Ep. 46: M. Gasby Brown on The Commonality Of The Most Effective CEOs

In this episode, David sits down with M. Gasby Brown, CEO of The Gasby Group, Author, Visual Artist, as well as a Nonprofit and Philanthropy Expert, to discuss the commonality of the most effective CEOs.

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Gasby’s Bio:
M. Gasby Brown has a passion for the nonprofit sector that is beyond the norm. She heads a consulting firm that believes strongly in the power of well-run nonprofit organizations, board governance, programmatic strength, and ethical fundraising that leads to changing lives and impacting the world. Her cabinet level experience in organizations such as Greenpeace, National Urban League and The Washington National Opera, placed her in leadership positions that were instrumental in restructuring organizations, recalibrating program models, reenergizing boards and senior staff, and enhancing fundraising. It’s not surprising that she is the product of Harvard University’s Kennedy School where she earned a Master’s Degree in Public Administration (MPA). At MIT she was a team member in the renowned Media Lab where she conducted advanced research in new communications technology. Gasby is an entrepreneur, author, professor, visual artist, thought-leader, meeting facilitator, podcast host, as well as a nonprofit and philanthropy expert. Her Christian faith is woven through all of her accomplishments.

Gasby’s Links:
Website: https://www.thegasbygroup.com/
“Business of a Spiritual Matter” by M. Gasby Brown: https://amzn.to/38BXvxJ
Gasby’s Art: https://nopermissionneeded.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-gasby-group-9b33104/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007176917626
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thegasbygroup/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/GasbyBrown

Key Quotes:
1. “The non-profit sector represents an opportunity to serve the least of these.”
2. “If you call yourself a leader and no one is following then you’re just taking a walk.” – Unknown
3. “Laser-like focus on what needs to be done is the lynchpin for any leader.”
4. “There needs to be racial literacy.”
5. “Always be open to learning new things.”
6. “It’s not in the thinking about it, it’s in the doing.”
7. “CEOs who are most effective have that sense of humility.”
8. “We have to meet people where they are.”
9. “Relationship is so important when building trust.”
10. “Many are called but few are chosen.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Business of a Spiritual Matter” by M. Gasby Brown: https://amzn.to/38BXvxJ
“Think Again” by Adam Grant: https://amzn.to/38Gpxbc
“Just As I Am” by Cicely Tyson: https://amzn.to/3thhJ9l
“Half Of A Yellow Sun” by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: https://amzn.to/3zJe1YF
“The Topeka School” by Ben Lerner: https://amzn.to/3yK6Wpc
“Not On This Board You Don’t” by Arthur Frantzreb: https://amzn.to/3BDeAUd

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Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a special guest with today.

David Horsager: She is the CEO of The Gasby Group she’s a product of Harvard university’s Kennedy.

David Horsager: school and she’s done research at the renowned media lab at MIT.

David Horsager: Some have called her the philanthropic guru and the nonprofit myth busters she is an author she’s an artist and she’s a friend so right off the BAT i’ll say we serve on a university board together and we become friends and I.

David Horsager: admire her wisdom and I just plain liker so thank you for being on the show today M. Gasby Brown.

Gasby Brown: Oh, David Thank you so much, thank you for that wonderful introduction I liked everything you said, by the way.

Gasby Brown: And it has been just a joy to for us to get to know one another and become friends, so thank you for having me here today.

David Horsager: Well, thank you let’s start with just a little background and what you’ve been most passionate about these days.

Gasby Brown: Well, these days, i’m very interested in a number of things one the whole space of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice.

Gasby Brown: The whole space of getting to know oneself in this sort of post pandemic, but not post pandemic error and which we were forced to confront.

Gasby Brown: who we are, who we want to be so, I have a keen interest in that introspection that that has caused and i’m very, very interested in philanthropy and the nonprofit space and what’s going on in the world, I really love humankind and I have a heart for it.

David Horsager: we’re going to jump into several of these things, and what you see as far as leaders in fact I think there’s.

David Horsager: there’s some interesting things with with with nonprofits we want to get to actually will jump there now come back to personal in a moment.

David Horsager: What, what do you think you said something that I thought was interesting, I want to hear our listeners dear why you think nonprofits are so important in the US economy and in our world.

Gasby Brown: Well, there are three sectors that drive the United States, the government business and the nonprofit sector, which is responsible for trillions of dollars that.

Gasby Brown: contribute to our gross national and domestic product, and I think people underestimate that.

Gasby Brown: On top of that, the nonprofit world in the sector can accomplish things that government cannot because of its bureaucratic nature.

Gasby Brown: It can accomplish things that businesses are not necessarily interested in in making that their primary source of.

Gasby Brown: A focus, they are in business to make money and to make profits and to be profitable for shareholders, so the nonprofit sector represents an opportunity to serve the least of these.

Gasby Brown: And that’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s so important because, when there is a good mission for nonprofit there is there is nothing comparable to it.

David Horsager: So, when you say think i’m going to hold up a one of your books, too, because i’ve been in business.

David Horsager: Of a spiritual matter what all leaders of faith based nonprofits should know, can you give us that top idea share a bit about this piece that you created so well.

Gasby Brown: Well nonprofits are businesses, even though it’s a nonprofit nonprofit does not mean no profit.

Gasby Brown: And there are similarities and the way corporations and businesses are formed and how they operate and how nonprofits operate, but too often.

Gasby Brown: nonprofits get so bogged down in its mission until some of the infrastructure that’s needed for it to sustain itself.

Gasby Brown: It gets lost and so acting like a business, making sure that there are strategies, a strategic plan which which which they are following.

Gasby Brown: making sure that they know their donors, while corporation know corporations know in those in the consumer service industry, they know their customers.

Gasby Brown: nonprofits need to know their donors, it needs to be donor centered Who are they who is giving to you, and why.

Gasby Brown: And so there’s so many similarities along those lines fiscal responsibility.

Gasby Brown: boards, why are they important for both nonprofits and for corporations and what is the difference between them and there’s little difference, other than corporate board members get paid and nonprofit board members don’t.

David Horsager: You and I don’t.

Gasby Brown: know we.

Gasby Brown: were looking.

Gasby Brown: we’re looking to do something about that right.

David Horsager: I think this is interesting because you know.

David Horsager: Over I think it was over 20 years ago Lisa and I were asked to be on our first board, it was for a nonprofit they were very mission and nature doing this great work in orphanages around the world, they were a young.

David Horsager: A young nonprofit and I still remember, they would come back from these this work overseas to some of the poorest places in the world, we believed in their mission and yet every time we bring up strategy.

David Horsager: Finances funding this, they say, oh no it’ll just work out.

David Horsager: And in two years, they were nowhere to be found not doing anything Michelle because they would not, in essence, as you say, think like a business.

David Horsager: What do you think you know listening, today we have a lot entrepreneurs, we have a lot of moms and dads that are leaders, we have a lot of executive chro CEOs and and so on, and we have a lot of.

David Horsager: nonprofit leaders, but what would you say to.

David Horsager: A nonprofit leader or a business leader you think this is a key to think about how we could work together better in the future nonprofits in business.

Gasby Brown: Well, an old mother in the church that I attended said, if you call yourself a leader and no one is following then you’re just taking a walk.

Gasby Brown: i’ve had like that, and I think john Maxwell picked it up later and others have quoted it who knows where it came from, but it’s worthy quote.

Gasby Brown: I end with business leaders, they need to be involved with nonprofits and philanthropy.

Gasby Brown: That is one of the signs of a civic and business leader, to be able to lead in that regard, while leading the business that they are in.

Gasby Brown: So in historically, we have seen that with the Rockefellers the carnegie’s in this country and others who have led the way it’s philanthropists.

Gasby Brown: And then, it is for the nonprofit leader to be in the position to be trusted that’s why I like what you do so much to be that trusted leader in which people can say a which people can say.

Gasby Brown: We believe that our money, our treasure our time is being invested in the in the right way and invested wisely.


David Horsager: let’s jump to personal for a minute, because you have advised and served on many of the most significant of boards, even in our country, and you advised leaders and presidents and.

David Horsager: So, but let’s jump to you and I, personally, what I found at least is people that I admire as leaders, we might say onstage.

David Horsager: Lead themselves quite well offstage imperfect, as we are what are some things do you have habits or routines that you do to lead yourself well because you’re so asked to be an advisor to others, what do you, what do you do daily to lead yourself well.

Gasby Brown: It is so fundamental for me, first of all I get up early i’m a morning person I get up at 6am.

Gasby Brown: And the other thing that I do and I heard a gym talk about this and i’ve been practicing it a general in the army, I make up my bed, which gives finality and a initiation this day is really starting.

Gasby Brown: Then the other thing is to have devotions I use a scriptural devotion in the mornings, to help guide me and Center me for the rest of the day.

Gasby Brown: And then do a to do list and i’m checking off those things that take place and that needs to take place that are nice to take place and those things that I can do tomorrow.

Gasby Brown: So it really does help to prioritize what needs to be done, and I find that those habits have centered me in a way that i’m focused and with so many.

Gasby Brown: Obvious distractions in the world with emails and ID and all of that, I I tend not to go down rabbit holes as much, and I think that is focus laser like focus on what needs to be done is the linchpin for any leader.


David Horsager: Well, what you know I gotta get we’re going to get back to other kinds of leadership here in our time together, but I also think that something.

David Horsager: When I hear about great leaders that are working hard they’re feeling the weight of board work and other things they often have.

David Horsager: Something else they do some something you know, a hobby or release and this kind of thing and I just have to hold up.

David Horsager: Something from from my dear friend gadsby for those that are watching this on YouTube you’ll have to watch it for the rest of you on podcasts you’re not going to see this, but this is an amazing.

David Horsager: Beautiful painting that is painted by none other than none other than em gadsby brown i’m assuming some of those paintings behind you also are your work of art.

David Horsager: tell us how you got into art because it’s it’s kind of a leadership story you’re self taught, but you know tell us about what that means to you and how you started and kind of what it means to your whole life now.

Gasby Brown: Yes, well all of these pieces behind me, I have created and around 2002.

Gasby Brown: I was having these dreams and visions David they were so pervasive until they never left me.

Gasby Brown: When I was awake I would think about it, driving along think about these visions of painting trees and other objects and, finally, I just woke up one morning and.

Gasby Brown: And announced to my husband, that I was going to start painting, so I just started to paint I had never painted in my life before.

Gasby Brown: And so I went to the arts and crafts store and got paints and brushes and canvas and began my journey.

Gasby Brown: Some people laughed at me because they know me to be in this philanthropic and nonprofit space and others were my cheerleaders who said.

Gasby Brown: Do it, why not, and one in particular said hang up all your art around your House, and I did whether was worthy or not, because I was doing it to be static I just couldn’t.

Gasby Brown: continue to live with what was in my heart in my head so with that.

Gasby Brown: After hanging them around in my husband and I entertained a lot at that time people started coming by and then they began to ask, yes, be, how can we get a piece of your.

Gasby Brown: heart, excuse me it’s making me coffee, as I speak, because it was so incredible for anyone wanting to buy the art that I created.

Gasby Brown: And so my husband, who is a great marketing guru said we’re going to have a show, and we did have my first art show.

Gasby Brown: And the four year of the Jefferson hotel on 16th and him in Washington DC and sold over 30 pieces of my art I didn’t know what I didn’t know so I didn’t even know that was good until.

Gasby Brown: I began to kind of navigate around with a few artists, then they said oh we’re really very fortunate we sell to the three pieces at a show, and so I felt.

Gasby Brown: Extremely blessed by that and continued on the journey, and now I have about 400 of my pieces owned by people across the country in the Caribbean in Canada.

Gasby Brown: And it’s just been a journey of exhibitions that I would never have thought people commissioning me to do pieces, who would in my wildest dreams would never have thought, something like that could happen.

Gasby Brown: So the god journey.

David Horsager: Well, they are beautiful and our team just loves that we’ve gone back and forth with this one between my wife wanting it at home.

David Horsager: And the team wanting it here at the offices and right now it’s here again because I use it to talk about some things that I just I just love it, so thank you for this piece, and we look forward to more.

Gasby Brown: Well, thank you for enjoying it, because without people like you enjoying it, I would just be creating stuff in a vacuum Thank you yeah well.

David Horsager: let’s jump to D and I it’s a big topic dei and justice, some say and belonging these days, but diversity equity inclusion.

David Horsager: You know, we talked about trust and it’s you can’t.

David Horsager: It seems like you can’t have the best kind at least there was that there was a study on diversity.

David Horsager: harbor massive Harvard Putnam study that showed kind of diversity that diversity of many kinds on its own tends to pit people against each other.

David Horsager: Unless you increase trust so we’re all about how do we increase trust to get the best of that we know that you know we know there is greatness in diversity equity inclusion longing justice.

David Horsager: So how do we increase trust, so that we enjoy the best of this beautiful array of diversity but i’d like to start, do you how do you how do you tackle the and I in a way, or how can we as leaders, maybe even think differently about it so that we increase trust and get the best of diversity.

Gasby Brown: boy that’s a great question David and the onus is really more on the learning than the learned in this case in my mind, and so it really comes down to, and I will deal with the racial part of it, because there’s so many moving parts to de ti and justice.

Gasby Brown: There needs to be racial literacy.

Gasby Brown: A curiosity that to learn and openness to learn and to be a lifelong learner about the various historical issues that have led us to where we are now with regard to racial equity.

Gasby Brown: There needs to also be in my mind that kind of deal with three r’s our agencies and what have you but another are would be racial humility.

Gasby Brown: There are some people who feel that they have read a few books and they have watched a couple of movies and documentaries and now they know all they need to know and they may be.

Gasby Brown: attended a couple of ddi trainings and they know they feel that they know all there is to know.

Gasby Brown: About racial reckoning and what’s going on, but that is the wrong attitude the attitude has to be humility, where you putting yourself in the position.

Gasby Brown: To always be open to learning new things, and more, and then the ratio sustainability that you’re in this for the long haul, this is not just a flash point in history, but this is an opportunity to make change and it starts with each of us.

David Horsager: Whereas some places, you see people.

David Horsager: doing these things well like you know.

David Horsager: Furthering racial equity in a where’s it working is there places, you can shine that are that are examples for leaders to look at and say Okay, I never thought of that, I think I could.

David Horsager: Not just could I learned something here, but this would this gives me something tangible, we could start to do in our environment.

Gasby Brown: I think the nba has done a great job in this regard and worthy of studying them bottle of how they’re dealing with justice and equity and inclusion it’s so interesting because everybody’s tall there.

Gasby Brown: In the nba and one of the big optics that we use a lot would be everybody looking over a fence at different heights.

Gasby Brown: And not everybody can see over the fence because of their height and that’s where the justice diversity equity and inclusion comes in.

Gasby Brown: Because the more you adjust the height, the more everyone is in the position to see but true equity is when you remove the fence, all together, and everybody can see where they are, and I think that’s where we talk about that belonging part that you mentioned.

David Horsager: How are they doing that how’s the nba I know i’ve met the CEO of the nba and certainly many of the mana i’m on hype when expert in residence with the amazing CEO of the of the mavericks and she is a an amazing you know, a positive force in this work, but what do you see them doing.

Gasby Brown: Well, I see them utilizing first of all their stadiums with the health disparities during the pandemic.

Gasby Brown: And the stadium’s we’re not being used to any way what foresight in what thought it would be great insight I think they utilized.

Gasby Brown: and being able to say we’re going to take these stadiums and we’re going to try and close the disparity, the health disparity.

Gasby Brown: Amongst minorities with who were getting vaccinated or tested or all of the things that were part of that these are the real things it’s not in the thinking about it it’s in the doing.

Gasby Brown: So when I saw them.

Gasby Brown: pivot along those lines that would be something that I would consider an example and i’d love to hear from you, David about the qualities that you’ve seen in those people that probably helped to lead them to a point where they would think this way.


David Horsager: I think the number one you said curiosity here, I think, was the onus is on the learner either any way you look at it, but I, the great leaders i’ve seen do this and almost anything, well, I have had a humility, I would say humility.

David Horsager: of understanding we don’t know it all a humility of that leads to you know I guess you said it yeah number two was ratio humility yeah it was that exactly I thought you’d said them before so.

David Horsager: it’s just but it’s just plain humility and that leads to racial humility and leads to kind of gender humility.

David Horsager: You know there’s but the thing that i’ve seen work is a start with humility and that if I was going to take one one item um I think the journey yeah.

Gasby Brown: I didn’t mean to cut you off of that it just brought a thought up about i’ve seen so many CEOs and, as I have navigated around and my professional career.

Gasby Brown: And I see the ones who are most effective are those who walk in the room and began to want to meet other people.

Gasby Brown: not the ones who want everybody to flock to them and and pander to them, if you will, because they have power and authority.

Gasby Brown: But the ones that just walk up to people and say hi i’m Jane doe or i’m john doe and.

Gasby Brown: In asked their name and then be interested in other people I find being interested in other people being very important that’s an aside, but.

Gasby Brown: It was just a thought that came to my head that I found as a common thread that CEOs who are most effective have that sense of humility and have the confidence that they can walk in the room and get to know people rather than being the Center of attention.

David Horsager: it’s almost that I think I like what you said it’s almost it’s a healthy confidence that you don’t need like you know these these needy.

David Horsager: You know if you’re a CEO that needs the limelight, or you need this or you are, you need to be right, I just talked to a very good friend of mine phil sterling brilliant gentleman, but he said I no longer.

David Horsager: He said he his whole life as it is now like in these older years, like, I want to be curious about how to solve the right problems.

David Horsager: I no longer want to be right or something like that his his quote was much better and he’s so wise, but I think you know this, this idea of curiosity about others care for others.

Interest in others.

David Horsager: yeah I think all that goes together there’s a whole lot more, we could get say about this, are there are there are structural things.

David Horsager: That you’ve seen that are working, or you would recommend I think you know people i’m on some boards where it’s there’s there’s there’s um you know there’s metrics we are, we are.

David Horsager: here’s one idea that.

David Horsager: In one company they change the equity equation by.

David Horsager: saying you can hire the best person for any job.

David Horsager: Who you feel like is best for that job but.

David Horsager: they’re there has to be a top three and one of those three has to be a person of color and and it it actually interestingly enough, this what some I could see and I could.

David Horsager: See white folks possibly saying well that isn’t you know that, why do you need to do that, or you know this, I just you can see certain things being said and yet.

David Horsager: That just put certain people in the room, it for certain people to be in the room that actually from that group of three, then the number that were hired.

David Horsager: As best of many more of color and the health of the company and the output of the company went up so they they they they found a way to.

David Horsager: get the right people in the room, without without saying you know you have to hire 50% of this or that and I think it was one simple idea I guess i’m just asking your perspective on that and are there other ideas that maybe we should be thinking about that can help.

David Horsager: You know.

David Horsager: start to solve this problem in our own spaces.

Gasby Brown: Well, a couple things, there is a name for that procedure and it’s called the Rooney rule.

Gasby Brown: Where the three our finalists are captured one of the things I I really bristle when someone says we’re trying to find it when you’re talking about those three we’re trying to find qualified.

Gasby Brown: black people who are minorities well they wouldn’t be qualified they they have to be qualified to be one of the three So what are you talking about.

Gasby Brown: So, eliminating that kind of lexicon is very important, I think it’s also very crucial.

Gasby Brown: For the diversity equity and inclusion person to report directly to the CEO and President, that this is not someone down the line that reports to the HR person, but has the importance of being on the Cabinet, if you will.

Gasby Brown: And then also it’s very important, especially for corporations for that executive committee to be able to receive the front line training and the hard nosed training.

Gasby Brown: of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice, and therefore it trickles down from the top, to start with the employees at a ground level that is not the place to start the entry level has to be at the top and i’d also encourage white CEOs to seek training from experienced white.

Gasby Brown: People who have walked in their shoes understand some of their discomfort and challenges, and it can be talked about in a very frank manner.

Gasby Brown: So those would be a few of the things that I would recommend right off the BAT.

David Horsager: yeah those are good ones very good.

David Horsager: Well let’s let’s jump into you again for a moment.

David Horsager: What are you learning now, what are you you’re a continual learner, what do you what are you thinking about these days that’s hitting you and and your.

David Horsager: You know a lot of people, you know I learned this on pockets lot of people ask well, what did you learn back then from that thing, and I am that’s interesting I don’t mind that but I kind of want to hear what you’re learning right now.

Gasby Brown: Well i’ve read a little bit of Adam grants book about think again and I am trying to do that how wrong or how right can I be.

Gasby Brown: and challenging that so that I am not this myopic person that it has to be my way and i’ve gone that journey and I don’t want to be in that space so that’s what i’m learning about me and how I want to be as a person.

Gasby Brown: That i’m reading a couple of books that i’m learning about.

Gasby Brown: People cultures and relating to others i’m reading.

Gasby Brown: Just as I am the autobiography of four for cicely Tyson I just relate to so much of what she has written about and she’s been.

Gasby Brown: She was such a woman of faith which I didn’t know how deep lead her faith is rooted and just her various experiences that are just really phenomenal that led her to be able to do this and release the book at nine and six years old and look amazing I want to be amazing looking for.

Gasby Brown: And then i’m reading.

Gasby Brown: A book now by Jim amanda DJ it’s called half of the yellow sun and it’s about the BF and war, and what led to it in it’s given me great insight into the Nigerian culture.

Gasby Brown: So learning about others, has been very, very important out so read a book recently about the to peak of school.

Gasby Brown: It that’s the name of the book, which is really, really great and learning about the thinking of Midwest people and particularly white males in the Midwest because it’s written by a guy who’s coming from his perspective so.

Gasby Brown: I think just my curiosity has even heightened i’ve always had a curious curiosity about others not being nosy but just being curious and and I think it’s been heightened David.


David Horsager: What.

David Horsager: what’s what’s motivating you these days you keep doing all this great work both in nonprofits and we get a serve together and a university board as well, but what kind of keeps you going, and we in your work.

Gasby Brown: I have found my purpose.

Gasby Brown: hmm.

David Horsager: And my find it.

Gasby Brown: You know I wish I could tell you.

Gasby Brown: What I did, I think, maybe it.

Gasby Brown: contributed to it, because that there was a lot of time to think.

Gasby Brown: And introspect.

Gasby Brown: But right the here in this moment I am so clear that my purpose is to serve and to utilize my experiences and that i’ve been blessed with good and bad.

Gasby Brown: With others, so that there may be a benefit, and that includes the artist well is there is purpose there to express and share with others, so.

Gasby Brown: I have, I had the purpose.

Gasby Brown: in life.

Gasby Brown: love it.

David Horsager: Speaking of motivation and I don’t always ask this one, but you know.

David Horsager: If you’re trying to motivate someone else to do something let’s take a board or a leader or a someone else needs to change that you’re dealing with.

David Horsager: And many people think well motivation is just intrinsic so whatever you want to call it, if you want to inspire them to do something, but you need to move someone to think differently or do something else, how do you motivate them.

Gasby Brown: First, by finding out where they are, because I believe we have to meet people where they are, so to come with a formulaic approach oh i’m going to teach you this, and this is what you need to know.

Gasby Brown: In my mind, is not the most effective approach, the most effective approach is to find out where people.

Gasby Brown: are so, for example on a board that probably has an uneven pattern of understanding of a certain topic.

Gasby Brown: First of all, do a little survey of how they feel about certain things and to get that in its aggregate and to have small group discussions.

Gasby Brown: so that you can have an understanding and they can have an understanding of each other put things candidly on the table.

Gasby Brown: about it and discuss that in a transparent manner, moving from a base of knowledge about your audience is always very, very important instead of coming in with your own agenda that is just one way.

David Horsager: Building on that that would certainly be a huge part of it, thank you for that, how would you go into a board let’s take a new board and build trust.

David Horsager: How would you you build it, but how would you build it amongst each other.

Gasby Brown: Well, through small group interaction, first of all, you know facilitate a lot of board retreats and.

Gasby Brown: doing the kinds of things that help people to get to know one another.

Gasby Brown: I asked them about what what is something on your resume that no one else know that you don’t put on your resume, in other words, what is something about you that you don’t put on your resume.

Gasby Brown: And people come up with some of the most fascinating answers that then connect it’s almost like the thing Francis of Assisi oh I didn’t know you felt that way, we have something in common and that getting to know you and getting to know others is a very important part of trust.

Gasby Brown: The fact that there is for people to be on a board if it’s operated in the right way that you know you’re all there because you’re offering something good.

Gasby Brown: But get to know the people that you are navigating with on a deeper level is, I think, very important and that helps to build the trust.

Gasby Brown: to know that you think i’m Okay, because I climb hills and I do mountain climbing because you do that too, and I just went on a I didn’t I don’t do this, but for a person to say.

Gasby Brown: yeah I just went on a 26 mile hike and the person is you know I did the same thing to me years ago and begin to have that kind of interaction and and speaking in a trustful way.

Gasby Brown: I think about there’s a US trust which Bank of America and literally families school of the lamp therapy longitudinal study that’s done every two years for high net worth individual.

Gasby Brown: And one of the things that they have indicated in this study is that they trust nonprofits to do the work that they cannot do themselves individually.

Gasby Brown: isn’t that a wonderful entry point that speaks to relationship, and I think the bottom line of all that I just said with long winded way of saying it relationship.

Gasby Brown: is so important, when building trust.

David Horsager: Everything of value is built interest we do a process that I am proud of and it’s had significant results in boards and organizations, but it’s something we call the trust shield and it just it it basically.

David Horsager: is a process that helps people build connection and kind of see some of the things you talked about like Oh, you know that oh i’ve had people with totally diverse views a board.

David Horsager: That we’re just not working together on one they felt safe enough to say well i’m a i’m a i’m a Muslim i’m a Christian Lima, this one that at the end of it, they all see each other’s human and they work together in a whole new way it was a it’s a powerful powerful piece and.

Gasby Brown: Yes, indeed.

Gasby Brown: And in fact my book, as you mentioned before, business of a spiritual matter was written for that into relationship between the abrahamic faiths and so it’s very much tied to what we have in common.

David Horsager: it’s a great book to give people a quick overview of of what they would get out of this is business as a spiritual matter and tell tell just give a quick overview as.

Gasby Brown: Well it’s going to tell you about strategic planning from A to Z.

Gasby Brown: And it will give leaders of all of the foundations, as of a year ago that give to various nonprofit organizations it’s going to test leaders on a.

Gasby Brown: Few are chosen, many are called but few are chosen, are you chosen to be a leader and to really stretch yourself to think about what a chosen leader means.

Gasby Brown: How to build a board.

Gasby Brown: there’s an author that I like his name is author Arthur France, where he’s passed away now he wrote a book called mad on this board you don’t.

Gasby Brown: And the dysfunctions of boards it’s something that i’m dealing with all the time clients are asking me to weigh in.

Gasby Brown: And so, in this book, it gives all the right tools to build a board to deal in and in self self evaluate.

Gasby Brown: How to evaluate board members, how to retain board member members and just from A to Z what it’s going to take how to conduct the capital campaign there’s a chapter in the book for Christian schools in particular that says the bake sale will never be enough.

Gasby Brown: conduct an annual giving campaign, all of these kinds of things that sustain a nonprofit with the right tools is part of the business of a spiritual matter.

David Horsager: So what about you you’ve written several books you’ve are you you’re painting is touching lives your leadership, work and nonprofit we’re just touching lives what’s a what’s a hope for the future, for you, maybe it’s bucket list, maybe it’s just a what the hope hope for the future.

Gasby Brown: Well, I hope that we will have come together closer as human beings across the board my heart is so heavy with the division that.

Gasby Brown: I see and the meanness and the evilness that has surfaced itself, and so my hope is when I know people like you, David and so many others, not just white people, but people every ethnicity, who are so interested and eager to make things better that’s my hope.

David Horsager: You have one tip on how we might start.

Gasby Brown: Well, I have several three tips if you’ll Allow me one is awareness what really took place this gets back to the racial literacy, the other one is relationship.

Gasby Brown: When a a head of an organization, who is White says we’re going to have become more diverse, I want to know what their wheelhouse of relationships.

Gasby Brown: But does that look like, do you live in an integrated Community do you have friends that are of different ethnicities, do you make it a point to have vendors, who are diverse do you make it a point to make sure that if it’s appropriate any algorithms within your company.

Gasby Brown: are tested and metrics that tested by diversity equity and inclusion, but I do want to know about that person’s.

Gasby Brown: Life that lifestyle, how they navigate when they are not in the workplace, with people who are others if you, if you will, and then the other thing is commitment, are you really committed to looking at.

Gasby Brown: And all of us unconscious dominance and stereotyping and and the kinds of things that we have somehow in some cases being been.

Gasby Brown: trained to think about can we train ourselves and be committed to do something different, and so, those are the three things aware, so those pillars, I think we can build upon awareness relationships.

Gasby Brown: and commitment.

David Horsager: yeah yep we’re gonna build trust, we need to be thinking about them for sure.

David Horsager: Yes, there is a whole lot here in a very short time i’ve got one more question for you, because it is the trusted leader show, but before we get into that where can people find out more about em ghazni Brown.

Gasby Brown: Oh yes, well, there are a couple of places please go to www dot the gadsby group COM, you can learn all about what we do in the nonprofit space, then philanthropy and then my art is w w w.no permission needed.com.

David Horsager: And we’ll put all both of those spelled out links directly there in the show notes, but.

Gasby Brown: Yes, you know you notice, I said w w.


Gasby Brown: That comes from my broadcast training and you know, I was a reporter for fox television one time, and also for BT so it was so important to.

David Horsager: articulate you’re very good at articulating.

David Horsager: Well, if it’s the last question.

David Horsager: it’s a trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Gasby Brown: I had the great pleasure of working with and under.

Gasby Brown: The President and CEO of the national urban league who price.

Gasby Brown: Who in my mind was the epitome of a great leader.

Gasby Brown: Here was a man who had come from being a New York Times editorial writer, and also a Vice President at the Rockefeller foundation.

Gasby Brown: And was tapped to be the President and CEO of the national urban League and many people didn’t they saw that background, but they didn’t know his passion for equity.

Gasby Brown: That he had been involved in all of his life and he mentored me and encouraged me, and I think he is most responsible, other than my parents for my growth and development as a professional he held on to his integrity and he was just.

Gasby Brown: He was a consensus builder and he also was a very kind person.

David Horsager: Fantastic we could talk for hours.

David Horsager: i’m glad I get to speak to you again before long, but thank you so much for being on the show Thank you Gasby and thank you all for listening, this has been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

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