit, and that includes the artist well is there is purpose there to express and share with others, so.

Gasby Brown: I have, I had the purpose.

Gasby Brown: in life.

Gasby Brown: love it.

David Horsager: Speaking of motivation and I don’t always ask this one, but you know.

David Horsager: If you’re trying to motivate someone else to do something let’s take a board or a leader or a someone else needs to change that you’re dealing with.

David Horsager: And many people think well motivation is just intrinsic so whatever you want to call it, if you want to inspire them to do something, but you need to move someone to think differently or do something else, how do you motivate them.

Gasby Brown: First, by finding out where they are, because I believe we have to meet people where they are, so to come with a formulaic approach oh i’m going to teach you this, and this is what you need to know.

Gasby Brown: In my mind, is not the most effective approach, the most effective approach is to find out where people.

Gasby Brown: are so, for example on a board that probably has an uneven pattern of understanding of a certain topic.

Gasby Brown: First of all, do a little survey of how they feel about certain things and to get that in its aggregate and to have small group discussions.

Gasby Brown: so that you can have an understanding and they can have an understanding of each other put things candidly on the table.

Gasby Brown: about it and discuss that in a transparent manner, moving from a base of knowledge about your audience is always very, very important instead of coming in with your own agenda that is just one way.

David Horsager: Building on that that would certainly be a huge part of it, thank you for that, how would you go into a board let’s take a new board and build trust.

David Horsager: How would you you build it, but how would you build it amongst each other.

Gasby Brown: Well, through small group interaction, first of all, you know facilitate a lot of board retreats and.

Gasby Brown: doing the kinds of things that help people to get to know one another.

Gasby Brown: I asked them about what what is something on your resume that no one else know that you don’t put on your resume, in other words, what is something about you that you don’t put on your resume.

Gasby Brown: And people come up with some of the most fascinating answers that then connect it’s almost like the thing Francis of Assisi oh I didn’t know you felt that way, we have something in common and that getting to know you and getting to know others is a very important part of trust.

Gasby Brown: The fact that there is for people to be on a board if it’s operated in the right way that you know you’re all there because you’re offering something good.

Gasby Brown: But get to know the people that you are navigating with on a deeper level is, I think, very important and that helps to build the trust.

Gasby Brown: to know that you think i’m Okay, because I climb hills and I do mountain climbing because you do that too, and I just went on a I didn’t I don’t do this, but for a person to say.

Gasby Brown: yeah I just went on a 26 mile hike and the person is you know I did the same thing to me years ago and begin to have that kind of interaction and and speaking in a trustful way.

Gasby Brown: I think about there’s a US trust which Bank of America and literally families school of the lamp therapy longitudinal study that’s done every two years for high net worth individual.

Gasby Brown: And one of the things that they have indicated in this study is that they trust nonprofits to do the work that they cannot do themselves individually.

Gasby Brown: isn’t that a wonderful entry point that speaks to relationship, and I think the bottom line of all that I just said with long winded way of saying it relationship.

Gasby Brown: is so important, when building trust.

David Horsager: Everything of value is built interest we do a process that I am proud of and it’s had significant results in boards and organizations, but it’s something we call the trust shield and it just it it basically.

David Horsager: is a process that helps people build connection and kind of see some of the things you talked about like Oh, you know that oh i’ve had people with totally diverse views a board.

David Horsager: That we’re just not working together on one they felt safe enough to say well i’m a i’m a i’m a Muslim i’m a Christian Lima, this one that at the end of it, they all see each other’s human and they work together in a whole new way it was a it’s a powerful powerful piece and.

Gasby Brown: Yes, indeed.

Gasby Brown: And in fact my book, as you mentioned before, business of a spiritual matter was written for that into relationship between the abrahamic faiths and so it’s very much tied to what we have in common.

David Horsager: it’s a great book to give people a quick overview of of what they would get out of this is business as a spiritual matter and tell tell just give a quick overview as.

Gasby Brown: Well it’s going to tell you about strategic planning from A to Z.

Gasby Brown: And it will give leaders of all of the foundations, as of a year ago that give to various nonprofit organizations it’s going to test leaders on a.

Gasby Brown: Few are chosen, many are called but few are chosen, are you chosen to be a leader and to really stretch yourself to think about what a chosen leader means.

Gasby Brown: How to build a board.

Gasby Brown: there’s an author that I like his name is author Arthur France, where he’s passed away now he wrote a book called mad on this board you don’t.

Gasby Brown: And the dysfunctions of boards it’s something that i’m dealing with all the time clients are asking me to weigh in.

Gasby Brown: And so, in this book, it gives all the right tools to build a board to deal in and in self self evaluate.

Gasby Brown: How to evaluate board members, how to retain board member members and just from A to Z what it’s going to take how to conduct the capital campaign there’s a chapter in the book for Christian schools in particular that says the bake sale will never be enough.

Gasby Brown: conduct an annual giving campaign, all of these kinds of things that sustain a nonprofit with the right tools is part of the business of a spiritual matter.

David Horsager: So what about you you’ve written several books you’ve are you you’re painting is touching lives your leadership, work and nonprofit we’re just touching lives what’s a what’s a hope for the future, for you, maybe it’s bucket list, maybe it’s just a what the hope hope for the future.

Gasby Brown: Well, I hope that we will have come together closer as human beings across the board my heart is so heavy with the division that.

Gasby Brown: I see and the meanness and the evilness that has surfaced itself, and so my hope is when I know people like you, David and so many others, not just white people, but people every ethnicity, who are so interested and eager to make things better that’s my hope.

David Horsager: You have one tip on how we might start.

Gasby Brown: Well, I have several three tips if you’ll Allow me one is awareness what really took place this gets back to the racial literacy, the other one is relationship.

Gasby Brown: When a a head of an organization, who is White says we’re going to have become more diverse, I want to know what their wheelhouse of relationships.

Gasby Brown: But does that look like, do you live in an integrated Community do you have friends that are of different ethnicities, do you make it a point to have vendors, who are diverse do you make it a point to make sure that if it’s appropriate any algorithms within your company.

Gasby Brown: are tested and metrics that tested by diversity equity and inclusion, but I do want to know about that person’s.

Gasby Brown: Life that lifestyle, how they navigate when they are not in the workplace, with people who are others if you, if you will, and then the other thing is commitment, are you really committed to looking at.

Gasby Brown: And all of us unconscious dominance and stereotyping and and the kinds of things that we have somehow in some cases being been.

Gasby Brown: trained to think about can we train ourselves and be committed to do something different, and so, those are the three things aware, so those pillars, I think we can build upon awareness relationships.

Gasby Brown: and commitment.

David Horsager: yeah yep we’re gonna build trust, we need to be thinking about them for sure.

David Horsager: Yes, there is a whole lot here in a very short time i’ve got one more question for you, because it is the trusted leader show, but before we get into that where can people find out more about em ghazni Brown.

Gasby Brown: Oh yes, well, there are a couple of places please go to www dot the gadsby group COM, you can learn all about what we do in the nonprofit space, then philanthropy and then my art is w w w.no permission needed.com.

David Horsager: And we’ll put all both of those spelled out links directly there in the show notes, but.

Gasby Brown: Yes, you know you notice, I said w w.


Gasby Brown: That comes from my broadcast training and you know, I was a reporter for fox television one time, and also for BT so it was so important to.

David Horsager: articulate you’re very good at articulating.

David Horsager: Well, if it’s the last question.

David Horsager: it’s a trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Gasby Brown: I had the great pleasure of working with and under.

Gasby Brown: The President and CEO of the national urban league who price.

Gasby Brown: Who in my mind was the epitome of a great leader.

Gasby Brown: Here was a man who had come from being a New York Times editorial writer, and also a Vice President at the Rockefeller foundation.

Gasby Brown: And was tapped to be the President and CEO of the national urban League and many people didn’t they saw that background, but they didn’t know his passion for equity.

Gasby Brown: That he had been involved in all of his life and he mentored me and encouraged me, and I think he is most responsible, other than my parents for my growth and development as a professional he held on to his integrity and he was just.

Gasby Brown: He was a consensus builder and he also was a very kind person.

David Horsager: Fantastic we could talk for hours.

David Horsager: i’m glad I get to speak to you again before long, but thank you so much for being on the show Thank you Gasby and thank you all for listening, this has been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 45: Phil Styrlund on The 4 Core Character Habits Of Virtuoso Leaders

In this episode, David sits down with Phil Styrlund, CEO of The Summit Group, Consultant, and Author, to discuss the 4 core character habits of virtuoso leaders.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Phil’s Bio:
As CEO of The Summit Group, Phil is a recognized thought leader on Value Creation and Relevance and has worked with some of the world’s largest companies as a coach, mentor, consultant, and advisor to top leaders across a range of industries in 45 countries.

Phil has served on Board of Directors for various companies and non-profits, is a co-founder of The International Journal of Sales Transformation, and is the co-author of the book Relevance: Matter More.

Phil’s Links:
Website: https://www.summitvalue.com/
“Relevance: Matter More” by Phil Styrlund and Tom Hayes: https://amzn.to/3jnaDNd
Phil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philipstyrlund/
The Summit Group: https://www.linkedin.com/company/484280
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SummitGroupInc
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesummitgroup_tsg/

Key Quotes:
1. “My mission in life is to be more deeply confused about more important things.”
2. “Be comfortable with difference.”
3. “Choose experiences over things.”
4. “Don’t spend money you don’t have to buy things you don’t need to impress people you don’t know.”
5. “Buy less stuff and invest in more experiences and your life will be exponentially richer.”
6. “Often the greatest adversities, the greatest wounds in our life, come from following the call of our life.”
7. “In higher ed. we’re installing knowledge but not wisdom.”
8. “Who you are matters more than what you do.”
9. “One of the most important new leadership acumens is the ability to change your mind.”
10. “Let go of your own mistakes.”
11. “If you’re not making mistakes you’re not pushing hard enough.”
12. “There’s only two types of people in the world: people who are struggling with something and people who are faking like they’re not struggling with something.”
13. “Everybody on the planet is struggling with something always.”
14. “You can’t just become an accumulation of techniques.”
15. “Leadership is about being a sense maker, making sense of complexity.”
16. “Don’t try to figure out the rest of your life.”
17. “Seek clarity over certainty.”
18. “When you lose peace of mind nothing matters.”
19. “The greatest thing you can give away is yourself.”
20. “One of the most dangerous things you can do is make a decision based entirely on feelings.”
21. “There’s an epidemic of messy thinking.”
22. “Whenever you are looking at a problem or a situation, assume you could be wrong.”
23. “Constantly update your assumptions because things change rapidly.”
24. “Make and change decisions based on new evidence.”
25. “Wise leaders have the courage to change their mind.”
26. “Look at the messenger before you consume the message.”
27. “We all have intellectual and spiritual glaucoma.”
28. “Be careful of affiliation.”
29. “Surround yourself with nutritious and wise people.”
30. “What does a life well lived look like?”
31. “True love is what remains after being in love is burned away.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Relevance: Matter More” by Phil Styrlund and Tom Hayes: https://amzn.to/3jnaDNd
The Sacred Clay Country Inn: https://www.sacredclayinn.com/
“Human Universals” by Donald E. Brown: https://amzn.to/3yurBxK
Fate Of Fact podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fate-of-fact/id1563421928
“The Second Mountain” by David Brooks: https://amzn.to/2WtJP59

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I am joined today by a very special friend a brilliant human being, he is CEO of the summit group.

David Horsager: he’s been an advisor for companies across 45 countries he’s worked with everything from from you know Cisco to 3am to general mills.

David Horsager: He served on several boards of directors, he was co author on relevance matter more, but this is how I have to open phil you have impacted my life significantly and for those that don’t know 30 years ago.

David Horsager: You were a mentor of mine in a youth program in college about 30 years ago.

David Horsager: And the national youth leaders foundation.

Philip Styrlund: I think it was a national student leadership Dan.

David Horsager: And we went to DC together and now we’ve done more together, but it, I am really looking forward to this, this is a so anyway, welcome to the show phil.

Philip Styrlund: Thank you.

Philip Styrlund: darlin Thank you and, by the way, i’m proud of you i’m proud of what you’ve done with your life and your work and we’re going to talk a little bit about that, but I deeply and proud of you, my friend so it’s good to be with you.

David Horsager: Thank you, thank you, thank you so let’s just you know give any background on you even personal, just a quick quick background So what is it we need to know about phil that we don’t know.

Philip Styrlund: yeah I think the main thing is i’m just i’m a deeply curious guy.

Philip Styrlund: You know me well enough to know that those intros that’s a facade.

Philip Styrlund: My mission in life is to be more deeply confused about more important things and I don’t mean that in a in a flippant way.

Philip Styrlund: The older I get and we talked about this recently David is I.

Philip Styrlund: I don’t i’m not interested in being a right anymore what i’m interested in is really wrestling with the big stuff and I just lived a life of curiosity I would describe myself as a guy who’s kind of stumbled forward i’ve learned from my mistakes because i’ve made a lot of them.

Philip Styrlund: But i’m a blessed guy been married for over 40 years to my best friend and two wonderful daughters that work for my company.

Philip Styrlund: I traveled the world for code and hope to get back on the road, but I tell you what i’m blessed guy and i’m based here in Minnesota and I can’t wait to get back on an airplane.


David Horsager: Well, you can join me this week, if you’d like.

David Horsager: it’s coming it’s interesting it’s very interesting that way, like, I was last week five flights for cities or whatever and it’s certain parts it’s wide open in certain parts or i’m canceling postponing changing so it’s it’s it’s just an interesting.

David Horsager: Take we can have to be ready for change it’s I call this you know this kind of anticipation, we have to be ready for ready for a shift all the time it’s not just this think out strategically and pivot it’s like I need to plan the possible pivots ahead.

Philip Styrlund: Exactly exactly and.

Philip Styrlund: yeah you know, a big revelation for me is just I didn’t realize that I was jet lagged for 40 years I mean that, with all sincerity.

Philip Styrlund: Until i’ve been on the ground free or I didn’t realize how my my circadian clock was, shall we say, a bit out of alignment and so that’s been one of the gifts of covert is to be underground.

David Horsager: Well, you know we’re going to get into some key things but let’s just talk about this for a second because i’ve.

David Horsager: You know, looked up to you i’ve seen you making a huge impact that senior grown a successful company in a way that makes an impact in real lives and real leaders i’ve seen this humility.

David Horsager: But you know I remember you saying a couple things one, the greatest ministry, you can give to his business.

David Horsager: and leadership and and and you know there there’s a lot of people that are lonely at the top, and all these kind of things, but also, you know saw you, you know.

David Horsager: Seeking to lead your family well in the midst of being gone quite a bit and but, but you always want to play more I want to find more and yet you come back and say I needed a break tell me about that.

Philip Styrlund: Well, I think both both are true.

Philip Styrlund: I still want to travel just more purposefully and less.

Philip Styrlund: And what we did, is one of our.

Philip Styrlund: One of our design themes because we’re going to talk about having designed themes for life with our kids is was to show them the world.

Philip Styrlund: And now, they often say that that was more value than a college education, to be honest, was to really travel the world and see that there are many ways to live life.

Philip Styrlund: And to be comfortable with difference so part of you know how we kind of balance those was to bring the kids along and to any young parents out there, I can’t overstate this choose experiences over things.

Philip Styrlund: we’ve heard a lot of debt you don’t need stuff.

Philip Styrlund: What do they say don’t spend money you don’t have to buy things you don’t need to impress people you don’t know you don’t need stuff experiences are what changes your life and I passionately say buy less stuff and invest in more experiences and your life will be exponentially Richard.

Philip Styrlund: Now the flip side of that David knew I talked about it in all honesty.

Philip Styrlund: One of the learnings of life.

Philip Styrlund: Is vectors of book now listen to the title of this book it’s called.

Philip Styrlund: healing H EA Li n G healing the call of your life not heating.

Philip Styrlund: But what the book wisely delved into.

Philip Styrlund: Is that often the greatest adversities the greatest wounds in our life.

Philip Styrlund: come from following the call of our life mm hmm I feel very called to do what i’m doing, because I believe impacting people I believe you are too.

Philip Styrlund: But what happens sometimes is on the backside of that call is wounded enos and, for me it was overwork sometimes over traveling and just literally exhausting myself.

Philip Styrlund: And one of the ironies was I work so hard to be our hero to strangers.

Philip Styrlund: I dislike you fly halfway around the world, you know to do a keynote the people I don’t even know, but often was a stranger to my heroes, which are my family so i’m not going to tell you I got it all right.

Philip Styrlund: Believe me.

David Horsager: I talked about that a lot, you know in our in our world of traveling it’s it’s like a lot of people in our space at least their most loved revered and admired by people that don’t know them at all.

David Horsager: The furthest away the audience and they’re not loved by those closest to them at home and you and I want to be a hero at home.

Philip Styrlund: was at home.

Philip Styrlund: Right exactly.

David Horsager: So one thing about you phil is you keep learning and you know you’ve got a couple master’s degrees you’ve done all these things you’re still running this this company, but you’re back at getting your PhD what are you learning these days.

Philip Styrlund: Well, my goal is to continue to run my company, the summit group, but also to teach in university, I mean that’s really I want to finish well and that’s why I want to do that because I think what I see in higher ED is we’re installing knowledge but not wisdom.

Philip Styrlund: And so it’s interesting gave in the last two years back to stumbling forward in life i’ve stumbled on probably the most.

Philip Styrlund: One of the most significant topics that i’ve always known it was standing right in front of me.

Philip Styrlund: And what it is, is character, science and so it begins with a simple thesis.

Philip Styrlund: Who, you are matters more than what you do.

Philip Styrlund: Now i’ve known that my whole life but i’ve never been able to articulate that single sentence.

Philip Styrlund: And that single sentence captures the essence.

Philip Styrlund: of character science so i’ll sum this up and up four minutes but it started with a good friend of mine, Dr Fred keel lives down lanes bro Minnesota owns a beautiful b&b called the sacred play in.

Philip Styrlund: But also he’s got his doctorate and he studied character, science and for over seven years, he studied CEOs all around the world.

Philip Styrlund: And stratified down to what he called the core four character habits that distinguished what he called virtual also liters virtual also leaders now here’s why this matter because this had a dramatic impact on business results.

Philip Styrlund: So these high character leaders simply dramatically outperformed the lower core child leaders, which we call the self focused, shall we call it the narcissistic leaders, so what he found is being good made them financially great.

Philip Styrlund: Created much higher financial returns 26% higher employee engagement why because top talent doesn’t want to work for jerks.

Philip Styrlund: And third, is lowered corporate risk so here’s all of his research in about 90 seconds he boiled it down to four core character habits and the outcome of these is trust which is your world here’s what he found.

Philip Styrlund: The two of the head integrity, which is telling the truth.

Philip Styrlund: acting consistently with your principles standing up for what’s right and keeping promises it’s that do what you say you’ll do when you say it will do it.

Philip Styrlund: The second is responsibility taking responsibility for your choices now here’s the big one is admitting mistakes and failures and I think one of the most important new leadership as humans right now in this world of Luca is the ability to change your mind.

Philip Styrlund: As I look at truly wise leaders, one of the characteristics is they’ve changed their mind a lot, because the evidence has changed the facts of change the context have changed so, especially for men, sometimes we want to be more right than accurate, because our ego gets in the way.

Philip Styrlund: And the third one is responsibilities just taking accountability to leave the world a better place than you found it so integrity and responsibility, were the two habits of the heart, excuse me, habits of the head.

Philip Styrlund: The two habits of the heart.

Philip Styrlund: forgiveness now there’s an interesting one.

Philip Styrlund: Because usually you don’t hear forgiveness talked about in a business context but number one it’s letting go of your own mistakes all right.

Philip Styrlund: that’s, the key is forgiveness of self so you just don’t become a an accumulation of regrets number two letting go of other people’s mistakes, however, and here’s this, however.

Philip Styrlund: Why is leadership isn’t being soft isn’t about being nice you forgive people when you see that they have acknowledged the mistake.

Philip Styrlund: And i’ve learned from it.

Philip Styrlund: So it’s not about being you know being nice it’s about being accurate does that make sense.

David Horsager: It does one this is part of why we’re on here I wanted this align so well, as you know, one of the pillars of trust his character and i’m I love.

David Horsager: Your work that you’re doing on this, but on that last point, I could see someone if you, if I agree that um great leadership doesn’t always appear Nice.

David Horsager: right but.

David Horsager: I also wonder about being you know carrying something like there are many people that will not ask for forgiveness, as you said, and move in the right direction, and so are you saying carry that then until they do because.

Philip Styrlund: No coach them about the relationship that you have as their leader, as their coach is to let them know this is part of.

Philip Styrlund: Shall we say the rules of engagement, as we work together is we’re all going to make mistakes in fact you’re not making mistakes not pushing hard enough, but the key is, are you learning are you admitting and are you demonstrating it.

Philip Styrlund: that’s the key then both sides win.

Philip Styrlund: So no part of it is that clarity of leadership that needs to be brought to this discussion, and then the fourth one now here’s interesting this fourth one.

Philip Styrlund: Had the highest financial return and it’s compassion.

Philip Styrlund: With it, which is not just empathizing with others, but also help it asking for help when you need it truly caring about others as people not as job titles.

Philip Styrlund: And being deeply committed to other people’s personal development, now what is, why is this tied to financial outcomes what we found is that in business.

Philip Styrlund: it’s found that generally we bring about two thirds of our mental energy to the workplace there’s kind of this third third that’s kind of locked behind the curtain, shall we say, but what’s found is when we get treated like real people.

Philip Styrlund: It taps into this untapped Third, the third this reservoir so in many ways it’s kind of like creating headcount without adding more people because you’re tapping more into this reservoir that already exists.

Philip Styrlund: That just hasn’t been.

Philip Styrlund: leveraged if that makes sense, so there you go integrity responsibility forgiveness and compassion.

Philip Styrlund: Now, this was all built on work that was done in the early 1990s at a book called the human universals.

Philip Styrlund: Where they looked at what were the universal values that cut across all cultures and what are the things that parents taught their children cross culture cross history.

Philip Styrlund: And then from there boiling it down to 67 character habits and then stratified down to these core, for now, to sum this up.

Philip Styrlund: What i’m going to be doing now, with my partner James Robertson, who is the President of our company is we’re doing research to bring this into the world of professional sales, because what i’m interested in is what are these core habits.

Philip Styrlund: For professional selling that correlate to.

Philip Styrlund: Financial outcome to customer commitment and engagement and the fun part is we don’t know yet so we’re not right now, but just to sum this up it’s think of it as.

Philip Styrlund: The character score for your excuse me, the credit score for your character, I was that and just like having a higher credit score financially it brings you rewards.

Philip Styrlund: And having a higher credit score for your character brings you awards why because the outcome of these is your world of trust.

Philip Styrlund: and trust, so I think that’s the docking station between.

Philip Styrlund: What i’m up to and what you’re up to that makes sense.

David Horsager: it’s interesting it aligns so perfectly even compassion as a word is one of the eight pillars of trust which all these things fit together so beautifully which when it’s true real research, it tends to do because truth tends to be truth right so.

David Horsager: But.

David Horsager: But I think there was another there’s something else you said back on the number three forgiveness, you know, we had.

David Horsager: In our one of our last studies we found 92% of people would trust their senior leader more if there are more transparent.

David Horsager: out their mistakes, some people say just transparent it’s not transparent about how cool they are how amazing they are how.

David Horsager: Many words they have it’s this ability to be transparent about your mistakes as a leader is so significant and and to be able to ask forgiveness and show humility and all these things, especially in the new world.

Philip Styrlund: yeah it’s really leading if I look at my.

Philip Styrlund: Deep friendships and relationships deep.

Philip Styrlund: it’s not based it’s really based on our vulnerabilities it’s friends, where we’ve shared our struggles our failures are flaws.

Philip Styrlund: that’s what creates deep relationship and deep impact after traveling for over 9 million miles in the air, which is, by the way, a true number, which is pretty scary anything about it.

Philip Styrlund: After 78 countries David I found that there’s only two types of people in the world.

Philip Styrlund: People who are struggling with something.

Philip Styrlund: And people who are faking like they’re not struggling with something.

Philip Styrlund: Everybody on the planet is struggling with something always not 99% 100 and we just need to remember that because number one and remind us we’re not alone.

Philip Styrlund: And number two is never forget everybody that’s around you is something as something that they’re carrying some burden it’s part of the human experience you just don’t get through without it.

David Horsager: So what’s next for this, so, then the next thing for the character work, I agree with you completely the next thing for the character work is figuring out what the impact on sales.

David Horsager: and sales estimates because that’s.

Philip Styrlund: that’s exactly what exactly is in a again it’s just the way you occupy your space because i’ve always been a verse David to this whole thing in the world of training and development of technique based.

Philip Styrlund: Because what I found in life is you can’t just become an accumulation of techniques I can’t remember like 19 things Okay, so all this is doing is becoming more of who you are.

Philip Styrlund: Like being being yourself, but I would say being your structure itself yeah because a big thing I see distinguishing people, especially in this confusing world is people are structured thinking we’re bringing a framework of thought to their life into their business.

David Horsager: let’s talk about that, because you and i’ve talked about this a lot, I often talk about even decision making gets so much quicker if we.

David Horsager: Have a framework for making decisions, our choices get quicker we get more congruent we lead through people through an exercise that hopefully becomes them, but it really simplifies decision making it’s this.

David Horsager: Decision making values process, but you and I were talking at lunch and I we’ve known this about you, for a long time, but about your kind of design teams process which is one way of making decisions, even as a family and you’re talking about your.

David Horsager: You you kind of change your design theme for this as a family or as husband and wife every five years or so, tell us about that because that’s a framework that really reflects who we really are or or aspire to be and but it simplifies the complex.

Philip Styrlund: So leadership, I think, going forward is about being a sense maker, making sense of complexity, bringing clarity to complexity.

Philip Styrlund: But you can’t give away what you don’t have so you don’t have clarity about yourself how can you be a leader for others, so based on all of the mistakes i’ve made in my life.

Philip Styrlund: Here are some thoughts design team number one is don’t try to figure out the rest of your life just thinking three to five years segments as David brooks says this chapter is your life and look at it in bite sized pieces why, because what you care about over time changes.

Philip Styrlund: Back in my 30s and 40s was the period of acquisition and what it was about more an aspiration there’s nothing wrong with that.

Philip Styrlund: Now i’m in a period of about simplicity, unless this is OK, I didn’t realize how things changed so number one life in five year pieces.

Philip Styrlund: Number two as a leader there’s kind of three design themes that I see going forward that are going to help make sense of things number one is to seek clarity over certainty.

Philip Styrlund: To seek clarity over certainty and a corollary here is to seek clarity over agreement and often a business will sit down and start a meeting and say okay.

Philip Styrlund: let’s talk about this, make sure we agree on it, maybe the different way to say it is let’s discuss this and make sure we’re seeing things clearly.

Philip Styrlund: Because often we can agree on something that’s not true because we can collude if that makes sense, so clarity over certainty, and also as part of this be a thinker, not a knower be careful of people who claim like they know all the answers, right now, in fact, if they do run quickly.

Philip Styrlund: spend time with thinkers not no worse is number two and be a thinker and worry less about knowing and being right.

Philip Styrlund: And third, is be a listener, not a solver.

Philip Styrlund: Because one of the keys to being a strategic thinker and a strategic leader is listening longer and suspense suspending solving.

Philip Styrlund: Especially us men tend to be solved a holic because we’re so worried about impressing each other, I can’t wait to solve this to show you how brilliant I am but true wise mature leadership says, I want to listen longer.

Philip Styrlund: listen more deeply, so I can understand more deeply that’s all that’s hard that’s it’s easy to say it’s hard to do ask my wife, when she says.

Philip Styrlund: You know don’t just listen to me don’t fix me okay so i’m not saying I have these right i’m just saying i’m working on it, but these three things don’t make sense to you then.

David Horsager: Absolutely absolutely How does that look it seeking clarity let’s go back to that all of these makes sense, but how does that seeking clarity over certainty when there is such uncertainty.

Philip Styrlund: So I don’t have the whole answer, but you have learned this when you’re making big decisions.

Philip Styrlund: it’s often the worst time to think about the decision, so one of the things kind of intuitively my wife and I have done.

Philip Styrlund: is just establish some kind of themes of how we want to think about our life in five chapters Okay, and so I think I shared with you some of the themes that we look at right now, our number one,

Philip Styrlund: peace of mind, why.

Philip Styrlund: When you lose peace of mind, nothing else matters.

Philip Styrlund: It just is you carry the weather inside of your mind and when your mind is troubled it’s bad weather peace of mind number two simplicity.

Philip Styrlund: i’ve just looked back on my life and found that if we keep life simple we’re generally much happier, and when life got too complex, by the way, even if it’s good things, by the way.

Philip Styrlund: It caused me great anxiety and I struggle with anxiety complexity equals anxiety and so number two is simplicity three is freedom, this is a big one for us.

Philip Styrlund: back to my love of travel and other things we want to have freedom to to gain more experiences so we’re very careful about anything that will tie us down because.

Philip Styrlund: At this point in our life, we still have many experiences that we want to consume.

Philip Styrlund: The fourth one is relational frugality to have fewer and deeper relationships.

Philip Styrlund: And to be very honest going deeper with deep friends i’m really not that interested in necessarily a new friends i’m interested like you and I get together for lunch, a month ago.

Philip Styrlund: and going back over 30 years together That brings me joy and relational frugality is surrounding yourself with nutritious relationships, not for narcissistic reasons why so you have energy to give away to other people, which leads to the fifth design theme self donation.

Philip Styrlund: The greatest thing that you can give away.

Philip Styrlund: Is yourself and one of the things that brings me great joy and energy right now in the frank factory during coven this is really been a.

Philip Styrlund: A healing force is mentoring.

Philip Styrlund: Just mentoring like five or six people younger than me on zoom or whatever I don’t have to have all the answers.

Philip Styrlund: They just want to know they’re not alone and so anybody who’s listening to this podcast at any age, I would dispassionately say to you, I don’t care if you’re 30 years old there’s some 20 something that needs your attention.

Philip Styrlund: spend time and give it away so I bring those updated, because once you’re clear on your dish decision and design themes now when a big decision arises, you can say okay here’s the decision here’s my design themes, how does it compare and contrast.

David Horsager: So let’s take one we talked about this, you thought oh let’s get a puppy.

David Horsager: you’re right.

David Horsager: And you said someday we might get a puppy or you talked about it but.

Philip Styrlund: So my wife loves newfoundland’s, by the way, so too, I think they’re absolutely gorgeous animals, and so you know, wherever you go there’s dogs these days.

Philip Styrlund: And we saw these puppies these new fee puppies and they were just absolutely adorable so of course it’s the whole thing kicks in or at home let’s get a puppy yeah totally get it, but then went back to what does that do to freedom.

Philip Styrlund: Does that add more complexity, to our life mm hmm maybe.

Philip Styrlund: What does that then due to our peace of mind, do you see where we’re going here, and so it doesn’t so we said no question dog, but just later in life.

Philip Styrlund: right but here’s the key when you create your design principles, then you’re not making decisions based on feelings, one of the most dangerous things you can do is make a decision based entirely on feelings because feelings oh man they’re dangerous because it can change so quickly.

Philip Styrlund: So the criteria before the decision.

Philip Styrlund: Not perfect but it’s helped me because I don’t get swept up them in just feelings based decision making.

David Horsager: Very much that impacted me a whole lot I love it so these kind of frameworks can guide us, they can they can.

David Horsager: make us more congruent living out when we actually believe instead of kind of making a quick decision I remember a CEO we’d worked with, and she was kind of all over the place, and she came up with these five decision making, values and we don’t just like her, we trust her now.

Philip Styrlund: And that’s.

David Horsager: kind of when you have this framework you just okay i’m not just going to make it into one this is how I make my decisions this way everybody knows it.

David Horsager: Quite frankly, would you agree or not perfectly with those five things or not you trust them because they’re making it by a framework, not by a on a whim.

Philip Styrlund: So now, I would call it does create a personal taxonomy of how you think about things.

Philip Styrlund: and

Philip Styrlund: Because messy thinking there’s an epidemic of messy thinking let’s put it that way.

Philip Styrlund: yep and.

David Horsager: So you, you know i’ve known you to be a mentor a mentor of others, a lot of times younger leaders at one point college students and certainly even just advising.

David Horsager: Senior senior senior leaders presidents of countries and companies so, but you know one thing we talked about earlier, as far as the next generation and really anybody, I think.

David Horsager: was how do you know truth today, how do you help them see truth, how do you help them know what trust is I actually remember a piece of research, I looked at the number one question high schoolers are asking.

David Horsager: And this was this was actually a decade ago the number one question they were asking was what’s actually real.

Philip Styrlund: yeah and so yeah.

David Horsager: And even, why do we help.

David Horsager: How do we define you you’ve got Groupthink all over the place, we had very close friends over to our home last night, talking about some different things about you know.

David Horsager: You can talk about anything pandemic people have a view the masking people have viewed Afghanistan people have a view, but what, how do we have, how do we discern.

Philip Styrlund: yeah you’re hitting on probably the topic i’m most preoccupied with right now, because a I don’t know myself and be I think it is the core thing and what would you say, the question was what’s real.

David Horsager: Well, that was the question high schoolers were asking number one question they were.

Philip Styrlund: asked me.

David Horsager: was what is what is actually real and in essence they’re saying what’s true what’s what’s what’s real here, you know, so I think I think we have to figure out how are we going to How are people, especially those of us.

David Horsager: called to advise lead mentor others there’s a massive responsibility to.

David Horsager: discern and help people see the truth, not just what they want to hear or not just.

David Horsager: You know one side or not just group think I think you said something about the I think you call it the murkiness of truthiness.

Philip Styrlund: yeah yeah exactly, so let me give you two answers, one on the business side and then maybe the other one just on.

Philip Styrlund: The broader personal life side that i’m messing around with right now.

Philip Styrlund: On the business side.

Philip Styrlund: We do a great deal of work in healthcare and pharmaceutical but two thirds of our businesses in that space and one of the things that i’ve learned after working in that space for over two decades is that their true experts have been.

Philip Styrlund: schooled and developed under the banner of what’s called basie and thinking, be a why he is lazy and thinking three bullet points number one whenever you’re looking at a problem or situation assume you could be wrong.

Philip Styrlund: So first thing is humility based intellect.

Philip Styrlund: Number two.

Philip Styrlund: Constant constantly update your assumptions, because things change rapidly let’s take a video call it as an example.

Philip Styrlund: there’s a lot of frustration with healthcare officials, because people are saying well how come, you told us this last April, and this now, while it’s because.

Philip Styrlund: code has morphed and changed and we have new data so number two is, as they say in healthcare update your assumptions and then number three is make.

Philip Styrlund: and change decisions based in new evidence and health care they call it snowflakes of evidence, are constantly falling in front of us.

Philip Styrlund: And so I think that’s.

Philip Styrlund: That structured thinking from healthcare can apply frankly in any industry.

David Horsager: Absolutely, I think we have a you know the that the political challenge to this, as you know, is it’s called if you do this year called a waffler.

David Horsager: By called you’re called out I think back, I believe it was a Abraham Lincoln who said.

David Horsager: I hope i’m not the same tomorrow, as I am today, tomorrow, I hope to be better and yet you see politicians and leaders get flayed by the press when they make a decision based on new information that was perhaps even unknowable before.

Philip Styrlund: Right, and you know, given the rate at which the delta variant is morphing five weeks now we’re going to know a whole lot more and make it make a different set of decisions, so I think it gets back to what I said earlier, why is leaders.

Philip Styrlund: Have the courage to change their mind when faced with new assumptions and new evidence so that’s kind of a business construct that’s been helpful to me does that make sense, David it.

David Horsager: Totally makes sense.

Philip Styrlund: Now you and I were talking about in the broader context of life, use the very important word.


Philip Styrlund: If there’s a new spiritual and mental muscle develop I think it’s discernment and boy, let me tell you I don’t have this figured out but here’s why i’m so far in the thinking.

Philip Styrlund: is maybe number one before you consume any message from the media, because all media is biased, because all of us are biased there isn’t a non biased person roaming the planet today.

Philip Styrlund: i’m a voracious reader so every day, I read the big five newspapers Wall Street Journal New York Times Financial Times USA today in the local newspaper why because all media is biased, so I want to balance my biases.

Philip Styrlund: And then I can make my own informed decisions after I have this kind of panoramic view of perspectives.

Philip Styrlund: So.

Philip Styrlund: I think the first thing I found is this before you consume any message coming from anyone in the media or in your personal life look at the messenger.

Philip Styrlund: Before you consume the message.

Philip Styrlund: And look at their life look at their character.

Philip Styrlund: Before you consume the message and ask yourself, is that person attractive is their life attractive accordingly say you know, right now, I need to lose about 13 pounds, so if you’re looking for fitness advice i’m not your guy.

Philip Styrlund: If you’re looking for marriage counseling Johnny Depp probably isn’t the guy to go to Okay, so what i’m saying is look at the messenger before you consume a message.

Philip Styrlund: Design team number to have discernment.

Philip Styrlund: overlay the rule of self interest.

Philip Styrlund: One of the truths of life is I, like you, but I love myself every one of us has self interest and there’s nothing wrong with it it’s called being human.

Philip Styrlund: But look at the self interest of the message and that’ll help you discern the message and the purpose of it, and then the third one is kind of.

Philip Styrlund: What I call the visceral test.

Philip Styrlund: So pick who you would point to as the greatest leader of all time.

Philip Styrlund: For me it’s Jesus of Nazareth his design thinking change the world I believe Jesus was the greatest design thinker in the arc of history So for me i’ll pick Jesus, but others could pink Buddha Gandhi Churchill link and there’s all kinds of whatever you pick yours.

Philip Styrlund: And once you pick that take the message and put it in quotation marks and then put in front of it.

Philip Styrlund: And from in my case i’d say and Jesus said X, whatever that messages and you’ll have a visceral response physically of whether or not you that rings true it’s not an intellectual thing.

Philip Styrlund: it’ll just give you a gut feel of is there truth in that thing.

Philip Styrlund: makes sense in.

David Horsager: It makes sense.

Philip Styrlund: So that’s all i’ve got so far, but this one i’m, this is the one i’m working on right now, because.

David Horsager: Somehow I mean this is how do we get you all we deal with this trust trying to build trust trying to bring people together for good, and this is a massive problem because there’s so many.

David Horsager: ahead of time people come with so many preconceived right i’ll say convictions and they’re so blocked from any ability to open up to even see another person it’s.

Philip Styrlund: Exactly the.

David Horsager: kill the open forward.

Philip Styrlund: We all have intellectual and spiritual glaucoma we look at things through our Frame of Reference it’s it’s called being human.

Philip Styrlund: Recently, I would point people to john meacham john is one of my heroes, because I think he’s just a brilliant structured rational thinker he’s got a great podcast called the fate of facts.

Philip Styrlund: it’s not about it’s not getting in the political state it’s just how we got detached from facts I think it’s an important piece and i’m i’m listening to it intensely as i’m wrestling with this key question and I leave you with one final thought that’s been helpful to me.

Philip Styrlund: Be careful of affiliation.

Philip Styrlund: One of the things i’m doing in my life is affiliating less I don’t mean connecting with people, I want to do that more but be careful with affiliating with groups parties ideologies, because often.

Philip Styrlund: it’s like i’ll use the analogy of it’s like buying a cable package you know, like the entertainment package from a cable company, you may get a lot of channels you don’t want in there okay.

David Horsager: Absolutely.

Philip Styrlund: So what i’m doing as the years, months and years go by, is to be more of an unaffiliated independent thinker in all parts of my life because, once you align with.

Philip Styrlund: A team and ideology anything you kind of take on a lot of things that maybe you didn’t want to sign up for and you create glaucoma.

David Horsager: And here’s the here’s what I see in you that’s been the the winner of that you have some people that say be unaffiliated out of ego.

David Horsager: Out of renegade out of all this it’s almost like unaffiliated with accountability.

David Horsager: You have a core group that you are part of you have others that would say hey phil you know notice this.

David Horsager: right but but that’s almost I mean you just the light bulb for me is we talked about a lot about accountability, but it’s like an affiliation with healthy accountability.

Philip Styrlund: Exactly it’s the balance, but when you’re when you’re not affiliate it’s easier to change your mind is what i’m saying.

David Horsager: So, of course.

Philip Styrlund: Obviously you don’t have this confirmation bias weighing you down.

Philip Styrlund: And I just think that’s an important thing is to to navigate the future with this kind of structured independence of thought.

Philip Styrlund: If that makes sense yep.

Philip Styrlund: within it again surround yourself with nutritious and wise people, because when i’m dealing with tough stuff.

Philip Styrlund: You know you and i’ve talked about having a personal board directors i’ve got five people in my life that I go to when i’m making tough decisions that I lean on their wisdom and not my own perspective.

David Horsager: let’s jump into one more thing I have a load of other questions we get asked, but I want to touch on one more thing we’ve talked about because.

David Horsager: You know leadership its life it’s personal it’s public it’s private it’s it’s tends to be great leaders at home or greater leaders at work often and and also we think about.

David Horsager: It more holistically and one thing you and I talked about last time we were together was you know.

David Horsager: Some of this work, I think, inspired a little bit by David brooks we both respect and you know, is a friend of yours and and and and his work on, I think.

David Horsager: time we talked a little bit about the for conviction, but what convictions, but we, what do we want the rest of our life to look like, what do you want the rest of your life.

Philip Styrlund: is like.

David Horsager: And how do you help others think that way.

Philip Styrlund: Well i’ll use david’s construct because, quite frankly.

Philip Styrlund: During coven one of the questions we all should be asking in this great sabbatical that we were giving given.

Philip Styrlund: How do we want to live the rest of our life which leads to the next question is, what does it have a life well lived look life look like.

Philip Styrlund: What is the good life, what is the definition of that and, as far as I can find the best description and i’ve actually got a written on my board here from David brooke the second mountain.

Philip Styrlund: If you haven’t read david’s brooks book The second mountain read it, the first is the mountain of success it’s about building ego self and wealth it’s about acquisition.

Philip Styrlund: The second mountain is about significance it’s about shutting ego it’s not about you and it’s about contribution, and so what he’s saying is how do you become a second mountain person.

Philip Styrlund: What is wisdom says, because i’ve seen this in life as we’re climbing that first mountain of success.

Philip Styrlund: Often we get knocked off the mountain or we get to the top when we go, this is it and then we’re knocked into now listen to his language were knocked into the valley of the wilderness I love that the valley of bewilderment and he said, some people break down, but others break open.

Philip Styrlund: And when you get broken open you figure out what matters, and so this is getting to the answer of what I think the good life looks like and it’s not my definition is he is it has four as he calls it four core convictions.

Philip Styrlund: The first is faith and i’m not talking about religion and talking about faith, believing in something bigger than your self.

Philip Styrlund: shrinking down to your actual size, because often especially men in our younger years we can be very overinflated so it’s having a same view of self.

Philip Styrlund: and believing in something larger than yourself.

Philip Styrlund: number two is marriage or being deeply committed and marriage is important, I love Dr Jordan peterson he has to create definition of marriage.

Philip Styrlund: it’s being locked in a cell, together with somebody that you want to have a 50 year conversation with doesn’t sound terribly sexy or romantic.

Philip Styrlund: But what he’s saying is it’s being locked in a jail cell of commitment and conviction to each other.

Philip Styrlund: Because what he said as a clinical psychologist if we have a side door will use it Okay, we will use it, because marriage is really hard work and again David brooks talks about true love and committed love.

Philip Styrlund: The kind that i’ve been blessed with by being married to my best friend for over 40 years, and this is his words.

Philip Styrlund: True love is what remains after being in love is burned away okay that’s what he’s talking about when it comes to the commitment of marriage and matters deeply third his community.

Philip Styrlund: He talks about the three rings of Community the first is, they are your inner ring friends and family and remember, we talked about relational frugality and I also think a big part of this inner ring is to love your family as much as you do your best friends.

Philip Styrlund: I mean it sounds kind of goofy but sometimes that’s one of the challenges of the inner ring the middle ring are your Community linkages it’s the school boards it’s the city boards it’s those kinds of things.

Philip Styrlund: And I think that’s the part that’s corroding in our society right now is the loss of that inner ring and the outer ring now is that whole social media sphere.

Philip Styrlund: And I think what’s going on is we’re quoting from the outside, not the inside, right now, and that concerns me but third is do you have a strong sense of community and this is why i’m so obsessed about deep relationships not shallow ones and the fourth conviction vocation.

Philip Styrlund: Finding the work that deeply matters.

Philip Styrlund: i’ve been blessed to stumble into something that I feel called to so i’ve never really working, this is just what I do.

Philip Styrlund: same with you, David I don’t see you working, this is David and you just found your calling wrapped around it Okay, and you know there’s that simple chart when when I speak to young people in colleges well how do you know what you’re calling is there’s four questions.

Philip Styrlund: What are you really good at what are your signature strengths number one.

Philip Styrlund: Number two does the world needed whatever you have.

Philip Styrlund: Three is Is this something you love to do because you can be good at it, but doesn’t mean you like doing it and forth is.

Philip Styrlund: Will the world pay for it.

Philip Styrlund: Because, as my dad used to say, the best way to help the poor is not become one okay.

Philip Styrlund: So you got to do something, a world of pay, for I think that is the best definition i’ve encountered faith marriage community and vocation to me are the four cornerstones.

Philip Styrlund: of life well if.

Philip Styrlund: Not from me.

David Horsager: There yeah well there’s a whole lot of wisdom here I don’t think we should jump off on anything else, today, I think we should have another conversation.

Philip Styrlund: let’s do it.

David Horsager: Though this is fantastic and I just I got so many notes here that i’m thinking about tied to our trust work try to our friendship there’s always new wisdom that comes out of your mouth because you’re continually learning and reading if people want to know more about.

David Horsager: what’s in stumbling.

David Horsager: stumbling stumbling together if people want to know more about you and summit group and your book what you’re doing.

Philip Styrlund: Oh yeah summit value calm.

Philip Styrlund: The book is called relevance mattering more and it’s PS at summit value COM reach out to me let’s be confused together about the big stuff and.

Philip Styrlund: and David one leave you with something are we have a common friend jack for it, and I think you know jack don’t you from the of the battle days.

Philip Styrlund: When jack and I got together we get together for a beer burger every so often and talk about all this stuff.

Philip Styrlund: He left me with a piece that it impacted him and I just want to leave with you and your audience, because I, I think it puts a bow on a lot of things that we talked about today so again I don’t know where he gave got this, but it really resonated with me so let’s close with this.

Philip Styrlund: Finding finding yourself isn’t how it really works.

Philip Styrlund: you’re not a $10 bill in last year’s winter coat.

Philip Styrlund: By the way, you’re also not lost.

Philip Styrlund: Your true self is standing right there buried beneath all the cultural conditioning other people’s opinions and inaccurate beliefs, that you came up with as a kid that you know, believe in as an adult.

Philip Styrlund: So really finding yourself is actually returning to yourself.

Philip Styrlund: it’s an unlearning.

Philip Styrlund: it’s an excavation.

Philip Styrlund: it’s going back to remember who you were before the world got its hands on you.

Philip Styrlund: And that’s one of the few things I know for sure is that makes sense it’s an unlearning it’s an excavation it’s not a bucket of techniques, thank you, David I hope it’s been fun.

David Horsager: and helpful Thank you so much Thank you everyone for listening, this has been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 44: Kevin Sheridan on The Top 3 Ways To Recognize Others

In this episode, David sits down with Kevin Sheridan, New York Times Best Selling Author, Keynote Speaker, and Employee Engagement Expert, to discuss how leaders can better engage their employees and the top 3 ways to recognize others.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Kevin’s Bio:
Kevin Sheridan is an internationally-recognized Keynote Speaker, a New York Times Best Selling Author, and one of the most sought-after voices in the world on the topic of Employee Engagement. For five years running, he has been honored on Inc. Magazine’s top 101 Leadership Speakers in the world, as well as Inc.’s top 101 experts on Employee Engagement. He was also honored to be named to The Employee Engagement Award’s Top 100 Global Influencers on Employee Engagement for three consecutive years, as well as being designated as a Senior Fellow at The Conference Board.

Having spent thirty years as a high-level Human Capital Management consultant, Kevin has helped some of the world’s largest corporations rebuild a culture that fosters productive engagement, earning him several distinctive awards and honors. Kevin’s premier creation, PEER®, has been consistently recognized as a long-overdue, industry-changing innovation in the field of Employee Engagement. His first book, Building a Magnetic Culture, made six of the best seller lists including The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today. He is also the author of The Virtual Manager, which explores how to most effectively manage remote workers.

Kevin’s Links:
Website: https://kevinsheridanllc.com/
“Building a Magnetic Culture” by Kevin Sheridan: https://amzn.to/3y6fo1Z
“The Virtual Manager” by Kevin Sheridan: https://amzn.to/3D7ljaz
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kevin.sheridan.54540
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevinsheridanllc/?hl=en
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kevinsheridan12
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsheridan1/

Key Quotes:
1. “I’m a creature of habit.”
2. “Employees that are engaged are willing to exert extra effort.”
3. “Recognize your employees.”
4. “Great bosses create engaged employees.”
5. “Thank you gets you 20% of the value of recognition.”
6. “Great managers who create great engaged employees genuinely care and they trust.”
7. “Fun is the missing driver of engagement.”
8. “The #1 reason people quit their jobs is job stress.”
9. “It’s so important to adopt fun into your culture.”
10. “Trust is the secret sauce to this virtual relationship.”
11. “Do a job that you’re passionate about.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Building a Magnetic Culture” by Kevin Sheridan: https://amzn.to/3y6fo1Z
“The Virtual Manager” by Kevin Sheridan: https://amzn.to/3D7ljaz
20 Non-Negotiables For Hiring blog post: https://kevinsheridanllc.com/2015/03/the-non-negotiable-list-20-red-flags-for-interviews/
“Good To Great” by Jim Collins: https://amzn.to/2WcU4uz
“Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand: https://amzn.to/3gjiOse

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I got i’ve got a special guest today, he is on his journey to climbing seven of the tallest that the tallest mountain on every continent and that’s not his main thing, though he’s.

David Horsager: graduated from Harvard he’s a his clients are even American Airlines Harvard and.

David Horsager: Walt Disney corporation he’s got some amazing books his first book was a New York Times Wall Street Journal.

David Horsager: and USA today bestseller we’re going to talk about that book and his one of his other books, because i’m very interested in how you’re building trust virtually and hybrid these days as well, but before we go any further welcome Kevin Sheridan.

Kevin Sheridan: Thank you so much, David pleasure be.

Kevin Sheridan: On your on your podcast.

David Horsager: Well, I really I really appreciate it and i’ve heard great things we connected from coach Johnson and really, really appreciate that connection, but before we go too far just give us a little background on you.

Kevin Sheridan: So i’ve had a wonderfully eclectic career, I began in commercial banking I worked for chase Manhattan Bank as an auditor at 22 years old and they flew me to about 55 countries to do audits and then I morphed into investment banking I worked at Goldman Sachs for.

Kevin Sheridan: A little bit, and then I realized that i’m an entrepreneur, and that I am.

Kevin Sheridan: Somebody that wants to start companies, so I found it three different companies and sold the last one back in 2014 which was great and.

Kevin Sheridan: Then I wrote by two books, he mentioned David and you know that that first book that I wrote building a magnetic culture.

Kevin Sheridan: hit, as you said, six of the bestseller list, and when that happens, and you get the moniker New York Times bestselling author author you become a speaker and so that’s what I do i’m a keynote speaker at conferences.

Kevin Sheridan: and obviously the pandemic had a lot of those conferences canceled but things are turning around and,

Kevin Sheridan: and the the silver lining to this pandemic for me was that you know in March of last year.

Kevin Sheridan: People were calling me was like Are you the author, the virtual manager, which was my second book, because everyone went remote and, like my friends are calling me saying, are you pre ship, how did you know this is going to happen and i’d love to Sam a soothsayer but.

Kevin Sheridan: yeah that book has never been more relevant.

David Horsager: never been more relevant let’s in let’s get into those books, but before we do one thing i’ve noticed about the leaders, I have on is great leaders.

David Horsager: You know, are leading themselves well, you have any personal habits routines yourself daily you get up you got it you’re speaking to others, you got to be have a full tank to share wisdom you’re writing you’re.

David Horsager: climbing mountains, what do you what are you doing daily whether it’s health physical, mental what what are you doing to to stay fresh relevant capable and just just you know leading yourself well.

Kevin Sheridan: yeah it’s so interesting you bring that up because i’m a creature of habit and I get up early typically i’m up at 530 and before I get out of bed I do for stretches.

Kevin Sheridan: I stretch my legs and my back and just a great way to wake up in the morning and then, I have a couple of glasses big glasses of water.

Kevin Sheridan: And then I make my coffee, which is great, and I also periodically throughout the day i’ll get about two and a half hours of workout in just to say stay in shape i’ve cut carbs out of my diet, which is a great way to you know just keep the weight down I try to get outside.

Kevin Sheridan: and especially on days like today, I live in evanston Illinois and it’s just nice to get some vitamin D through the sunshine and live four blocks from lake Michigan so it’s nice to walk along the way, so Those are some of my regular routines to.

David Horsager: That I love it two and a half hours of exercise throughout the day what How does that work, what does that look like.

Kevin Sheridan: Well it’s with a lot of stretching i’ve got a bike in my apartment here indoor so you know I watch.

Kevin Sheridan: I watch my Chicago cubs lose another game.

Kevin Sheridan: While I worked out and then i’ve got an ab cruncher, which is a great way to keep the abs in shape my building here is.

Kevin Sheridan: Has a fitness Center which I try to do the treadmill and i’m actually packing i’m on my way to Florida.

David Horsager: Alright let’s jump I love that you know this is interesting, what you said about a routine so often, when I talk to leaders sit next to leaders and speech, especially ones that are healthy.

David Horsager: Not not just physically but emotionally and mentally and everything else, they have a routine they get up, they have a physical part to their to their routine for sure so very interesting and and carbs are are evil that’s for sure.

David Horsager: But that’s that that’s let’s let’s jump into the books let’s jump into a building a magnetic culture everybody knows we’re going to share your website and everything how to get that and how to find out more about you, but, but you know you talk about.

David Horsager: I was interested in this your take on employee engagement, we talked about you can’t get engaged without increasing trust, but.

David Horsager: you’ve got to a way of defining employee engagement, give us give us a little glimpse of that and then, and then I want to touch on some at least of the 10 engagement drivers.

Kevin Sheridan: Right yeah employees that are engaged are willing to exert extra effort they’re completely committed to their employer that’s the second trait of employees they’re not likely to quit even in times of adversity and they are also.

Kevin Sheridan: magnets to create engagement with their co workers.

David Horsager: So how do you get them there, how do you take them from let’s say disengaged to engage, what are the, what are the key drivers, what are the key words what are some things we can do tomorrow and.

David Horsager: I hope everybody got grabbed the book building a magnetic culture but let’s get into what what can we, what can we start using right away that would help us increase engagement our teams.

Kevin Sheridan: So when I wrote building a magnetic culture, I had spent 35 years as a management consultant.

Kevin Sheridan: Doing employee engagement surveys, so we would survey employees for our clients and ask them, you know what rocks your world what engages you and what is disengaging it.

Kevin Sheridan: So I have 35 years data that I could turn to my research analysts and say okay i’m going to write a book.

Kevin Sheridan: and never dreamed it wind up on six of the bestseller list, but I said I want you to do a key driver analysis and show me definitively, what are the top 10 drivers of engagement.

Kevin Sheridan: So if the bogey is we want employees to be engaged, what are the drivers of engagement, so statistically he ran a key driver analysis and Lo and behold at the top of the list recognition.

Kevin Sheridan: David you’re doing a great job keep up the great work David I couldn’t help but notice what you did fantastic keep doing what you’re doing.

Kevin Sheridan: recognize employees number two driver career development David where do you want to be in six months, for your career and how can I help you get there number three driver and actually number three is actually number one who’s your boss faded.

Kevin Sheridan: who’s your boss do they do number one and number two because great bosses create engaged employees great bosses recognize employees and great bosses care about your career develop those are the top three drivers is pay important yeah but it’s not the be all and.

Kevin Sheridan: You want to make sure that you’re paying people fairly or maybe a little bit above wage, but the pay is not even in the top tip.

Kevin Sheridan: Unless, of course, you’re not treating people fairly and they get you know pick up the paper and then realize oh my God that competitor of ours is paying me more money paying more money for my job.

Kevin Sheridan: So pay is not the be all end all communication is on the list, and so, hopefully, that helps.

David Horsager: yeah love it is there any tips, you have around how to recognize.

Kevin Sheridan: Absolutely so it’s so funny bring this up, because people people evd with a thank you and thank you get to 20% of the value recognition, so what you want to do is three things when I say David, I noticed what you did you did a great job on that.

Kevin Sheridan: Secondly, I want to let your peers know what you did and i’m an openly communicate why what you did is so intrinsically important to our organization so give them the meaning.

Kevin Sheridan: as to why and then you want to do the third thing which was give some form of restitution David because of what you did here’s $100 gift certificate to your local restaurant and make it a restaurant, that is not a well known it’s like the.

Kevin Sheridan: Family owned business typically Italian say take your family to bartos dinners on me.

David Horsager: I love it.

David Horsager: I love it in our work, we talk about spying people be be specific personalize that if you can and make sure it’s authentic or nobody knows it doesn’t matter at all so.

David Horsager: When we talk about appreciating people recognizing people, we want to spawn but I mean this this flows right without noticing and.

David Horsager: letting the peers know openly and giving something that they would value, and I think that family restaurant what a great idea everybody needs to eat right so let’s let’s go from there would tell us about you know you said something in the book about the secret sauce.

Kevin Sheridan: Secret sauce yeah the secret sauce is just genuinely caring you know great managers who create great engaged employees just genuinely care and.

Kevin Sheridan: They trust, so they trust their employees to do a great job, but you know so many.

Kevin Sheridan: Unfortunately, so many managers are viewing their employees as human resources or cogs on the wheel of productivity, as opposed to human beings, so take the you know the secret sauce is just saying you know.

Kevin Sheridan: caring about what this person is is passionate about so they ask you David what’s your passion outside of work.

David Horsager: Well, my my four kids and my wife, I mean families a big deal.

David Horsager: I love to fly fish.

David Horsager: and

Kevin Sheridan: You and I.

Kevin Sheridan: Can I share a lot I love the downhill ski.

Kevin Sheridan: Okay, well, two of my passions are fly fishing and in downhill skiing and at 60 years old, I still have game on the slopes.

Kevin Sheridan: So, the reason I asked you is is that if you’re a manager someone you ask somebody what’s your passion so.

Kevin Sheridan: Knowing that if I was your manager David, knowing that fly fishing is your passion, I might pick up a book at Barnes and noble.

Kevin Sheridan: If it still exists.

Kevin Sheridan: You know offline on the bitter river have your fish the bitter root in Montana.

David Horsager: I have not.

Kevin Sheridan: Oh, my God you’ve got to get out there.

David Horsager: I did, is, I mean the end of the week.

Kevin Sheridan: I did the cycle I the better route there, there are six different trout in that river and I did the I caught a rainbow I caught up a cutthroat I caught a cut bow.

Kevin Sheridan: I caught a rookie I caught a Brown and then I caught the most elusive trout in the world, you know which one that is the bull trump.

Kevin Sheridan: hmm most fly fishermen will never catch a blue a bold trout in their life and I came off at river and I I married into a family of five fishermen who are much better than I, and when they learned that I did the cycle, none of them had ever done the cycle.

Kevin Sheridan: And I did so.

Kevin Sheridan: yeah you want to put the better route on your list.

Kevin Sheridan: fun.

Kevin Sheridan: So, so what I would do is your manager is I pick up a book i’m fly fishing or the bitter root river and I just leave it on your desk saying with a post and they’ll say David I thought you’d enjoy us, you know how how meaningful, that is an employee.

David Horsager: Tell me this you said some you some other things in the book actually talked about fun also what’s, how do you do it, I mean people well we we got to work we get to give value, what about what’s the same time about fun.

Kevin Sheridan: We have fun as the thought is the missing driver of engagement, given the fact that the number one reason people quit their jobs, and this was.

Kevin Sheridan: So true, especially after this pandemic we’ve been through the the anxiety at work has never been more height.

Kevin Sheridan: So what better recipe to prevent people from quitting than fun the number one reason people quit their jobs is job stress, so what better way to alleviate that job stress then instilling fun, so we would do all types of things that Mike if I company.

Kevin Sheridan: HR solutions you know somebody was joining on their first day we’d have a team meeting we do onboarding we would actually tell the person that they had to stand on the conference room table and singing their favorite song which, of course, was a joke, but they perform.

Kevin Sheridan: And we never made them do it, but we pretended.

Kevin Sheridan: Then we asked them, you know what do you like to do to have fun, we would have cotton candy day we shut the company down every two weeks to go over to millennium park he can have ice cream.

Kevin Sheridan: or go to navy Pier and ride the Ferris wheel it’s just it’s so important to adopt fun into your culture.

David Horsager: I love it tell you know the one other thing that I think is a challenge for people and you talked about in the book recruiting the right hire.

David Horsager: How I mean hiring right and hiring wrong that is costly, how do you but you know before you, you tell you a lot of building the magnetic culture and these ideas have fun and you know ask them what their passion and recognize people, but how do you hire right.

Kevin Sheridan: This is the single greatest mistake that companies make is they, they accept a.

Kevin Sheridan: They see warning signs in the interview process.

Kevin Sheridan: And they ignored.

Kevin Sheridan: don’t ignore them if you go to my website you go to my blog there’s a blog that I did called the non negotiable list.

Kevin Sheridan: The top 20 things that companies ignore that they shouldn’t ignore. So some of the warning signs, you know can’t look me in the eye.

Kevin Sheridan: that’s a problem that’s a trust issue or.

Kevin Sheridan: And certainly in different cultures, there are some exceptions.

Kevin Sheridan: If you ask somebody a question and an interview, and they give a quote unquote answer that doesn’t answer your question that’s a problem.

Kevin Sheridan: I want to hire people that not only listened to the question that I asked them that directly answer it that’s on the non negotiable list as well.

David Horsager: Well, these are some great ideas lots of lots of ideas three ways to recognize and asking people about their passion.

David Horsager: Making it fun at work non negotiable is go to the website, it is kevinsheridanllc.com let’s jump over to the new book, you know.

David Horsager: People are having a big challenge in this virtual environment i’ve got a.

David Horsager: big international pharmaceutical that we’re working with they’ve got you know people in Japan and US and Europe and you’ve got the.

David Horsager: Maybe the managers in Europe and they’re managing someone in Japan, they may be, see them once a year, or not even that.

David Horsager: How do you, you know, all we do without of the Institute is how is trust right, we believe, lack of trust of the biggest cost in organizations So how do we increase trust in a virtual or a hybrid environment, how do we build trust in that environment.

Kevin Sheridan: Well it’s just it’s you know it’s palpable that I wrote that book 14 years ago and it’s never been more relevant but trust is the secret sauce.

Kevin Sheridan: To this virtual relationship So how do you build trust you show compassion is show compared you show concern about what that virtual employees dealing with you have regular check ins.

Kevin Sheridan: So communication is the critical element to success with this virtual relationship so you need to make sure that you have instituted in your outlook calendar a regular checkup at least once a meet once a week and you know daily communication.

Kevin Sheridan: You know, and maybe quarterly visits, if this person is remote somewhere else you know take them out to that family restaurant, you know, once a quarter, if you will.

Kevin Sheridan: include them in all relevant meetings and Those are some of the ways that you build that that trust.

David Horsager: So what do you, what do you were working on these days, what are you learning now.

Kevin Sheridan: Oh it’s interesting.

Kevin Sheridan: You know this.

Kevin Sheridan: When I was doing all those keynote speeches prior to the pan back and I always talked about you know do a job that you’re passionate about.

Kevin Sheridan: The pandemic threw a wrench into a lot of those events, and so I would talk in my speeches prior to.

Kevin Sheridan: Prior to the pan damage like you know i’ve even thought, maybe this will get old I don’t want to travel as much, and you know what do I want to do my next career um I want to write the lyrics to country music.

Kevin Sheridan: So, with the pandemic I pivoted and i’ve actually written six songs I write the lyrics I don’t write the music.

Kevin Sheridan: i’ve never had more fun David because I grew up in northern Wisconsin so I grew up on country music.

Kevin Sheridan: And my first song is called please tell me why and it’s about getting older and it’s certainly it’s not about me but it’s like the first stanza.

Kevin Sheridan: To my first country music science, please tell me why, as I get older the things that are supposed to be soft get hard in the things that are supposed to be hard get soft please tell me why.

Kevin Sheridan: Please tell me why I just discovered the first Gray hair on my chest I can’t help but wonder how far south, this will go.

Kevin Sheridan: it’s all about fun.

David Horsager: it’s fun.

Kevin Sheridan: Though i’m in the process of finding a musician to write the music to my six songs.

David Horsager: All right, what a pivot hey the pandemic, you know that getting away brought a lot of a lot of good about it may force people to be creative.

David Horsager: To maybe get live out more what they’re passionate about it, forced you think about all the way back to Isaac Newton when he got away from the you know the black plague or bionic plague, you know, is when he a lot of his work on calculus and everything else came out of this time.

David Horsager: Forced you know moving away right so.


David Horsager: that’s that’s fascinating what what’s your what’s your biggest hope for the future, what do you hope for in the rest of your life, you want it, you got to get Everest done this year, and you know.

Kevin Sheridan: i’m just i’m looking forward to moving to Florida, and just being in a.

Kevin Sheridan: loving relationship and staying healthy and eating healthy and.

Kevin Sheridan: i’m on my bucket list, I want to learn to play the guitar I love to sing So when I moved to Florida i’m gonna buy a guitar and you know teach myself.

David Horsager: Great there you go and you’ll be you can just jump up to nashville once in a while.

David Horsager: Do you have an outside of your own books, you have a favorite book or resource right now.

Kevin Sheridan: Well, I tell you, Jim Collins good to great changed my life when I read that book, I was like that is just seminal and i’ve actually shared the stage with him several times.

Kevin Sheridan: And so business wise that’s my favorite book my favorite.

Kevin Sheridan: Book you know actually.

Kevin Sheridan: was written by a Russian woman Ayn Rand and that’s atlas shrugged yeah and.

Kevin Sheridan: What a great book.

David Horsager: Lots of stuff here any last any last tip or takeaway before we let you go to get ready to move to Florida.

Kevin Sheridan: You and I have emailed each other right.


Kevin Sheridan: So, you know how my signature line is.

David Horsager: What does it say.

Kevin Sheridan: have fun.

Kevin Sheridan: And that came from my wonderful.

Kevin Sheridan: redheaded 91 year old grandmother she never said goodbye to anyone she’d raise your left hand and she’d say have fun and I hope you do David.

David Horsager: Thank you so much Well, this is, been a great conversation Kevin shared and remember kevinsheridanllc.com to find everything about Kevin all of his books takeaways resources and everything else.

David Horsager: And we wish you the best on that next big mountain both moving to Florida and Everest and with that this has been the trusted leader show thanks for joining us and stay trusted.

Ep. 43: Cheryl Bachelder on Why Leadership Should ALWAYS Be A Burden

In this episode, David sits down with Cheryl Bachelder, Former CEO of Popeyes® Louisiana Kitchen, Inc., Multi-Board Member, and Author, to discuss why leadership should ALWAYS be a burden.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Cheryl’s Bio:
Cheryl Bachelder is a passionate, purpose-led business leader — the former CEO of Popeyes® Louisiana Kitchen, Inc. Cheryl is known for her crisp strategic thinking, a franchisee-focused approach, and superior financial performance. Guided by the servant leadership thinking of Robert Greenleaf, she believes highly caring, collaborative leaders with big ambitions for the enterprise, not themselves, generate the conditions for people to perform their best work.

Cheryl served as CEO of Popeyes® Louisiana Kitchen, Inc., a NASDAQ traded company with over 2,600 restaurants in 26 countries, from 2007 to 2017. The story of Popeyes success is chronicled in her book, Dare to Serve: How to drive superior results by serving others. During her tenure, Popeyes’ stock price grew from $11 to $61, at which time the board sold the company to Restaurant Brands International Inc. for $1.8 billion dollars or $79 per share in March, 2017.

Cheryl’s earlier career included brand leadership roles at Yum Brands, Domino’s Pizza, RJR Nabisco, The Gillette Company and Procter & Gamble. Cheryl serves as a director on the boards of US Foods Holding Corp. (USFD), and Chick-Fil-A, Inc. She sits on the advisory board of Procter & Gamble’s franchising venture, Tide Dry Cleaners. She is a board member of WorkMatters, a faith-based leadership development initiative, and the Metro Atlanta Salvation Army Advisory Board.

Cheryl holds Bachelor and Masters of Business Administration degrees from the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. She is married 40 years to Chris Bachelder and they have three grown daughters, two terrific son-in-laws, and four handsome grandsons. Cheryl and Chris reside in Atlanta, Georgia and attend Buckhead Church. They are avid learners, fans of the classical education movement, and can always be found reading a good book!

Cheryl’s Links:
Website: https://www.cherylbachelder.com
“Dare To Serve” by Cheryl Bachelder: https://amzn.to/3iMZPYJ
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CABachelder
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherylb
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cheryl.bachelder.7/

Key Quotes:
1. “By far, my father was the single greatest mentor on my life and business career.”
2. “No one wants to lay people off as a leader. But it’s how you do it and the spirit with which you do it that makes all the difference in the world.”
3. “Leadership should be a burden.”
4. “I believe people and resources have been entrusted to my care as a leader and my responsibility is to steward them well.”
5. “The single talent of leaders that is underdeveloped is listening.” – Robert Greenleaf
6. “The answer is always in the room.”
7. “The biggest obstacle to a dare to serve leader is yourself.”
8. “Humility is the thing that we are quickest to notice the absence of in others and most unlikely to notice the absence of it in ourselves.” – C.S. Lewis
9. “Our nature is inclined to think of ourselves first.”
10. “Servant leadership is only an aspiration. You can never climb it.”
11. “Count others as more significant than yourself.”
12. “Love is an action verb.” – Joel Manby
13. “Love is demonstrated action.”
14. “Time is the currency of care.”
15. “You cannot demonstrate love and care without spending time with people.”
16. “You must know the people you lead.”
17. “We just need to be the leader we’d like to work for.”
18. “I want to be an investor in human beings and helping them reach their potential.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Dare To Serve” by Cheryl Bachelder: https://amzn.to/3iMZPYJ
“The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry” by John Mark Comer: https://amzn.to/3xIYfez
“The Book Of Lost Names” by Kristin Harmel: https://amzn.to/3xHcArK

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
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Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it is a privilege today to have someone so on brand with trust and all the work we do.

David Horsager: cheryl bachelder she was in charge of a major turnaround at popeyes and I think stocks, if I noticed right rose from.

David Horsager: 11 to $61 and then sold at $79 but she’s a fan like we are of servant leadership she’s served in leadership CEO interim CEO Pier one.

David Horsager: Imports she was President kfc she serves on boards are served and leadership and everything from Procter and Gamble to yum brands.

David Horsager: and a host of others also I had the opportunity to speak at a work matters event that I I know you’re on the board or have been at work matters, but a huge huge grateful, welcome to cheryl bachelder.

Cheryl Bachelder: So good to be with you.

David Horsager: Thank you so much well you know your your your leadership and resume what we say around here’s is it’s amazing you’re on stage presence, but offstage to over 4040 years of marriage.

David Horsager: Three amazing kids grandchildren and I just love your your onstage and offstage presence of faith family friendships and leadership, but maybe you give us a little background of cheryl from a perspective that not everybody knows.

Cheryl Bachelder: Oh, I usually start with the fact that i’m the oldest of four children and that’s a tribute to my parents state and they raised four of us to be business leaders in the marketplace.

Cheryl Bachelder: They raise four of us to be people of faith they raised four of us who have been married 30 plus years each.

Cheryl Bachelder: And there we have 13 children amanda sense, so I was last and know that i’m blessed by that incredible foundation, a strong family and my parents and my grandparents.

Cheryl Bachelder: You just really invested in bringing us to the prep through the preparation of leadership right, what are your values what you believe, how do you act, how to use steward things.

Cheryl Bachelder: That is just the very important foundation of my entire life so who doesn’t make me today, it makes me a very family oriented.

Cheryl Bachelder: person focused on leadership developed in both my home and my work as you said, we have been married 40 years we have three grown daughters two terrific son in laws and four very handsome grandsons.

David Horsager: I love it well you know you said this in the book we’ll go we’ll get to leadership we’ll get to the book dare to serve, and all that, but you know you, you made a comment about Daddy Max and how he taught you.

David Horsager: Some keys to leadership that’s your father, maybe, give us one tip from Daddy Max you know the people that hear me every time I speak I share, even though we share the research and all that I tell a story of impact of my father so.

David Horsager: I I want let’s hear one from you.

Cheryl Bachelder: Sure, by far, my father was a single greatest mentor on my life and business career walked it with me right up till the last week, he was with us, he has something in 10 years ago and so he was my mentor I went to him for counsel.

Cheryl Bachelder: i’ll give you one fun story and then maybe one more principles story.

Cheryl Bachelder: I was at lunch with Tom Monaghan, the founder of dominoes pizza and he asked me to be his chief marketing officer and he literally wrote the offer on a napkin push across the table and said I want you to work with me, I said.

Cheryl Bachelder: That is such an honor i’m so excited all that you know I Monday he goes no you won’t you let me know right now.

Cheryl Bachelder: And he basically negotiated like he did with baseball players, and so I said, well then, I need to go out in the parking lot make phone call and I left the lunch table I might call my dad.

Cheryl Bachelder: I reviewed the offer terms you know why this wasn’t a good fit and a good opportunity with my dad and I came back and I accepted the job now I wasn’t young at that point, I was a full grown adult raising my own children but.

Cheryl Bachelder: that’s the degree of wisdom and counsel, I saw my dad that it was always worth five minutes to go check it out with them and run the tracks.

Cheryl Bachelder: Now my dad taught a lesson nearly every day in our home about business and about how you conduct yourself in life.

Cheryl Bachelder: So the one that stands out to me the most is he opened and ran factories in Asia, for a very long time in the electronics industry.

Cheryl Bachelder: And the business would have peaks and valleys, which means in factories that means you’re hiring people or you’re laying people off.

Cheryl Bachelder: And so there would be times of real crisis for him as a leader when he had to close a factory or.

Cheryl Bachelder: You know, reduce the team, reduce the staff and what I would see it’s been pacing the floor sweating looking almost noxious you know from the decision at hand, and you would share every bit of that.

Cheryl Bachelder: And that particular night that I remember, he was proposing a plan in penang Malaysia of people that he knew we’re really.

Cheryl Bachelder: going to be hurt by that their families are going to be hurt by that decision, it was a very poor community and he had come to love these people and he said cheryl he said, I have to make these decisions, but they should just make you sick to your stomach.

Cheryl Bachelder: When you.

Cheryl Bachelder: make a decision that harms families and at you know how do you forget that, I mean I remember that for 40 years since that happened and.

Cheryl Bachelder: It really it’s like an embedded principle and how I lead is yes, I have made some very difficult decisions and and had some very tough conversations with people, and I have weighed people off, no one wants to do that as a leader.

Cheryl Bachelder: But it’s how you do it and the spirit with which you do it that makes all the difference in the world and that principle I used at pop is when we had.

Cheryl Bachelder: One layoff and the 10 years that it was significant and I said to my team, it is how we treat these people that signature of this event, we have to do it, but I want everyone to leave with their head help I didn’t we didn’t have that walk out of your box.

Cheryl Bachelder: That is.

David Horsager: i’ve seen it we started a big company, you would know.

David Horsager: When they lost trust for a decade, because of the way they did it not, that they had to do it.

David Horsager: So I like this, I remember the first time I had to lay someone off, and I think I can at least feel now maybe good about I I was sick for a month.

David Horsager: To have to do it, and I was in my 20s and I was kind of director over all my staff was older than me and was a I just can’t remember the feeling of that and I have had to do it sense but it’s it’s a the work of leadership is heavy you know, I think.

David Horsager: Ever yes it’s a it’s a heavy burden it shouldn’t be alone people that say they’re leaving alone are doing it wrong lead, you know we need teams and we need others but, but it should feel heavy I think that’s true so.

David Horsager: there’s so much more we could talk about about who you are and all the leadership roles and many people know you here, but I thought, something that you just said came out of.

David Horsager: That I picked this up in in your book and it’s a subtlety but it’s not going to get into some principles in the book but it’s a subtlety of how you say things that made me just so impressed with who you are and the word.

David Horsager: You said it already Oh, you said stewards it’s it’s it’s not this feeling of these are the people I lead.

David Horsager: it’s, these are the people, in fact, you said in the book several times, I can’t remember the wording, but something like these.

David Horsager: People i’m i’m charged with leading or i’m given to lead or i’m i’m kind of called to steward and it’s it’s like the investor us and we’re there to steward we’re not that.

David Horsager: it’s it’s it’s such a different feel of humility and I know you’ve been influenced by you said it there with Collins.

David Horsager: level five with a you know humility with ambition, but you know tell us where that that humility came from that seems genuine and that is something I see missing in the leaders I walk you know, alongside that i’m consulting or working with.

Cheryl Bachelder: Well, I agree it’s largely absent it’s culturally absent to.

Cheryl Bachelder: honor and uphold stewardship is a leadership trait, in fact, so much so today, I was being interviewed by a large big four.

Cheryl Bachelder: Accounting firm that you would recognize and on the subject of the SG which one of the aspects of ESP is governance and boardrooms and he said what thing, are we not measuring in the boardroom that we should be measuring.

Cheryl Bachelder: And I said, you should be measuring the steward the development of leaders as stores.

Cheryl Bachelder: And the reason is because we have very few people with that mindset and yet we’re interesting huge groups of people and huge amounts of resources to leaders in large companies or institutions any institution that right.

Cheryl Bachelder: And there’s no training up of stewardship beliefs values and behaviors right and our leaders, so why are we surprised that they don’t steward it well.

Cheryl Bachelder: Why are we surprised that they don’t create an environment where people feel treated with dignity, we shouldn’t be surprised we’re not training it up.

Cheryl Bachelder: we’re not expecting it we’re not measuring it like we do everything else in the business world right.

Cheryl Bachelder: And so I I use the word and trusted I believe people and resources have been interesting to my care as a leader and my responsibilities to steward them well.

Cheryl Bachelder: And, and if I steward them well, maybe I should get paid well and do well in life but that’s not the motive, that the motive is.

Cheryl Bachelder: I am a leader who has been entrusted with much and and should steward it to its best possible outcome i’m not in control of everything apart right, but I should steward best I can.

Cheryl Bachelder: To a better outcome So what does that look like a practice I think it’s real important to say how do you do that, not just philosophy.

Cheryl Bachelder: And, and my whole premise of pop is that the book is written around is what if we lead this company.

Cheryl Bachelder: As if the franchise owner who invested in the store the people, the Community.

Cheryl Bachelder: Was the Center of the universe, and we were to take care of them and set them up for success and I said a million times that we will measure our success by their success that’s the only measure of my team success is whether those franchise owners.

Cheryl Bachelder: are more prosperous when we leave them when we got here um now, why is that rocket science, I really wonder right.

Cheryl Bachelder: A, it is a business model, they need to perform well to continue to invest in the business to build more units or to innovate, are all those ways that we invest, so why wouldn’t I as a leader, think of them as the point of service, the point of stewardship.

Cheryl Bachelder: But you know franchisees in many, many organizations will tell you they are not value, they are not with respect their prosperity is not measured as a measure of the business success, I mean I don’t get it, I don’t get it.

David Horsager: i’ve seen that you know I work with an have spoken to and consulted with many franchise and franchisees and corporate.

David Horsager: And you know I can’t you know you see it all the time, and I can see the challenge but they won’t care about their franchisees they don’t they don’t there’s a risk that they won’t corporate there’s such a lack of trust between franchisee and what some people would call corporate right.

Cheryl Bachelder: Well, and I think you’ll appreciate, you know that relationships governed by a contract right, how does the contract have help you build prosperous business conditions.

Cheryl Bachelder: I you know I view a contract is something I only take out of the drawer and on a really bad day because right it’s like a marriage contract that’s the day you’re getting divorced same inbred I think the day you need the contract.

Cheryl Bachelder: You are getting divorced, and so I want to be well out ahead of that right any only thing ahead and that’s why I admire your research and your teaching is the only thing ahead of that is to have a healthy trusting truly prosperous business relationship.

David Horsager: So let’s take one idea from you, because I saw many, but just one idea of how did you build trust with your franchisees.

David Horsager: In popeye’s you know you went you went from me people don’t know this is a big deal from $11 a share to selling in $79 a share from I mean it wasn’t it did affect the bottom line this service leaders this dare to serve way of being.

David Horsager: It actually affected the bottom line.

David Horsager: And people you know more more people wanted franchises more people you know they spent money on upgrading their stores him in the story, the first half of the book story of of popeye’s really is just this example of.

David Horsager: People don’t care almost to we want to be a part of this right, how did you get what’s one idea of people could take away to build trust with others, that they serve.

Cheryl Bachelder: Well, I think it was greatly You said the single.

Cheryl Bachelder: talent of leaders that is under developers listening so i’m going to start there, the first thing we did pop it since we went to seven cities and we listened to our owners.

Cheryl Bachelder: And to the general managers of our restaurants and to our customers, and I mean literally behind the mirror, so we weren’t in the room, and all we could do is bring a pencil.

Cheryl Bachelder: And we listen to them talk about the strengths and weaknesses of the business the model and the decisions that have been made and we let them give us their best thinking on what was wrong and what needed to be fixed.

Cheryl Bachelder: And you know somebody told you a long time ago, the answers, always in the room, and it just is it just is, if you ask the people closest to your business model.

Cheryl Bachelder: what’s wrong they know they may not know how to solve it that’s a whole nother question, but they do know what’s wrong and they’re quick they’re happy to tell you, if you have.

Cheryl Bachelder: The patience to listen and write it down and take it home, and they would give anything if you just like act on that feedback right if you just take it home and Africa here so like One example is they told us that our.

Cheryl Bachelder: Innovation was not there, we weren’t watching any exciting new products.

Cheryl Bachelder: And 10 years later, we were the leading watcher of exciting new products in the industry because we took that feedback and said we’re going to build.

Cheryl Bachelder: The best new product development process that generates successful new product launches in a fast food restaurant we’re gonna build that thing.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it’s going to help us prosper and then we involve them every step of the way they got to taste the new products they got to see the test results.

Cheryl Bachelder: They got to challenge, whether or not we launched them right because it’s there you know restaurant and investment we’re putting these new products, and so we solve our problems we first lesson and then we solve our problems together.

Cheryl Bachelder: Most franchise orders want to bring the solution and tell you.


Cheryl Bachelder: And one time, one of my franchisees said, you know the best meetings we have with you is when you don’t bring a PowerPoint presentation.

David Horsager: hmm that’s good.

Cheryl Bachelder: I think it’s really good counsel.

David Horsager: that’s that’s really good counsel so let’s let’s this gets this kind of takes that and gives personal took it takes a couple things we’ve talked about already together.

David Horsager: You start the book with this idea of basically the biggest problem leaders have is spotlighting themselves, instead of others so shining a spotlight on others, in fact.

David Horsager: shift the spotlight you call it the spotlight problem and actually I like this quote that.

David Horsager: From your book there to serve we’ll put the links for everybody, but I really liked it, so I mean I talk a lot about a lot about a lot of books here a lot of things we’re working on, but this is really true and really valuable, so the biggest obstacle to a dare to serve leader is yourself.

David Horsager: it’s so true this kind of the spotlight focus and yet look at our culture, look at our kids look at your grandkids what are they growing up in when I watched football games and people.

David Horsager: One growing up, they all cheered together now, the first thing someone does is point to themselves pointed their name on their back point to their number pointed the self self self.

David Horsager: And there’s this big focus in leadership and in our culture to focus on ourselves spotlit herself.

David Horsager: You know I kind of goes back to we talked about before humility, but how do we get over this obstacle of ourself there’s even companies now it’s like build your personal brand as a leader not you know build the corporate brand build the the team, what are we going to do about it.

Cheryl Bachelder: One of my favorite quotes is from CS Lewis and i’ll get it mostly right where he says humility, is the thing that we are quick us to notice the absence of and others and most unlikely can notice the absence of it in ourselves.

Cheryl Bachelder: And that’s just true if you want to know a truth in the world that’s the truth, the truth is our nature is inclined to think of ourselves first and we’re just flood that way.

Cheryl Bachelder: And so I actually this is deep rooted principle for me, I am a flawed human likely to look out for myself if I don’t work against that urge.

Cheryl Bachelder: I often say servant leadership that it’s only an aspiration, you can never claim it because it’s a daily aspiration to become a better version of who you are we are not basically good.

Cheryl Bachelder: And I have arguments with people who actually believe that humans are basically good i’m sorry I know i’m not and i’m pretty sure you’re not.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it is hard work to put yourself in a filter of and people ask me, you know what is humility.

Cheryl Bachelder: What is servant leadership is simply thinking of others, more often than yourself right just putting the others lens on the situation more often than your self interest a simple example at work.

Cheryl Bachelder: How many times have someone come in and ask you as the leader for a race all the time people ask you for a race my number one question when you asked me for a race is when time when’s the last time you gave your team a race.

Cheryl Bachelder: So check that out, I don’t really want to talk to you about your race until you put it through the lens of i’ve looked at the compensation of all my team and where we step up and i’ve taken good care of my people okay now let’s talk about you.

Cheryl Bachelder: But that’s not human nature human nature is take care of me taking you know get my race get my promotion get me to the top of the you get my resume looking better, that is our nature, so we have to fight it.

Cheryl Bachelder: To be a leader different than that, and the best ones I figured out was this counting others as more significant than myself if you say that in every interaction, you have with the human it changes the context of the conversation and.

Cheryl Bachelder: It do I do it every day, no I am imperfect.

Cheryl Bachelder: But this is the way to change your mindset because humility, is not something we’re appear trying to appear to be okay soon as you say, I am humble you wear a badge that says, I won the humility award I yeah like.

Cheryl Bachelder: You are not right so we’re trying to live in a genuine passion and the only threshold for that is did you think about how that was working for the other person only threshold and that works at marriage worth of your children works at the office but it’s really hard to do.

David Horsager: This gets to something else we’ve been talking a lot about and it’s.

David Horsager: it’s love it’s this this you talked about in the book loving those you lead and I thought about leaders to do we really love those we lead and, by the way this has been a monumental shift and not trying to bring it back around us, but for our.

David Horsager: For our way we run things so I mean if I go back 20 years ago my wife would be with me but backstage and I was scared to death to go out there and nervous and i’m like David she would say the same thing, every time stop thinking about the research stop thinking about you.

David Horsager: Just love them, they can tell when you love them, and this has been a thing i’ve shared a lot now when I went in the first time I was in a.

David Horsager: country where the you know the President and machine guns all around and you got this you know we’re supposed to deal with this.

David Horsager: issues in their country around trust and and Lisa knew I was she was with me this time so i’m going to meet the President, Vice President, whatever she just talks, you know.

David Horsager: holds my hand tight and he whispers to me across the banquet table just love them, they can tell when you love them and.

David Horsager: boardrooms sometimes some of the toughest boardrooms in the world, some of the biggest names in the world that I know i’m going in there you got to do with this trust issue with this board.

David Horsager: And I would get a text from Lisa just love them and it changed it helped me and like you were saying I so imperfect at this, because you can get to thinking Oh, I can do this, and it would.

David Horsager: Give them get a standing ovation or I can do this, and it would that they really love that but that’s not the best for them that day what’s loving them that day what’s loving them and their way and we.

David Horsager: just had a in a study here from practice I don’t have heard of them, but they asked the question, the Leader They encompass.

David Horsager: kind of compel us to ask the question is it loving toward them is that loving toward the shareholders, is it loving toward your people, the problem with being in least leadership, especially as an owner entrepreneur is.

David Horsager: I kind of have the power right it’s it’s like,

David Horsager: As an owner of a company I don’t have to.

David Horsager: Think and that’s a pretty fair wage, but is it a loving wage is it a, is it really.

David Horsager: best for them is it is, it is it I have so much power, I have to really work, the point is, I have to work to think is that loving toward.

David Horsager: And some of some of the new things we’ve offered from the way we run our yeah just some of our trust work is, is it really we shifted things simplified things probably don’t make as much money as some of the other ways of doing things.

David Horsager: But it.

David Horsager: The reason was it’s loving toward and i’m grateful for that shift we’re totally imperfect at it.

Cheryl Bachelder: So I love what you said about love, because you talk about it as a demonstrated action.

Cheryl Bachelder: I think it’s going man being says love is an action for breasts what you do and about five years after being a pop is one of my franchise leaders very important influential leader in the franchise system, he said, it appears that you actually like us and care about us is that true.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it really caught me by surprise that’s like not a routine question and I thought about it for a minute I said Well, yes, it is true.

Cheryl Bachelder: i’m quite passionate about caring for you, and it should feel like care and love and friendship, I mean right people ask me why i’m so good friends with franchisees at kfc.

Cheryl Bachelder: I pop eyes at any number of the company’s dominoes that i’ve served that well because I actually was in relationship with these people, I actually did really care now do you know what people tell me the number one obstacle is to caring about others at work.

Cheryl Bachelder: Time time and they just immediately tell me that they do not have time enough, so I did this one of my executives challenged me.

Cheryl Bachelder: And I said, well, how do you feel about the time that I spent with you Oh, I feel very good about the time you spend with me.

Cheryl Bachelder: is important to you to have time with me that we can talk things over oh very important I said well.

Cheryl Bachelder: How do you think that people that work for you, you think they value getting some of your time so time is the currency of care.

Cheryl Bachelder: And I started giving my team a guideline and I made it up be honest, but it worked.

Cheryl Bachelder: I said spend 30% of your week and one on one sessions, with the people that work for you as a way to demonstrate that you’re listening that you care that you’re here to help, but that you’re stewarding the resources well make that a priority.

Cheryl Bachelder: And they told me that would be humanly impossible, but we got to that we got that it’s really just an hour and a half, with each person on a team of seven.

Cheryl Bachelder: It takes Tuesday and half a Wednesday or whatever they are right, it is not impossible to do, but it is intentionality to do.

Cheryl Bachelder: And you cannot demonstrate love and care without spending time with people and knowing their names and their kids names and their wives this whole person thing right, so another thing I love to say is, you must know the people you’d leave.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it’s really the same thesis if I don’t know anything about you, if I don’t spend any time with you and there’s not a chance that you would understand the as a caring.

Cheryl Bachelder: leader, who was stewarding you and the resources as well it’s not possible so here’s the thing all of us leaders trying to do a better job.

Cheryl Bachelder: Is We just need to be the leader we’d like to work for Okay, we all know what good looks like we all know what it looks like feel cared for and intended to let’s do that our team is inexcusable to know that and not do it.

David Horsager: I actually have that written in my notes, I read it in your book ask what kind of leader, you would follow and be that.

David Horsager: yeah be maybe that was my cliff note version in my side side notes, but.

David Horsager: So the book is dare to serve how to drive superior results by serving others, and it is fantastic let’s just touch on as we bring things together, you know.

David Horsager: What i’ve noticed, at least in the leaders i’ve had the opportunity to walk next to serve even Council.

David Horsager: Those that are doing it well are leaving themselves well and I often often notice that people are leading others well are actually there they’re better almost.

David Horsager: At home than they are at work they’re there they’re doing you know not just doing work well and I just wonder, do you have some routines that help you lead yourself well.

Cheryl Bachelder: i’m you know i’ve had to learn routines with myself better, so I think it’s a really important thing to talk about I would tell you routines and disciplines do not come naturally to me i’m kind of an idea.

Cheryl Bachelder: person expansive thinking always got something new that I want to do I think about it, so I i’ve had to really work at these disciplines, I will tell you the ones that really come to mind I have.

Cheryl Bachelder: I have had a purpose for my working life for over 25 years.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it is to inspire purpose driven leaders to live with competence and character and all aspects of their life.

Cheryl Bachelder: And you know it’s not a perfect sentence, but it’s worked for 25 years at guiding me towards where I spend my time.

Cheryl Bachelder: And it’s all about encouraging and developing leaders and Oh, by the way, that includes my daughters and includes my friends, you know I mean, I want to be an investor in human beings and helping them.

Cheryl Bachelder: reach their potential so have a purpose plan your time around it, that probably was the biggest breakthrough for me is that you have a limit.

Cheryl Bachelder: limited amount of time right I don’t know why it took me so long to figure that out, but you do so, use it well, I made 100 day plan every quarter for pop eyes and I mapped out both my personal and my professional time by day.

Cheryl Bachelder: At the outset of every quarter, so that I was putting in you know the big intentional work first.

Cheryl Bachelder: Because if those are the big rocks the pebbles will fill in around them right that’s basis and so put the big rocks on your calendar first intentionality because everything else will fill in around it and then maybe the secret sauce for me has been learning to carve out quiet time.

Cheryl Bachelder: I have a daily quiet, time is fairly short but important to give me the day off to the right start getting my head in the right place revisiting what I believe from a faith perspective, what my intent is from a purpose and then my calendar.

Cheryl Bachelder: And reflecting on that a few minutes set I set the stage for the day.

David Horsager: And when you do that when when do you take the time to do that.

Cheryl Bachelder: Always first thing in the morning, if I don’t do it in the morning it doesn’t happen.

David Horsager: How long do you do it for.

Cheryl Bachelder: Today it’s about 45 minutes when I was in the thick of the big CEO job it was probably more like 20 to 25 minutes and I would either do it at home or I would do it, I would shut my door when I got work good work.

Cheryl Bachelder: You know if you have a chaotic young children home in the morning might not be the best place to do that so.

Cheryl Bachelder: But I used to tell people I said listen people leave work to get a haircut I can close my door for 20 minutes of reflection time at work without feeling like a poor steward I mean that’s a good steward to care.

Cheryl Bachelder: For myself for 20 minutes to get ready for the day and then, once a quarter, I did a full day silent retreat with a guide guide person that guided it.

Cheryl Bachelder: it’s a tradition from my paper that I hold up hold is really valuable keeping me.

Cheryl Bachelder: focused on the right things and doing the right things in my life, and so I would say.

Cheryl Bachelder: One of my favorite books last year with the ruthless elimination of hurry by Mark comber because he just kicked in the teeth about eliminating hurry and chaos, so that you might actually have a clear mind and a clear had to.

Cheryl Bachelder: live out what you believe this is important to do with your life.

David Horsager: I love it.

David Horsager: You know I know you, you gave us a book there you’ve you’re an avid reader I love books and love reading, you have another one that comes to mind right off from the last year to that.

David Horsager: That you’ve been made an impact.

Cheryl Bachelder: Well, you know i’m going to be unconventional under and the response because I just read it and store up a model, called the Book of last names, it was a World War Two story, and I make a point every summer.

Cheryl Bachelder: of going to this little House by the light that we have in Michigan and reading a historical novel.

Cheryl Bachelder: Today, no one reads Noah study history, no one reads history, and they are even in a novel format there’s so much to garner.

Cheryl Bachelder: from history about difficult times, you know more times are actually quite relevant but you’re going through coven times it I just think we don’t seek perspective from history and from novels and other sources of literature, so that would be my suggestion.

David Horsager: I would love to talk to you all day I love this there’s so much to gather and learn here any other piece of advice for leaders that are trying to be trusted leaders.

Cheryl Bachelder: Well, I guess, my.

Cheryl Bachelder: i’ll give you two one is that there’s a real risk of trying to live your life to please other people.

Cheryl Bachelder: And that is physically impossible to do, and so I think the sooner you figure out who you’re living your life for and that might be a God might be God it might be a principle of your faith or your belief system but hang on to that is your anchor not what people think.

Cheryl Bachelder: We are just throwing around like standing waves when we do that, there is no anchor and living your life for all other people’s intent so know why you’re living for.

Cheryl Bachelder: And then the second thing is to live an integrated life I the reason my purpose that says.

Cheryl Bachelder: competence and character in all aspects of your life, we have one poll I you know I want my daughters to know me as a person of stewardship and integrity and generosity, just as much as I want you to know that.

Cheryl Bachelder: it’s just as important, probably more important that they know that, and so I once was told by a boss, not a very good boss, that I should just pay keep my whole personal life at home.

Cheryl Bachelder: And I said oh none or that will not be the case for me, I will be the same person here, as I will be at home, and you will know me my whole person, and they will know, the whole person because it’s, the only way.

Cheryl Bachelder: That it’s healthy it’s only healthy way to live your life, and so I think if you really put a filter on that and say i’m going to strive again it’s a daily ambition not something we do easily, but I am daily going to strive to be the same human being everywhere, I go so powerful guide.

David Horsager: Thank you for that. Where can people find out more about you?

Cheryl Bachelder: So I have a website cherylbachelder.com, my name is hard to spell so it also Google it it’s serving performs is the name of the site.

Cheryl Bachelder: Where I have blogged for years and I have a lot of resources that you can reach out to me, you can contact me I actually read the email that I get off my website.

Cheryl Bachelder: linkedin is another great tool that we have today that I respond to every linkedin request that I get that as a specific inquiry.

David Horsager: Great well we’ll put that in the show notes,

David Horsager: cherylbachelder.com and this book dare to serve, and I want to I always end with this question cheryl and I know you have many examples, but we talked about trusted leadership what’s it like to be really a leader worthy of trust, who is a leader you especially trust and why.

Cheryl Bachelder: One of the leaders I looked up to his his name is Scott mcclellan he runs a division of compass.

Cheryl Bachelder: His division services hospitals in retirement communities food service for us those and retirement communities, and I suppose you want to know why.

Cheryl Bachelder: I really he’s very transparent and vulnerable to share his beliefs and values in the workplace, so he allows you to know him.

Cheryl Bachelder: He talks straight up to his people he travels the country to know and we his people and so i’ve taken great inspiration from him and he has taken time with me to share.

Cheryl Bachelder: Some of the things that helped him be effective and leadership and so it’s those people that you get to see up close and that will take the time to share that really make the most impression on you.


David Horsager: Well, this has been a special treat and you’re one of the leaders, that is the same on stage and off and we’re grateful for that, so thank you cheryl so much for being here and spending a time and until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 42: Bobby Herrera on The Gift Of Struggle

In this episode, David sits down with Bobby Herrera, Co-founder and CEO of Populus Group, Speaker, and Author, to discuss why struggle is actually a gift.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Bobby’s Bio:
Bobby believes that everyone deserves an opportunity to succeed and is an unwavering champion for the underdog. He’s cofounder and CEO of Populus Group—one of the fastest-growing HR services companies in the United States with annual revenue of $500 million and many Fortune 100 customers. As one of thirteen children in a migrant family he learned the value of hard work, rising early and putting in long hours in the fields. After high school, boot camp became his ticket of opportunity. He serves on national community organization boards and is a regular speaker at corporations and service groups. He is a proud Army veteran. Bobby is most proud of his family—his wife Roslyn and their three children Santino, Griffith, and Sofia live in Portland, Oregon.

Bobby’s Links:
Website: https://bobby-herrera.com/
“The Gift Of Struggle” by Bobby Herrera: https://amzn.to/3irNyIO
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobby-herrera-5781821/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/BobbyHerreraPG
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bobbyherrera.pg/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bobbyherrerapg/

Key Quotes:
1. “I want to write the book that I wish someone would have written for me.”
2. “We’re all climbing our own mountain.”
3. “Leadership starts with that goodness we all have inside.”
4. “One of the single most important parts of leadership is seeing and encouraging potential.”
5. “One of the single most important characteristics in leadership is giving more than you take.”
6. “In giving, there are two acts: giving and receiving.”
7. “When you give from a place of helping others the return’s going to come.”
8. “As a leader, your responsibility is to slow the game down for your people.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“The Gift Of Struggle” by Bobby Herrera: https://amzn.to/3irNyIO
“The Way To Love” by Anthony de Mello: https://amzn.to/3xvXdCh
5 Questions To Ask Yourself Yearly: https://bobby-herrera.com/blog/5-questions-to-ask-yourself-yearly/
Manage The VUCA: https://bobby-herrera.com/blog/manage-the-vuca/
Populus Group: https://www.populusgroup.com/en

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a very special guest, I say that almost every time, but if if I was thinking of a.

David Horsager: client and a friend, that I would want to be like I mean this next guest is just someone I he’s what we say the same onstage and offstage.

David Horsager: He is authentic and he wrote the book the gift of struggle he’s founder and CEO of a great organization, the populace group, and he has created an amazing culture there, and yet just a humble brilliant kind i’m just i’m just i’m grateful you’re here thanks for being with us Bobby Herrera.

Bobby: That God bless you David what kind words, I feel the same, I feel the same, I was really looking forward to seeing you today.

David Horsager: yeah I i’m just grateful and, and this is going to be fun and people are going to get a lot out of our time together to because you’re here so.

David Horsager: Bobby grew up 13 kids in his family and grew up with not much financially in fact didn’t feel like you, could you could.

David Horsager: You know even afford to buy meals, when your sports team was.

David Horsager: out and all those kind of things, but you got a moment I think it’s interesting for people, I want to recommend it everybody i’ll see it in the show notes.

David Horsager: there’s other ways to connect with Bobby if you want to work in an amazing culture, you know consider populace group if they have space, but I think.

David Horsager: I think the book the gift of struggle, you know we we avoid struggle and I want to talk about that book overall but let’s go back to that moment when you’re 17 years old and and just share that kind of seemed to give some meaning and mission to life.

Bobby: marker moment for me, David.

Bobby: yeah I was a kid there was introduced to struggle from day one i’m one of 11 I still eat with my elbows on the table, I will steal your bacon from you in a fraction of a second.

Bobby: But to this moment.

Bobby: I was 17 and my brother and I were on a return trip home from a basketball game.

Bobby: And along the way we stopped for dinner.

Bobby: And when we stopped everyone and loaded off the bus, except for my brother and I, you know at that point in my family story we didn’t have the means to play sports and have for dinner and it’s just the way things were.

Bobby: Well, a few moments, after the team and loaded one of the dads are the other players steps on worth of us.

Bobby: And he teased me a little bit because that had outscored me that night and then he said something to me, David that i’ll always remember.

Bobby: Bobby would make me very happy if you would allow me to buy you and at dinner, so you can join the rest of the team, nobody else has to know all you have to do to thank me is do the same thing for another great kid like you in the future.

Bobby: And i’ll always remember how I felt in that moment, because you know i’m 17 I had no idea what I want to do with my life I just know that I wanted my future to look different than my past, and I remember stepping off the bus that evening David and.

Bobby: All I had in front of me was a desire to you know raise my hand and join the army, which I eventually did, but other than that I had no no clue what I wanted to do and.

Bobby: But I do remember very vividly that night that although I didn’t know what I wanted to do I knew why.

Bobby: I wanted to figure out a way to create something that would allow me to pay forward that kind back to other kids like me who were born on the wrong side of the opportunity divine and it was a transformative moment for me.

Bobby: A compassion, the humility that this dad that stepped on board the bus demonstrated for me.

Bobby: Just changed my outlook on so many things, and it really gave me hope that I desperately needed at that point my life and it just helped me rethink my story and reframe my story and that led to many other wonderful.

Bobby: opportunities to just become the person that I wanted to, and that obviously that’s a question the journey we’re all on but.

Bobby: i’ll never forget that, even if it changed my life forever.

David Horsager: you’ve been on a journey that’s been amazing now leader of a great organization and you know dad to some amazing kids and your your your relationship with your wife rosalynn and I just this who you are I just um.

David Horsager: I think there’s some just greatness there we’re going to come around to.

David Horsager: Those three questions you asked in the book, but I wanted to what else, what kind of led to writing the book.

Bobby: yeah you know it wasn’t on my list.

Bobby: You know I I I sat next to really smart guys like you to get through college David, so I wasn’t yeah I was a you know more of a storyteller than a writer, and you know through some encouragement.

Bobby: You know I did a lot of storytelling for kids you know I call them my fellow underdogs and.

Bobby: veteran entrepreneurs and so forth, and through that journey.

Bobby: I kept getting some knowledge of encouragements like hey you have to put some of these stories in a book, you know you have to put some of these simple principles and leadership lessons in a book and.

Bobby: You know I finally decided to do it, and when I when I finally did I I just had a couple of very simple objectives for its number one I wrote it to give you know I want to write the book that I wish someone would have written for me and to.

Bobby: have always had a real simple mantra when I tell a story is like I call it just one That said, if it helps just one person take better control of their story it’s a massive success and.

Bobby: i’ve been blessed that i’ve been able to do both of those with that and.

Bobby: It was part of that journey encouragement from really good people that said hey you, you need to share this story and i’m really happy that I did now, but I was pretty reluctant for a while.

David Horsager: yeah.

Bobby: yeah because I, you know i’m a i’m a you know pretty you know behind the scenes kind of guy I live in a farm and you and i’ve talked a lot about that I, I prefer to stay in the background.

David Horsager: yeah and yet you’re leaving I think I want to talk about leadership in your culture at populace group and some of that but.

David Horsager: Before I do I want to go a little deeper on the book.

David Horsager: want to just touch on three of the key questions and you just respond to them just kind of give a little life to them from maybe you know, the first one is who are you becoming.


Bobby: You know I.

Bobby: I love the mountains and i’m passionate about in the mountains, and I believe that every single one of us, and so I use it as a metaphor, and many things, I have a cold claiming thing with my culture.

Bobby: And you know, I believe that we’re all climbing our own mountain like there’s a place that we imagine that looks and feels better than where we are today.

Bobby: and

Bobby: We all share basic desires to stand out to fit in and to be a part of something bigger than ourselves and that’s part of that climb that we’re on and.

Bobby: You know, asking ourselves that simple question who am I becoming and you know self assessing that consistently and simply, I believe, is profound because you know leadership obviously starts with that goodness that we all have inside We just have to dig for it.

David Horsager: mm hmm.

David Horsager: So that so who are we becoming we’re going to consider that your second question is what’s the invisible force that drives us.

Bobby: Right yeah that’s the.

Bobby: yeah that’s the bus story, for me, you know that moment on the bus.

Bobby: One of the reasons, people often ask me why I had such a profound impact on me and there was an interesting backstory you know the gentleman that stepped on board the bus, he was a very successful businessman and community.

Bobby: And the narrative that I told myself at the time, David was it, you know people like him, they don’t see kids like me.

Bobby: And with one kind act not only did he teach me that I was wrong, but he taught me that one of the single most important parts of leadership is seeing and encouraging potential.

Bobby: And so that moment became my invisible force it helped me understand that someday I could check what I call the ultimate box, and that is where my story matter.

Bobby: And I believe we all have a own version of a bus story inside of us a moment that help give us that.

Bobby: That hope that yes, someday my story could matter to you have to dig for it, though, so.

David Horsager: i’m number three I could pause on each of these and be moved and thinking of my own i’m processing, as I have before with your work, but am I, giving more than i’m taking what a counter cultural perspective on.

Bobby: yeah yeah it, you know it.

Bobby: yeah i’ve.

Bobby: I think probably the best way to describe, that is, you know i’m going to borrow quote from a gentleman, whose work i’ve studied quite a bit is a Jesuit priest named Anthony de Mello.

Bobby: very, very wise, you know spiritual and.

Bobby: teacher of of just good principles and.

Bobby: You know he has a metaphor that he uses, you know, every day, the sun comes out and it shines and not once does a son ever say to the earth you owe me.

Bobby: It just gives and I believe that one of the single most important characteristics and leadership, and this applies to fatherhood, the friendship.

Bobby: is just giving more than you take you know, because you know when you truly give you don’t wait for a third act, you know you give the person receives.

Bobby: and too often I believe you know we wait for a third act we keep a scorecard or we want something in return.

Bobby: But that’s not really giving you know our cup should be full by shining and just knowing that in giving there are two acts giving and receiving and when you learn to eliminate that third act I think that’s when you’re really living and appreciating the power of giving.

David Horsager: I love that in life, it makes some sense, how do you do that in business i’m you get you guys create this great product you get paid for it, you.

David Horsager: write you have certain relationships you’re trying to sell and you’ve got an amazing sales team.

Bobby: They have to get.

David Horsager: Sales like, how do we, how do we live that out in the business world.

Bobby: yeah great question you know it’s counterintuitive to.

Bobby: You know, some of these important roles in the ecosystem of an organization.

Bobby: You know what i’ve encouraged my like my salesforce you might VP of sales gentleman named frank de Castro he’s extraordinary at this, you know, I think.

Bobby: When you when you give from a place of helping others and you give from a place of your compassion your you know your second pillar of trust, where you truly see others and you really want to help them solve their problem, the returns going to come, like I believe people genuinely.

Bobby: When they receive that triggers a relationship where they and they to want to return it in their own way, and so, if you give at least with that mindset and with that heartfelt approach.

Bobby: you’re going to be able to get the return that you’re looking for, but you also got to be able to keep the equation I call it keep it unbalanced.

Bobby: Get and that’s why you know when I send off my emails I do give greater than take right you’re going to take, but just make sure that it’s always unbalanced and you do that.

Bobby: it’s funny it works out you end up getting a premium for your work, you know people appreciate that a great deal.

Bobby: And I believe they show it in the way you know, like.

Bobby: Like we we all love great service and we’re willing to pay for great service, so you know we do it in our own buyer behavior but it’s more of a mindset than it is a.

Bobby: formula.


David Horsager: So you’ve been you know I do want to get to your culture of your company because i’m so thrilled about that, and some of the things you’ve been able to do, but I do want to ask you this question.

David Horsager: You know, it seemed like.

David Horsager: At least the leaders I walk next to and what get to walk with because of some of the things we’re doing.

David Horsager: they’re leading themselves well there have some routines they have habits personally.

David Horsager: What what what are you willing to share on habits that you have personally to be the leader, you can be.

Bobby: yeah a great question i’m very open about about some of these habits and I do them in perfectly, but I also do my best to try to do them consistently.

Bobby: You know i’m a i’m a routines guy think that started getting wired early on, is a migrant farm worker getting up early and working and then the army embedded that in the be deeply.

Bobby: But I always start my day fueling what my spiritual pillar, so I try to live my life on four pillars my spiritual pillar.

Bobby: My emotional pillar.

Bobby: My intellectual pillar and my physical pillar, and you know, even if you were to look on my my board here next to me I have those four in a box and I have a few simple things that I do underneath each of them.

Bobby: You know I like I start my day with you know the good book and i’ll read a couple of scriptures and i’ll meditate on them.

Bobby: And i’m big into neuro theology, you know I believe 12 minutes of prayer day and it’s been proven can help rewire your brain, so I need that, and so I always start my day there and then i’ll start my day with after that i’ll go to.

Bobby: What I called the you know emotional pillar fuel and i’ll read like this morning, I actually read some stuff on Anthony de Mello.

Bobby: And then i’ll read and then i’ll pick up after that and i’m like okay well, let me challenge, so my thinking and i’ll read something that fuels my intellectual pillar and then after I do, that I follow it with a you know a good hard workout and you know I start my days really early David.

Bobby: i’m the only guy in the House and everybody else sleeps in, and you know, by the time everyone else wakes up I have all four of those boxes checked and then I can just be silly dad the rest of the day, or you know do do my service to populace group.

David Horsager: what’s your what is it give us the time frame, when you normally get up.

Bobby: I usually wake up a about you know in between 445 and 530 is like that’s the way my body works i’m.

David Horsager: You know.

Bobby: yeah it’s i’m up i’m ready to go and.

Bobby: But on the flip side of it once you know 9pm rolls around i’m a slough.

Bobby: yeah.

Bobby: i’m just.

Bobby: i’m just worthless.


David Horsager: that’s that’s that’s I have the i’m morning more I food.

David Horsager: Are you yeah so so you know this is great, how do you.

David Horsager: what’s a way I promise everybody i’m going to get to the company leadership stuff but that wasn’t something here, because your family so great, what are you doing to lead your kids well.

Bobby: yeah great question you know what a humbling leadership journey fatherhood, yes right, and you know talk a lot offline about that.

Bobby: You don’t want to have what i’ve learned about.

Bobby: My kids you know my dad had a saying in Spanish yeah I was, I was number 11 to 13 and I thought I was born with a single mission try to figure out some type of mischief that your parents haven’t seen before, and that’s pretty hard as number 11.

Bobby: And my dad saying in Spanish was he’d say ECO, it is a boss at us.

Bobby: Which means a son, you are a dad you’ll be you’re going to get yours, and so you know my three little Mexican Vikings a my coconuts.

Bobby: First and foremost, I try to be a spiritual leader for them, and you know model for them yeah we’re big on using the.

Bobby: You know the fruits of the spirit to guide our behavior you know and so when we you know show up or I show up or they show up in a way that.

Bobby: isn’t them i’ll often ask them about hey you know buddy you know what what fruit of the spirit, can I help you there and they’ll say dad you know patients or dad you know.

Bobby: kindness, you know and so i’ll use those those those those fruits of the spirit, so his attributes of Jesus his personality, you know love joy peace patience kindness goodness.

Bobby: gentleness faithfulness and self control and i’ll use that as a parameter, but I try to do it in a way to where I don’t force it on them, because I also don’t want them to feel like i’m.

Bobby: Imposing my spiritual beliefs on them, but at the same time allowing it to be a guide so that they can self assess because.

Bobby: You know my responsibilities are dad I tell them all the time, you know i’ll ask him hey Daddy you know, a buddy what’s what’s that dad’s job.

Bobby: And they’ll say to prepare me for the path, not to prepare the path for me while you’re right, you know, and you know that comes from our passion for the mountains, that we share.

Bobby: It because I get them out in the mountains, a lot matter of fact we’re leaving later this tonight to go to the mountains in California, so I get them out in the mountains and that’s where we teach each other.

David Horsager: I love it.

David Horsager: So let’s jump the populus group you’ve created quite a culture there and you’ve certainly been intentional about it, we met, because I was speaking at an event for a big.

David Horsager: Medical company and you were there and Presidents of our other I guess you could say MED tech companies and medical companies.

David Horsager: medical device companies were there, but tell us, just a quick of what you do and then I really want to get into culture, mostly but.

David Horsager: At populus group and then we’ll we’ll talk about it.

Bobby: yeah sure you know pop the script Latin for people, you know we’re a community of ego less passionate climbers building something bigger than ourselves and.

Bobby: You know the problem we solve for the world is you know we help organizations primarily large organizations mid to large.

Bobby: better manage their non permanent workforce, you know organizations have a pretty good grip on their full time permanent employees.

Bobby: But when it comes to their non permanent employees contractors for nationals independent contractors.

Bobby: it’s a big ball of yarn for with different rules and laws across state lines and they usually come to an organization like us and say hey help me untangle this this is confusing it’s frustrating me.

Bobby: We want to do it right and be compliant Can you help me, and so we helped him untangle that mess and do it better, faster, more efficiently and more economically.

David Horsager: So tell us you’ve built a culture, there you call your you could say some people would say employees you.

David Horsager: Call climbers and you use that a mountain climbing analogy throughout what you do even take them there’s an annual climb.

David Horsager: For your day but kind of how many people do you haven’t what are you doing these days intentionally to build.

David Horsager: This you called the culture code at populates group but tell us just a little bit about that.

Bobby: yeah you know.

Bobby: Culture is I mean defined in so many different ways, with my very simple definition is you know it’s like hey what is the personality.

Bobby: of our organization, what is the feeling that we want people to experience when they interact with us, and it needs to answer the question you know how do we behave and our culture code is centered around three primary pillars and the first one is we give more than we take.

Bobby: We speak from the heart.

Bobby: And we go off the beaten path.

Bobby: And all three of those pillars David we have stories that support the behavior that we want everyone in our Community to emulate.

Bobby: You know, for example, to give more than you take embedded in that is the bus story and everything we do to bring that to life, you know speak from the heart that in its purest essence is all about building trust it’s all about.

Bobby: Serving it’s all about telling the truth, being the people that that that we want to become, and you know third going off the beaten path.

Bobby: that’s really all about being a great listener and solving problems in a creative way and building enough trust within the Community, so that these climbers.

Bobby: can raise their hand and say hey we’ve been doing this wrong and we need to find a better way, I mean one of our core values is find a better way so.

Bobby: that’s at the essence of our culture and our culture code and you know we embed that deeply into all of the human systems and the routines and the symbols and the traditions that we have.

Bobby: And it’s taken me, you know will be 19 years old in September in September night, so you know, basically, I would say we graduated high school, by now, but we’re just a big 10th grader because we flunked at least three times in my first 10 years building a community.

David Horsager: Tell tell us in your Community how what are some traditions, you have for for building those.

Bobby: yeah you know you mentioned the.

Bobby: The annual trip.

Bobby: So every August i’ll take.

Bobby: A handpicked group of climbers, and these are climbers that are first and foremost, or they live in the Culture code and there they.

Bobby: me modeling our values for everyone else, and then they do those two, then we look at the results in the performance and they do i’ll take like six to mount rainier and we’ll make the climb up to Camp year it is an all day lesson packed journey.

Bobby: That create more stories that they come back and share.

Bobby: Another one is you know, every year, my version of the heisman I call it the Sherpa award you know, a Sherpa as a guide and.

Bobby: You know you can’t get up a mountain it’s hard to climb without a great Sherpa and so every year I will select one climber, and our whole community.

Bobby: That is lived our values and our culture code better than anyone, and I give them the Sherpa it’s our version of that heisman I give one a year and it’s not about performance it’s not a sales award.

Bobby: And I celebrate the heck out of them and we and then i’ll fly all of the sherpas, and the previous winners all the previous heisman winners per se to a location.

Bobby: A surprise location every every year in September and we’ll spend two days.

Bobby: Looking deep inside our culture and asking ourselves so a few simple questions, what are we doing well.

Bobby: What do we need to do better, what do we need to change and I give them the voice, and so I empower them to just be the voice of the Community.

Bobby: and tell me the good bad and the ugly along with the rest of my executive team and it gives them a sense of you know, being heard and and owning the culture and you do that, over a period of years and these traditions stick so i’m big on traditions and symbols and routines like that.

David Horsager: I like it.

Bobby: And you know, David I got i’m going to reach over and grab this.

Bobby: on day one, everybody gets one of these it’s a Caribbean or.

Bobby: and on it, it says choice.

Bobby: And so, one of the first lessons that climbers learn when they get selected for our Community is that hey we get to choose whether or not we asked for help, whether or not we choose to help whether or not we share our ideas, whether or not we.

Bobby: build trust, whether or not we extend trust all those important behaviors are embedded in our culture code, and so I expect climbers to take their Caribbean or to every meeting.

Bobby: Every call that they’re on as a reminder and the symbol that we climb is one, so I have these types of traditions and vernacular embedded in every part of our.

Bobby: Culture and it’s just kind of a quirky way that my mind works and i’ve just done that, from the beginning and.

Bobby: it’s been very, very effective for us.

David Horsager: I love it, you know many people listening we deal with obviously culture, all the time, some of the biggest companies in the world, trying to drive cultures of trust we believe performance goes up.

David Horsager: And is that it’s best when there’s a culture of trust, but I think some people have a lot, they could learn from how do we systemized how to make traditions, how do we make routines we talked about all the time you’ve got to have.

David Horsager: The seven big components to transform a culture and one of them is an ongoing reinforcement, there has to be a way we can’t be a one and done flavor the month we have to have a way to reinforce and I love what you’ve done.

Bobby: yeah.

David Horsager: With that is is is interesting, so I give you a credit often i’ve about Luca because you know we were talking, I think it was early on in the pandemic and and you, you talk about learning verruca i’m gonna i’ll jump in and share it because i’ll share my take on it.

David Horsager: And then you can give life to it.

David Horsager: But I remember you saying in the world college, you went to the word college in the 80s and you’ll learn we I think we’re touching base on.

David Horsager: Right after you read wrote a blog on everybody should go and we’re going to put this in the show notes Bobby dash herrera.com or you can go see more about Bobby Herrera, and the book.

David Horsager: The gift of struggle which everybody should get I don’t say that with every book I put on here i’ll tell you that, right now, and also um.

David Horsager: And I also read your blog you talked about how you learn, you know.

David Horsager: I, if I remember it right, you were saying you know kind of what was working for you in the pandemic and early on and you said well you learn this in the in the word college it voca.

David Horsager: V stands for volatility you stands for uncertainty C stands for complexity in a stands for ambiguity.

David Horsager: And, as I recall it, you talked about how you know times in uncertainty, we asked, especially kind of two groups of questions or two questions and.

David Horsager: Those that have done well it’s helped me in the pandemic of number one, what can I control and I and then.

David Horsager: By the way, I saw this with people, many people spend all their brain calories on things they could not control and didn’t think what they could, and secondly, in times of uncertainty or or time to.

David Horsager: Have those what should I do first.

David Horsager: And then prioritizing that made a big difference for me and i’ve just got to say your perspective on that made a big difference for a lot of those that we serve.

David Horsager: But is there anything you would like to add to that that’s my limited perspective on a conversation that changed my life and others that I coach and consult with but give us give us your maybe a little extended thoughts on buca.


Bobby: You know, it was introduced into the army, the army war college in the 80s, I learned it in the late 80s just you know, because it was somewhat going viral when I was you know, during my time in service and.

Bobby: you’re basically book is a fancy acronym of saying hey when it hits the fan, people are going to panic and you know they have all these dynamics going on, and as a leader.

Bobby: your responsibility, in a sense, and this is what I did when the pandemic hit is like I need to slow the game down for my people.

Bobby: Because often our intuition, you know our our lizard brain takes over the amygdala takes over, and you, you intuitively want to go faster and so voca in a sense, in the leadership environment is, let me slow the game down, let me, let them breathe relax we got this, and so, by looking at.

Bobby: The things that we can control and helping people understand that Well, this is volatile, this is going to be very uncertain, this is no doubt going to get more complex, if you try to go out and get those answers on the outside.

Bobby: you’re going to lead people to panic more so instead it’s like no let’s look at us let’s look at ourselves what can we do, what can we do well and.

Bobby: What can we control and then let’s try to do them in the best order that we can.

Bobby: because sometimes you won’t know until later on whether or not you did it in the right order is trying to figure out the best order here and.

Bobby: Take a methodical responsible approach that’s hard to do when you know there’s enemy fire coming your way and that, in a sense, is the essence of it and it helped a lot and I managed the.

Bobby: temperament of the organization throughout the pandemic by using that quite a bit it’s like okay let’s manage of uka where’s the.

Bobby: where’s the vocal today how where are people fill in the book and how are you managing it, how are you slowing the game down, and that was super helpful for my leaders and throughout last year, they did an exceptional job of that.

Bobby: I was real proud of them.

David Horsager: Following that up you know you did something amazing that many leaders would like to do and it shows something about your leadership that you were able to do this, but you took into the pandemic of the ways, you took and basically.

David Horsager: Basically, took a sabbatical and left leadership of the organization, the hand of the senior leaders that you developed you had some time.

David Horsager: That you needed or felt like you needed or felt like it was best to take away and they stepped up, how are you able to do that so many times we don’t trust our big extension of trust and by.

David Horsager: The way just everybody out there knows I don’t believe you should do that anytime just because you want to like.

David Horsager: We can we have to prepare the way for that to work and somehow you did it in a way that you left and things kept running and even growing well.

David Horsager: Tell us about that.

Bobby: yeah you know, that was a hard decision and it wasn’t David in that you know embedded deeply in our culture is also, I believe our most important principle and.

Bobby: it’s team one is greater than team to, and I call my Familia and my family team one and populace group teams to and i’ve always been very vocal about.

Bobby: Making sure that everybody knows where my priorities are in that hey I love you populace group, but if my family’s threatened in any way or form i’m going to walk away from you in an instant.

Bobby: And I want you to behave the same way and so by modeling that and creating that safety for them, you know they it wasn’t a surprise to my organization.

Bobby: It was a bit of a shock to my executive team when I told them hey I have some things happening in my family and they need me and.

Bobby: Because I want to give you all everything that I have, I have to give everything that I have there and i’m going to need to step away.

Bobby: you’ve all been with me for a long time, you know what I expect i’m going to test my leadership and i’m going to extend that trust to you, I actually went as far as telling them don’t email me don’t call me unless it’s an hf call house on fire and.

Bobby: They respected that boundary and I even you know I set it up with them, and I said hey if you all have to make a big decision, and you need a tiebreaker, then you know I appointed someone as a tiebreaker.

Bobby: But it was hard to do, but it was the right thing to do so in a sense that made it very easy for me to to make that call.

Bobby: And I didn’t check a single email in five months that I was away I didn’t make a single call to any of them to check in.

Bobby: And they did a great job and one a one of the the area where i’m most proud of them David is you know you obviously know that trust is the only metric I care about.

Bobby: Our trust scores as an organization.

Bobby: Where the highest ever ever ever was and they did it without me, and so I was really proud of them for being able to do that and.

Bobby: I you know I think it’s been a very good growing experience for them and i’m just tremendously proud of what they were able to do.

David Horsager: Fantastic well there’s a whole lot more, we could talk about many more things.

David Horsager: i’d love to dive into i’m going to have i’m just gonna have to delay some of this till next time I think.

David Horsager: You know I want people to be thinking about your book the gift of struggle next time if we get another time and I haven’t had anybody on on a second time, but I definitely would be honored to have you.

David Horsager: The five questions to ask your self yearly I think that would be a good place to come back to but maybe it’s a cliffhanger people can go read your blog on the five things, everyone should ask themselves annually.

David Horsager: we’re going to put everything in the show notes that we’ve talked about, and definitely that the Bobby dash herrera.com and links to your book the gift of struggle and just a little bit more about you and the populace group i’m so.

David Horsager: grateful to know you and call you friend and so proud of you as a leader and both at home and at work, you know we always end this with one question it’s the trusted leader show who’s the Leader you trust Bobby and why.

Bobby: they’re this probably isn’t going to surprise you, but.

Bobby: yeah.

Bobby: My most trusted leader is is Jesus Christ, and just the way that he led his life and how he served and just what he left us to model, our goodness after and.

Bobby: that’s that’s the most trusted leader, that I do my best learn from because we could never be be like that we can definitely learn from from Jesus Christ.


David Horsager: From there where do we go.

David Horsager: Bobby Thank you, this has been the trusted leader show Thank you so much, Mr Bobby Herrera till next time everybody stay trusted.

Ep. 41: Bill Cates on How To Be Radically Relevant For Your Prospects

In this episode, David sits down with Bill Cates, Relationship Marketing Expert, Hall of Fame Speaker, Best Selling Author, and Entrepreneur, to discuss how you can be radically relevant for your prospects.

Buy David’s NEW Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Bill’s Bio:
Bill Cates has been an entrepreneur for almost 40 years. He has started, built, and sold two successful book publishing companies. After the sale of his second publishing company, Bill devoted the last 25 years to the art and science of relationship marketing. He has three books on the topic of referrals: Get More Referrals Now, Don’t Keep Me a Secret, and Beyond Referrals. Bill has now turned his attention to helping businesses and professionals develop and communicate more relevant and compelling value propositions to win more ideal clients or customers. His newest book is Radical Relevance – Sharpen Your Marketing Message, Cut Through the Noise, Win More Ideal Clients.

Bill’s Links:
Website: https://referralcoach.com/
“Radical Relevance” by Bill Cates: https://amzn.to/3ffJuJP
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billcates/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/ReferralCoach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Bill_Cates
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReferralCoach

Key Quotes:
1. “What is the warmest way to reach prospects?”
2. “We always want to start in the warmest place.”
3. “Look at your relationships first.”
4. “When you get in touch with your full value proposition everyone gets on the same page.”
5. “Give your clients or customers a seat at the table.”
6. “It’s quite often not the product or the core service that makes you referable, it’s the process of doing business with you.”
7. “The brain is built to take advantage of new things but only when it feels safe.”
8. “We first have to help people feel safe.”
9. “Radical relevance is a relentless pursuit of getting to know our prospects and clients.”
10. “My favorite phrase in life and business is tell me more.”
11. “Relevancy is all about context.”
12. “The more context we have about someone or a company, the better we can serve them.”
13. “Clarity is prime.”
14. “One of the biggest obstacles we face in the sales and marketing cycle is the incumbent.”
15. “The biggest thing in sales and marketing is empathy.”
16. “Fatigue makes cowards of us all.” – Vince Lombardi
17. “What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life.”
18. “Clear intentions produce clear results. Vague intentions produce vague results.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Radical Relevance” by Bill Cates: https://amzn.to/3ffJuJP
StoryBrand: https://storybrand.com/
“Biz Dev Done Right” by Caryn Kopp and Carl Gould: https://amzn.to/3jlxvM7

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager i’ve got a special guest today my friend bill cates thanks for being with the bill.

Bill Cates: hey you’re welcome and and, by the way, in case anyone misheard it’s not Bill Gates.

Bill Cates: With the GI bill kate’s I missed it by one letter a few billion brain cells and a few billion dollars, but here’s the deal, David.

Bill Cates: Bill Gates made a lot of money now he’s on a mission to give it away my mission is to help you make more money and serve more people in the process.

David Horsager: that’s right you’re a giver to I know you so bill he’s you know you’ve written several books you’ve sold a couple of publishing companies in your lifetime you’ve.

David Horsager: you’ve been in a quite an adventure on the side the Himalayas tracking and climbing kilimanjaro and and camping in the Arctic Circle and and a whole lot of other things so.

David Horsager: This is going to be a whole lot of fun, most of our time, I want to spend on your new book radical relevance i’m so intrigued by this, I remember, I think you and I were talking about it at a coffee shop or place you know in DC.

David Horsager: But you know as you’re working on it and it was so fascinating then it’s it’s an exceptional book so radical relevance you’ll find everything about that in the show notes at trusted leader show calm.

David Horsager: But um you know before we get there, tell us tell us couple other things about you, what do we need to know about bill kate’s.

Bill Cates: Oh, Lord other than I love adventure travel planning a hopefully a machine mushing trip but dog sled tripped and Finland with a friend of mine, I got married recently kind of late in life January 3 2020 right before coven hit right.

Bill Cates: yeah so i’m traveling like crazy, the first couple of months and I didn’t really see my wife, for almost two months and people say hey bill how’s married life I said, well, we haven’t seen each other, much I guess it’s good you know it’s.

David Horsager: i’ll tell you something you know we because of traveling everything we’ve had some been fortunate with what we do and you and i’ve done some similar things traveling around the world world work on six continents and so we’ve gotten to take some spring breaks different places.

David Horsager: And finally, it was a few years ago, you know i’m in i’m a minnesotan and I said I have been traveling so much this year spring break we are staying home we’re gonna be minnesotans.

David Horsager: So we went up to northern Minnesota we went.

David Horsager: mushing in Minnesota it was on believable then we went ice fishing for it, then we went to the hockey hall of fame and Evelyn Minnesota then we went to.

David Horsager: Have a Friday fish dinner at this little community and hitting Minnesota the iron range and anyway, we did miss up, but when we look back on maybe our favorite spring break it was right in our own back your yard and was mushing and stay in a year, and it was amazing so.

Bill Cates: yeah yeah that’s that sounds very minnesotan.

David Horsager: yeah sure you betcha.

David Horsager: So tell me, you know before we get into this you’ve been in relationship marketing, for a long time you you sold your their first companies, I might even come back around to that, but.

David Horsager: As far as publishing companies but tell me what what’s I think people have different views of what’s relationship marketing.

Bill Cates: yeah so and lately, you know there’s been a kind of a convergence of the traditional if you want to call that relationship is more of the traditional and the digital so i’m kind of calling it tread digital.

Bill Cates: But even in the digital things that we work on they’re still the relationships so, for instance.

Bill Cates: we’re always thinking in the the warmest source, what is the warmest way to reach prospects.

Bill Cates: What is the warmest way to attract we always want to start in the warmest place you know a lot of people get caught up in doing.

Bill Cates: Facebook ads and linkedin this and using the the bots that will get you kicked off a linkedin and all that right.

Bill Cates: But and i’m not saying that that doesn’t have a place for some folks but how would someone prefer to meet you most of the businesses that I work with and consult with.

Bill Cates: Their ideal clients would prefer to meet them through a warm source someone they already trust we want to use that borrowed trust.

Bill Cates: So referrals personal introductions social event marketing centers of influence, all the different ways we use the existing relationships in our life to get what we want to get done.

Bill Cates: And what I say to folks if you’re trying to meet someone or you know meet certain types of people or get it problem solve.

Bill Cates: Look at your relationships first right that should be your first Google search, if you will, is what what relationships, do you have in place and odds are if you’ve got a problem you know, someone has had the same problem they’ve figured out you just got to get connected to those people.

David Horsager: By the way, you did it a big event from a whole Minnesota group just a week ago and they I was hoping to be there, but they said, you did a fantastic job speaking of relationships that told me directly.

David Horsager: So.

Bill Cates: When I show, and I did miss you there I you were conspicuously absent Oh well, thank you.

David Horsager: So you know you’ve been a generous giver I think that’s a part of relationships is that you are giving you’re helping you’re connecting you’re adding value.

David Horsager: But we got to jump into this book because i’m really excited about it radical relevance sharpen your marketing message cut through the noise when more ideal clients why this book and why now.

Bill Cates: yeah well why this book there’s two main reasons there’s two main barriers to meeting people building our businesses and one is the marketing message overload.

Bill Cates: Right, so we do have to cut through all that noise people have erected all kinds of barriers to keep all the noise out right because so much isn’t relevant.

Bill Cates: And anything that isn’t relevant they want to ignore and if it’s slightly relevant they still want.

Bill Cates: It so that’s one of the obstacles that were one of the reasons I wrote the book, the other.

Bill Cates: Is it is inertia right people are either moving in a certain direction they’re resisting change they’ve got their head down they.

Bill Cates: They don’t want to take the time to look at a new option, even though the option may be better they may have problems that they need to solve but they’re moving so dang fast.

Bill Cates: That they’re just kind of willing to live with those problems because of the speed or on the flip side there they’re just stuck right there, doing nothing they’re confused.

Bill Cates: And if they’re confused they’re not going to move forward, this is by the way, all of this we’re talking about also works inside an organization it’s not just.

Bill Cates: An external marketing your product but, and we can get to that, but in any event, those are the two main things that I wrote the book is how do we reach people, how do we get them to listen to our message.

Bill Cates: And then, how do we get them to move and to take the action that’s in their best interest right what’s always going to be concerning that it’s in their best interest to do that.

David Horsager: I think you know we talked about the eight pillars of trust, all the time, and you, you hit it on out of the park on to.

David Horsager: Maybe on all of them, but I to really stood out and one is clarity, people have so much issue with clarity, we know that people trust the clear and they miss trust or distrust the ambiguous or the overly complex, most people aren’t.

David Horsager: And the other pillar you hit it on the out of the park on and and you just do this in life and that’s the connection pillar connecting and collaborating we, we have to connect with people to market well let’s jump to one.

David Horsager: Part I think is fascinating and that is, you have a different view of value propositions from the inside.

David Horsager: Like let’s be clear there, because if we’re clear there you have a chance at being clear outwardly Can you help explain that.

Bill Cates: yeah so a lot of people I believe confused and maybe it’s just semantics, but.

Bill Cates: people think when they think of value proposition they think of elevator pitch they think of that short succinct way to talk about our value, and we, and we do need to have a short succinct way to talk about it for certain circumstances.

Bill Cates: But in my mind the value proposition is really from the minute you meet a prospective client onboarding them serving them ongoing.

Bill Cates: Everything you do the questions you asked the things you teach the service you render that’s that’s your value proposition that’s where all the points.

David Horsager: That seems too vague and ambiguous, how do I get clear about that.

Bill Cates: Well, first of all, one of the things I help organizations do the ones who wanted begin with this or that is get everybody in the organization, or at least key people.

Bill Cates: And dig through all of that, and really figure out what are all the points of value and it’s amazing how people.

Bill Cates: buy into the mission and the vision of the business when they get in touch with all the places we provide value, because you know employees.

Bill Cates: They won’t have a sense of the work that they’re doing to that external customers, making a difference for those people right and.

Bill Cates: And so, when you get in touch with your full value proposition everyone gets on the same page actually people get excited about the work they do.

Bill Cates: And then from there you do start to narrow it down a little bit you start to think about all right, what do we want to communicate what’s going to resonate best with our prospective customers and customers.

Bill Cates: And from there, we draw the shorter more succinct ways of talking about our value.

Bill Cates: But first we do that big work and and it’s just better you don’t have to do that, to come up with ways to talk about your business but it’s better work.

Bill Cates: And then, what I always recommend is you take this work that you’ve done and then you talk to some of your customers or clients.

Bill Cates: You know, in my book radical relevance, I have the 17 rules of radical relevance and number two is give your clients or customers a seat at the table.

Bill Cates: And many businesses do that with you know advisory boards and things like that larger businesses do it with focus groups but that’s critical, we should never develop this in a vacuum.

Bill Cates: Right, we should never we we have a good sense of what people want but it’s not exactly what they want, and we want to hear it from them because we’re going to come up with words and phrases that we wouldn’t even think of that our clients customers prospects, think of.

David Horsager: hmm if you when you see a company and they kind of put all these values, you know when you see employees get excited like what’s something that.

David Horsager: is sometimes surprising to a to an employee to say.

David Horsager: Oh, I didn’t even know we offer that feeling i’m so excited to be a part of this group because look at this we offer this value I didn’t even really say in the mission statement or or no or see and now that I do, I feel I feel more a part of this.

Bill Cates: yeah so it’s a couple of places one is is the problems that we solve for our clients or customers a lot of times the employees don’t realize.

Bill Cates: The state of affairs that that someone comes to us in and their confusion and their uncertainty and the problem that they’re facing.

Bill Cates: Whether it’s bleeding money or or whatever it might be, and a lot of the internal folks don’t know that they don’t see the full picture.

Bill Cates: And so, where they see how they really helped that that company that person, but even more so, is they see how that affects a lot of other people so, for instance.

Bill Cates: One company that I consult with up in Canada works with a lot of CEOs a lot of leaders and they help the leaders become better leaders.

Bill Cates: And that’s cool and that’s neat and but one of the things they weren’t really fully grasping that I think I helped them with a little bit is that when they help leaders get better.

Bill Cates: That helps everyone in the organization right because a better leader, a more enlightened leader, a more rested leader, you name it.

Bill Cates: Effects impacts, the lives of hundreds, thousands of people right and so when they see that full impact of their value that’s what they get excited about that.

Bill Cates: And the other little place is sometimes a lot of people don’t realize how much we can often help people aren’t even clients or customers yet.

Bill Cates: Just in the prospect experience justin that you know that determining are we a fit, are you a fit this it makes it a courtship.

Bill Cates: We bring a lot of value and we help and a lot of people get very excited about that, because they didn’t realize how we help people who don’t even become customers or clients.

David Horsager: I think the key there is like I think something I hope our our team is proud of, is how we do things the way we do it, it matters so it’s like.

David Horsager: hey i’m proud to be here because we do it differently than that we we had something where.

David Horsager: Just today, we had a big contract come in and that’s when we said hey we made a place for this smaller kind of nonprofit thing that we committed to.

David Horsager: So we don’t just go tell them.

David Horsager: up not doing this we’re going to take this big amount we’re gonna we keep this commitment and them, seeing that it’s like I love being a part of this, where we keep commitments, where we.

David Horsager: Do we say I mean I think there’s a thing, and how we treat people how we treat each other how we, you know I think people love to be a part of not that we certainly don’t do it perfectly I think there’s something there.

Bill Cates: Well, in you know in my in when I talk about referrals and introductions it’s quite often not the product or the service or the core service that makes you referral.

Bill Cates: it’s it’s the process of doing business with you it’s a process of learning about the product and the service that you offer it’s the process of the delivery of all of that so.

Bill Cates: We need to make two types of connections with our clients or customers, we got to make a value connection we got to make a personal connection.

Bill Cates: The value connection questions you ask things you teach responsive service all that sort of good stuff.

Bill Cates: But then the personal connection how we interact with people how we, you know, keep our commitments, how we apologize if we make a mistake that whole how we create business friendships sometimes along the way.

Bill Cates: that’s what makes us referral and that’s what makes the experience worth talking about the other people it’s the process.

David Horsager: that’s so good, you know you talked about something we were on problems, a moment ago, you talked about the difference between aspirational versus critical.

David Horsager: problems.

David Horsager: Tell us about that.

Bill Cates: yeah so I actually got this from a gentleman by name of Michael Scott, out of Boston and.

Bill Cates: it’s the last chapter in my.

Bill Cates: book and.

Bill Cates: He outlines a graph think of it this way, so we got.

Bill Cates: that everyone is sitting on problems that are latent they don’t know they have the problem.

Bill Cates: And they’re in there either critical or their aspirational right, so if we have a problem that we don’t know about well we don’t know about it and so we’re not going to do anything about.

Bill Cates: Right so sometimes some people in the sale and marketing of products and services, we have to inform people to help them realize there is this issue there is this problem.

Bill Cates: But if it’s aspirational if it’s something they’re going to get to someday yeah i’ll do that eventually yeah yeah they might act they might not and some people will act on aspirational things.

Bill Cates: We don’t leave it out, but if it’s critical if there’s a deadline if they’re bleeding money if they’re in some sort of pain.

Bill Cates: And if it’s a B2B sale there’s a corporate pain and then there’s the personal pain that they’re feeling they’re under a lot of pressure, whatever right.

Bill Cates: They will move heaven and earth to solve a blatant critical problem, so we either want to organize our business around blatant critical problems, so that we go out to the market.

Bill Cates: Serving people who know they have the problem, or we better have a good educational process a way to help them realize.

Bill Cates: The problem is, is there and that it’s a critical problem, or we may not move people we’re going to be frustrated I just got off a consulting call with a firm around that.

Bill Cates: And people too many people are putting them off they’re doing this first and we got to do this, first we got to do this first so they’re not showing the critical nature and the cost of doing nothing.

Bill Cates: Right, sometimes we have to ask what happens if we do nothing, and if it’s an aspirational problem they’ll say well not not much you know i’ll live with it, but yeah.

David Horsager: I mean I this is so critical and not to say.

Bill Cates: critical but not overdo it or not.

David Horsager: This is why we’re we’re way more motivated by pain than pleasure oh you’ll give me 20 bucks I might come up and get it oh you put a tack on my seat out i’m jumping you know it’s like we’re so much more motivated by pain to act.

Bill Cates: I would say that’s true yes and the brain is is geared that way so and but we don’t want to discount the aspirational Let me explain so in Chapter three of my book is the neuroscience of relevance.

David Horsager: I wanted to get to that.

Bill Cates: yeah and I hurt my brain right in the chapter, but and I had three neuroscientist who I consulted with to make sure I was getting it right.

Bill Cates: Because had you write one chapter on neuroscience but, nonetheless, one thing I learned a lot of things one was that the brain every six times a second.

Bill Cates: Is scanning right it’s unconscious obviously where Am I am I safe where that’s the keep the body, the organism alive.

Bill Cates: And then, three times a second it’s going is there an opportunity squirrel right, so the brain is built for opportunity to build the brain is built to take advantage of new things, but only when it feels safe.

Bill Cates: So that’s why in marketing and expressing our value, and this is also internal in an organization if we’re trying to get people to buy into our ideas internally.

Bill Cates: We first have to help people feel safe they, we have to show that we have empathy understanding appreciation for the challenges that they’re facing.

Bill Cates: Because they want to fix those first and then usually the aspirational and the goal is that’s kind of the really just the other side of the same coin.

Bill Cates: Right you solve this problem, and then they get freed up for the aspirational same thing with maslow’s hierarchy right you got to fix these critical things first before you can think in terms of self self actualization right.

Bill Cates: So both of those are important, and so what I tend to do is in my marketing and my influence work.

Bill Cates: I tend to start with an empathy for someone’s situation and problems and they that they want to fix need to fix.

Bill Cates: But I don’t forget about the things they also want to accomplish and and their goals and their aspirations, because you never know exactly what’s going to trigger their attention and motivation.

Bill Cates: Because a lot of people are motivated by the aspirational, so I do both you just and then you’re hitting the whole brain right.

David Horsager: yeah exactly you know you talk about something, you know that, and this is, we all have problems and you kind of give a framework for solving problems, but you you, you talk about.

David Horsager: How to even determine this kind of this model for solving problems determining the problems to solve, for clients or or businesses right to give us a little bit of a hint inside of that.

Bill Cates: yeah so the whole thing of radical relevance is is just a relentless pursuit of getting to know our prospects and clients it’s and you know when pandemic kit it became more important than ever before, and the businesses that actually thrived.

Bill Cates: into the pandemic and hopefully knock on wood beyond are the ones who took that time to go back to their customers or clients and say.

Bill Cates: Look we’re all going through a challenge to hear what are your biggest challenges, what do you need right now.

Bill Cates: Forget about what we do, what do you need maybe we can help you maybe we can introduce you to someone who can help you right, I want to focus on you now what happened.

Bill Cates: Is a lot of clients, I worked with in other businesses, so I interview for the work I do.

Bill Cates: they’re getting more referrals than ever before, more unsolicited referrals than ever before, because they took that time.

Bill Cates: To truly listen to what the the clients situation was what the problems were.

Bill Cates: And not just what the corporate problem was, but how does that that person, how are they relating to the problem there’s always two levels to that problem.

Bill Cates: And you know, Donald Miller and story brand right and he talks about the the villain is kind of the external problem that that person and the company faces.

Bill Cates: But then there’s the internal internal part of that and getting to know the person.

Bill Cates: The nice thing about the pandemic, I mean there’s a lot of bad things about it, obviously, but one of the neat things is is a lot of people became more transparent, more vulnerable, if you will, and just more real right and all that.

David Horsager: fun, as you know, they got you got the CEO with the four year old with they’re running behind with their undies and they got the cat jumping on the computer.

Bill Cates: it’s true I I when I watched my daughter’s cats you walk by a black cat walking by the middle of a of a you know, a virtual presentation I warn people.

Bill Cates: But that that happened and that’s a good thing, I think right, because I think that’ll that little piece that little forgiving aspect.

Bill Cates: I don’t think we’ll ever go away, I think I think we’re going to be a little more forgiving of people when it comes to this sort of stuff so.

Bill Cates: You know back to the problem issue is one of the things we need to do when we discover someone has a problem.

Bill Cates: Is, we need to figure out of course what the impact of the problem is right, how is that impacting the company, how is that impacting you.

Bill Cates: And then we keep asking tell me more tell me more get deeper and deeper because there’s layers of an onion and then we get to the essence and that’s when we can come in and really be that guide and help that.

David Horsager: So walk me through that let’s just take.

David Horsager: What I got a problem, how do I get to that you, it looks like this first like take somebody as an example, like it looked like this, and when the the essence looked like this, like what was the difference between the outward showing and with the essence being.

Bill Cates: yeah Okay, so one of the companies that I work with in Canada, where we help them go from 100 clients to 1000 clients in seven years.

Bill Cates: And we’re talking about $10,000 a year per client or more so that’s a big piece of growth.

Bill Cates: what they were doing when they first got started is they were kind of thing on the surface, they were saying you know.

Bill Cates: This is it you know it’s lonely at the top, being a CEO it’s you need more people around you to to help you and feel more camaraderie and all that, and you know what that attracted a lot of people.

Bill Cates: And that was really good however there’s always there’s always deeper parts to that so, then you say, well, tell me more about that right my my favorite phrase in life and business is tell me more.

Bill Cates: yeah right someone says yeah this is this is causing an issue I you know i’m sorry to hear that tell me more well you know my employees are now they’re just or i’m getting.

Bill Cates: Pressure from the board all right well tell me more about that what’s that looking like and they’ll talk a little bit more.

Bill Cates: And then and and and then, of course, you know i’m working too many hours and so i’m getting home i’m getting pressure from my spouse to and sorry about tell me more about that and so just this tell me more and and other questions like, why is that important to you.

Bill Cates: Or why is that important to your organization, these are the digging kind of questions that a lot of people don’t ask they stay on the surface and.

Bill Cates: It doesn’t mean you can’t be of some value to those people, but relevancy is all about context, so the more context we have about someone and accompany.

Bill Cates: The better we can serve them and some of that context we get from you know the work we do before we meet them the research we do.

Bill Cates: From the referral source from the Internet and then most of the the in depth context we get is from from helping these people discover.

Bill Cates: discover how they feel about it sometimes they’re running so fast they don’t even realize how it’s impacting them.

Bill Cates: And so that’s what I mean by getting to the essence of the problem and that’s, by the way, how we often get to that critical nature of the problem right, because when they say you know if I don’t fix this the board of directors is probably going to let me go right.

Bill Cates: that’s what a CEO could say and alright, so now they’re feeling it right, and maybe they never made it to even to themselves before they kind of had a sense of it, but when they speak it out it’s like it becomes real.

Bill Cates: And that’s when people will move heaven and earth to fix the problem and so that’s I hope that makes sense I yep that’s.

David Horsager: that’s fantastic I can remember a senior leader saying to me, you know $300 billion organization saying.

David Horsager: here’s The bottom line David I haven’t told anybody this, but I feel the weight of the world in the pit in my stomach every morning when I wake up with the responsibility of this work so.

David Horsager: there’s so much more in this book, I want to touch on to other things that stood out and that you know.

David Horsager: We could we could go anywhere, people can get it radical relevance and I think interestingly, a lot of what you’re saying is as well, some of it is simple people don’t do it it’s listening listen to your clients listen to your customers listen to your.

Bill Cates: People.

David Horsager: You know, no doubt about it, but you talk about the dear sweet strategic and tactical relevance yeah tell me about that.

Bill Cates: yeah so strategic relevance are kind of the big decisions right or the bigger decisions like who fits and who doesn’t fit your business.

Bill Cates: Who are you trying to attract and who you no longer trying to attract and every business needs to.

Bill Cates: visit this from time to time, and so within that is the target market, what is your target market are you clear on that what is the bullseye in that market.

Bill Cates: Right and when I say bullseye that we call them right fit clients, some people call them ideal personas avatars is a lot of words, that people bandy about around this.

Bill Cates: But it’s clarity around that and and you’re right clarity is is prime, by the way, there’s brain science around that because the brain is trying to keep the organism alive alright, so the brain is trying to expand fewer calories right, even though we’re trying to you know.

Bill Cates: burn calories to lose weight, or whatever right, but the brains fighting against us.

Bill Cates: And anytime it comes across a message.

Bill Cates: that’s confusing uncertain guess what the brain resist going there, I mean it can you can go there and figure it out, but the brain doesn’t want to go there because it’s not clear and and brain wants clarity, as you said right.

Bill Cates: So yeah so so we’ve got to make sure that at every step of the long way way where we’re being clear on what we want, who we want to serve how we reach those people, etc, so that’s kind of the strategic side of things.

Bill Cates: The tactical is really, of course, the implementation of that so, for instance.

Bill Cates: reaching out to prospective clients now we’re in a little bit of the sales mode here right where, how do you differentiate yourself from competitors, you can have strategic differentiation but eventually it comes down to the tactical.

Bill Cates: How do you separate yourself from someone specially you know, one of the biggest obstacles we face in the sales and marketing cycle is is the incumbent.

Bill Cates: The person is already in place serving that particular prospect, how do we separate ourselves from that person, without making that other company look bad.

Bill Cates: Because you don’t want to question the decisions that your prospect has made you don’t want to say look, you know you chose is wrong company because there’s.

David Horsager: One idea how would I do it.

David Horsager: I gotta go in that guy’s been selling there forever they kind of like him Okay, but how am I going to unseat the income and I have something better.

Bill Cates: yeah so first of all it’s getting to know your your your the world that you’re serving and then getting to know your prospect, the best you possibly can.

Bill Cates: And that’s working through referrals and personal introductions as you best you can, which is what i’ve been teaching forever.

Bill Cates: But even if you don’t meet them through referral it’s doing a lot of homework and really getting to know, and so, then you quite often do up to the questions you ask.

Bill Cates: So the biggest the biggest thing and sales and marketing is empathy empathy is not the same as sympathy empathy is understanding of and appreciation for someone situation.

Bill Cates: And we can often demonstrate our knowledge and our awareness and appreciation for their situation to the questions we ask.

Bill Cates: So that’s one way to separate ourselves a little bit and demonstrate, we know them but i’ll give you a specific formula.

Bill Cates: And I got this from Karen cop, who wrote a book called biz Dev done right and she’s a colleague of ours and our association and I feature this in my book radical relevance and it goes like this we’re going to get super tactical here, anyone can only we can, for example.

Bill Cates: or a lot of people can very few can, for example, all right so look any any consultant any sales trainer can talk about trust and building trust and they do.

Bill Cates: But we.

Bill Cates: Are the only firm that actually puts out an annual trust report where we do empirical you know validated statistical research that draws the straight line between trust and the dollar and all the stuff that you guys do right so i’m kind of using you.

Bill Cates: i’m butchering it i’m sure.

David Horsager: it’s great we are.

Bill Cates: Right and then and then, for example on the, for example, is very important because whatever you might say about what you do and how you might do a little differently.

Bill Cates: You need to bring it to life, you need to make it real for people and it’s the, for example, and that’s where I share a little mini case study.

Bill Cates: Right, for example, here’s how it shows up right with a client, the other day, or we do this trust study could be the, for example.

Bill Cates: And so that’s a way that we separate ourselves anyone can, but only we do this right, and if you do something in a way that that other firm doesn’t do, that is a clear benefit to the prospect that’s got to be translated to a benefit then they’re going to go oh.

Bill Cates: Tell me more.

Bill Cates: And it’s hard to rustle.

Bill Cates: people away from the you know the the incumbent because sometimes the devil they knows better than Dell they don’t know and.

Bill Cates: And here here goes your trust stuff right you got to build that trust and credibility and connection and all those things that you talk about goes hand in hand with it with the stuff that I talked about there’s no it.


David Horsager: I love it wow we could go all day on this it’s fantastic just just let’s get personal for a second you know your your lifelong learner.

David Horsager: you’re you’re you’ve built.

David Horsager: Business for 40 years what what are you learning now what’s new.

Bill Cates: What am I learning now well i’ll tell you I read a quote recently from vince lombardi and some people will be old enough to remember vince lombardi the coach of the green Bay packers, and this is stuck with me and it served me well, and he said fatigue makes cowards of us all.

Bill Cates: And so you know, David when i’m getting into a negative spin of thoughts and we all get there, from time to time I don’t care how positive, we are an optimistic that we are we get to that.

Bill Cates: And then I just take a timeout and I go on being negative what’s going on here i’m tired.

Bill Cates: And just that awareness of the fact that i’m being tired i’m turning into a wimp i’m turning negative and then I just do something different, I go listen to music i’ll you know just a break the state.

Bill Cates: And i’ll get into something different so that’s one big lesson, let me give you another one.

Bill Cates: And everybody kind of knows this, but.

Bill Cates: What you put your attention on and grow stronger in your life right now Earl Nightingale and the strangest thing and strangest secret years ago said what you think about you become.

Bill Cates: And gosh, the more we become aware of that, the more we focus on it and there’s an there’s a related to that that clear intentions produce clear results vague intentions produce vague results.

Bill Cates: Right when we’re clear then guess what happens, we start making different decisions we start taking action in subtle ways that we don’t even know that we created that to ourselves.

Bill Cates: Because of our clarity and so we’re going to draw the right things to us when we’re clear and when we stay focused there’s a consistency of focus and clarity, they work together so that’s what i’ve been learning and thinking about, and you know, putting into.

Bill Cates: Practice in my own business.

David Horsager: wow we can’t beat that.

David Horsager: Mic drop.

David Horsager: Here we go.

David Horsager: He makes cowards of us all.

David Horsager: it’s true intention equals clear results they contention egos vague results and a whole lot more hey for everybody out there.

David Horsager: You can find out more about bill kate’s all of his books and his newest book radical relevance at trusted leader show.com you’ll see the show notes there’s everything about bill the things that he’s mentioned or everything he wants to have public facing.

David Horsager: is true right.

David Horsager: So trusted leader show calm we’ll put in the show notes.

David Horsager: This has been fantastic last question, we asked everybody it’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Bill Cates: You know, David I knew you’re gonna ask me this and, and you know my first thought was politics and i’m going i’m not going there.

Bill Cates: Because, even if I think of somebody who’s going to divide half of the listening audience, so why even go there.

Bill Cates: And now and in the then a name popped into my mind is someone you know someone, no one has heard of on this podcast i’m pretty sure.

Bill Cates: And it’s a gentleman by the name of Barry banter and Barry is the current chairman of the board of the national speakers association.

Bill Cates: NSA not not not the NSA that you’re thinking about they’re, the ones who listen were the ones who talk and.

Bill Cates: But he’s the chairman of the board, and when I think of integrity and I think of someone I can trust and has the perfect mix.

Bill Cates: Of a little bit of spiciness and a sense of humor and a little interesting history, but with a mild trusting steady intellectual manner.

Bill Cates: Right, you need a little bit of both a little bit of spice and a little bit of that, and you know there that that’s one of the guys I go to battle with right, I know, one of the guys that I would trust to be holding the rope for me when i’m hanging off the edge of the of the cliff.

David Horsager: And everybody in in those Barry banter would be like oh yeah I didn’t think of it absolutely.

Bill Cates: We got maker here’s this right.

David Horsager: Exactly I mean it’s like wow and, by the way, he’s trusted by some of the wealthiest people in the world.

David Horsager: As far as personally because he’s confidential he’s private in the appropriate ways he’s he’s and he’s brilliant so that’s a great one there’s a lot more, we could say, Mr Bill kate’s what a treat i’m thankful.

David Horsager: To call you my friend and i’m grateful for your wisdom you’ve made me better and you continue to, and so I want to thank you especially for coming today, this has been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

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