Ep. 80: Bobby Herrera on 3 Areas of Culture Organizations Overlook

In this special episode, we feature one of the amazing speakers we had at the 2022 Trusted Leader Summit. In this clip from the mainstage, David sits down for a conversation with Bobby Herrera, Co-Founder and CEO of Populus Group, to discuss how to build a culture of trust and the three areas of culture organizations overlook.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Bobby’s Bio:
Bobby believes that everyone deserves an opportunity to succeed and is an unwavering champion for the underdog. He’s cofounder and CEO of Populus Group—one of the fastest-growing HR services companies in the United States with annual revenue of $500 million and many Fortune 100 customers. As one of thirteen children in a migrant family he learned the value of hard work, rising early and putting in long hours in the fields. After high school, boot camp became his ticket of opportunity. He serves on national community organization boards and is a regular speaker at corporations and service groups. He is a proud Army veteran. Bobby is most proud of his family—his wife Roslyn and their three children Santino, Griffith, and Sofia live in Portland, Oregon.

Bobby’s Links:
Website: https://bobby-herrera.com/
Populus Group: https://www.populusgroup.com/
“The Gift Of Struggle” by Bobby Herrera: https://amzn.to/3irNyIO
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobby-herrera-5781821/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/BobbyHerreraPG
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bobbyherrera.pg/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bobbyherrerapg/

Key Quotes:
1. “Culture is a story that you’re narrating.”
2. “Stories connect us. They inspire us. They give us meaning.”
3. “We don’t like surprises, unless they’re good surprises.”
4. “Your culture, if you’re doing it right, it should repel some people.”
5. “You should not try to build a culture that is a one size fits all for everybody.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
2023 Trusted Leader Summit: http://trustedleadersummit.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

Kent Svenson:
Welcome to the trusted leader show. I’m Kent Svenson producer of the trusted leader show. And for this week’s episode, we wanted to feature one of the amazing speakers we had at the 2022 trusted leader summit in this clip from the main stage, David sits down for a conversation with Bobby Herrera co-founder and CEO of populus group, where they discuss how to build a culture of trust and the three areas, organizations unintentionally overlook when building their culture. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show

David Horsager:
We met. You can, I don’t, I I remember, and I’ve been able to speak there as different things, but I, I wanna just tell you my, my view. I get, uh, the privilege of working with, um, CEOs, senior leaders coming had some sports teams and governments and whatever. And there are very few on one hand that I can just think of that really get and drive a high trust culture. And he was this way before we did anything with him. He, he, um, what they’ve done at populous group is an amazing story. It aligns with what we do. I’m privileged have done some things, but they, they, they, um, they get this work. So I wanna tell you just a, a brief bit he’s the co-founder of and CEO populous group. He’s one, one of the fastest growing HR services companies in the United States, annual revenue now over 600 billion and many fortune 100 companies. In fact, where we met, I think I was speaking at a fortune one, uh, hundred deal. Uh, he’s a proud bar army veteran author of the bestselling leadership book. The gift of struggle. He serves our national community organization, board, serving kids and veterans passionate storyteller. He’s an amazing family, man. Please help me welcome Mr. Bobby Herrera.

David Horsager:
So Bobby, uh, we’ve become friends and I’ve gotten to see some of what you’re doing, but this is, this is unique. Tell, tell us a little bit about this, uh, this video, what we just saw and then we’ll go from there.

Bobby Herrera:
Well, obviously love the mountains. Um, so I filmed this documentary style. This was a trailer, uh, in 2020, I took my two boys. Uh, it’s an annual trip that I hand select six climbers, six or seven climbers in my community. I call my company a community, uh, and I hand select six from across the country. And I take them on this annual Trek from where you all saw at start up to camp mu the highest point you can go before the actual technical summit. It’s my favorite mountain. It’s part of a bigger mountain climbing theme that I have embedded into my whole culture. Uh, I’ve tied everything into that theme from the language to the everybody

David Horsager:
Geter. When they join

Bobby Herrera:
First day, day one, everybody gets one of these common

David Horsager:
Language in a company

Bobby Herrera:
Teer on day one. We give them this, uh, to symbolize it. They’re, uh, part of something bigger than themselves. They’re for one another. And so we expect them to take it to meetings, uh, any event that they go to this carer used to be with ’em, uh, and it connects to the bigger story. And, uh, I couldn’t take anybody that year. So instead I filmed it and I took the whole community and, uh, this just, they packed with lessons and it’s a lot of fun.

David Horsager:
I, um, you, we I’ve read the book. Great, powerful, inspiring book, but you tell a story kind of, that was an epiphany. I just wanna just touch on that kinda where it’s some of where this started, some of how you think about running a company started, uh, can you just touch on the school bus?

Bobby Herrera:
Yeah, so, um, uh, when I was 17, uh, my brother ed and I, we were on a return trip home from a basketball game and we were excited. It was a big win and along the way, the team stops for dinner and everybody unloads off the bus except for me and my brother ed. Well, at that point, my family’s story, I’m one of 13 kids. I’m number 11. And, uh, I still eat with my elbows on the table and, uh, we were very accustomed to staying back on that bus. And as a team unloaded this gentleman steps on board, the bus and my brother and I were sitting towards the back and he’s walking towards us and he RAs me a little bit, cuz it outskirt me that night. And then he said something to me that I I’ll always remember. He said, Bobby, it would make me very happy.

Bobby Herrera:
If you would allow me to buy you boys dinner, nobody else has to know. All you have to do to thank me is do the same thing for another great kid, just like you in the future. And I’ll never, ever forget how I felt in that moment. I had this wave attitude come over me that it’s still hard for me to explain. And I remember stepping off the bus that evening and I had no idea what I was gonna do with my life. You know, I had a desire to raise my hand and join the military, which I did a year later. But outside of that, all I wanted was for my future to look different from my past and struggled being the only theme in my story. And uh, but even though I had no idea what I was gonna do after that moment on UI, like I’d somehow some way, figure out a way to create something that would allow me to pay forward. That kind act to other kids who were born on the wrong side of the opportunity by just like me. And that moment just changed how I viewed everything. You know, Gucci said yesterday that a dream start in the heart that hit me right in the heart. And uh, it stuck.

David Horsager:
Thank you. So,

Bobby Herrera:

David Horsager:
I’ve heard that a lot of times and I’ve still feel it. I remember growing up in one of the poorest counties in Minnesota. Yeah. We had enough food. We grew our own food. Right. And we worked, you know, it had some things that way, but I was thinking of even Lisa and I starting out in a whole lot of different things. But, um, one thing that I’ve been in most impressed by when I think of seeing how you run the company, um, the, the, the whole, the culture, the names, I think there’s some things we can take away. Of course we love it when people drive a culture of the eight pillars, but there’s other things people do. Like you’ve done to really build alignment and connection and building a common language and building an identity. And somebody saying, I, I know I can state the three that I remember from what your work in the book, but you’ve got these three key areas. Let me just let you start out. Let’s start with the first one. You talk about building identity. Mm-hmm what have you done at populous group? What, what do you do there to build an identity?

Bobby Herrera:
Well, you know, what’s interesting about that story is although that story became the invisible force, that drives me, uh, it was all also, it’s also my biggest leadership mistake because I of 10 years, I started my, my, my company in 2002. And I didn’t tell that story until 2012. And yes, I had been, uh, I was a, you know, intense entrepreneur, just trying to make things happen. And I had the, this desire to bring that story to life so I could do what I wanna do with it, but nobody knew. And once I told that story and I I’ll often tell people that that was the beginning of transforming my company into a community, because after I told that story, my company then had a clarity that I’d never given ’em before on the identity that I wanted for the organization, what the real purpose and the mission of it was. And at up to that point, I hadn’t done that. So, you know, without that clarity and you’re, you can’t bring to life what you want for, of the organization, what you want to do with that story that you’re building, cuz in the end, that’s what culture really is. Culture is a story that you’re narrating and everything you, you do and connect to it are symbols and traditions and components of the story that you have to bring to life. And as a leader, you connect that identity together.

David Horsager:
So you start with this identity. You’re you’re number two is you have to have a guide behavior. Mm-hmm maybe even start with what let’s jump here. I’ll jump around a little bit. Sure. Because I know, tell us a little bit more about the symbols. like, what are some of the symbols? What’s the, what’s it like you, like, I’ve done work for Vanguard and they’re all, um, you know, the ship theme and the, you know, that it’s all, um, crew members and that kind of thing. And you have this, not that we all have to come up, you don’t have a lot to come up with these kind of things, but there certain language mm-hmm uh, that can bring people together, can unify around something. If it’s authentic. Tell us a little bit more about some of, some of the language.

Bobby Herrera:
Yeah, well, you know, the, this annual trip that they, everyone just saw a clip to, like, that’s one of my favorite traditions, but I have other traditions throughout the year that compliment the overall climbing theme. So, you know, for example, my version, every September, I give the Sherpa and it’s my version of the Heisman. And I give it to one deserving climber a year that best lived our purpose and our values. And so I will do symbolic things like that, like the carabiner. And we tell them on day one, like you were selected to make our story better. And we then guide ’em that second part guiding behavior. We show them exactly what that means.

David Horsager:
So tell me what what’s, what’s a one expectation. I jumped on the team. I’m a climber now. Yeah. How how’s it different than working at wherever I’m on the populous group team? Mm-hmm , what’s the behavior you expect?

Bobby Herrera:
Well, the three principles that we, that we share with ’em from day one is we expect you to give more than you take. We expect you from the heart and we expect you to go off the beaten path. And we, for the first week, when someone joins our community, they do not do a single job task oriented activity. Their first week is embedded in engulfed into our culture. And we call that our uncommon welcome. And so we, we will give them a very in-depth intentional culture quiz, where they’re literally calling climbers all across the country, learning stories about each other, talking about those different principles. And we have story after story that bring those to life. You know, and Allison shared that, you know, yesterday, like stories, NTA, they inspire us, they give us meaning. And so that whole first week they’re embedded into it. And so we invest up front and given the context that they need. And on the second week when they start, they have so much context around why we do what we do and how we do what we do that their ramp up time to productivity is, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s so quick because we don’t have to then spend time doing it on the fly and they don’t have to guess. Yeah.

David Horsager:
So in this, I think this is interesting. I’m gonna repeat it because I think it’s replicable in your space for culture. So talks about this, this culture ambition, number one, building an identity there’s specific bullet points to that. But if you have not built a very clear, specific identity, it’s gonna be really hard to win it culture. And we talked a lot. That’s a lot of clarity mm-hmm

Bobby Herrera:

David Horsager:
Right, right. Number two is you have to then take it to things that guide behavior. Uh, this is what caribou did with the whole Bama thing. Bama it’s Memor. Oh, we gotta learn all this other stuff we did. Okay. Now, but every 17 year old barista knows. Oh yeah. Be excellent. Not average. Oh. Act with urgency. Okay. I should give ’em the copy quickly. They like it. Okay. Make a connection. Oh yeah. I try to do that. Oh, I anticipate needs. I try to look for, they might wanna nap in with it. They want water with, they they’ve created this, they’ve taken this and they’ve made, uh, this into behaviors, right. Not just because integrity. Isn’t really behavior on its almost it it’s. It’s great. But what, what does that look like? Right. Oh, what this means here and then get us a little more on speaking. A common language. Number three is speaking a common language.

Bobby Herrera:
So speaking of common language should help bring to life the identity and the guiding behavior. Right? So I introduced a climbing theme one because of my passion for the mountains and mountaineering. However, um, the, the word employee just never like, it doesn’t mean anything to me. And so I started reflecting on some of my past journey and you know, I still remember this day, you know what it meant to be a soldier in the military. I still remember. I, I worked for a summer at Disney and there they call their employees, cast members. And I still know exactly what it meant to be a cast member. And so when someone joins our community, I want them to be able to, to understand the essence of what it means to be a climber. And then we give ’em a climber number. So they know exactly where they joined on our climb and we do all our connection points annually around the summit and EV uh, that everything interconnects, you know, we, our one-on-ones are called grips. Uh, and we’ll often say, Hey, how’s your grip. A fundamental of climbing is having a great grip. And so I’ve just interconnected it’s it was just my corny way of helping make it something that’s simple and palatable for people to remember. And you know, it, they, everyone picks up on it very quickly and it creates safety.

David Horsager:
Think about it. If anybody has one que I’m gonna I’m I might take one question here if somebody has a burning one or two. Um, but I think a question I have at least, and I, we talked early in the pandemic Uhhuh and, um, well we talked after that too, but yes, uh, I was saying, and I saw some things challenges in the pandemic for you two. Right. But, uh, for all of us, but you were doing some things and I asked you what what’s working and what are some of the things, something that work

Bobby Herrera:
Yeah. You and I talked about, you know, managing the VUCA. Yep. Um, you know, uh, VUCA is a term that’s, you know, for those of us that have served that it’s an acronym for, you know, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And one of the things that I learned in the military was when there’s a lot of VUCA, when there’s a lot of chaos, our responsibility as a leader is to slow the game down for everybody. And in simple application terms, all I did throughout the pandemic and all I continue to do is slow the game down to, uh, to edit everything that is non-essential out of everyone’s life and keep it just on the things that we can control and then simplify all the routines that follow, you know, the consistency pillar, you know, uh, I made sure everyone knew when they were gonna hear from me how they were gonna hear from me, how often they were gonna hear from me. And I just embedded all these routines and I’ve just been tailoring the system all along. Like we don’t like surprises unless they’re good surprises. So, uh, that’s really what managing the V is about is editing everything out with the exception of the most essential things that you can control slowing the game down and giving people predictability on the communication.

David Horsager:
I remember one of the things you said, I’m gonna say really quick. So we’re, we were talking about, uh, the VUCA and talking about what you did wherever. Anyway, anyway, that’s at the point, um, sorry. Mm-hmm um, the, but the bottom line is we, I, we noticed something it’s like a lot of people in, in chaos, they, uh, they start focused on everything they cannot control. Yeah. And we came down to the, the question of, okay, okay. We can do all these things, but what can control? What, what can I control? And, and that, that turns out there’s a lot more we can control than we ever thought. Right. See what happened in many when they actually pause, thought about what they could control mm-hmm um, anything else in the culture or

Bobby Herrera:
Pandemic? Yeah. You know, and I think from a culture perspective, when everybody went virtual, like I had to zoom out and I had to revisit every team that we did, like, uh, for example, like I couldn’t take anyone to this annual hike. So I then started revisiting all the routines and all the symbols that we do. And just simply started asking myself, okay, what tweaks do I need to make? How am I gonna do it differently to bring to life the essence? So for example, in 2020, I have taken six people. I filmed a documentary style and I took the whole community. Right. And so, uh, there, my observation has been, yeah, it’s not gonna work out the way that you want it to the way that it has been, but then if you focus on, okay, well, what can I do? What’s the best I can do and how can I tweak it to make the same type of impact act that I wanna make? Because my responsibility to advance the culture is to keep the narrative of the story going mm-hmm . And if I don’t find, if I don’t do those things repeatedly over and over and over again, the culture’s gonna decline.

David Horsager:
That’s the work of it. Anybody have a key question on culture for Mr. Herra culture or, um, you have to see their company, what they do, anybody. Yes. Dr. I

Bobby Herrera:
That don’t. How do you deal with get the culture? Uh, that’s a great question. Question.

David Horsager:
And repeat, you wanna repeat

Bobby Herrera:
It? Yeah. So the question was, how do I deal with the naysayers, right? The people that either, for some reason or another, just don’t connect with it. Right. Um, so I, I mentioned this to someone earlier today, right? I believe three areas that organizations unintentionally overlook, uh, when it comes to building culture is, uh, they in their hiring, in their onboarding and in their, if instead they focused on selection, welcoming and onboarding and then, uh, development. Right? So the question there is, okay, well, that’s, those are just different words, but actually they’re not right. So the selection piece, so to, I’m gonna get to the heart of your question here in a second. What have happens before then is selection versus hiring. There’s a real simple difference. There a hiring is, is off the front of the resume. We symbolically anytime that we sit across a table for someone to see if they’re gonna be a good fit for our community, we flip over the resume and we don’t ask, ’em a single question about their resume until the third interview.

Bobby Herrera:
I wanna know their life story. I wanna know what they believe. I wanna know what makes ’em tick. I wanna know what gives ’em energy. I wanna know who they are. I wanna know all about their identity. And so they go through that selection process, which is four. They meet with four different people. And the first two are all about the back, the resume. The second, the second, the last two are on the front. So we align that competency and that character. And then on the welcome that culture quiz that I mentioned, right? Most organizations, they will invite someone into their company. And after the first day after they fill out all the, uh, forms and so forth, they sit ’em right now next to somebody and they start job shadowing. And they have no idea about the purpose of the organization. They have no idea about the, the culture code, the values, the behavior models, and so forth. We take that off the table. And so in that first week, like we try to actually scare them like your culture, if you’re doing it right, it should repel some people. And that’s a good thing. Like you should not try to build a culture that is a one size fits all for everybody.

Bobby Herrera:
So we actually try to invite them to make themselves available to the marketplace after that first week. And after that, if they still aren’t, uh, aligning to our principles, we’ll remind them, we’ll correct them. But we have a saying, we call it, choose a trend. When we have to address a colds, uh, value more than twice it’s time for us to, uh, uh, invite more joy into their life and make them available to the marketplace. That’s a nicer way to say. Yes.

David Horsager:
I’m um, just so grateful to know you and I’ve learned I’ve gotten better because of being around you. And I’m grateful for that. And you’re an example to many,

Kent Svenson:
That’s it for this week’s episode, be sure to check out trusted leader, show.com for all the links and information on anything mentioned in today’s episode. And if you haven’t already, we would greatly appreciate a review on apple podcasts. This is a great way to help support the show and to help other people to discover it. But that’s it for this week’s episode. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 79: Chuck Runyon on Why Great Teams Run On Trust

In this episode, David sits down with Chuck Runyon, CEO and Co-founder of Self Esteem Brands, to discuss why great teams run on trust.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Chuck’s Bio:
As the CEO and Co-founder of Self Esteem Brands—parent company to Anytime Fitness, Waxing the City, The Bar Method, Basecamp Fitness, and Stronger U—Chuck Runyon leads the largest franchise fitness operating company in the world with a growing global portfolio of brands that provides fitness, nutrition and wellness services that help millions of people worldwide improve their health and wellbeing.

Runyon revolutionized the fitness industry in 2002, when he and David Mortensen co-founded Anytime Fitness. Today, with 5,000 franchise locations on all seven continents—more than half outside the U.S. in more than 30 countries—Anytime Fitness is the #1 fitness franchise in the world. Chuck and Dave were named the “2020 Entrepreneurs of the Year” by the International Franchise Association (IFA).

Chuck is also a vocal advocate and lobbyist for fitness industry, which faced permanent closure rates in 2020 five times higher than the restaurant industry. He ensured the brands were leading voices through IHRSA, Fitness Industry Council of Canada, Community Gyms Coalition and more for standard health club safety and sanitation protocols as well as state, provincial and federal stimulus relief for owners.

Central to Chuck’s leadership philosophy is the concept of ROEI – the return on emotional investment. He’s the co-author of Love Work: Inspire a high-performing work culture at the center of People, Purpose, Profits and Play®. He’s chair of the Runyon Family Foundation, as well as a member of the HeartFirst Charitable Foundation and the Hill Murray Foundation Board.

Chuck’s Links:
Website: https://www.sebrands.com/
“Love Work” by Chuck Runyon, Dave Mortensen, and Marc Conklin: https://amzn.to/3kcBo6A
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chuckrunyon/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/chuckrunyon?lang=en
Twitter (SEBrands): https://twitter.com/sebrands
Instagram (Anytime Fitness): https://www.instagram.com/anytimefitness/?hl=en
Twitter (Anytime Fitness): https://twitter.com/AnytimeFitness?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckrunyon
LinkedIn (SEBrands): https://www.linkedin.com/company/self-esteem-brands
LinkedIn (Anytime Fitness): https://www.linkedin.com/company/anytime-fitness

Key Quotes
1. “I love this great resignation, this opportunity where employees have more leverage than ever before.”
2. “We should be emotionally invested in the work that we do.”
3. “The best culture wins.”
4. “We really look at this as a partnership.”
5. “We try to be a company of leaders.”
6. “Franchisee feedback is a hallmark of successful franchise systems.”
7. “Our entire job is about listening and then making those adaptations to make sure the brand is thriving.”
8. “It always travels back to purpose.”
9. “Fitness is found in a health club. Health is found everywhere else.”
10. “We’re trying to democratize pro and health coaching.”
11. “Don’t live to work. Work to live.”
12. “Health is a power source. It’s either power giving source or power draining source.”
13. “Great teams run on trust.”
14. “Without trust you cannot have high performance.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Love Work” by Chuck Runyon, Dave Mortensen, and Marc Conklin: https://amzn.to/3kcBo6A

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

David Horsager:
Welcome to the trusted leader show. It’s David Horsager. I have a special guest. And let me tell you a little about him. First. He is the CEO and count co-founder of self esteem brands. That’s a parent company of anytime fitness, waxing the city, the bar, a base camp, fitness and stronger. You. Let me tell you about anytime quick, by the way, it’s, uh, for the seventh year in a row, anytime is the world’s fastest growing fitness club. They have, uh, revolutionized the fitness industry in 2002. They, the co-founders have become good friends of mine. Uh, he is also the author of the book. Love work. We’re gonna talk about that and leading a company through the pandemic and change and having massive growth grew to, I think, uh, 5,000 franchise locations faster than anybody’s ever done it even subway. So, uh, thanks for being on the show. Chuck Runyon

Chuck Runyon:
David it’s an honor to be here. Thanks. I, I can’t wait to talk about culture, employees, leadership, all that stuff. I love it.

David Horsager:
Well, it’s, it’s a treat. Let’s go back for a moment. I, we, we want to get into, and I think we do it faster than many podcasts takeaways and usable items and inspiration, but we, we do need to set it up here. You and Dave Mortenson started this, uh, way in kind of humble beginnings. Give us, give us just some insight into what that was like.

Chuck Runyon:
Yeah. So remember this is May, 2002. When we opened up our first, anytime fitness, we’re coming up here on our 20 year anniversary. And this is, you know, although the internet was there. I mean, this is the very first iPod came out. So if you think about technology and how pervasive it is today, it wasn’t, we didn’t have Facebook or smart phones or Instagram. So in completely different world. Um, and the technology we launched with was very, you know, revolutionary to the fitness industry, giving people 24 7 access to any club in the world. You know, at the time we didn’t have many, but it continued to grow. And so we were ahead of our time, um, the thought of like giving people access to up that sometimes wasn’t staffed. A lot of people didn’t think would work. Thankfully we had the courage to just continue on and we didn’t have much experience in franchising. So Dave and I are just constant lifelong learners and we’re okay to make mistakes. We know we don’t know everything. And, uh, here we are, you know, just trying to get better. One club, one franchisee, one community at a time. And we still think that way, you know, to us, it’s a balance of micro with macro. And, uh, here we are 5,000 locations and seven continents and still seven

David Horsager:
Continents. That’s right. Even Antarctica.

Chuck Runyon:
Yes, we are the, we are the first franchise brand history on all seven continents and the December right before COVID we were there planting the flag for time fitness and who would’ve known that, you know, two and a half months later, the entire world shut down. You know, it’s crazy.

David Horsager:
It’s just crazy. And yet, I mean, you talk about one of the industries, uh, you know, one of my best friends is CEO of a travel company that only specializes in group international airfare. I mean, you talk about a hit that was taken, but you know, other than that, and, and we can argue, everybody’s had it hard, no doubt about it, our healthcare friends, our emergency, our teachers. But I mean, the fitness industry took a wall up in as far as financially. Tell us a little bit about that at

Chuck Runyon:
Yeah, we were the first industry to close and the last to reopen and remember, 70% of the fitness industry are small business owners. Our global network is really a reflection of thousands of small business owners and, and the pandemic really hit small business owners, hard. They just don’t have the balance sheet or liquidity to, to necessarily survive something like this. So it has never, in 20 years, has our work been more important to support our franchise owners, helping them with royalty relief, rent, reductions, you know, making sure they can take advantage of every federal and state relief program out there. And quite frankly, providing the emotional support to get through this. So I’ve never been more proud of our team and how we’ve selflessly, uh, supported our owners through this. Um, we lost, you know, a lot less, uh, as a percentage of clubs than the industry did. And, you know, I, I really give credit to our team and the, the strength of this brand. And now that we’re on the other side of it, we’re just doing our best to help them bounce back quickly.

David Horsager:
And you’re almost at a hundred percent back.

Chuck Runyon:
Yes, we are. 99%. We were a hundred percent for about a two weeks. And then Hong Kong just shut down again. So we’re close. Uh, we we’ll get there soon.

David Horsager:
So, you know, we’re gonna jump around and that’s okay. It’s the way we do things, but I just want to go where I, my audience wants to go and they wanna listen and hear from you. But if we think about this, you know, some people call the great resignation. Certainly employees have more power than they’ve had in a long time, maybe ever in many ways, I know over at any time and in, uh, self-esteem brands, you have an employee value proposition, and then you have the employer value proposition. Of course we can think of the employer. What’s what are you gonna bring to the table? But the employee value proposition of what is it what’s gonna make unique? How am I gonna get the best talent? How am I gonna keep the best talent? What are are you doing? And how are you thinking about that these days?

Chuck Runyon:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And very top of mind for us right now, cause we are, we are modifying our employee value proposition as we get people back to work and think about this new hybrid environment. And, you know, to be clear, I actually love this, what I would call great resignation, this opportunity where employees have more leverage than ever before, because now, or you don’t have to work at a job. You don’t love. I mean, you, you are now for, for most, you know, knowledge workers. They can work anywhere for any company. They can pick a professional industry they’re curious about or passionate about, and they can go to work. And so I love that because I just think as an individual, you know, we devote half our waking hours to work. We should really like enjoy. We should be emotionally invested it in the work that we do.

Chuck Runyon:
And so I want people who love their work, and there’s no reason now to drive to a job that you don’t enjoy. So for an employee perspective, I love it for an employer. Look, we can now hire people from anywhere in the world too. And so now it’s, it’s no longer restricted to like our, you know, a commute time of say 45 minutes. You know, we can hire people from a different country. We can hire people from a different states. So look, it’s equal playing field and the best culture wins. So I’m quite confident in what, how we attract and retain our team with a high profile Orman’s culture with not just your traditional benefits, but a, a, a culture that really cares about their personal and professional growth. We’ve always for a long time invested in the whole self development of our team. And so we want our people getting healthier. We want them growing. We want them taking guitar lessons or doing marathons, or, you know, having a balanced life and making sure they’re coaching in little league with their kids. These are things we talk about. These are values. We care about when they are here. We want them to unlock their potential and we put money and time behind that. So I, you know, you know, go ahead. Yeah,

David Horsager:
You did that before. A lot of people did. And by the way, before all this I’ve been to your offices, I gotta say some of the best corporate offices and the nicest and the coolest. And of course there’s the fitness facility, but there’s a whole lot more, and it is a, just a beautiful, uh, place to work and to be together. Um, you know, we’re, we’re seeing some of the data where not everything virtual is it went up for a little bit, but actually there is some very, the data shows being together in person connecting, actually seeing each other still does matter in, in many ways. But what are the, some of the unique things you do to create this high trust, motivated culture? Um, what have you been doing? How are you, because we can say, I mean, the employees, I, I can hear some CEOs listening, saying, yeah, the employees have all the power now. They want to get paid more. I can’t pay that much more. They want to have, you know, free, uh, you know, a spread SOS at every break. I, I can’t do. I’m just trying to make this company work. They want to have every possible benefit that anybody has and it’s, it’s hard to do. So what are you doing that others could do to, to really create a, um, high performing culture?

Chuck Runyon:
Well, as you know, our four PS, what, what we center our culture on is what we call people, purpose, profits, and play, and think about those four components. I mean, we’re investing in our team. As I mentioned, that whole self development, helping them unlock their potential as both an individual, as well as a professional, um, purpose. We talk a lot about making sure they have a direct line of sight to how we impact people around the world. And again, our people are passionate about that. They care about improving lives, you know, profits, high performance. People want to be able to move the needle on metrics. They want autonomy. They want to know they’re impacting the company in, in many ways, and then play, you know, Dave and I are very intentional about making sure that our company feels that sense of play competitiveness, creativity, collaboration.

Chuck Runyon:
And so we are intentional about bringing those four P’s to life in our day to day environment with our team, whether we’re on zoom or whether we are in the office. And I think if we bring those four together, those are the four ingredients of a high performance team. And now we’re not perfect. You know, we’re not for everybody, but we also make no apologies for our culture and what we believe in and people either fit into that or they don’t. Um, and, uh, you know, again, we want to have fair pay will never be the highest we want to have great benefits, but you know, if you look at our full holistic and employee value prop, we are emotionally and physically and mentally engaging them at a deeper level than our competitors.

David Horsager:
So let’s, let’s go a little bit deeper on that, by the way, you, everybody can read more. I think I was one of the endorsers on the book. I loved it. Uh, love, work, love work, and it talks all about those four P’s and what you were doing way before the pandemic, which is why you’re bouncing back so fast, I think, but let’s talk about those specifically. Okay. We can say people, we, we can say probably we can say we’re into the individual and we allow them to play guitar lessons, but then when, when it’s time to work, it’s like, Hey, get off your guitar. We need this thing done. So what, what, what do we action let’s take and, and give me an actionable, under a couple of those of what do you do to actually show you focus on the people?

Chuck Runyon:
Well, you know, I just didn’t exercise where I ask every single employee in our organization to email me directly. We put together a survey is to, we, we have four pillars of work here, like, uh, you know, where we’re, we’re focused on. And I wanted to know the metrics they are prioritized on. And I wanted to know a very human story on the outcome of their work. And I gotta tell you, I loved it. It was an incredible exercise. I read hundred, I read every single employee response. And so it’s, we have an opportunity to prioritize more and make sure people have visibility to their business metrics and human impact. But I was quite proud of the business they were describing. And so, you know, we really look at this as a partnership. It’s like, how do they want to grow? How see the company improving, you know, at the end of the day, people just want to like weigh in with their point of view and their experience.

Chuck Runyon:
They want to know that they’re shaping this company and shaping the culture. So it’s very collaborative. You know, we, we kinda ask them, where can we help you grow? Where do you think you can help the company? So for us, you know, we try to be a company of leaders and, you know, we’re all we, he is asking people to weigh in to like, um, not be told what to do, but tell us what you think, ask why, I mean, shape it with us. And so I just think when people feel a part of that, they actually just feel part of the company. They, they feel part of the mission

David Horsager:
When they feel listened to and they get to be a part of the change. I think this is, you know, another one of our, uh, for Ren companies here in Minnesota, especially when they were number two to tar, uh, to Starbucks. One of the unique things about caribou coffee is they really were, and they still are coming back to it. I love what John butchers doing there right now, uh, as, as CEO of caribou. But they, uh, they really had a way a pathway for a frontline almost minimum way. J coffee barista, listen, listening to them. What do they think? That’s why if you have all the cool phrases that everybody’s ripped off, thanks a latte and all those kind of things. A lot of those great ideas came from the front line barista. Yep. It was 25 years old or 17 years old because they had a pathway, many, many companies, all their gold.

David Horsager:
They’re not listening to their gold on the front line. And so getting feedback because, and what, what does that do? It engages them because, Hey, look, I matter, I, that look at that, that thinks a lot. They think that’s on every napkin, look at that idea that I had at 17 years old or whatever it is. Right. So, um, very cool. What’s what’s is there just to drill deeper, any feedback you’ve taken from somebody out in the field that now is a part of the organization, it’s part of the culture, because you were listening to people, maybe one of your fitness, you know, one of, one of the, any times in Germany or whatever.

Chuck Runyon:
Oh, you know, franchisee feedback is a hallmark of successful franchise systems. And so we are constantly getting a feedback loop of, you know, how consumers are different. What we can do with the digital experience operational practices needed, uh, you know, reports needed. I mean, it’s, it’s, uh, our job is we have a flood of information coming at us from various stakeholders. We just need to help counter prioritize that. So again, we are, the feedback is so valuable, but we allow, because we’re in so many different countries, we allow this, what we call glocal like a global brand that has been localized. And so it’s our job to listen to franchise owners, our partners, and find out like, what modifications do we need to make to the brand in terms of colors and design and offering and services to now make it like valuable to the consumers. And so I think our entire job is about listening and then making those adaptations to, you know, make sure the brand is thriving in, in that marketplace. So, you know, if you visit at anytime fitness in Japan, you’ll know it’s at time fitness, but you’ll see some changes and color schemes or club design that are different than here.

David Horsager:
That’s funny. I think of that for even my first book trust edge, when it got put into J uh, Chinese, you know, you know, red, our color scheme stands for death in, in China. So it’s, uh, or Korea. So it’s, it’s, it’s blue. They had to change a whole color scheme to make it relevant there. Like, what does this mean there? So we had to think about that kind of thing. You know, one of the ways I see that you show, uh, or people show their commitment to you, and this is pretty cool. I wanna hear the story behind it. I I’ve been to your headquarters. Of course I’ve been a, uh, an anytime member. Um, but, uh, you know, what about that tattoo?

Chuck Runyon:
Yeah, we are the, I think the only corporate headquarters in the world that I know of that as a full time tattoo room now at our first annual conference in 2005, one of our franchise owners, this is in downtown St. Paul, Minnesota wanted to get the running man tattoo on his shoulder and he went and did it. And I’m like, dude, like you literally bleed purple. And ever since then, it’s gone viral within our network. And we have thousands of people, employees, members, franchisees, vendors, who’ve gotten, they personalize the, any time fitness running man tattoo on their skin. And now at our annual conferences and training events, we have like five tattoo artists giving tattoos and, and you know what it goes back to. It’s always like a very deep purpose. It’s never about, Hey, because we have more treadmills. We’re open 24 hours. It’s actually never, even because I made so much money with time fitness. It’s about life change. Like I change my life or I help someone change their life. It always trails back to purpose.

David Horsager:
The story is amazing. And I think that’s one of the things you notice when you come into your headquarters is I, Dave took me around for the first time, your co-founder and president. And just story after story of this was the change that happened to ask person. This was that person that got tattooed here. That’s the story. This is the story behind this. So, um, I think

Chuck Runyon:
I get goosebumps here almost every day, and I bet you, I get like a lump in my throat, like at least once a, a week or twice a week because of the stories that are going on in this network. It’s, it’s unbelievable.

David Horsager:
Well, what I love about you guys too, is you live it out. You both look and are fit and, and care about it. And so you work hard and you do all these things. I, I know lots of people that are even, even, uh, C-suite folks of health organizations that don’t look any like you’d want to be. Right. Um, so you, you guys seek to live that out on stage and off stage, go backwards for a moment with me because, you know, people don’t know it because there’s so many other gyms that do 24 hour now, and it caught on so big, but you, you were back in these early days, you had this kind of wacky idea, uh, you know, how did that even come to be?

Chuck Runyon:
We were working at, you know, Dave and I worked at larger clubs. We did consulting work. We actually owned some big clubs that we were taking over. And we realized the pain points, which is, you know, we had 40, 50,000 square foot clubs that were being underutilized. We, we understood the staffing pain points and we’re like, how do we allow members like to come in wherever they want and not have staffing? So quite honestly, we were trying to solve a problem of payroll and, and access for our members. And that’s why we came up with the idea for anytime fitness. I was traveling to a club we were working with down in Oklahoma and we were promoting it at the time and they were giving away like a hardware key, like a little key. And so I remember calling Dave and my partner at the time saying, guys, I like, this is the difference maker. Like, imagine if we could operationalize this scale, it, uh, with franchising. And that’s really how it started. And that conversation happened back in 2001. And then we just, you know, opened up our first one in 2002. And here we are.

David Horsager:
And how many have copied you?

Chuck Runyon:
Uh, a lot, but you know what, um, what we’ve done a better job is, is, you know, our franchisees are so passionate about their communities. We continue to layer on efficient services that are repeatable, and then we harness the passion they have for their people in their communities and their, in their job. And we just do that better than most.

David Horsager:
What about virtual? You guys, you pivoted, and I even saw a recent video about how you, you you’re even outta time coaching from coaching people in their own home. Right? Tell, tell me about that.

Chuck Runyon:
Yeah. So you mentioned fitness earlier. I mean, fitness is found in a health club. Health is found everywhere else. And so we’re really trying to be more holistic in our health services. We’re offering nutrition with the acquisition stronger. You, we have fitness, we have recovery. And so, you know, people are picking up their mobile phone now sixty, seventy, eighty times a day. It’s our job now is to help them live healthier behaviors, to get that recovery, get that sleep, eat better, move better outside the club. And so what I love about technology is we can be anytime, anywhere, anyone, and not just a bricks and mortar, but we can actually provide better services to our members to help them live a healthier life. And I, I love that opportunity.

David Horsager:
And are there some, is there a product now where you, you might not even go to the club, but you get a coach on eating and that kind of thing. Just tell me quick

Chuck Runyon:
About that. Cause

David Horsager:
That’s very innovative.

Chuck Runyon:
I, I look, we’re trying to what we say, democratize pro health coaching, you know, right now in, in, in medicine, you know, they’re either delaying, say in knee surgery or back surgery until someone loses weight, or they’re saying, look your three months from now, but you gotta go lose weight before we do that surgery. Where does that person go? And so we, we wanna offer some health coaching for people to like be preventative, you know, help with nutrition, help with fitness, just help live a healthier life. So you’re a hundred percent. I, I think your opportunity in the future is gonna be more about digital coaching and less reliant than ours and mortar experience.

David Horsager:
I wish I knew who I could quote. I, I read this just yesterday or this morning in a book I’m reading. And they quoted somebody and said, basically you’ve got a, uh, four rubber balls or excuse me, one, uh, one rubber ball in life and four glass balls. And your rubber ball is work. If you drop it once a, in a while, actually it’ll bounce back. But if you drop the glass ball of health, spiritual family, uh, or something else emotional or something like that, if you, you, it’s scarred, it’s scar, you drop your health one that’s scar. That’s gonna leave some damage. And those are all glass balls. And yet we often put most of our end energy and everything else into the work ball that would bounce back. In fact,

Chuck Runyon:
We tell our team here, um, don’t live to work, work, to live and same thing with your health. I mean, you, your health is just really it. Health is a power source. It’s either power giving source for power draining source. And at the end of the day, let, let it be a power giving source to, to, you know, fuel of your life. If you’re not, it’s draining from your life. So at the end of the day, you can’t have it either way. You’re not, you’re not just staying still. You’ve gotta give power giving.

David Horsager:
Well, as we, as we land the plane soon, I want to get to you personally. But before we do, I have one more question on the company. How, what are some of the ways, and we didn’t get talk about this much ahead of time, but I know you’ve done some things there just coming from first full circle around the company. What are some other things that leaders could do to attract and maintain people that are specific, uh, in this new world that we live in? How can we better attract and retain employees?

Chuck Runyon:
Um, you know, we are designing, as I mentioned, we are gonna be hybrid. You know, we want to make sure prior to the pandemic, we had unlimited personal time off. Um, we are actually going to go to no Fridays in, uh, the summer. So Memorial day through September, you know, you’re not expected to be on email. You’re not expected to work. Fridays are off. And, you know, especially being here in Minnesota, we know like, you know, to enjoy summer and enjoy time with your kids during the summer break is important. So we’re just recognizing that, you know, it’s not just pay our employees need, they need some time off. They need some forced balance. They need some guardrails or on like when they like, when you’re off for the weekend, you’re off for the weekend. I mean, at the end of the day, we don’t expect you to respond an email Saturday and Sunday.

Chuck Runyon:
So, you know, what we’re saying is, look, we expect high performance outta you, but we don’t own your Saturdays and Sundays. And so what I think people want is they want purposeful work. They wanna be paired, uh, uh, paid fairly, but they also wanna like optimize both home life and their, their business life. And so we’re trying to help ’em do that. Cuz otherwise if we’re, if we constantly encroach on their life seven days a week, they’re gonna be burnt out and they’re gonna get resentful. So we, we’re almost forcing them to say, look, do not engage with work during these days of the week.

David Horsager:
Hmm. Amazing. Powerful. Well, let’s go to purse, Chuck. You know, what I’ve noticed about great leaders is they have some habits themselves that keep them healthy and it might be fitness. It might be spiritual. It might be family, but what are some of your habits that, I mean, at least we say around here all the time, if you’re gonna lead others, you gotta work at leading yourself and totally imperfectly. But how are you leading yourself? What are some of your daily routines that keep you healthy? Uh, in some of those core ways?

Chuck Runyon:
Well, you know, my glass balls, if I think about how, you know, if we think about ourselves as like an operating system, like what keeps our algorithms right? Working at high level, first of all, I’m a, I’m a seven hours a night sleep guy. I’ll take eight, you know, but at the end of the day I need, I need seven hours of sleep consistently. I need to work out almost every day and it’s gotta be a decent intensity. Right. And those two things manage my mood, my energy, my stress, it, mental acuity. I mean sleep and, and physical fitness are linked directly to mental acuity. So there’s no way, and I’m not that smart in the first place. So I need all the help I can get. Right. So those two things are big. I I’m a bit of an ambivert, which means I need a little bit of alone time.

Chuck Runyon:
I need to close my office door and I need time to read, write, or just think, um, I, you know, and I to recharge, I don’t, I don’t charge up around people. I need to charge up alone. And then it’s, it’s about, uh, you know, the people I work with, you know, as a leader, remember we get to draft and select our own team. So hopefully I like really enjoy these people. And then I’m invigorated by our work cuz everything we do helps people. So now in a mix of that throughout the week, I’m with family, I’m with friends, um, you know, I’m doing things on my hobbies. I’m doing things that I enjoy, but without a doubt, what are a couple hobbies? What’s that?

David Horsager:
What are a couple hobbies,

Chuck Runyon:
Uh, tequila drinking that helps too. Um, you and Dave, absolutely. Right. You know, I, as, uh, as I said, I’m a lifelong Minnesota. I have a cabin in Northern Minnesota. I still get up there 30 to 45 days, uh, a week. In fact I’m going there this weekend. I love it in the winter. I love it this summer. So to me, cabin is a massive opportunity to like recharge and get out in nature and get that sunshine and be on a boat. So I love the cabin. I love golf. And then, uh, you know, just working out, those are probably the three things I do the most.

David Horsager:
What’s your workout? What, what’s your common workout? You go in, what do you do? A normal day of workout and Chuck.

Chuck Runyon:
So one of our, one of our brands is base camp fitness. It’s a 35 minute hit, high intensity and herbal training. I love that thing cuz I can shut my, like my brain shuts off. I’m not checking my phone and I’m just going after it cuz it’s a group led by an instructor and that baby is still, I think the best workout in the industry and it pushes me harder than I push myself. And I need that. And

David Horsager:
Is that, is that one of the ones you can do from anywhere? Is that through video? How does that work? No,

Chuck Runyon:
You can do we have a, it’s a studio experience in a bricks and mortar. We do offer virtual, but, but this is just me now as a consumer, I push myself harder in a group environment, uh, than I do at home and I just, so I just prefer to drive the studio. So to me, that’s number one. And then number two, I go to, uh, anytime fitness and do strength training. As you get older, you gotta watch your decline and, and uh, lean muscle mass. And so it’s important for all of us that every Regener and every age to continue with some strength training. So those are the two big things I do the most often.

David Horsager:
When do you do the quiet time read, write, think like, do you have a consistent time? Like that’s always first thing in the morning. It’s after lunch. It’s

Chuck Runyon:
Always first thing in the morning. Uh, when I wake up a cup of coffee and I get caught up on the world, you know, I’ll read some of the news, I love Twitter for articles. I’ll catch up on things. And then usually right when I get in, I’ll grab my coffee too. Just make sure my day is set. So to me it’s that morning time, which really sets me up for a good day.

David Horsager:
Hmm. Love it. What are you learning now? What’s the what’s what’s what’s the big, what are you curious about right now?

Chuck Runyon:
Uh, everything digital. Um, and so we are trying to be, you know, we were born in 2002, right? So not really a digital native company. And so we’re an analog company trying to become, we’re trying to think digital first. So if you think about our future, based on digital engagement and data, you know, we, we call ourselves like rich dad, poor dad, right? Digital analytics and data. And so at the end of the day, I’m trying to learn as much as I can to help us lean first with digital.

David Horsager:
What, what does se brands look like in five years?

Chuck Runyon:
That’s a great question. Uh, we will have, uh, you know, 6,000 locations around the world and we will have far deeper engagement regularly with our consumers around the world in a digital way. And so those services will allow them to see better behaviors and outcomes. And where I want to get two is I want to be consumer health outcome first. So at the end of the day, let’s prove it. I mean, if you join one of our brands, we are gonna show you that you’re living healthier behaviors and we’re gonna quantify your outcome and we’re gonna collect that data to help you live a healthier life and coach you and nudge you along the way.

David Horsager:
Love it. Well, you got an amazing family. We both, both have four kids. You got an amazing wife. Tell me what you, what do you do to keep that home front strong?

Chuck Runyon:
You know, my kids are in age where they’re 15 to 23 years of age. Um, they are very active. They are very busy. Uh they’re in academics. And so at the end of it, you know, you just want to make sure you’re engaging with them. Um, I’m trying to attend all their games. Um, my son just opened up one of our base camp Fitnesses. He’s a franchisee within our, our network. Again, he chose to do that. I did not push him and my daughter’s studying abroad. So it’s just a wonderful time in life that they are going through. And we’re just trying to like enjoy the moment. You know, it’s only a few, my son, who’s 15, it’s only a few more years between they’re gonna be adults and going on. So we’re just trying to soak in all those little opportunities you have to like, they’re still kids.

David Horsager:
Yeah. And you got a daughter that needs to play, play basketball. Is it tonight for,

Chuck Runyon:
At the end of the basketball season, second finals, a huge game. And she’s having all wonderful season. It’s been, that’s been one of the joys of parenthood is coaching and watching my kids play sports

David Horsager:
Really fun. Very cool. Hey, one last piece of advice or recommendation of a book or, or, uh, resource for, uh, for those listening today.

Chuck Runyon:
Well, I’m not, uh, kissing up here. I love the work you’ve done. We have a, an acronym, which you’ve probably heard from Dave that we use at the corporate office. All of our breadcrumbs of problems come down to cats. And this is an acronym we use here all the time, like communication, alignment or trust. So if somehow we pick a strategy and we’ve got tactics, we put resources and you know, we check in three months later and it’s not going well. We’re like, all right, where did we fail to communicate the objectives? You know, what’s going on here? Where did the breakdown happen? Where are we not aligned strategically or culturally cuz strategically we could be aligned. But culturally, like if we’re dealing with our Japan, masters is a culture issue. Like is it are teams just not getting along like, like align, do we have aligned objectives? And do we agree on those and then trust. So that’s what I think I’m excited to get people back to work here, David cuz like the hybrid environment, zoom is great, but great teams run on trust and you can build that faster in person, all the verbal nonverbal, the caring. And so our cap, our communication.

David Horsager:
Are you listening? Kent? All right. He’ll we’ll just cut that. Maybe he’ll come back. We’re just about done. See if he can pop back in quick to wrap.

Speaker 3:
Yeah, let me see all the way

David Horsager:

Chuck Runyon:
Not hello. I’m

David Horsager:
Not sure what, Hey, I never had that happen before. Sorry. Yeah, that was good. So, uh, he’ll he, you know, that’s a good thing. He’s got everything he can edit and cut up and everything. So basically he’ll cut all, all that out, but it was really interesting. We got this. Have you said C a T? You said us, but then you just saying our cat. So just

Chuck Runyon:
Start wherever you want. Yeah. Our cat is going to improve as we come back in this hybrid environment. Even if we’re getting people in here two to three times a week, our in-person teamwork, our being a high performance team because of the communication alignment truck is, is gonna continue to be the hallmark of our, of our growth going forward and what we’ve been leaving. So, and I know that is everything about what you teach. And uh, so I’ve been to one of your seminars. There’s one coming up here in April. I’m gonna, we’re gonna send portion to our team there cuz without trust you, you cannot have high performance. And so those three things are what we talk about here all the time.

David Horsager:
Yeah. Well we love what you do and we love your, your pre presence around the world. But your presence here in the twin cities in Minneapolis St Paul you’re, uh, you and your founder are just amazing humans. And uh, we’ve just enjoyed the friendship, but also just the light you’re shining and, and really an example of building a high performing culture on trust, the four PS, which you talk about in the book, everybody that needs to know it, love work is the book. And we’re gonna put that in the show notes. We’ll put all the other inform information in the show notes, how you can find what anytime, what CE brands, what are se brands and, uh, what Chuck’s up to. But where’s the number one place they could find out about you Chuck,

Chuck Runyon:
Uh, either our website self-esteem brand.com, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, any of those

David Horsager:
Self-esteem brands.com and we’ll put all the links to Chuck and uh, all of his social media, other places. This is the last question we ask everybody only one question. This is it, Chuck uhoh. It is, uh, so trust the leader show, who is a leader you trust and why?

Chuck Runyon:
Oh wow. That’s a wonderful question. Um, our, our board member is the CEO of Sephora and he used to work at Starbucks and McDonald or Nike and burger king. And, uh, man, we got lucky with this guy. He is fantastic and him and I talk frequently and I really try Tim admire him. He’s smart as hack.

David Horsager:
All right, thanks so much for that, Chuck, thank you once again for just, uh, this time for sharing with our audience. Thanks. Most of all for being my friend and uh, just the light you’re shining. This has been the trusted leader show until next time. Stay trusted.

Ep. 78: Jason Dorsey on How Gen Z Will Shape The Future Economy

In this episode, we revisit David’s interview with Gen Z and Millennial Researcher, Author, Speaker, and Executive Advisor Jason Dorsey where he discusses how Gen Z will shape the future economy.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Jason’s Bio:
Jason Dorsey is on a mission to separate generational myth from truth so leaders can drive results with every generation. Jason is recognized as the #1 Gen Z and Millennials researcher, speaker, and executive advisor. He has been featured on over 200 TV shows from 60 Minutes to the Today Show. As President of The Center for Generational Kinetics, Jason and his team have led more than 65 generational research studies around the world. His clients include many of the biggest global brands as well as rapidly growing startups, PE, and VC. An acclaimed speaker, Jason has received over 1,000 standing ovations. His latest bestselling book is Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business–and What To Do About It. Learn more about Jason at JasonDorsey.com or on his research website, GenHQ.com.

Jason’s Links:
Website: https://jasondorsey.com/
The Center for Generational Kinetics: https://genhq.com/
“Zconomy” by Jason Dorsey and Denise Villa, PhD: https://amzn.to/308RXGt
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasondorsey/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasondorsey
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jason.ryan.dorsey
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jason_dorsey/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/thegenyguy

Key Quotes:
1. “Every generation brings something important and valuable.”
2. “It’s not about catering to any one generation.”
3. “Frequency of communication is very important.”
4. “Gen Z wants to be heard.”
5. “Provide specific examples of the performance that you expect.”
6. “Communication varies in interpretation by generation.”
7. “Gen Z expects faster access to the money they earn.”
8. “Video is the #1 way to educate Gen Z.”
9. “Every generation is having a different experience in the time of COVID.”
10. “The greatest way to test a culture is to talk to the front line leaders.”
11. “If you don’t have transparency, you don’t have accountability.”
12. “You want to make it safe for people to ask for help.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Zconomy” by Jason Dorsey and Denise Villa, PhD: https://amzn.to/308RXGt
“The Alchemist” by Paulo Coelho: https://amzn.to/2O7Ho3T
“Trusted Leader” by David Horsager: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

Kent Svenson: Welcome to The Trusted Leader Show. I’m Kent Svenson producer of The Trusted Leader Show. And for today’s episode we thought we would revisit a previous episode where David sat down with Gen Z and Millennial Researcher, Speaker, Author, and Executive Advisor Jason Dorsey. In the episode, Jason talks about how Gen Z will shape the future of our economy. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

David Horsager: So you know let’s jump right in because the new book is called Z economy, and you know you’re an expert on generations you’ve been talking about this for decades.

David Horsager: But this new generation I think people are kind of like what what really is that what’s that mean is that gen Z is that this is it that tell us about how does gen Z play into how do we lead them who are they.

Jason Dorsey: yeah I think it’s probably helpful to maybe take a step back and share how we think about generations, and then we can jump into gen Z because.

Jason Dorsey: I think that’ll get anybody on the same page so when we think about generations, the concept.

Jason Dorsey: You know we’re research firm and we specifically do behavioral research and teaching K our company’s called the Center for generational kinetics.

Jason Dorsey: And when we think about gen Z or outside the US we call them Jen said.

Jason Dorsey: we’re really focused on understanding of who they are, what makes them similar what makes them different what technologies do they use, how do they look for a job, what do they look for an employer.

Jason Dorsey: How they think about money and retirement and marriage and all these different types of things, and so in our work, what I think is most important.

Jason Dorsey: Is we’ve uncovered through data through we’ve led more than 65 studies that much of what is said about generations it’s just not true.

Jason Dorsey: And you and I have both live that right i’m a millennial and people say oh millennials are entitled the pencil fallen off they don’t show up for work they’re terrible leaders.

Jason Dorsey: And then we look at the data and it turns out more millennials are working than anyone else so United States and they’re more millennial managers.

Jason Dorsey: Or you say well gen X, you know your engine X can gen X be loyal and what our research shows us they’re incredibly loyal and very good at making decisions and leading.

Jason Dorsey: And so what we’ve uncovered is that every generation bring something really important invaluable and that’s particularly true with gen Z.

Jason Dorsey: Who is very misunderstood and that’s why we wrote the news economy book, thank you for mentioning that we were thrilled it was a number one new release on Amazon and a top 10 business book on forbes so we’re super excited to have that out, so when we think about gen Z.

Jason Dorsey: The first thing to sort of think about is when were they born that helps us to have a little bit of a mental framework to know when they start and stop so based on our research gen Z is born starting around 1996.

Jason Dorsey: and for your listeners, who are based in the US, where that comes from is, they do not remember 911.

Jason Dorsey: And that was one of our most famous discoveries early on, is that, how do we know when millennials and gen Z begins.

Jason Dorsey: Sometimes there’s a generation defining moment you remember it, it creates fear of the unknown uncertainty emotion, all these things for me on 911 I remember, I was in Los Angeles, I was there with my dad.

Jason Dorsey: was totally freaking out my dad was completely stone faced didn’t you know share any emotion, even though we’re watching the same TV.

Jason Dorsey: And about 30 minutes later my grandfather called he was about eight years old, then and and he said J boy it’s going to be okay.

Jason Dorsey: i’ve been through this before we got through it we’ll get through it again it’s going to be okay, I promise.

Jason Dorsey: And so, he was watching 911 and he was thinking about World War Two and for him those Pearl harbor.

Jason Dorsey: My dad years later, told me he was thinking about the Vietnam draft and he thought I was about to get drafted that’s why he had no emotion.

Jason Dorsey: I had no context for this so i’m just freaking out because you know my family’s from New York and I went to school there, and all this.

Jason Dorsey: gen Z this is really key does not remember 911.

Jason Dorsey: it’s not a contemporary event for them it’d be like asking you or me to talk about the JFK assassination we weren’t there we don’t know we can watch on YouTube but it’s not the same, because you don’t have that fear of the unknown.

Jason Dorsey: So that’s What helps us to understand when this gen Z start, and then you get to that what when does gen Z and right yeah it’s like what are the book ends.

Jason Dorsey: And what we what we believe to be true is that gen Z ends around 2015, and the reason is, we believe the capstone event is now coven 19 this pandemic.

Jason Dorsey: And so, as we think about coven 19 and how it’s impacting the generation.

Jason Dorsey: This is there, where were you when moment because Member there now right at that formative stage or in middle school or elementary or they’re in college university or they’re in the workforce.

Jason Dorsey: And all of a sudden everything they’ve known has been offended they had to come back home if they had left the House maybe they can’t leave.

Jason Dorsey: All of these things have suddenly change the job that they were going to do that industry, no longer has any jobs.

Jason Dorsey: there’s so much here, and then you add the social and emotional of homeschool and remote school and just on on on dating and you can’t go to work, like all of this stuff put together.

Jason Dorsey: This is the 911 for gen Z but even more so because it’s extended over.

Jason Dorsey: Such a long period of time so as we think about that the oldest members of gen Z are roughly around 25 years old.

Jason Dorsey: What do we know about them sort of directly to your question, we know they’re the most diverse generation in United States history, more diverse than any previous generation and that’s a huge part of who they are.

Jason Dorsey: What our research shows us is they’re much more tied to social causes when we think about employers, we just did our new state of gen Z study on this.

Jason Dorsey: And the social causes that gen Z really aligns with are incredibly important they look for that before they apply they look for that after they apply, whether or not they’re deciding to accept a job.

Jason Dorsey: And now, they even look at whether or not they’re going to stay with an employer, based on the social causes that the employer selects so, for example.

Jason Dorsey: In the last four years we’ve tracked social causes for employers when it comes to leadership with gen Z most wanted was to know that a company was combating climate change, that was the big sort of rally cry that generation.

Jason Dorsey: But what we’ve seen now is that their big biggest biggest by far rally cry what gets them fired up is social justice and really trying to make some changes there so they’re looking for that and employers that’s changed over the last year.

Jason Dorsey: We also know, a gen Z is they don’t remember a time before the smartphone well that changes everything when you think to your area of expertise.

Jason Dorsey: Around leadership and communication even trust, which are the world expert on all of those things changed.

Jason Dorsey: When your your preferred method of communicating and engaging with the world is a small screen and that’s all you’ve ever know well that affects everything right from banking to onboarding.

Jason Dorsey: So, as we think about the generation, they have a different relationship with technology like right now what we’re tracking is they want onboarding by text message.

Jason Dorsey: Well, many companies aren’t set up to do that they’re not set up to have communication that way.

Jason Dorsey: we’re also seeing with the generation, and this is sort of the last one i’ll leave you with before you jump into your next question.

Jason Dorsey: Is that gen Z is very frugal with their money, and this is probably the most shocking for many people, because when you think about the.

Jason Dorsey: 19 or 22 year old or 15 year old you think Oh well, they’re out there just sort of blowing their money, whatever they are and they’re spending it and it’s completely the opposite.

Jason Dorsey: This generation was shaped to the great recession and now they’ve seen the economic impact of Kobe and as a result of that what our research shows consistently we do so many of these studies.

Jason Dorsey: Is that gen Z is much more conservative or practical with their money in fact so important for all your leaders listening.

Jason Dorsey: When gen Z is considering an employer, they want to know the employer is stable well that’s a big difference than a typical teenager early 20 something.

Jason Dorsey: They want to know that employers going to offer them benefits what nine year olds that are what are your benefits well now that’s a common thing.

Jason Dorsey: They want to know that there’s retirement matching These are all things we proved out in our studies and go into detail in the book.

Jason Dorsey: But the key here is what they’re looking for doesn’t match their life stage but it actually does if you experience the events that they experience so they’re very different generation and the key is they’re not millennials to point out.

Jason Dorsey: And what I think is so important about this conversation for the type of work you do.

Jason Dorsey: Is many of the leaders who follow you and learn from you and trust you as a developer and leadership skills.

Jason Dorsey: You know, they were caught flat footed around millennials.

Jason Dorsey: millennials they thought would grow out of it, they didn’t create all kinds of change and now, people are catching up and certainly trying to navigate that the flip side is leaders are now going we don’t want that to happen again.

Jason Dorsey: So So what do we need to know about gen Z and that’s really exciting, because we think this generation bring so much to the workforce, just like every generation does and.

Jason Dorsey: This is a really critical time because right now gen Z is the fastest growing generation on a percentage basis.

Jason Dorsey: And they’re the most consistent generation around the world, so we look at it fastest growing generation, the workforce on a percentage basis.

Jason Dorsey: And the most consistent not exactly the same, but most consistent around the world, so getting gen Z right creates tremendous opportunity for leaders today.

David Horsager: So those opportunities, you know we’ve got up there, the social causes technology frugal is he you know it’s kind of.

David Horsager: easy to say okay everybody every leader now you have to give the best benefit plan give give give give give but what can we do like what are the opportunities, how do we, how do we motivate, how do we create the a place where every generation and gen Z can be their best.

Jason Dorsey: yeah and the way you sort of asked us that question I think it’s really the secret.

Jason Dorsey: it’s not about catering to anyone generation, you know I speak for clients all over the world, now that you and I both live in this virtual presentation.

Jason Dorsey: And everybody wants to know how do we adapt to gen Z or how do we adapt to millennials or whomever.

Jason Dorsey: And it’s important that we think about adapting to them, but we have to do it in the context of not turning off the other generations.

Jason Dorsey: Because we still need all of them they’re all incredibly important.

Jason Dorsey: So when we think about strategies and tactics it’s, what are the things that you can add or do differently generally that are low cost or no cost.

Jason Dorsey: That not only bring out the best to gen Z but also the other generations go wow this is pretty great I want that too.

Jason Dorsey: So as an example that text message onboarding it turns out that lots of generations, like the idea that they can go to that whole process from their mobile device wherever they are, at any time.

Jason Dorsey: Nobody would have guessed that but it turns out.

Jason Dorsey: Trends right now generational trends start with the youngest and interrupting up to the oldest it’s one of our big discoveries, so we think about what gen Z which you can do with gen Z now, these are all things that we see work with other generations to.

Jason Dorsey: The first when it comes to building trust and engagement and alignment, we find that frequency of communication is very important now, I want to.

Jason Dorsey: You know caveat this because there are certain people that are listening right now that just rolled their eyes and said oh great now we got a baby these people like whatever that is absolutely not the case, what we’re actually see as the opposite.

Jason Dorsey: Its frequency of information not amount of information, this is not a two hour annual review right Nobody wants that.

Jason Dorsey: What we find with gen Z is they want quick hit feedback that could be 10 1520 seconds a week, think of it like a text message or.

Jason Dorsey: Something a message on slack or an instant message or a quick video you film we find is the frequency is important, particularly in the time this pandemic in a hybrid work environment.

Jason Dorsey: If they don’t feel you’re talking to them, then they think they’re going to lose their job, and this is really key other generations, they didn’t think that way they thought hey if my boss isn’t talking to me we’re all good.

Jason Dorsey: But gen Z things the opposite, which is if i’m not hearing from my boss i’m probably going to get fired.

Jason Dorsey: And that’s an important distinction to make and then be able to think about that frequency that scales one message to all of them, or just as well as a message, one on one, so the key here is.

Jason Dorsey: Frequency is very, very important for them feeling engage the second thing that we hear, which again ties into your pillars that you do so well.

Jason Dorsey: As gen Z wants to be heard now interestingly it’s not the gen Z expects you to do what they say now, this is the key distinction.

Jason Dorsey: it’s not that they think that they show up and they have all the answers that’s not true, in fact, we see the opposite with gen Z.

Jason Dorsey: But gen Z wants to engage in the conversation be heard be part of that now again, you can use technology to do that, you can do morning huddles you can just make it safe and easy for them to ask a question.

Jason Dorsey: But jen’s ease entering the workforce at an older age than any previous generations in the workforce today.

Jason Dorsey: So they may be 19 or 20 but they may have no experience so they’re going to have questions.

Jason Dorsey: They want to make sure they know to ask, they want to know that they can be heard, so making it easy for them to do an outreach at safe and get a question, so they can say focus.

Jason Dorsey: works like match again everything I just shared cost 01 of my favorite ones, though, is right now we’re seeing which nz is to provide specific examples of the performance that you expect.

Jason Dorsey: And this is where you know, in your line of work sort of trust and communication really come together.

Jason Dorsey: And I see this all the time, because you know me I.

Jason Dorsey: Work with all these executives a sermon lots of corporate boards i’m really passionate about helping senior execs create the right culture and then making sure that cultures represented.

Jason Dorsey: From from the bottom up, rather than just the top down, which is what people try to do, and then it, you know doesn’t necessarily work, we want to make sure that people are on board.

Jason Dorsey: And one of the things we find is that communication varies and interpretation by generation.

Jason Dorsey: So if I said to somebody Okay, make sure you show for a meeting on time.

Jason Dorsey: Well, that can mean something very different based on generation, even though the person who said it was super clear or Jason make sure you deliver great customer service well if you’re in one generation great customer service might be chat.

Jason Dorsey: It might be a text message with an emoji and somebody else says will pick up the phone and call me or we need to meet face to face socially distance.

Jason Dorsey: So what we find is with gen Z as you create videos of the examples of what you want, so if you want customer service to look a certain way.

Jason Dorsey: make a 15 second video there’s tons of different programs that can do that, right now, that will enable you to message that out now before again people roll their eyes and go gosh Jason now we’ve got to coddle these people that is totally bunk.

Jason Dorsey: What i’m saying is when you talk with a different generation and you say something you think is really clear to you.

Jason Dorsey: they’re putting it through a filter and what comes out the other side may be may not be what you want, particularly true right now in a hybrid environment.

Jason Dorsey: And, as a result both of you are disappointed So what do you do, you make a video you make it one time, save you hours and hours and tons of times they learn faster and here’s the key that leaders want.

Jason Dorsey: You can then hold them accountable because you’ve shown them what success looks like.

Jason Dorsey: And that’s that’s magic right, I mean it just it’s such a big deal to give people a roadmap for success so they can then make sure and deliver on that.

Jason Dorsey: And then sort of the last piece, which is really into the weeds but I know you’re in the details which I love is that we’re finding that gen Z is coming of age, expecting faster access to the money they earn.

Jason Dorsey: This is one of those that I think is going to ripple up to the other generations again so it’s called earned wage access we talked about this a lot in this economy book gen Z is going to come of age.

Jason Dorsey: Having always been able to have access to the money they earned every day there’s all these different services that do it, we talked about in the book.

Jason Dorsey: And so, if your first job was working at a restaurant or in retail or anywhere, maybe you’re doing some gig economy job you finish that day you get a message and it says Jason.

Jason Dorsey: I saw you earn $54 and 12 cents day, would you like half your money astronaut, and you click yes, the money shows up instantly your account with no fees all the sudden.

Jason Dorsey: you’ve only known, the ability to get paid every day, when you need it.

Jason Dorsey: And I think that’s a big systemic shift that has huge implications across all the other generations, because what we find in our research is other generations ago well i’d like that, too, and I need it, that sounds great there’s no downside there’s no cost.

Jason Dorsey: Why waiting two weeks so it’s these sorts of things that gen Z will only know and then bring into the workforce and infuse themselves, which is incredibly exciting if you’re a generational researcher like we are.

David Horsager: love it so there’s two things i’m thinking about right now, you said something a little bit ago you know about culture and we talk a whole lot about driving high performing cultures on trust and in essence.

David Horsager: A lot of what you’re doing is that.

David Horsager: So how you said something about differentiating between top down and bottom up, how do you do it differently to create culture from the bottom and the top.

Jason Dorsey: Absolutely, so what we find is that when we work with senior execs and you know that’s typically who i’m working with.

Jason Dorsey: is getting them to sort of bring to life the culture for some of them it’s really easy for lots of them it’s really hard.

Jason Dorsey: Maybe the culture was established before they got there, maybe somebody picked whatever the statement was.

Jason Dorsey: Like there’s something there that seems to be a little bit of a divider a disconnect between who they are, and how they’re leading and what the company is viewed at in terms of culture that sort of DNA.

Jason Dorsey: So we work with them to really get clear on that process now you’re much better at that than I am i’m just bringing you a generational lens to it.

Jason Dorsey: But once we get them to get clear on what that is right that sort of culture piece of work, the trick then becomes, how do you message it in a way that other generations, all the way down to the front lines absolutely believe.

Jason Dorsey: That is sort of the secret that’s the magic and that’s what we’re really good at because it’s the messaging if you want to think about it’s like a.

Jason Dorsey: filter or we’re trying to help a message we know we want the message to be, but we know different generations are going to hear differently, even by the way, geographies genders, we go through a whole bunch of different things that we study, so one of the ways for example yeah.

David Horsager: Give us a quick example like just something quick like this generation takes it like this, this like this, this like this because we’ve got all these generations, the workplace, what would be an example, so we understand it.

Jason Dorsey: yeah so an example, might be, you know our culture is all about professionalism well.

Jason Dorsey: What in the world, does that mean, this is a sort of thing I hear all the time right.

Jason Dorsey: So if you take professionalism and you give two or three examples that each generation will understand, then all the sudden they go I got it right.

Jason Dorsey: Or if you write it in a way that doesn’t sound fake that’s better, but what we like to do is, we like to get them to put it into video, because what we know is video is the number one way to educate gen Z.

Jason Dorsey: Also, by the way, truth is millennials so putting it in a written word and posting it somewhere, making it your backdrop, whatever that doesn’t work.

Jason Dorsey: They want to see the video they want to see it come to life, and they want to see an embodied and so when we go all the way down to the front lines.

Jason Dorsey: What we find out is this, and this is really key for our type of culture work, which is when you go to the front lines, the most important and influential person of culture.

Jason Dorsey: Is what we call the local leader, and that is the person that the front lines interact with on a weekly basis and here’s basically how it looks a simple example.

Jason Dorsey: You probably saw all these executives say during this time of Kobe we’re all in this together.

Jason Dorsey: And if you’re a follower of our work, which I know you are I came out really hard against that and said that is totally not true.

Jason Dorsey: People say that it’s well intentioned if they mean well, but our research shows conclusively look we’ve done all these studies it’s all for free on our website.

Jason Dorsey: That every generation is having a different experience in the time of covert.

Jason Dorsey: At the same time geographies are different social economics are different when we go through a whole list so yes we’re all experiencing this at the same time, but the experience is very different.

Jason Dorsey: So, then, the executives go and they message out we’re going to do this we’re going to do that, we got you covered well, the first thing that local leader does has to do.

Jason Dorsey: Is they have to make sure that they truly believe and repeat what the executive just said.

Jason Dorsey: Because this is what we know happens, we see it all the time in our work that people on the front lines go to their boss, and say I saw it, you know Bob or Sally or you know, whoever said in their video they sent out to everybody, is it true.

Jason Dorsey: And that is the moment where the culture becomes real on the front lines.

Jason Dorsey: If those frontline managers do not ECHO it it’s not believed it doesn’t stick it’s just a talking head and we might as well just move on and so for me.

Jason Dorsey: The greatest way to test the culture is to talk to the frontline leaders and see if they are the backstop for what they believe to be true around that culture that’s what makes all the difference in the world.

David Horsager: let’s take a little pivot here because I think you would you would have some experience with this even though it’s not so much a generational issue but it surely is that today issue and that is.

David Horsager: You know, talking about accountability and leadership of all these different generations a big challenge today is remote and virtual.

David Horsager: How do we create.

David Horsager: accountability, how do and how do we create healthy culture and how do we, how do we do some of these things, how to in our case, how do we build trust.


Jason Dorsey: Yes, so yeah we’ve done a number of studies on this, we have lots of clients, because our sort of retainer work is exactly addressing this.

Jason Dorsey: And so I think it’s worth sharing that 99% of all companies were not prepared to end up in a remote or hybrid world.

Jason Dorsey: So anybody listening who’s going, yes, I totally get it you’re not alone, this is a completely normal, this is an experience of companies all sizes all levels are having.

Jason Dorsey: Now they have different levels of resources, different you know geographic breakdown certain things like that.

Jason Dorsey: and, frankly, in some of our clients are not really experiencing this as much if you work in a restaurant you’re still showing up if you’re a retail grocery are still showing up there’s elements that have become hybrid.

Jason Dorsey: But for many companies, this was a now a fully remote or at least mostly remote experience well, what do we know drives in your case trust, but also in our case alignment and performance and accountability.

Jason Dorsey: And I think the trick with accountability is accountability has a bad reputation, because often managers and leaders use it as a gotcha.

Jason Dorsey: Right it’s punitive high cost you, and when you come at it from that standpoint versus we all have a role to play in order to be successful.

Jason Dorsey: You automatically put people on the defensive and they go whoa I don’t want accountability, because what drives accountability.

Jason Dorsey: You know what’s the Court transparency if you don’t have transparency, you don’t have accountability, so now what we’ve seen is this big wide swath of.

Jason Dorsey: I want to know everything you’re doing there’s technology out there, right now, today, that takes pictures of employees every 30 seconds or every minute or whatever.

Jason Dorsey: And that’s supposed to you know build trust and create transparency and they say hey we know you’re picking your nose it’s Okay, we all pick our nose, we all want to photo of that but there’s that there’s the other extreme, which is.

Jason Dorsey: We just trust you to get it done we don’t care how you did it other than the fact that you did it based on the requirements we have We trust you and you’re going to deliver it to us.

Jason Dorsey: Now, the problem is somewhere in the middle right, so what we see is daily huddles and daily check ins are incredibly important primarily with small groups.

Jason Dorsey: there’s this idea that we need to have these daily check ins or meetings with large groups, once you get above about 20 people can slide into the background, I would even argue 10 but So the idea, there is.

Jason Dorsey: whenever you do, on your daily group to kick that off like in our case at our company, here we do one every morning it’s from 830 to 8:35am.

Jason Dorsey: And during that period of time we all get aligned, we all know what we’re going to do we let people know in our case, the one thing we’re going to absolutely get done today.

Jason Dorsey: And then they do another one later in the day that i’m, not even a part of because it’s a smaller group, and so the idea here is how do we create that cadence of alignment and credibility so accountability isn’t a gotcha.

Jason Dorsey: and part of that is, you have to let people raise their hand if they’re stuck on the way.

Jason Dorsey: And that’s important, especially in a hybrid nobody wants to be like oh i’m the weak link so, then what happens.

Jason Dorsey: They don’t raise their hand all of a sudden, you miss a deadline and you had no insight into it, so you want to make it safe for people to ask for help, not for them to do your job for you.

Jason Dorsey: But for them to be able to ask for help and say hey i’m stuck here can you take something off me, so I can really work on this today, so making it safe to raise their hand.

Jason Dorsey: And then I think you have to have spacing of those goals in such a way that people know their soul line.

Jason Dorsey: So, in most cases that’s a weekly goal or bi weekly I think monthly is way too on people can get lost in the weeds they can get sidetracked and so forth, and then, of course, those sheep flock to wherever they need to go.

Jason Dorsey: But the key thing here when we think about that accountability piece is you don’t want people to feel like they’re on an island and you’re just trying to catch them doing something wrong.

Jason Dorsey: It absolutely crushes culture it crushes performance.

Jason Dorsey: But you don’t want to micromanage so you want to make it safe for them to do the check ins let you know that they’re aligned.

Jason Dorsey: And then, if you use things like slack there’s tons of these different workforce collaboration.

Jason Dorsey: You know there’s ways to do this that’s also by a tech we just did a big study that looked at workforce collaboration in the US Europe and other countries.

Jason Dorsey: And what we found is, and this, I think, is really important people didn’t need the latest technology.

Jason Dorsey: This is very important, they did not need the latest technology in fact they didn’t really want it, they just wanted enough technology to be effective.

Jason Dorsey: And I think you have people out there all around the world right now going how am I am more effective.

Jason Dorsey: In terms of being able to deliver results, give me at least the minimum technology, I need to be successful, help me to create alignment, let me raise my hand as I go.

Jason Dorsey: And if something’s not working, let me be able to take some time to fix it or is that and say hey Can you help me, so I I think hybrid absolutely works.

Jason Dorsey: And we’ve proven that now there’s tons of companies, in fact, many companies, I work with like Jason we may never go back.

Jason Dorsey: And so there’s a whole hot debate there, we could spend an hour on but fundamentally, the idea is that we’ve got to make.

Jason Dorsey: hybrid work, and I think the way that people come at it and you know i’ve talked about this before a lot of people come at this and they go, you know this is terrible or it’s uncomfortable I don’t like it or people are in their pajamas or whatever.

Jason Dorsey: But the reality is I, like the other approach, which is how do we make this the best work experience, while this is experienced for having.

Jason Dorsey: Do we change it in a year people go back to sure that’s what works for you, but instead of approaching this as that’s.

Jason Dorsey: Terrible or it’s you know all these things are I don’t like it because I don’t like to be on video.

Jason Dorsey: Like just go the opposite, how do we make this as amazing as possible, so our employees are fired up so i’m leading and delivering results in a way that everybody’s coming with, and that means turn off the video and turn off the video.

Jason Dorsey: But focus on the outcome with them and you’ll see that people really rise to the challenge in this hybrid time.

David Horsager: I love it I love the idea, a friend of mine CEO of a great MED tech company said.

David Horsager: You know, in the in the war college he learned, he said something that has been helping him, he says that book of when I first went in the war college in the 1980s, they taught this.

David Horsager: When you find when you have volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity don’t spend all your time on things you can’t control but think of what can I control number one and number two what should I do first.

David Horsager: And that’s this time, what can you do hey, this is the environment we’re in quit talking about when it’s gonna come back or this or that but what can we do right now in this environment, and when you do that there’s a whole lot more than you thought at first right.

Jason Dorsey: Absolutely, and I want to say to that point, you know as you start to learn from your friend there is that you know.

Jason Dorsey: there’s a perception out there, that you got to be young to do well in this hybrid environment, but that is totally absolutely bunk.

Jason Dorsey: I work with baby boomers all the time, who frankly are better technology than I am, and if you’ve ever heard me speak at all these events always talk about boomers invented the technology.

Jason Dorsey: So that I think we have to step back from that’s where preconceived notion that just be a certain age to do well in this environment.

Jason Dorsey: Like we’re all learning in this period of time and let’s go and let people shine and do their best whether you’re 18 or 80 you can absolutely make it work it’s just choosing to him letting people give them the space to be able to rise to that challenge that I think is incredibly exciting.

Kent Svenson: That’s it for this week’s episode. Be sure to check out trustedleadershow.com for all the show notes and links to anything mentioned in today’s episode. And if you haven’t already, we would greatly appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts. This is a great way to help support the show and to help other people to discover it. But in the meantime, that’s it for this week’s episode, thank you so much for listening, and until next time, stay trusted.

Ep. 77: Susan Sly on Why Our Habits Will Shape Who We Become

In this episode, we revisit David’s interview with Tech Investor, Speaker, Author, and Entrepreneur Susan Sly where she discusses why our habits will shape who we become.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Susan’s Bio:
Susan Sly is a tech investor, best-selling author, keynote speaker, trainer and entrepreneur. She has appeared on CNN, CNBC, Fox, Lifetime Television, The CBN, The Morning Show in Australia and been quoted in MarketWatch, Yahoo Finance, Forbes, and more. Susan is the author of 7 books. Her book project with NY Times Best Selling Author, Jack Canfield, made six Amazon Best Selling lists. Susan has built channel sales teams that have produced over $1.7 billion in sales.

She is currently the Co-CEO, and cofounder, of Radius AI – a Silicon Valley and Phoenix based AI company. Susan is also currently studying at MIT with a focus in artificial intelligence and machine learning.

Susan has completed the Boston Marathon 6X and placed Top 10 in the Pro Division of the Ironman Triathlon in Malaysia. Susan is passionate about philanthropy and has dedicated a significant amount of time and money working to liberate girls from trafficking and invest in education to support women and girls who have survived trauma and abuse both domestically and overseas.

Susan is the mother of five children and resides with her husband in Scottsdale, Arizona. Find out more about Susan at www.susansly.com

Susan truly believes we can have it all.

Susan’s Links:
Website: https://susansly.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SusanSlyLive/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Susan_Sly
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP5Ir8CxCPX4CFVgU3nsIng
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susansly/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susansly/?hl=en

Key Quotes:
1. “A habit takes as long as it takes.”
2. “I will out habit anyone.”
3. “Success leaves clues.”
4. “The same part of our brain that becomes addicted to something negative, is also the same part that becomes addicted to something positive.”
5. “I became my own experiment.”
6. “You have to take care of yourself now.”
7. “Most people don’t know how bad they feel until they start feeling good.”
8. “What is the gap in your life?”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“7 Strategies for Wealth & Happiness” by Jim Rohn: https://amzn.to/3maGQXK
“Atomic Habits” by James Clear: https://amzn.to/3uoIWXh
“The Science of Getting Rich” by Wallace D. Wattles: https://amzn.to/3rLlYb6

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

Kent Svenson: Welcome to The Trusted Leader Show. I’m Kent Svenson, producer of The Trusted Leader Show. And for today’s episode we thought we would revisit a previous episode where David interviewed tech investor, author, speaker, and entrepreneur Susan Sly. In the episode, Susan talks about why our habits will shape who we are so we need to pay attention to make sure that our habits are shaping us to become the people that we want to become. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

David Horsager: You know, you talked about habits. There we might go backwards to some decisions, but

David Horsager: What are habits, you know, trusted leader. We talked about habits, all the time. Little things done consistently make the biggest difference. But what what are some habits. What routines. Do you have that help you be the trusted successful leader you are today.

Susan Sly: Well, David. Like you, I was went a different way than I am now. And so the one of the biggest ways we can shift our habits. I know you talked about this as modeling success.

Susan Sly: And I remember, you and I, having a conversation. Many years ago, and you were talking about how you lost weight and you went in.

Susan Sly: Instead of getting counseled by people who weren’t the way you want it to be. You went asked a bunch of people what they did and and you model their habits and shifting your body

Susan Sly: So I was the heaviest kid in my grade in a small town. And so I was teased. I was bullied. I was chased home i was i was

Susan Sly: You know, if you can’t see me. So I’m very all of skinned I mixed race. So I was teased for the color of my skin. I was, you know, bullied for my way it and so on.

Susan Sly: And so one day I made a decision I was watching the Olympics and I saw the the runners. Right. And I said,

Susan Sly: Okay if runners look like that. And I want to look like that. I have to learn to run. So I was 11 years old I got up at five in the morning and I went out the door to run and it was awful. I went 100 yards and I’m like, gasping for breath.

Susan Sly: But the next day I did it again and I went 150 yards and I went 200 yards. And the reason I share this

Susan Sly: Is because that is how I’ve developed all the habits in my life. So I wake up very early in the morning. It’s a habit that I am in I

Susan Sly: Detox my body I it’s a habit I have I, you know, drink close to a gallon of water a day. It’s the habit that I’m in. And if if everyone thinks about this that if we really it doesn’t take 21 days to build a habit.

Susan Sly: I’ve seen smokers who’ve tried to quit and and they’ve gone without cigarettes for six months, then they are triggered or someone who’s an alcoholic or whatever.

Susan Sly: It takes if you’re taking notes a habit takes as long as it takes.

Susan Sly: I’ve seen people I know you have to David.

Susan Sly: Who they have a traumatic life forget event and they never pick up a drink again or they never pick up a cigarette. Again, or whatever the case is. And then we see people who have a traumatic life event they keep on doing the same stuff.

Susan Sly: That got them to the cancer or got them to the bankruptcy or the divorce or whatever it is. So those the habits that I have must also align with the woman that I want to be.

Susan Sly: And so I set the bar very high for myself even my employees. I always say to them, I don’t expect you to keep up with me but I expect you to be 85 to 90% as good as I am.

Susan Sly: Because I will, I would have it, anyone if I want to learn something. I will. I would have it, someone who has way more experience than I do, because that’s what life is about, in my opinion, we keep learning and learning and learning until it’s our last breath and we go, Man, that was a rush.

David Horsager: So howdy so

David Horsager: Let’s get into this, even a little bit further, as long as we’re here how

David Horsager: First of all, routine. Any other routines, just this is can be interesting to people like what’s your you get up at what whatever time. And then what do you, what is the first thing. What kind of regular routines. The Susan sly do

Susan Sly: Sure, yeah. So Jim, Rome who, you know, amazing business philosopher. He was Tony Robbins mentor.

Susan Sly: I had the privilege of sharing the stage with him live the last time he spoke live in Dallas, Texas. I was many years ago. So I’m aging myself. I’m almost 50 if you can see me. But anyway, so Jimmy’s to say never.

Susan Sly: And you’re never start your day before you end your day never start your month before you end your month never start your year before you enter here and I said you know what, hey,

Susan Sly: I get success leaves clues develop the habit. So I got in the habit of writing out my day in advance so I use a online calendar. I use a paper Planner. And I literally will write out my day in advance. And if there’s something that’s not in alignment with my goals, it goes

David Horsager: So what do you do that when you do it by the way.

Susan Sly: At night.

David Horsager: The night before.

Susan Sly: Yet, the last thing I do when I close down my office. It’s the very last thing.

Susan Sly: I also write, make sure I write at least 10 items of gratitude every single day because

Susan Sly: To him or her, who is given, much is given, and essentially what that means is, the more we appreciate what we have, even the small things. And I think if coven taught us anything, it’s to do that right and so

Susan Sly: That’s the first thing I do that I wake up somewhere between four and five in the morning depends on the day. I, I pray I meditate.

Susan Sly: I heard the best thing last year, which is if you want something in your own life. Pray that same for someone else.

Susan Sly: So if you want prosperity you pray it over someone else if you want better health. And so I it’s got my list is so long, David, that it’s actually like an hour and then

Susan Sly: I go in my office. And that’s what I do my creative work I Clara any overnight emails slack messages like all of you, I, I’m in three slack channels and counting

Susan Sly: Text messages and all of that stuff, then I get a workout in. I move my body at least 90 minutes every day. Sometimes it’s peloton hot yoga running whatever it is getting kids ready for school. We have five kids four of them are at home right now. Yeah, we were talking

Susan Sly: And and then you know it’s getting suit suit up ready for my day my assistant does not book any meetings before 10 in the morning. I just won’t do it.

Susan Sly: Unless it’s, you know, there’s something that I must do. I’m a CEO of a company. So sometimes that happens, we work in different countries and time zones.

Susan Sly: And then I don’t let her book meetings. After three. That is my choice if I want to do a meeting between three and five. That’s my time to close things down, get my creative work done and so on. So that’s, that’s how I run my day.

David Horsager: I love it. That’s amazing. So let’s take, let’s go back to habits one step, you know, how do you build a new one. Like if you’re if you’re starting

David Horsager: With a new habit like you, like, Well, I’m gonna do this, I’m going to start running every day, but then they get to tomorrow and it doesn’t become a habit, as you know,

David Horsager: Most people wouldn’t do what you did. They gassed after honey hundred yards and they went back to bed. The next day. So breaking through and building a new habit. Any tips.

Susan Sly: Sure. That’s an amazing question. It’s it really starts with desire. And here are my tips for locking

Susan Sly: A you know really locking down that desired number one is ask yourself the question, precisely what is the habit define it clearly I want to run for 30 minutes a day not. I want to start running

Susan Sly: You know, I’ll chase you down the street, you’ll start running but it might not become a habit, like, be very clear. Number two is what is the benefit to you of developing this happen.

Susan Sly: And and list as many as you can. And then number three is what is the detriment. If you don’t develop the habit.

Susan Sly: And then number four is, Who in your life is suffering because you don’t have this habit.

Susan Sly: And then the fifth thing is

Susan Sly: What will this happen mean to five or 10 years down the road because it’s the compound effect like Darren Hardy talks about. So I’ll give you an example.

Susan Sly: So if viewers can see me I’ve got in my hand. It’s a glass men, the US a glass bottle. It’s empty of gloopy green stuff.

Susan Sly: So last year I decided, David. I’m like, You know what, I need to have more fresh fruits and vegetables, the Framingham study is the longest study done on cardiovascular health. But as an ancillary finding

Susan Sly: They found that if you consume five to seven servings of fresh fruits and vegetables a day, it reduces your risk of cancer. All kinds by 70%

Susan Sly: So I was going through my day eating, you know, eating having protein shakes and, you know,

Susan Sly: raw almonds and all that good stuff. But I realized I’m like oh my gosh, I’m not getting enough fresh fruits and vegetables. So I decided what I was going to do on Sunday is I was going to take

Susan Sly: You know, greens, I was going to take organic celery, Lemon juice in the VitaMix. I was going to mix this all up and I was going to

Susan Sly: Fill. Five Jars one for every day of the week and

Susan Sly: I was going to grab them and and that’s what I did. Now, it was really inconvenient because I had to like dedicate that time on Sunday to making this glue be green drink.

Susan Sly: And then the second thing was I had to figure out a way to make this a habit that it was so convenient that I had no excuse. Like even running out of my house to my office I could just grab it out of the fridge and I could go

Susan Sly: So that was a habit I developed last year and now it’s so ingrained in me because I’m going the detriment is the benefit is

Susan Sly: I reduce my risk of cancer and then the detriment is if I don’t do this, I’m not getting enough fresh fruits and vegetables. Maybe I could get cancer. Right. And you think about all the people in my life that benefit, that’s just an example.

David Horsager: I love it. Great, great five step process.

David Horsager: You know, I’ve got a Kent.

David Horsager: smiling at me. And by the way, Kent in studio here. Give a little wave is and maybe have a habit or I mean, maybe you have a question, but before that I’ll you know Kent is a healthy eater. He has a system of how he eats

David Horsager: I, as you know, was transformed and so I every morning they joke about me right here that I have a bag of salary I I generally eat a bag of salary every morning by noon.

David Horsager: It’s just habit, I just, I have the biggest seller. That means if I do that, I won’t do other things you talk about some of the books. I don’t know if as atomic habit or the other one I read. But basically, these Keystone habits.

David Horsager: Right, that that make other things go if I do that, then I don’t do all these other things. If I don’t do that so hungry, whatever, you know, then I won’t do other things. So

David Horsager: That’s that’s fun that you that’s a great process for or the new thing because we’ve got a couple new staff this week that hadn’t seen me just eat a green pepper, just like an apple, which is very common for me.

David Horsager: These days, but I love it. I think I would enjoy drinking what you have. They’re a little more than just eating raw salary. Some people can handle that. But it’s an easy way for me. I had

David Horsager: One thing I think about habits with what you said is, you’ve got to do what you will do. Right, so it’s not

David Horsager: what someone else would when people said to me, well, you just eat less, exercise more. Well, I’m not going to start running marathons, like my wife or like you but I found a way to do exercise that I will do. Right.

David Horsager: I’m not gonna never

David Horsager: eat ice cream. Again, but I can do this. Like, I’m not going to do all of this, but that one thing that you know I’m gonna, you know, so it’s it’s kind of like

David Horsager: Do creating what you will do you will go run 100 yards or whatever it is, at first, and now you run for days. I think so.

David Horsager: Go ahead. All right, I’m gonna I’m gonna shoot it to Kent Kent, what’s it. What’s a question for Susan slide.

David Horsager: So I was wondering that you’re talking about how how to really build

David Horsager: Good habits. Do you have any like insight on maybe someone has a habit. They’re trying to get rid of. They’re trying to stop. What are some like points. Some things that they can do in order to be able to get past that and be able to start building actually better, healthier habits.

Susan Sly: Can’t. That’s a great question. And, and the reason I I was eating a lot of celery, Dave, but it’s a teeth thing. And I was like, I, I have to can, to your point.

Susan Sly: The more you know in in, you know, in the business world, we talked about reducing friction in any sort of sap standard standard operating procedure so

Susan Sly: I look at my life like an experiment. So I’m like, How much friction can I reduce. So if I put the celery in the water in the VitaMix.

Susan Sly: Then I don’t have to deal with the teeth thing and I can just drink this thing. And guess what my digestive system loves it, because it’s already you know emulsified right so going to, I know there’s going to be the episode. Everyone’s like, that’s the celery episode.

David Horsager: We could have gone so many different directions. I have so many good we could take five episodes but

David Horsager: Let’s go with this. For now, we’ll get to some

Susan Sly: Soon, sir. So, what, what if we’re in the habit Ken’s question is that, and we know the habits not healthy. So sometimes what happens just taking a step back is

Susan Sly: We’ve developed a habit and it’s it’s served us in a way that no longer serves us because we’ve grown right

Susan Sly: And so we or we’ve gotten into a habit that we knew was toxic from the outset, but we told ourselves that we could control it. And this is where

Susan Sly: Alcoholism comes from and drug addiction or porn addiction or Netflix addiction or even coming out of this political cycle. There were a lot of people that became addicted to fear.

Susan Sly: But here’s the interesting thing in the brain, the same part of our brain that becomes addicted to something negative.

Susan Sly: Is also the same part that becomes addicted to something positive. So I’m going to go down a little rabbit hole for everyone. I’ll do it quickly. So there are four key hormones.

Susan Sly: That are the hormones of fulfillment and they’re the dose hormones dopa mean oxytocin serotonin and endorphins.

Susan Sly: dopa mean is that positive reinforcement. So how, if we go on Instagram and we like something that gives us a little dopamine hit

Susan Sly: So the same doping mean hit comes from checking something off our list and oxytocin is that hormone of connection serotonin is that that beautiful

Susan Sly: You know, feel good, kind of, you know, you know, just joy that we get and endorphins come from a challenge or a thrill right

Susan Sly: So if we understand how and I’ve done so many talks on this, we understand how these hormones reinforce our behavior. We can create any habit and we can get rid of any habit.

Susan Sly: And so how that happens is this. Firstly, we have to give ourselves an easy low friction way to check something off a box. And so that’s why social media is so addicting because it’s like, like, like right and Sarah tone is when

Susan Sly: dopa mean is when I like what Dave has and serotonin is when Dave likes what I have right so that’s how we get that. So what we do is we start our habit like this, we might write out a list and it says I easily run 10 minutes

Susan Sly: One day I easily run 10 minutes. Two days I usually run 10 mins three days. And so what we have, what we do is we begin to check off these easy goals and it gives us the dopey mean hit. There was a study done in Texas.

Susan Sly: And on saving money and the people who set small micro goals they actually end up saving more money than the people who set the big savings schools. So the people who said

Susan Sly: I am easily saving $100 a month they saved on average close to $5,000 whereas the people who said, I’m going to say 5000 they say less than 2500

Susan Sly: So we, we can build the new habit using joking mean oxytocin, the hormone of connection. So we want to surround ourselves and and David is world class at this with other people with the same habit.

Susan Sly: If you had nine friends who were marathon runners and you were the only non marathon runner. I bet you you’d end up doing a marathon. Right. And so getting in a Facebook group.

Susan Sly: You know, that’s why peloton is so addictive because they’ve got the group. They’ve got the doping mean they understand the psychology and these hormones.

Susan Sly: The next thing to Sarah tone in his other people reinforcing you for that habit. So who are your cheerleaders, who are you know again in those groups like Who are the people who are cheering you on. When you accomplish the goals.

Susan Sly: And then endorphins come from those challenges. And so maybe building up to doing a five k or building up to whatever that is. So,

Susan Sly: That’s how I suggest we develop habits. It’s that reinforcement. That’s how you know that’s how it’s served me and you know the thousands of people that I’ve spoken to on stages and things in terms of developing new habits.

David Horsager: Well, that’s awesome.

David Horsager: powerful, powerful, powerful stuff. And I think, you know, I want to jump into something else. But you know all of this talk really gets to that we believe organizations don’t change.

David Horsager: Only individuals do but when an individual does than a team and organization, even a country can I remember we were working on corruption issues in in East Africa, and we still

David Horsager: Definitely you know I’m not going flying over so much this last year with covered, but, but, you know, we have to change.

David Horsager: A police officer, we have to then change a sis, you know that we, we need to have systemic change, but we need to change. Somebody who will go away from 100 years old you know

David Horsager: Way of thinking, right. So it’s the same with health or anything else. We don’t change the company so much until we change a person of viewpoint and give them tools and resources inspiration to move forward. So I love that I

David Horsager: So many things I want to touch base on. Can you, you know, while we’re still on this. Can you give the quick kind of story of, you know, you had all these diagnosis, you should be dead doctor said, and yet you don’t have Ms. Now, just the quick what you know what that what happened.

Susan Sly: Sir, um, yeah. I had, I had Dave Asprey on my show and I think he articulated something that I was really seeking for many years is how do I answer that question.

Susan Sly: I became my own experiment. So when Montel not Montel Jordan. Montel Williams was diagnosed with MS. He became a huge advocate of the ketogenic diet. And I’m like, well, it’s working for Montel I’ll give it a try.

Susan Sly: You know detoxing. A lot of people in the MS world. We’re getting better. And they were they had some kind of regular detoxification plan.

Susan Sly: Ozone Therapy. There were so many things that I was like, hey, if it’s working. I’m going to try it. And so from that there. I came to my own formula of what works for me.

Susan Sly: And during that process of getting well I ended up getting diagnosed with Lyme disease. I was on a trip in Africa gotten amoeba. It started shutting down my organs. So in 2016 David, I almost died.

Susan Sly: And two doctors told me that if it wasn’t for the nutrition regime. I have, I would have been dead.

Susan Sly: And so I really felt like that was an opportunity for me because it took two years to come out of that. And then I was like, I get the opportunity to go into the next iteration of Susan, which was such a blessing right and

Susan Sly: And so yeah, my regime has shifted over the years. There’s still a lot of things I do, I do. IV therapy. I do. As I said, I do ozone therapy.

Susan Sly: I, you know, usually once a year, I go and I just go on like a like literal juice fasting retreat I you know self care is a big thing for me and you have to make time

Susan Sly: There are a lot of people, men and women executives who say I’ll do it when I’ll do it when we bring in this deal. You know, I, as a start up founder on the list of two companies for m&a

Susan Sly: I’m not saying that stuff. That’s how little excuse you have to take care of yourself now because cancer will come knocking when cancer comes knocking.

Susan Sly: All, you know, and I’ve seen so many people get derailed because they didn’t take care of themselves. And then the last thing I want to say about this is

Susan Sly: You don’t just wake up one day and decide to get healthy

Susan Sly: And make change in that day. And the same thing is true. You just don’t wake up one day unhealthy.

Susan Sly: All of those Doritos and the the aspartame, you had in the diet sodas and all the little things that eventually became a domino effect. And then you woke up one day and you were not well. And the other thing is, most people don’t know how bad they feel until they start feeling good.

David Horsager: That’s that is true.

David Horsager: Well, let’s take a leap here because what what I love about this and i love about you, Susan is you seek to be healthy.

David Horsager: In life, and it makes you a better CEO and you built some incredible companies that have have had global impact your CEO of a company right now. You’re, you have a huge following and

David Horsager: You know, you got these couple m&a is coming up. So let’s jump to let’s let’s actually jump to your newest radio say i i mean

David Horsager: This is a new you know i know you just came out of a new MIT program I’m you’re a continual learner. I mean, it just because you needed to have that expertise at this age for this new type of company. So tell us about that and what you’re learning these days.

Susan Sly: Are absolutely. The question I would ask everyone to really sit with you know whether you’re listening on the treadmill or your, you know, in your car on an airplane or wherever you are.

Susan Sly: What is the gap in your life.

Susan Sly: And what is that thing that if your career was only known for what you had previously done

Susan Sly: And could be known for no more that you would feel is missing.

Susan Sly: Because I’m going to tell everyone right now. And it’s not that I’m talking at you. I’m talking with you as appear. We all have that thing, whether it’s writing a book or stepping into the C suite or

Susan Sly: Going from the C suite to creating a legacy program to mentor kids or whatever it is for you. We’re all there’s always that one thing for us. So as I was

Susan Sly: You know, after the age 45 and coming out of nearly dying from the amoeba and everything else.

Susan Sly: I sat with our question because when we’re, we’re in illness. This is not a bad thing, necessarily. It’s an opportunity to reflect

Susan Sly: And so I said, what is that one thing and it was really technology.

Susan Sly: And so when i was i graduated University in 92 I left home when I was 15 years old I put myself through college. I did a science degree.

Susan Sly: At the end of university I was coding and we were doing some of the early facial recognition algorithms.

Susan Sly: And I left all of that went into the health space went into professional sales built three award winning sales teams and

Susan Sly: And when I came out of that experience. The technology was that part of me that I was like, if, if this was all I’ve done, I’ve done some pretty kick butt things, but I haven’t

Susan Sly: Conquered this mountain. So I was in the process of designing my own technology and I ended up bumping into someone who is just newly founded an AI company.

Susan Sly: And they brought me in to help them raise money which, if I have one area of genius raising money is not a problem.

Susan Sly: So, so we start raising this money and I become a co founder and we brought in $7.1 million in seed funding and we didn’t do it with any institutional investors.

Susan Sly: And you know just started growing the company. I went from a vice president or President to co CEO, which I prefer being co CEO as opposed to see you and my other CEO, he’s

Susan Sly: He PhD engineer really bright and we complement each other so

Susan Sly: where we’re at with this company is we’re providing business intelligence in the retail sector, but in the healthcare sector, we’re actually doing code pre screening and taking the burden off frontline workers so

Susan Sly: Mayo Clinic, we’re doing an installation, the VA right now and and how this is so interesting and fascinating David I want everyone, especially the CEOs to lean in and listen and and all of your, your audience.

Susan Sly: Last year McKinsey came out with a report that said by the year 20 3800 million jobs would be displaced globally by AI and machine learning.

Susan Sly: What Kovac did is it accelerated that a lot of companies who laid off people, those people aren’t coming back because they will use machine learning, they will use AI, they will use robotics and so the reason I bring this all up. You mentioned like I’m a lifelong learner.

Susan Sly: Because it’s about adapting to our terrain.

Susan Sly: And I don’t care if you’re in your 30s, 40s.

Susan Sly: Our mentor Harvey MacKay he’s still adopting he’s almost 90 we must continuously adapt.

Susan Sly: So this next iteration of my career will really be about taking artificial intelligence and using it for good. So at our company. We only do human centric AI, we only do a project if it’s going to help humans become better and not replace them.

David Horsager: How do you, I love it. How did you create your team. When you think about bringing this team together. I know you and the co founder, you got this. The complement each other. You’ve got these key things but

David Horsager: Now you’re growing company, your significant valuation.

David Horsager: Might have an couple m&a opportunities for a couple companies you have, but how have you

David Horsager: Grown that team. How do you do with building this trusted team. How do you let people go when they need to, like, how do you create that culture and that team that you need and and make sure it is high performing

Susan Sly: That’s an amazing question. And especially in the startup space where you have a high level of churn.

Susan Sly: One of the things that I think our team has done really well is we’ve hired through referrals like attracts like right so two of our amazing application engineers one came from a significant background and GoDaddy.

Susan Sly: They were friends of one of our initial investors and and they’re just amazing humans at our mutual friend Christine Jones knows this guy and he’s incredible. His name is Jeff.

Susan Sly: But that’s what we did. We started. And the same thing with all of the business that we’re bringing in. Now it’s come from our relationships, our connections.

Susan Sly: Harvey always says Harvey MacKay good agreements prevent disagreements.

Susan Sly: And it’s a philosophy. We’ve used at the company. So when someone’s coming in. We’re very clear. We’re a startup. We have an Aesop

Susan Sly: We can’t pay you what you’re worth. But here’s what we can do and you’re some days some weeks you’re going to work seven days a week, but we are also are going to be flexible. We’re gonna have an open door policy.

Susan Sly: There and I’ll just share this story very quickly for all of the people who are overseeing people so many, many years ago.

Susan Sly: In Canada, there was a band called The tragically hip and they were like, The Rolling Stones of Canada.

Susan Sly: And early in my fitness career I prepped them for tours. I was their nutritionist. I was their trainer and when they had a conflict, they would lock themselves in a room until it was solved.

Susan Sly: And so one of the philosophies, we’ve had, especially for see team is if there’s been a conflict, we do not stop until it is resolved.

Susan Sly: And if someone has an issue with someone they pick up the phone and they deal with it.

Susan Sly: And that philosophy for us has been so important in our governance, so that you know and it’s it’s felt, you know, you know this better than anyone because this is your area of genius. If the C team has conflict, the entire team has conflict.

David Horsager: Undeniably So jumping one more level. Have you had to let someone go ever. It doesn’t benefit.

Susan Sly: Yeah yeah

David Horsager: And we know how, how do you either decide that. And how do you do that because that’s, you know, that’s a challenge people have. It’s like that like me.

David Horsager: I hate letting people go but sometime the most trusted thing you can do, or the, excuse me, just the best thing you can do the most compassionate thing you can do for them and the organization is to let them go. And yet it plagues many of us.

Susan Sly: We let them go because it was a trust issue. They’re very capable engineer super smart.

Susan Sly: And and they left our company and they got a $400,000 you know next job. Right. But it was a trust issue and our CTO, he came from a company called amino which is the largest privately held healthcare database in the world.

Susan Sly: And this man has an amazing soul, and he came to us and he said, Listen, this is what this person did to violate trust.

Susan Sly: And he’s great in terms of his skill, but that’s just not going to work. And so anyone. We’ve let go of and there hasn’t been a lot. It’s been a trust issue. And that’s our number one KPI if we can’t trust you. You’re out you don’t care how many PhDs, you have.

David Horsager: Right.

David Horsager: I love it.

Kent Svenson: That’s it for this week’s episode. Be sure to check out trustedleadershow.com for all the show notes and all the links to any of the information mentioned in today’s episode. And if you haven’t already, we would greatly appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts. This is a great way to help support the show and for other people to discover it. But in the meantime, that’s it for this week’s episode, thank you so much for listening, and until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 76: Ginger Johnson on 3 Effective Ways To Connect Virtually

In this episode, David sits down with Ginger Johnson, Human Connection Expert, Speaker, and Author, to discuss 3 effective ways to connect virtually.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Ginger’s Bio:
Most biographies for speakers are full of credentials, awards, accomplishments and other unexciting information.

Let’s say this for now: Everything in life is Powered By Connection. And Connection is Ginger’s jam. It’s the art, science and energy that makes the world go ’round.

She works with great leaders, teams and organizations to do their best work by tapping into the incredible possibilities meaningful connection creates.

If you want to learn more about her, she invites you to visit gingerjohnson.com If you’re really curious, you’ll likely Google her anyway, finding her TEDx talk, book, events and programs, YouTube channel, and various and sundry other information all promoting and teaching human connection.

For now, she thanks you for your time and attention. Let’s get to it.

Ginger’s Links:
Website: https://gingerjohnson.com/
“Connectivity Canon” by Ginger Johnson: https://gingerjohnson.com/product/connectivity-canon/
Ginger’s Blog Post on Connecting Over Dinner: https://gingerjohnson.com/connecting-over-dinner/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gingerjohnsonconnector/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/gingerjohnson
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCILGZjxOFhI1cbnbP7_scIw

Key Quotes:
1. “When we are where we want to be geographically we have a deeper richer meaning to ourselves and our work.”
2. “Color has everything to do with our engagement as well as our disengagement.”
3. “We are starved for those interactions that warm us up.”
4. “Ask intentional questions.”
5. “Travel is a portal into who people are.”
6. “Simple still requires work.”
7. “Think of the people you work with as direct supports not direct reports.”
8. “Connection, like trust, happens one at a time. One step, one effort, one move.”
9. “Write like you speak.”
10. “Self-talk is really powerful.”
11. “There’s nothing small about anybody’s life.”
12. “Objective is suspending judgement.”
13. “Objective is the curious.”
14. “We’re only distracted if we let ourselves be.”
15. “Set the tone as the leader.”
16. “When given the opportunity, and teed up in a safe space with grace, everybody rises to the challenge.”
17. “Use and instead of but.”
18. “Fun leaders are so grounded.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
Ginger’s Blog Post on Connecting Over Dinner: https://gingerjohnson.com/connecting-over-dinner/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

[david_horsager]: Welcome to the trusted Leader show it’s David Horsager, I have a special

[david_horsager]: guest. She’s got real snows in the background. If you’re watching this, most

[david_horsager]: of you are listening. Her name is Ginger Johnson. Welcome Ginger.

[ginger_johnson]: Hey, David. so so happy to be here, Thank you.

[david_horsager]: I’m glad to have you. You grew up in Minnesota. You went to college in

[david_horsager]: Minnesota, but for years you’ve been. you’ve lived a lot of different

[david_horsager]: places. and today you are in Mazula Montana. That’s where you call home

[david_horsager]: these days, and I see snow in the background

[ginger_johnson]: Yes, it feels so good. That’s a connecting point right there. you know this,

[ginger_johnson]: David. when we are where we want to be geographically, whether it’s

[ginger_johnson]: permanent or traveling, we have a deeper richer meaning to ourselves and our

[ginger_johnson]: work. It’s it’s like. Yeah, why would I not do this?

[david_horsager]: Exactly Well, this is. this is going to be fun.

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: Give us a couple. just a couple of little inside tips things nobody knows.

[david_horsager]: Maybe start with that cool. Not everybody can see your cool haircut. and uh,

[david_horsager]: we are going to get into you as really a chief connector. Connection is the

[david_horsager]: the sixth pillar of trust in our research and our work. You’re an expert on

[david_horsager]: connection. We’re going

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: to jump into that in a moment, but get personal for for a second, and maybe

[david_horsager]: jump into the mohawk.

[ginger_johnson]: it, it came about organically I, I don’t like to fuss with my hair For some

[ginger_johnson]: people, it’s just hair, Which that’s I. That’s my camp. Some people it

[ginger_johnson]: matters a lot more, but I, it just more. though. Over the years it’s been

[ginger_johnson]: long. it’s really cur. It’s really curly naturally and it’s custom colored

[ginger_johnson]: by the way. If you’re watching, it’s like Mother nature. so

[david_horsager]: It looks very cool. I’ll tell you what y. it’s it’s it. it is connecting,

[david_horsager]: right you, I. I like this. Well, you know, as a friend you said this before

[david_horsager]: you said. It’s like, uh, like being pregnant on your head.

[ginger_johnson]: yeah, yeah, people are compelled to comment on it. Do the drive by

[ginger_johnson]: compliment or the whatever. It’s a little long on the side, So if you’re

[ginger_johnson]: watching, you know it. you don’t quite see the skin, but we’re getting there

[ginger_johnson]: and it’s become kind of a signature look and I and I like it. It’s nice and

[ginger_johnson]: cool in the summer, although you know, bundle up in the winter.

[david_horsager]: Yeah, well,

[ginger_johnson]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: you’ve got some amazing clients about. uh, you know your connection work.

[david_horsager]: Ive we know each,

[ginger_johnson]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: and I’m just um, just really love your work and I love how it fits with the

[david_horsager]: work we do with trust, but let’s jump into connection. People are wondering

[david_horsager]: some real questions today and we can go all over in this time. but people

[david_horsager]: are really wondering how do I connect? Virtually how do we stay connected in

[david_horsager]: this virtual environment? Can you give us some some tips? Youre leader

[david_horsager]: trying to lead a team. You don’t get to see your people all the time. What

[david_horsager]: do you do?

[ginger_johnson]: Yeah, excellent question. David. let me give you three really useful points

[ginger_johnson]: right here on virtual online. connecting number one. Make sure that you have

[ginger_johnson]: enough space. Let’s talk about the physical first, and then we’ll get into

[ginger_johnson]: the mental and some of the emotional physical space. Like I’m literally

[ginger_johnson]: standing in front of a picture window. I have space around me to move around

[ginger_johnson]: when you are online. Give as much of yourself in. Show as much of yourself

[ginger_johnson]: as possible, so if you can show from the waist up, that’s so much better.

[ginger_johnson]: because when we’re in person, we see the whole person. So that’s the first

[ginger_johnson]: one physical space show up in a bright solid color as much as possible. That

[ginger_johnson]: is easy. Like I’m wearing red. today. I often wear turquoise or yellow or

[ginger_johnson]: something like that, so that’s a physical piece of how to connect better.

[ginger_johnson]: Because that color like I got the art background, Uh, color has everything

[ginger_johnson]: to do with our engagement and and as well our disengagement. Okay, so that’s

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[ginger_johnson]: a. That’s a physical piece. Another piece. Emotional peace is start a few

[ginger_johnson]: minutes before you’re actually going to start. Like give people open the

[ginger_johnson]: foyer. You know, let people in, David. Just like when we have people over at

[ginger_johnson]: our home. We don’t like. Let’ stay out there until dinner is served, and

[ginger_johnson]: then I’ll let you in. Oh no, no,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: let people in because we are starved for. even in a ▁quote

[ginger_johnson]: regular world, we’re starve for those interactions that warm us up. It’s the

[ginger_johnson]: on ramp, so give yourself three to five, eight minutes to like Hey,

[ginger_johnson]: everybody, and then have something you want to ask people. One of my

[ginger_johnson]: greatest points I would offer David is when you’re welcoming people into an

[ginger_johnson]: online room as well as a physical room is as what people are grateful for.

[ginger_johnson]: In that moment it can be anything because Gret. You know this, trust it

[ginger_johnson]: gratitude connection at huge. That’s the bed rock when we are grateful. We

[ginger_johnson]: trust when we are grateful we connect all those things. So that’s one of the

[ginger_johnson]: Um pieces. A third piece is

[david_horsager]: So before we gets to number three, I just want to comment. This is really

[david_horsager]: great and what this does? By the way, I, I love where this takes people.

[david_horsager]: because grateful takes people up. right. we started. Uh, we start every one

[david_horsager]: of our weekly meetings as a staff and we’re in person these days, but our

[david_horsager]: number one first question around the boardroom table is what are you

[david_horsager]: grateful or ex? What are you celebrating personally?

[ginger_johnson]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: And what are you celebrating from last week at work? So what what? what do

[david_horsager]: we celer? It takes us up like. Oh, hell, I just had this happen with my kids

[david_horsager]: or this, and it’s quick our team can whip around it. It’s not some big

[david_horsager]: lungth, and Um, and then the other is. what are you grateful for it? We

[david_horsager]: like. what? what? What are we celebrating at work? And it just brings people

[david_horsager]: toward moving up and forward And it doesn’t mean we don’t have to see the

[david_horsager]: blind spots or deal with mitigating risks or close gaps, And

[ginger_johnson]: right,

[david_horsager]: doesn’t mean we’re certainly not incredibly imperfect here at the institute,

[david_horsager]: but it brings us forward, so I love that. so number one, look at the

[david_horsager]: physical space. I just learned something right there, number two, the

[david_horsager]: emotional space and start by asking a question. Love it next.

[ginger_johnson]: and the third we’ll build on these two is as you let people in. as you show

[ginger_johnson]: up more fully physically. ask different questions, ask intentional

[ginger_johnson]: questions. So I just gave a a dinnery experience for a board of directors in

[ginger_johnson]: Nashville, David and Um, I was brought in to provide you know they’re going

[ginger_johnson]: to eat dinner anyway. So let’s have a a different experience So we get into

[ginger_johnson]: the board meeting better, so we communicate better. So have intentional

[ginger_johnson]: questions. Have questions that are slightly unexpected that are personal

[ginger_johnson]: enough not intimate here. I’ll give you my one, am, my go to is tell the

[ginger_johnson]: story with a certain number of people. You can delineate those people, or

[ginger_johnson]: you can go the whole room. Tell the story of your first paycheck job like.

[ginger_johnson]: Oh, Everybody’s got one of those the stories that come out with that David

[ginger_johnson]: are so fun. they are automatically connecting points they are offering And

[ginger_johnson]: what you’re doing by asking those intentional questions Is you’re helping

[ginger_johnson]: people then immediately, just like you do with your meetings, you set the

[ginger_johnson]: bar higher immediately, So everything that dominos after that is way more

[ginger_johnson]: intentional. Those conversations around that question seemingly innocuious

[ginger_johnson]: yet it’s very strategic because then I get into the headspe’s like, Oh, this

[ginger_johnson]: is something that’s real. It’s not like. if youre an animal. What? What

[ginger_johnson]: would you be like That doesn’t go anywhere?

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[ginger_johnson]: Who cares? See a draft.

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[ginger_johnson]: if you talk about. Oh yeah, M shoe store. You got a shoe store. One too, or

[ginger_johnson]: my uncle, or right, my my grandma or something. It goes in a completely.

[ginger_johnson]: It. It’s so much more constructive. It’s so much more meaningful. It

[ginger_johnson]: definitely helps establish trust because you’re sharing a story that’s

[ginger_johnson]: personal. There’s a difference between personal instment, but ask

[ginger_johnson]: intentional questions from the Ge. go,

[david_horsager]: I love this. So we got a question for number two. Which is what are you

[david_horsager]: grateful for Yet? You got exactly. You got a second question. Tell a story

[david_horsager]: of a pi. Do you have one more question? By the way that connects? That could

[david_horsager]: connect in the? Yeah?

[ginger_johnson]: oh, um. I do. One is more personal. Um, what I would see here? What’s

[ginger_johnson]: another? good one? Okay? Sure, yeah, I’ve got a whole lity of them. Um one

[ginger_johnson]: is. there’s a pile of airline tickets in front of you on the table. You pick

[ginger_johnson]: one of those up. You can go anywhere. Where would that be? travel? as you

[ginger_johnson]: and I both know, even before we started recording the show, Travel is a

[ginger_johnson]: portal into who people are. Where do you want to go? I just want. I want to

[ginger_johnson]: stay cation. I’m stay here. I’m turning my phone off. I’m getting the

[ginger_johnson]: movies. I am making cookies. whatever, or it’s Oh, I’m flying off to Gree.

[ginger_johnson]: so I’m going to Duby, or I’m going to Wisconsin. Whatever it is, travel

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[ginger_johnson]: tells a different story about who we are and because we connect so

[ginger_johnson]: differently like I’m sure that the people li i. if you’re listening right

[ginger_johnson]: now, you’ve got your own travel stories and you’ve got your own magic with

[ginger_johnson]: those. whatever

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[ginger_johnson]: that spectrum of magic is from, Oh, from Holy, gets to amazing Grace on that

[ginger_johnson]: one, yet

[david_horsager]: Yes,

[ginger_johnson]: travel next, so that that’s another one. Like where would you go tomorrow?

[ginger_johnson]: You could go anywhere,

[david_horsager]: I, I love it. I, and you could. P. I. I’m just jumping around other things

[david_horsager]: that connect people like. What would you read? What book would you pick up?

[david_horsager]: What would you? you know? Those are? those are. so. Yeah, knowing people

[david_horsager]: connecting more, I got to. I got to jump one more place on this before I get

[david_horsager]: to the next question. And that is you know. I’ve got. I’m just thinking

[david_horsager]: personally, got a massive pharmaceutical company we’re working with. They’re

[david_horsager]: all over the world. Some of the leaders might be in Europe, where all their

[david_horsager]: people are in the States or Japan, or And you know, And and they’re

[ginger_johnson]: right.

[david_horsager]: feeling they, They haven’t gotten together for two years. They, hardly. in

[david_horsager]: many cases they’ve had turnover and they, they’ve never met their boss in

[david_horsager]: person and they’re feeling a an incredible lack of connection, which is is

[david_horsager]: is making it hard to hold people accountable. It’s it’s making it hard to

[david_horsager]: really get. Give clarity on priorities. What would you say to that leader

[david_horsager]: that’s trying to connect with this person they are leading? They’re in

[david_horsager]: another country. There’s a lot of gaps, even communication wise. What are?

[david_horsager]: Is there any simple uh

[david_horsager]: ways?

[ginger_johnson]: Yes, Yes, there are, and I’d love that you use the word simple. There is

[ginger_johnson]: some some ease to simplicity. However simple still requires work which we

[ginger_johnson]: know. so I want to make sure that super up front one of the best ways and

[ginger_johnson]: I’ve worked with some great farmer companies, too. They’re lucky to have

[ginger_johnson]: you, David.

[david_horsager]: H,

[ginger_johnson]: when you think about global teams, which is what you’re setting the stage

[ginger_johnson]: for,

[ginger_johnson]: Intentionally schedule a certain amount of time each week. Invest and

[ginger_johnson]: invest’s not to spend

[ginger_johnson]: in one on ones with your people with your team.

[ginger_johnson]: There’s somebody and I forget the resource right now. I think it might be a

[ginger_johnson]: great game of business. Think of the people you work with as direct

[ginger_johnson]: supports, not direct reports. There’s a difference between support and

[ginger_johnson]: report. And so when you set up, say you’re the c, e o or Cw, Suitet or

[ginger_johnson]: director, whatever it is, And you feeling that dis connection, then set up

[ginger_johnson]: intentional appointments and don’t make them fifteen minutes. Make them a

[ginger_johnson]: half an hour. Make them forty five. whatever that is like, Hey, I want to

[ginger_johnson]: let’s let’s get to know each other better. This isn’t kumba. y. At the same

[ginger_johnson]: time Coumba Ya has some value. So what is the Ya? You’re trying to cumba

[ginger_johnson]: with your team? What do you want to know? You can gaify some of it too.

[ginger_johnson]: Because, because we like well, tell us about the ▁x Yise, He, take a picture

[ginger_johnson]: of you hosting a mug in your backyard. You could put a a montage together of

[ginger_johnson]: the different people and then challenge your team. Say hey, I want to get to

[ginger_johnson]: know all of you. Here’s my schedule. sign up over the next six months, and I

[ginger_johnson]: know that these of these teams are enormous. I get that this is still doable

[ginger_johnson]: because connection like trust happens one at a time. one step, one effort

[ginger_johnson]: would move. So that’s that’s one way to do it. Also, I, whenever I fly

[ginger_johnson]: David, I grab the flight magazine and I, I read the The walkidy walk from

[ginger_johnson]: the airline. I say that with respect, the the head person who’s writing the

[david_horsager]: hm.

[ginger_johnson]: editorial Welcome to you know, United or Alaska, and they, they seem like

[ginger_johnson]: they’re really real people. So the other tip I’ll I’ll leave with This one

[ginger_johnson]: is right like you speak

[ginger_johnson]: like I’ve

[ginger_johnson]: read books. I like your books. I like him. I have them, because I can hear

[ginger_johnson]: your voice to me that engenders not just trust. It helps the message sink in

[ginger_johnson]: better, and in fact, I’ve been to one of your workshops from one of your

[ginger_johnson]: fabulous facilitators like Oh, this feels real. So speak real. conjunct.

[ginger_johnson]: your words like Hi, Are the copy editors? You need to make sure it sounds

[ginger_johnson]: like you’re having a real conversation online or off.

[david_horsager]: this is a really big tip for online. In fact, I heard something brilliant.

[david_horsager]: People seemed to kind of come to some of the same things here. I heard

[david_horsager]: someone, I believe on a maintage. We both together,

[david_horsager]: Aaron King, I believe,

[ginger_johnson]: Oh yes,

[david_horsager]: just jumped in my head. I don’t know her personally,

[ginger_johnson]: Mhm,

[david_horsager]: but she said something she said. If people would just write like they talk,

[david_horsager]: people would want to look at their social media, but instead they say

[david_horsager]: instead they say silly things. Um. and and I’ll be real authentic here. I

[david_horsager]: never liked it. We had our art team and I’ve got a great team. but they

[david_horsager]: would say, Uh, David is honored to speak at wherever today, and I’m like,

[david_horsager]: Uh, I would never say that that. I’m like like I, you know, like, but, but

[david_horsager]: you know there is something about people knowing where you are and whatever

[david_horsager]: we don’t post, hardly as much just because I don’t like. you know. I don’t

[david_horsager]: like doing social media. you know, so that’s kind of get run through. but

[david_horsager]: um, but it’s like you know if I do, I might say something like boy, I

[david_horsager]: learned this well, I was speaking all right. I saw. Have you ever thought of

[david_horsager]: this or uh, you know I, That was interesting and maybe I can bring other

[david_horsager]: people along with me. That just gives an interest a value to them. Not like.

[david_horsager]: Oh, about me. it’s just I. when we start to think of writing even on social

[david_horsager]: media, more like David. Um would say it would speak, it just became much

[david_horsager]: more me, like I was more great, proud of it, and more like Okay, This is on

[david_horsager]: brand. Not that kind of whatever you know, Social speak. Um,

[ginger_johnson]: Yes, and I’ taken my errands classes too. Absolutely you can. you can couch

[ginger_johnson]: your message by starting with the audience and everybody. Frankly, I rarely

[ginger_johnson]: wa the shouldd, but think about that seriously, Because you can get to what

[ginger_johnson]: you offer and if it’s truly an offer, the right person will pick it up. Make

[ginger_johnson]: sure it relates to that audience first. That’s the connection that to trust

[ginger_johnson]: youring tot a hundred percent with you,

[david_horsager]: love it. So I got to get to this because this is interesting. You wrote an

[david_horsager]: article on it. Everybody can learn more Ginger Johnson, Dot com, Ginger

[david_horsager]: Johnson. make it snappy, Ginger. All right, Gingered. I’m sure somebody said

[david_horsager]: that, but that

[david_horsager]: that

[ginger_johnson]: Nicke.

[david_horsager]: you are

[david_horsager]: uh, ginger, Ginger Johnson, Dot com, And um, we’ll see all this in the show

[david_horsager]: notes, and where you can find out a whole lot more of the about this Chief

[david_horsager]: connector and friend of mine, but I want to jump in to the activate the

[david_horsager]: power.

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: Tell us about it.

[ginger_johnson]: like you, David. I’ve written some books and we need to have a cup of coffee

[ginger_johnson]: and find out why you’ve exactly written books. I could hedge, you be. I

[ginger_johnson]: wrote the book because I wanted it to be a tool. It’s actually my second

[ginger_johnson]: book. It’s the connectivity canon, And as I was writing it, I got it. You

[ginger_johnson]: get in. I get into flow. I love to write. Get into flow, and things start

[ginger_johnson]: coming out like. Why? why is this easy for me Or why does this feel easy for

[ginger_johnson]: me? Which is the whole reason I wrote this people’. like you’re so good at

[ginger_johnson]: this. How do you know everybody when you walk in the room like I’m listening

[ginger_johnson]: Different like the ears changed up like a potato head dog like. Oh, they’re

[ginger_johnson]: saying something. There’s something that they want that I can teach them And

[ginger_johnson]: so, as I was writing the canon,

[ginger_johnson]: I realized David that there, there, some themes were coming up over and over

[ginger_johnson]: again. I’m a positive person, just like you. Are they comeing on our

[ginger_johnson]: poorers, So we’re either people or we’re not, and that’s very obvious. Right

[ginger_johnson]: up front, Positive is the first part of power. You must be in the positive

[ginger_johnson]: space, Because if you’re in the positive space, you don’t have room for the

[ginger_johnson]: negative. Either, Right, positive is trusting Positive is silver linings.

[ginger_johnson]: Positive is the snowstorm and I’ve got all the cocoa and goodies I need, and

[ginger_johnson]: I’m inside the object.

[david_horsager]: How do you do it? Oh, weve got to jump in here, Because how do we get? So

[david_horsager]: for good reasons, somebody else has. Um, you know, incobed. They’re in a

[david_horsager]: tiny apartment that.

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: Uh,

[david_horsager]: Mom is trying to lead these kids and she’s doing her job. The husband has

[david_horsager]: coveed, maybe, or your partner has co. whatever they, And, and they’re stuck

[david_horsager]: in this department. This is happening. That’s happening. Their parents just

[david_horsager]: passed away. I mean there, there’s real stuff going on and

[ginger_johnson]: right,

[david_horsager]: and and and the the dog’s sick. What? what do we? You know? How do we? You

[david_horsager]: know? What are some ways we can bring this

[ginger_johnson]: yes,

[david_horsager]: Um positive

[ginger_johnson]: Yes, Yes, you’re right, cause this is not just a cowgon ad.

[david_horsager]: for those that it’s not natural for for

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: you and I? it’s natural right.

[ginger_johnson]: y,

[david_horsager]: It’s it’s natural to start there.

[ginger_johnson]: yes,

[david_horsager]: And and it’s not always fair because we had good for me. I think of my

[david_horsager]: upbring and a whole lot of things that built that in me. That wasn’t because

[david_horsager]: of me. And yet I see what happened to someone else and it’s not their fault

[david_horsager]: that that happened to them. And yet they have to carry a different way thin

[david_horsager]: me, and I’m frustrated. they’re not positive.

[ginger_johnson]: right, right right, you’re absolutely right. I’m glad you stoped the bus and

[ginger_johnson]: said, Hang on. Let’s back up. The Pa. must start with the Y in mind. set.

[ginger_johnson]: the Why is your purpose? it’s your vision. It’s literally shutting your eyes

[ginger_johnson]: if you’re listening right now, close your eyes. take a deep breath and say

[ginger_johnson]: Okay, Why am I doing this thing? What? What is this work? I’ve chosen to

[ginger_johnson]: engage in? What is this spousal arrangement? This these children. The the

[ginger_johnson]: dog, the whatever it is, in every kind of configuration. Why are we doing

[ginger_johnson]: this thing? Why am I waking up and jumping into this? That’s a really really

[ginger_johnson]: big question. That’s learning to trust yourself for the vision. That’s the

[ginger_johnson]: stuff that gets us through the slog and the slew and the muck and a lot of

[ginger_johnson]: people. You’re right. There’s no disrespect to that. There’s whoof. Yeah,

[ginger_johnson]: this is one unprecedented time at the same time. No matter when you’re

[ginger_johnson]: listening to this, there will always. that’s called life welcome. It was not

[ginger_johnson]: an easy pass. It was like this is life. So to pause in those moments or to

[ginger_johnson]: pause the beginning your day. Meditate. whatever meditation doesn’t have to

[ginger_johnson]: be sitting with your legs crossed. It’s pausing in a ▁quiet space in a

[ginger_johnson]: closet in the corner of the kitchen, outside on your stoop or on your

[ginger_johnson]: balcony.

[ginger_johnson]: O, Okay self, remind me, taugh, self talk, I think is really powerful. Uh,

[ginger_johnson]: and and rescenter, why are we doing this? We’ve both had you know. in our

[ginger_johnson]: conversation day we talk about like we, the tough stuff and getting through

[ginger_johnson]: in it while it might feel very frivolous or white collar like. actually, it

[ginger_johnson]: still matters. There’s nothing small about anybody’s life, So to

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: reframe and get back into the why we’re doing this thing and then give

[ginger_johnson]: yourself the permission. That’s a whole other topic we can talk about

[ginger_johnson]: another time. The permission

[david_horsager]: Mhm, mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: slips to let go of what still is congesting the traffic of your life. Once

[ginger_johnson]: you’ve got that ye re established. Okay, I marry this person ’cause I love

[ginger_johnson]: them. I mean still on that space is is still a relationship I’m willing to

[ginger_johnson]: invest in. Yes, then the mindse that’s where the power starts to come in. If

[ginger_johnson]: I’m going to say yes to this that I’m choosing the choice. I am choosing

[david_horsager]: mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: to be in the positive mindset. What is that that means? looking for the

[ginger_johnson]: positive, looking for the Y in the road? as I toll in my book too, and I

[ginger_johnson]: teach myth model. When we reach those wise, it’s not a yes or no. it’s it’s

[ginger_johnson]: a stay or go, David. So we stay

[david_horsager]: Mm.

[ginger_johnson]: the course or we go in a different direction So you’re right. we need to tea

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[ginger_johnson]: up. This is not just some piece of fluff.

[david_horsager]: yeah, and I I want to get to the others, but I I love this because I know

[david_horsager]: you and you are. um, a fullj. You’re You bring positive and you exude it and

[david_horsager]: it’s so fun, but you also are real And that’s what I love about this. It’s

[david_horsager]: not just some kind of coumb. By Aw, it’s like and the and the w. by the way

[david_horsager]: for people is is a y in the road. It’s not just just having the y. the

[david_horsager]: purpose. A couple

[ginger_johnson]: Yes,

[david_horsager]: of ideas come to mind that I want to link together of what you already said.

[david_horsager]: Um, but you said pause. maybe pause and breathe in a moment. That can help

[david_horsager]: us think positive. Uh, for me, exercise can help me. Movement can help me be

[david_horsager]: Uh, more positive. letting things go. But one thing you said already, Uh

[david_horsager]: earlier, being grateful so at least it calls it. see the good. Uh, my wife,

[david_horsager]: leasta

[ginger_johnson]: yes, yes,

[david_horsager]: see the good. and sometimes we’re like Oh the K. something in the morning

[david_horsager]: like we’re This is frustrating and that’s happened or what? The kid? What

[david_horsager]: kind of choice do they don? Watch us as amazing parents that we are

[david_horsager]: you. But, but we’ll hold hands in bed, Uh, before we get up or before we

[david_horsager]: sleep, and we’ll just say Okay. What are you grateful for? We? gra. we got

[david_horsager]: to stop that talk and it’s not that we don’t want to see the negative and

[david_horsager]: deal with it? Um, but we got to pause and just start naming the good if we

[david_horsager]: really get. if’. Frustrated about something. There’s holding hands and

[david_horsager]: saying, Oh yeah, but I’m grateful for this. I’m grateful that that does

[david_horsager]: shift toward positive for us. So it’s one idea that piggybas on what you’re

[david_horsager]: doing, so the pe is positive. Oh,

[ginger_johnson]: Oh is objective. I debated between open minded and objective, David and

[ginger_johnson]: objective quickly rose to the top. You can have a whole room of people and I

[ginger_johnson]: do this when I’ giving keynote’s main stages like raise your hand. If you

[ginger_johnson]: think you’re open minded, what’s going to happen? Everybody can raise her

[ginger_johnson]: hand or stand up. You can see this comage should fish and barrel. And then

[ginger_johnson]: if I say okay, keep your hand raised or stay standing. If you’ll join me for

[ginger_johnson]: some raw octopus pizza. Like what happens? Most people sit down now. That

[ginger_johnson]: might seem slightly ridiculous and know I’m not going to serve that up,

[ginger_johnson]: because I don’t particularly care for octopus. But the point is that

[ginger_johnson]: objective is suspending judgment.

[ginger_johnson]: Open minded is a self prescribed. Yeah, I’m open mind ever is going to say

[ginger_johnson]: Theyre open minded. Well, what are you

[david_horsager]: y.

[ginger_johnson]: open to Is the qualifier If you’re objective, Your suspending judgment again

[ginger_johnson]: if you’re in that ▁zone, you literally can’t be judgmental. The objective is

[ginger_johnson]: the curious. In fact, a concept. I teach that some of my leaders absolutely

[ginger_johnson]: love is hypercurious, David. When we are hypercurious, that objectivity just

[ginger_johnson]: goes bonkers. Like whoh? there I go. The whole sandbox is mine because I

[ginger_johnson]: think. Oh, then what’s possible in this and you start to chase the chain of

[ginger_johnson]: the open ended journalistic questions. I call the pros and the who? What?

[ginger_johnson]: Why we wehow, And which? and then just like you and Lisa like, Oh, yeah, the

[ginger_johnson]: frame completely switches. The stuff is still there. yet that stuff is also

[ginger_johnson]: different, too. We inherently change the stuff because we change ourselves

[ginger_johnson]: so objective, suspending judgment. What’s really going on here? That’s what

[ginger_johnson]: objective is about?

[david_horsager]: hm. I love it, and we got the great seven questions. Okay, here we go, pa Pa

[david_horsager]: power with a w.

[ginger_johnson]: Oh,

[ginger_johnson]: While the number one trait desired by Boards for C, E Os is reliability,

[ginger_johnson]: reliability relies on willingness. Willing is the W. You’ve got to be

[ginger_johnson]: willing, David. I know you know that you’ve got to be willing to trust.

[ginger_johnson]: You’ve gotta be willing to connect. You’ve gotta be willing to walk through

[ginger_johnson]: that door or to get on the screen to do the thing to get to the. the, the

[ginger_johnson]: objectives, the goals, the accomplishments, to enjoy a great sunset with

[ginger_johnson]: family. Whatever that is,

[ginger_johnson]: that willingness is the the propulsion. I would say that iss the most

[ginger_johnson]: important piece of power when we are willing. We literally we are open.

[ginger_johnson]: Where our our physicality is open. our physiology is open, and we say all

[ginger_johnson]: right, this is what I chosen again, founded in the Y, and the mindset that

[ginger_johnson]: willingness really gets goes from from from momentum and traraction to

[ginger_johnson]: turning into a fly wheel, which that self

[david_horsager]: Hm.

[ginger_johnson]: perpetuation,

[david_horsager]: I love it. I love something you said a while ago. Connection happens one at

[david_horsager]: a time. Now we’ve got po, p. o w, positive. objective and willing. You’ve

[david_horsager]: given us so much in just twenty, Uh, some minutes. Boom, so let’s go here

[david_horsager]: because let’s get a little bit personal on. everybody has dinner parties.

[david_horsager]: Everybody’s trying to connect with people at home. You wrote a great article

[david_horsager]: on connection over dinner. and maybe that’s just with our own family. But

[david_horsager]: what are some ideas we got? There’s technology. there’s interruptions.

[david_horsager]: There’s this is one of the things My pet peeve is Actually people, not not

[david_horsager]: the people, but if people wear a smart watch and don’t have it shut off. You

[david_horsager]: know what I mean. Oh, I got to. Oh, I got Buz buzz buzz like I’ve got an old

[david_horsager]: fashioned one. but partly I, just that when every every time they jerk when

[david_horsager]: the their arm buzzes it, it just is like. Oh, my goodness, am I here or

[david_horsager]: what? So how do we do it in this new world? How do we kind of have? Give us

[david_horsager]: some tips for connecting over dinner?

[ginger_johnson]: Yeah, great question. First of all, I’m sure you’ve heard of you. Put the

[ginger_johnson]: the cell phone pile somewhere in the first one. like if you’re at a

[ginger_johnson]: restaurant, the first one who picks

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[ginger_johnson]: up has to pay. Okay if you’re going to do a punishment. Do something that

[ginger_johnson]: you really don’t want to do. It’s like Yeah, I Bt dinner for everybody. No,

[ginger_johnson]: No donate to something that you hate. Anyway, it hates us. You know what’m

[ginger_johnson]: saying? How

[david_horsager]: yeah, yeah,

[ginger_johnson]: do you? you set the premise, you set the tone. We’re only distracted if we

[ginger_johnson]: let ourselves be. So for example, your your team with the farmer company you

[ginger_johnson]: mentioned. There’s no

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: Shananagans once we’re getting into business, and this business happens to

[ginger_johnson]: have some very profound impacts, so don’t allow or let me rephrase that, so

[ginger_johnson]: as positive, set the bar, set the tone be the example for saying there is no

[ginger_johnson]: distraction. So put your things over there. put them in the other room.

[ginger_johnson]: whatever it is. Collect them. If you need to do that, then do that. Nobody’s

[ginger_johnson]: going to die if you’re not wearing your smart phone or your watch or

[ginger_johnson]: whatever those do, hickies are, we mean. You remember the days where you

[ginger_johnson]: still grab the phone from the wall, right like

[david_horsager]: I know,

[ginger_johnson]: we didn’t wonder

[david_horsager]: and

[ginger_johnson]: who ising while we’re all running errands. Um, so

[david_horsager]: exactly.

[ginger_johnson]: set one as the leader and a leader By the way is not position

[ginger_johnson]: descriptive. You can lead in every single way, shape or form age, make model

[ginger_johnson]: size, color position, whatever it is, Be the leader in your own mind, Say,

[ginger_johnson]: I’m not going to let myself get distracted. This is a choice, so I’m going

[ginger_johnson]: to do this if you are the leader. If you’re the organizer, then set that

[ginger_johnson]: tone of you know no cellphs. And you say it. it’s kind of like being on an

[ginger_johnson]: airplane, you, or leave your seat. Beelt fasted. Well, we all hear the

[ginger_johnson]: people uncicking And I always think. What are you trying to prove or why are

[ginger_johnson]: you doing that? Like what is that accomplished? It doesn’t accomplish

[ginger_johnson]: anything, so being

[ginger_johnson]: benevolent, being being a a kind leader and still being firm First of all,

[ginger_johnson]: when they know you’re serious, they will follow suit. You know this. that’s

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[ginger_johnson]: trust. That’s also stronger connection. Like okay, Well, David’s telling me

[ginger_johnson]: I have to do this and then all of a sudden what David’s given me is that is

[ginger_johnson]: that invite to say, Ginger. I want you here and this matters so I’m goingnna

[ginger_johnson]: help you be focused. So that’s one thing at at dinner parties. Like I just

[ginger_johnson]: gave the A board of directors at a Um, advanced Practitioner board retreat

[ginger_johnson]: before their board meeting and I had teeed up with those question. Some of

[ginger_johnson]: those questions. Why do I want them to intentionally talk about to get

[ginger_johnson]: different kinds of juices flowing so they connect with each other in a a new

[ginger_johnson]: more meaningful way? Once you start doing that as a habit as a pattern, then

[ginger_johnson]: it starts to take off by itself. And then hey, how about this pass the baton

[ginger_johnson]: once in a while. who is your right hand? Who’s another person that we rarely

[ginger_johnson]: hear from, which is a whole other conversation. For another time, there’s

[ginger_johnson]: different ways to make sure everybody contributes and participates in a way

[ginger_johnson]: that matters and is meaningful. So Passington, you know you said Ginger. I

[ginger_johnson]: want you to do this this time like. Oh, okay, Well, give me a couple guard

[ginger_johnson]: rails. You think okay, this is you. I’m trusting you. Go for it. Make it

[ginger_johnson]: yours Okay. when given the opportunity, I think Everybody listening, David.

[ginger_johnson]: I think you know this. I know I know this. When given the opportunity and

[ginger_johnson]: teeed up in a safe space with grace, everybody rises to the challenge.

[david_horsager]: Hm, Mhm, Hm,

[ginger_johnson]: That’s powerful.

[david_horsager]: I love it past the baton. Let

[ginger_johnson]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: people rise to the challenge. Let people lead love some of so that you can

[david_horsager]: use power right in the dinner party. All these

[david_horsager]: things work together, So wow, droping a lot here. Yes, go ahead,

[ginger_johnson]: y. absolutely. There’s

[ginger_johnson]: let me one little tiny proscript when you’re in those moments and you see it

[ginger_johnson]: going sideways Because it’s not always going to go forward When you see it

[ginger_johnson]: going sideways and the positively starts to you know. Detour to the

[ginger_johnson]: negative. Then it’s your responsibility to bring in bond back and what you

[ginger_johnson]: can do. A couple symbols, whether you watching or listening. Um, if you’re

[ginger_johnson]: watching, you can see this if you’re listening. Make your hands in the sign

[ginger_johnson]: of the Universal tea syndrome the time out,

[ginger_johnson]: and bring it on back yet. So if we’re talking and I start to go down a

[ginger_johnson]: rabbit trail, David, you can hold up. Make that tea symbol where your tips

[ginger_johnson]: of one hand hit the inside of the the middle of your other hand and say hang

[ginger_johnson]: on ginger. Now that thing you are talking about earlier, you can just get

[ginger_johnson]: rid of the stuff that started turning negative and go back to what the point

[ginger_johnson]: was or where

[david_horsager]: h.

[ginger_johnson]: the conversation really is going to flourish. you know, D. Ginger, when you

[ginger_johnson]: were talking about this thing, Uh, tell me more. tell me more. it’s a

[ginger_johnson]: phenomenal phrase.

[david_horsager]: mhm.

[ginger_johnson]: Tell me more about that. Let’s keep going on that

[ginger_johnson]: you can

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[ginger_johnson]: phys. You do that. I raise my hand if I’m in a room or I’m an interview or

[ginger_johnson]: something like that, and people like, Oh, Oh, you have something. So that’s

[ginger_johnson]: that’s like a kind interruption tactic too, cause all of a sudden people are

[ginger_johnson]: wondering. Should I be doing this? It just stops. pauses. It’s kind you’re

[ginger_johnson]: not being read like I used to be a radio host. I wish I could raised my hand

[ginger_johnson]: on the radio so those arequial tactics to help bring it on back more in that

[ginger_johnson]: vein of connection, trust, power and and progress,

[david_horsager]: loads of uh, just little tips. and with the phrase of tell me more and you

[david_horsager]: know

[david_horsager]: just

[david_horsager]: a lot here. I’ so grateful for you. Where can we find out more? You’ve got a

[david_horsager]: couple great books. We’re going to put all this in the show, Not trusted

[david_horsager]: Leader show Dot com.

[david_horsager]: Where where do you want us to come? Where can we connect with you? First?

[ginger_johnson]: So good, David. Thank you. I’m so honored to be here. Uh, Ginger Johnckson

[ginger_johnson]: Dot com. That was a joke for those who listening to earlier, Geninger

[ginger_johnson]: Johnson, dot Com is where the nexus is. You can go there. You can connect

[ginger_johnson]: with me. You can set up an appointment. If you’ve got a stage, you’re

[ginger_johnson]: looking to have somebody great. If David’s already been there. Go to him

[ginger_johnson]: first. If you’re looking for another great person, I’d love to be there. The

[ginger_johnson]: book is on there. It’s a brand new site working with your friends and mine

[ginger_johnson]: from video narrative, Um, and speaker real. Everything starts there. I’m

[david_horsager]: Yept, before I get to the final question. So Ginger Chason dot com, but the

[ginger_johnson]: very active on Linkton, Would love to hear from some leaders. What was

[ginger_johnson]: useful would love to find out from you. Ah, oh mighty listener. But that’s

[ginger_johnson]: that’s where it’s all going down the book and the whole nine yards.

[david_horsager]: final question before you get the final question. one more connection. Tip.

[david_horsager]: you can put from anything you’ve written or said, one. ▁ote statement or tip

[ginger_johnson]: Yes, I got it.

[ginger_johnson]: Watch your language, and this isn’t your eighth grade English teacher

[ginger_johnson]: telling you this. Go for the positive, One of the best piece of advice I’ve

[ginger_johnson]: ever gotten in my life. Jack Anderson from the Ace Hardware Corporation.

[ginger_johnson]: Interesting, his lasting startars with Andy is to use. and instead of butt,

[ginger_johnson]: replace your aunt, and you change your world. Andne is additive, but to

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[ginger_johnson]: subtractive, dismiss of discounting leaders. think about the end. It’s the

[ginger_johnson]: classic improv, Yes, and start with Anne, The Magic Vand is a life changer

[ginger_johnson]: challenge yourself. Have somebody you do this with any time somebody says,

[ginger_johnson]: But catch him. do a hand. Do some sort of something like. Oh right changes

[ginger_johnson]: everything.

[david_horsager]: Absolutely,

[david_horsager]: here we are

[ginger_johnson]: Okay

[david_horsager]: landing the plane that we could. we could fly to another. We could

[ginger_johnson]: or

[david_horsager]: fly to another city of connection. We could make another connection. Right,

[ginger_johnson]: yes’s, so many great people

[david_horsager]: this is not a connecting flight. We have to land this one final question.

[david_horsager]: Final question is’ the trusted leader Show, who’s the leader you trust And

[david_horsager]: why,

[ginger_johnson]: I’m going to pick to day from the whole army of people. I’m grateful to know

[ginger_johnson]: Terry Cardin, Terry Carton has started multiple businesses. She’s a software

[ginger_johnson]: engineer. She serves associations. I look at Cherry as a trusted leader

[ginger_johnson]: because she’s a hundred per cent real. Just like you were talking earlier.

[ginger_johnson]: She iss truly what Authentic says In the dictionary. She’s having fun. She’s

[ginger_johnson]: living in the life. She’s doing the thing she’s digging in. She never loses

[ginger_johnson]: her sense of humor. She always has her sense of empathy and humanity

[ginger_johnson]: and I, she’s so much fun to be with. I think that fun leaders are so

[ginger_johnson]: grounded, And so Terry is Terry’s leader. Absolutely trust, Ah, I adore and

[ginger_johnson]: I encourage anybody who wants to look at somebody like her to look her up

[ginger_johnson]: for sure.

[david_horsager]: Fantastic Ginger. thank you so much for being here. Thanks for being my

[david_horsager]: friend. That’s been the trusted leader Show this time until next time

[david_horsager]: stay trusted.

Ep. 75: Bob Stromberg on The Process To G.I.T. Creative

In this episode, we revisit David’s conversation with creativity expert Bob Stromberg where Bob discusses the process to G.I.T. creative.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Bob’s Bio:
Bob Stromberg delights audiences of all ages with his unique personal style of speaking, storytelling, and humor. His presentation is clean, casual, characterized by humility, and a healthy blend of knee-slapping comedy and encouragement.

In a word, Bob’s remarkable gift is his ability to interact with an audience, develop a warm rapport, gather people together, and facilitate surprising laughter with an arsenal of gifts including physical comedy, a non threatening touch of audience participation and yes…even hand shadows, which the London Metro described as “stunning”. Add to this hilarious, tender and thought-provoking stories from his own experience and audiences leave amazed and different than when they came.

Several surprises stand out in his long career. In 1995 he co-authored the hit play “Triple Espresso, (a highly caffeinated comedy)”. From its start in Minneapolis, Triple Espresso, described by the Los Angeles Times as “a triple jolt of inspired craziness” has been seen by over two million people in eighty cities from Seattle to London and, among many other honors, become the longest running stage production in the history of San Diego. In his role, the Chicago Sun Times described Bob as “a mesmerizing physical comedian”.

Bob followed that with his solo show That Wonder Boy, which Culture Buzz described as “One of the most substantive comical one-man shows ever conjured.” The show opened in several cities on its way to winning the three top awards, Off Broadway at United Solo Theatre Festival in New York City. That’s the largest solo theater festival in the world with over 700 shows applying and 150 chosen each year. That Wonder Boy returned to NYC four years later recognized as one of the top shows in the prestigious festival’s first decade.

For over forty years Bob utilized the power of creativity which lead to the creation of his online course “Mastering the Craft of Creativity”. He believes that we’re all made to create and through the course helps people to fill their own creative reservoir.

It’s also been his passion to advocate for impoverished children through the transformational work of Compassion International lifting one child at a time out of poverty. Compassion International gives children the one thing they need most, the one thing none of us can live without. They are given hope.

Bob lives in Minnesota with his wife Judy, occasionally perform his theater shows, and travels extensively as a featured comedian.

Bob’s Links:
Website: https://bobstromberg.com/

Key Quotes:
1. “Everything that I have created came from a place and through a process.”
2. “You need two words to really describe what creativity actually is: Gift and Craft.”
3. “You are not born creative.”
4. “We are all born with a desire and a capacity to experience creativity.”
5. “Creativity is not about finding the right answer, creativity is about trying many many potential answers.”
6. “You almost can’t fail with creativity because you’re not looking at the outcome, you’re looking at the process.”
7. “Creativity is a craft. Its a process that you go through.”
8. “People are not very emotionally alive.”
9. “We all have a resistance to this process.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Art & Fear” by David Bayles: https://amzn.to/32a1238
Triple Espresso: https://tripleespresso.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

Kent Svenson: Welcome to The Trusted Leader Show. I’m Kent Svenson, producer of The Trusted Leader Show. And for today’s episode we thought we would revisit a previous episode where David interviewed creativity expert Bob Stromberg.

Kent Svenson: In the episode, Bob shares his process to G.I.T. creative. So sit back and enjoy the show.

David Horsager: You’re also the author of mastering the craft of creativity and so people were going to have this in the show notes, but this is where I want to get to for leaders, today, you know, we have an expert.

David Horsager: In Bob stromberg at creativity and you can find out more mastering the craft of creativity.com we’ll have it all over the show notes at trusted leader show.com but tell us about this, how did you become so creative and give us a little window into that slice of your expertise.

Stromberg Robert: Five or six years ago.

Stromberg Robert: Well, it was September 15 of 2015 I was right here in the basement of this House digging through some boxes of books.

Stromberg Robert: and looking for some books and I found some old work calendars a pile of them about like this and the earliest one went back to 1975.

Stromberg Robert: And I thought to myself, I wonder what I was doing on Sep tember 15th 2015 40 years to the date earlier.

Stromberg Robert: And so I opened it up to 2015 I mean to to to 1975 which was 40 years earlier, and there was my first professional booking with my friend, Michael and I came upstairs I said to my wife Judy Judy This is like a celebration, I mean the anniversary we should be celebrating and she said.

Stromberg Robert: hmm.

Stromberg Robert: And that was the extent of the celebration right there that was.

Stromberg Robert: That was all there was, but that got me thinking when I realized Oh, my goodness, I have done this full time self employed never had a job never had an employer who paid thousands of them, but never, never an employer, that I was working for steadily.

Stromberg Robert: How have I done that, and I realized that I had been utilizing this thing called creativity and I also realized.

Stromberg Robert: I had never given a lot of thought to what it actually is and how it works and I started thinking about all these plays that I had written all recently i’ve been writing screenplays.

Stromberg Robert: And the comedy material and lots and lots of music that i’ve written through the years, all these creative things, what do they have in common, where did they come from, how did they come to be and I realized that.

Stromberg Robert: In this took this took a number of months of thinking about this really working through it, I realized that everything that I have created came from a place.

Stromberg Robert: And through a process and the place that the place that these things came from the songs the plays the comedy routines the bits the one liners.

Stromberg Robert: They came from what I call my creative reservoir which you have as well, and they came through a process and the process is called creativity and I believe that that there are two words, you need two words to really describe what creativity actually is.

Stromberg Robert: And I believe the two words are gift and craft usually we think of creativity, being a gift people say oh I couldn’t be creative my my brother was so crazy he really had a gift to creativity, but I just never had that.

Stromberg Robert: And I say, well, you you, you had something, because when you were a child, you demonstrated that here’s the deal.

Stromberg Robert: I really believe that the gift you’re born with something creativity, but you’re not born creative here’s what I think the gift is David.

Stromberg Robert: The gift that that we are all born with all of us is a a desire and a capacity to experience creativity, so we come out of the womb that way with a desire.

Stromberg Robert: and a capacity to experience it and we open up that gift immediately when we’re born, I mean the first thing that you within weeks you’re you’re learning that you can roll from I don’t know if it’s weeks I can’t remember it’s been so long since my kids my grandkids were that small.

David Horsager: would say it’s been so long since you roll over for the first time that’s right.

Stromberg Robert: But to roll from your back to your front boy that was exciting you couldn’t wait to do that it’s a little scary to do that, you can see, you can see the baby’s eyes just.

Stromberg Robert: Did I just do that that’s experiencing creativity getting up on your knees and rocking back and forth oh boy that’s one and then piling up blocks at some point, and then.

Stromberg Robert: knocking them over it all of this was play or or of taking that krahn and rubbing it across the paper making those marks on the paper was so fun, or is it was the case in my family with our four year old, who is who is now a remarkable artist and was then.

Stromberg Robert: To take that pink magic marker and coloring and all color and all the white flowers on mom and dad’s new couch that was an exciting.

Stromberg Robert: That was exciting day at our our family, all of this was what we refer to, and what psychologists call and child development people call play it was just play, but it was all creativity, it was all creative incredible.

Stromberg Robert: demonstration of creativity, so the question is well, where does that go because so many people say i’m not creative I couldn’t create anything I mean i’m i’m no idea what I would do I can’t create anything you know i’m just not a creative person.

Stromberg Robert: You used to be so where did it go and I believe.

Stromberg Robert: And I believe it gets educated right out of us in the western world, I think it’s just it’s just.

Stromberg Robert: The downside of our educational system, a lot of good things about our educational system, but not in this regard of creativity.

Stromberg Robert: Because in school, we learned very early on, when we’re taking a test or quiz or an exam, we have to write in the right.

Stromberg Robert: word in the fill in the blank it’s got to be the right word or if it’s a multiple choice, you have to you have to circle, the right answer, or if it’s a.

Stromberg Robert: math problem you have to add those numbers all up and divide it and do this and the high pot news of whatever and it’s got to be down to the.

Stromberg Robert: down to the right decimal point and number it’s got to be perfect and if it’s not it gets a big red mark on it and we deal with our feelings about about getting those red marks on our paper, and we very early realize.

Stromberg Robert: That we’re not as creative as we used to be, things are not as fun as they used to be creativity does not work that way creativity is not about finding the right answer.

Stromberg Robert: Creativity is about trying many, many potential answers some of them, which are really not good answers at all, but to try them.

Stromberg Robert: And something else comes out of it, you you almost can’t fail with creativity, because you’re not looking at the outcome you’re looking at the process so to to engage in the process, even if it’s.

Stromberg Robert: To try lots of things, in other words you don’t need to get the one right answer so therefore I think there’s another word this necessary gift, as the first one.

Stromberg Robert: I think the other word to describe what creativity is and how it works, then the other important word.

Stromberg Robert: Is craft creativity is a craft it’s a process that you go through, and as you go through this process you begin to this is a wonderful side benefit you begin to fill up your creative reservoir so there’s.

Stromberg Robert: there’s always something there you don’t need to worry about writer’s block you don’t need to worry about not being able, what am I going to do not it’s all you’ve got lots of stuff ready to go and but you need to understand what the process is.

Stromberg Robert: I heard recently about a sting who has been I just just before we did this interview, I thought, well, I wonder how many.

Stromberg Robert: How many grammys he’s one I went on he’s been nominated 43 times 42 or 43 times for grammys he’s won 17 one of the most popular singers songwriters in the world.

Stromberg Robert: About.

Stromberg Robert: A dozen years ago.

Stromberg Robert: He woke up one morning, and he couldn’t he couldn’t write it he couldn’t write a song he couldn’t write.

Stromberg Robert: And you go how’s that even possible I mean that’s what he does he writes songs he couldn’t write a song and this one on for eight years.

Stromberg Robert: Eight years couldn’t write it couldn’t write a song, can you imagine how devastating that was now we didn’t know that the public didn’t know that because he’s still touring.

Stromberg Robert: All the time he’s playing the songs we want to hear anyway, we don’t particularly want to hear a new song we’re happy to hear the old ones, the ones on the album’s we’ve been listened to it forever.

Stromberg Robert: But he couldn’t write a song and he was desperate and he said he described it this way, he said, I believe it was as if it was as if my muse went away.

Stromberg Robert: And I after going through all this work thinking through creativity for myself, I felt so sad about that because I thought staying.

Stromberg Robert: there’s no there’s no muse there’s there’s no muse you don’t you don’t have a muse you’d you have a process that you had been doing for years, and you don’t understand what the process is, if you understood what the process is you’d be writing a song right away and here’s what he did.

Stromberg Robert: Well, he didn’t know what to do, but here’s what happened to him.

Stromberg Robert: He.

Stromberg Robert: In his mind began to think about growing up in new Castle, and the UK shipbuilding town and he remembered the way.

Stromberg Robert: The old fisherman and the old shipbuilders excuse me, the way they used to talk and he heard their dialect in his head.

Stromberg Robert: And it later occurred to him that he’d never ever written a song in the dialect of these shipbuilders never even occurred to him to do to do that.

Stromberg Robert: But he heard the dialect and heard particular phrases that they would say, for example, one day you’ll wear these dead man’s boots.

Stromberg Robert: that’s what fathers would say to their sons, in other words you’re going to do the same work that I did you know so and he would.

Stromberg Robert: someday we’re these dead man’s roots and he started this and he got a little tune he didn’t consider writing a song, it was just a little ditty in his head little sea shanty kind of thing about wearing these dead man’s boots.

Stromberg Robert: And he wrote it and then he had another phrase in that dialect and he wrote another.

Stromberg Robert: Another little little sea shanty kind of thing in that, and he began to collect them and then he started thinking.

Stromberg Robert: I wonder if I could put them together in some way, I wonder who would sing the song, I wonder if there are characters who would sing them to each other, it eventually ended up being his West end and broadway musical call called the last ship now here Dave here Dave is the important thing.

Stromberg Robert: without knowing it, I believe that sting.

Stromberg Robert: used the creative process that I realized that i’ve been using and everything that I ever wrote and here’s the way it works, there are three things I say you may not, you may not have a.

Stromberg Robert: You may not feel you have a creative spirit or you may not feel that you have a creative reservoir, but you can get one.

Stromberg Robert: didn’t say get I said get gee I T first step in the creative process you grab anything that grabs you emotionally.

Stromberg Robert: So as you’re going through your day, and these are not ideas that you’re grabbing you can’t if.

Stromberg Robert: The eye that’s not how ideas happen the ideas aren’t just waiting out there for you to take them, you have to.

Stromberg Robert: You have to find them, and so you grab you’re not grabbing ideas you’re grabbing thoughts.

Stromberg Robert: So, as you go through your day you remember something you see something something happens in the market, this little kid at the kid in the stroller in the market.

Stromberg Robert: drops a sucker on the floor his mom says something oh boy, that was a little bit harsh or oh boy you write it down, it can be anything that grabs you emotionally things that make you that delight you things that may be upset you things that.

Stromberg Robert: things that make you wonder.

Stromberg Robert: you write them down that’s what it means to grab now when I say write them down, you can speak them into your phone, but you have a file form, you make sure you have somewhere where you can put these.

Stromberg Robert: thoughts they’re not ideas you have no, you have no idea what they could possibly be it’s just a thought and there’s a resistance to doing this because.

Stromberg Robert: People go, why would I write that down it’s not even any it’s just it’s nothing, why would I write it down because the the process that’s just the beginning of the process.

Stromberg Robert: The second thing is, then you go back each day and you look at that list of things that you’ve grabbed and you begin to interrogate them.

Stromberg Robert: If you have if you end up with 20 or 30 things on your grab list and that’ll happen pretty quickly, by the way you begin to as you go through this process you actually begin to to wake up.

Stromberg Robert: Emotionally i’ve had people say to me when they start the exercises in my course mastering the crash creativity, they say why I didn’t grab anything today nothing, nothing grabbed me emotionally, so I didn’t grab it.

Stromberg Robert: I said well keep trying, because I just know that people are not very emotionally alive they’re not in touch with their own emotions.

Stromberg Robert: they’re walking past stuff they’re not looking they’re not observing and then, as you begin to grab it gets easier and easier, in fact, it becomes habitual.

Stromberg Robert: And you’re grabbing things left and right all the time and again, sometimes I grab stuff and I go, you know my I got reams of things now and I go Why am I still doing this well because, as you go back then you interrogate what you grab that’s the eye.

David Horsager: You grab manager, do you use this paper, do you journal it you put it in your phone, how do you how do you grab it like when you’re out and about what’s your little file system.

Stromberg Robert: And I grabbed I grabbed on paper for years, I think, originally it was just anything I could grab but I was just grabbing anything and then pile them in a box and then it was in then it was in a little.

Stromberg Robert: You know I remember getting nice little leather books, at one point, you know.

Stromberg Robert: And it would be some of it would be grabbing others, it would be notes and stuff but then recently in the last actually since I started working on this seven or eight years ago.

Stromberg Robert: i’ve been grabbing on my phone, I just have a file, I have a grab file, I have to actually and I just I just speak them in there it’s just enough to remember what what grabbed you that’s all it’s not usually usually it’s a sentence fragment that you’re grabbing we.

David Horsager: I just it ties back to you know just.

David Horsager: Briefly, someone else that we had on the show that we talked about the value of journaling and how that’s one of the top things to do, and so, in essence.

David Horsager: This is a part of amping up your creativity and and if you if you want to be more creative and everybody, I mean this this really and more innovative.

David Horsager: You got to go to the whole course mastering the craft of creativity calm, but we’re getting a good look behind the kimono here we’re getting we’re getting the get right here, right now, at least.

David Horsager: A good overview and there’s a whole lot more in the whole course but.

David Horsager: He was talking about journaling just the process of journaling you ideas start to come to you start thinking about me start remembering and even on your own without interrogating that night let’s say.

David Horsager: your mind starts to interrogate it starts to build the muscle of interrogating on its own, it seems.

Stromberg Robert: If you if you develop it if you develop a.

Stromberg Robert: habit which, as you know, I mean they always say it takes 21 days to create a habit so it’s three weeks, the truth is, it takes more like two or three months.

Stromberg Robert: You actually can create an A neural pathway in 21 days and it’s it’s there you could you could see it apparently or measure it in some way.

Stromberg Robert: But it’s not very strong and it won’t help you very much, unless you do it for up to two or three months repeat the cycle 234 times.

Stromberg Robert: And then it’s there and it’s working all by itself and that’s where you get people in the middle of the night saying I wrote this song.

Stromberg Robert: I mean it’s like God gave me the song because I just woke up with it well, well, maybe God did give you the song, but he gave it through your through this marvelous thing called your brain and your mind which works, the way that it does so, I just wanted.

Stromberg Robert: If I continue real quickly you you interrogate.

Stromberg Robert: What you grab when you go back to your list, and you look at it so maybe got 2030 things here unless you just kind of read down through them and one or two of them will pop right out at you like oh pay attention to me pay attention to me.

Stromberg Robert: And you go well, what are you, how could I use, you are you an illustration, are you a new kernel of truth for my ad campaign are.

Stromberg Robert: Are you a new marketing plan are you a painting, are you a new chapter in my book, are you a character in my book, what what are you and.

Stromberg Robert: and, eventually, then you have it sounds like a cliche but it’s absolutely true, and every artist every creative knows this.

Stromberg Robert: You have that Aha moment where you go.

Stromberg Robert: There it is there, it is now sometimes this can happen in in three minutes you know this day but it’s like.

Stromberg Robert: It just there I got it this thing happened and I knew exactly I needed I needed that application or that illustration tonight.

Stromberg Robert: And I got it today and I wasn’t even looking for just boom there, it was so it can happen really quickly or it might take 20 years.

Stromberg Robert: I mean literally 20 I have a I have a piece, now that I do on my show where you’ve seen my family pictures thing.

Stromberg Robert: It took me 20 years of that on my list of going down well, maybe someday I cannot figure out what to do with those family pictures and it became this this hysterical routine now.

Stromberg Robert: So, then you grab you interrogate you have that Aha moment, and then you go now I know what it is and you begin to transform it into what it should be that’s what sting did.

Stromberg Robert: He he was grabbed emotionally by memories of his boyhood and anybody our age.

Stromberg Robert: Your age, I know you’re younger than I am, but anybody our ages knows memories of boyhood when they hit you those are powerful emotionally.

Stromberg Robert: And he you know his mom and dad both of them are gone now, but he remembered them he remembered the dead man’s boots he remembered his girlfriend he remember these things.

Stromberg Robert: And he began to grab those and then say what could I do with you what could this is this is this a song Is this a an album is this wow could this be a broadway play.

Stromberg Robert: And and a musical and then he began to transform it into that now how long does it take to from beginning to end, it can be really quick, it can be.

Stromberg Robert: An hour and you got it can be half an hour and you’ve written a song and you could actually be singing it in half an hour, if you want to.

Stromberg Robert: But other things if it’s a new medical device, or if it’s a broadway play it’s going to take years and years and years to develop it to the point where where you can put it on stage so or produce it.

David Horsager: I love it talk more, you know that this is great everybody’s got grab interrogate transform there’s a process for creativity, we can all get better at creativity.

David Horsager: we’ve been maybe a lot of it’s been hammered away because of if we’re listening from the US, right now, from the American.

David Horsager: educational system and actually many others around the world, I mean this educational system came about because of the industrial age right it’s like boom boom boom we do it this way.

David Horsager: But um let’s there is a discipline, it seems to the way you develop routines and and and kind of you know, be consistently creative and I think this is a process for it, but is there anything else you do as a disciplined approach to being creative or to building a.

David Horsager: screenplay.

Stromberg Robert: well.

Stromberg Robert: This is where there are a lot of books like art and fear press feels book.

Stromberg Robert: That is it’s great to read some of these books, because there is a there’s a resist we all have a resistance to this process.

Stromberg Robert: Fears a big part of it, and again I don’t know if this is, if this is part of our of our Western culture or not, I think probably is but we we we all become very.

Stromberg Robert: We look at the.

Stromberg Robert: The outcome we look at the outcome of what of what we’re doing.

Stromberg Robert: That that seems to make sense, a lot of times when you’re thinking about business things where you got to look well, what are you putting in this and what do you hope to get out of this.

Stromberg Robert: But with creativity there’s never any guarantee of.

Stromberg Robert: Certainly, an art there’s never any guarantee that any any of this is going to work and it just there’s no guarantee not.

David Horsager: You have self in that, how do you how do you trust yourself enough to keep at it.

Stromberg Robert: Well, as you have some success, then you you begin to build upon that success, so you look back and I, I know I wrote that wonderboy after we wrote.

Stromberg Robert: bill Arnold and Michael fierstein when I wrote triple Espresso.

Stromberg Robert: I had never written a play before at that point, I hadn’t even been in a play before just always done, the done the solo thing or the the wet stuff with my partner, I had that I started out with.

Stromberg Robert: So i’ve been on stage a lot, but I never been in a play never written anything like that I went to see Michael pure Stanley in forever Plaid back in 1990 and he’d already been in that show.

Stromberg Robert: For two years, or three years, at that point he doing it seven times a week downtown minneapolis and my wife and I went to see him do that I just thought it was great.

Stromberg Robert: And we went out to eat afterwards and my wife and I, and she said to me, you could write something better than that.

Stromberg Robert: Well, the next more and I will yeah what would I do with it, if we How would, I have no idea how to how would you produce it Where would you put it, how would How would you get anybody to come if you did, and what would it be anyway.

Stromberg Robert: I went out to eat with have breakfast with Michael pierce Donnelly and and bill Arnold who I had met in Chicago.

Stromberg Robert: We are on a stage together they’re at a big Convention and I thought he was one of the funniest people he’s a he’s a comic magician as as you were and and.

Stromberg Robert: Maybe still are sometimes David.

David Horsager: know.

David Horsager: long time ago.

David Horsager: The big jam button here is yeah yeah I used to use it to see people for a living now you talk about trust right.


Stromberg Robert: But but.

David Horsager: People don’t even know I ever did that.

Stromberg Robert: But i’ll bet you saw bill at some point didn’t yeah I mean even before triple stress or not.

David Horsager: Oh yeah.

David Horsager: And they’re amazing all three of you, I mean that’s.

David Horsager: that’s something that made that trio, you know of triple Espresso just I mean from what Dublin to across the US, I mean it was just.

David Horsager: All three of you so talented and so funny in different ways, but together, I mean you know people talk about that laughing and there’s people that go every year to that.

David Horsager: You know the same show it’s just a you know it’s.

Stromberg Robert: yeah people have been 4050 times it’s amazing they and they want to see the same stuff over no please don’t change anything.

Stromberg Robert: But we went out to eat breakfast and one, and I know I shared about my wife saying we could write something better, or I could write something better.

Stromberg Robert: And and Michael said, well, maybe we should and bill said well i’ll make a call see if I can get anybody who would be interested in having us come and do it well, he he called then.

Stromberg Robert: He gave me a call within a day or two and said i’ve got a booked for for next month when next month.

Stromberg Robert: The third, well, it was like 30 days away and we hadn’t written anything so we just got together and said Okay, well, we have to do this and as it turned out.

Stromberg Robert: 600 people came to that first show at up for a family united church 600 people came.

Stromberg Robert: And we had a we had about an hour show that we have put together and we threw away, about half of it.

Stromberg Robert: Literally half of it, but we kept some nuggets that seemed to work and we kept working on it for another few months and then that led to some other things and somebody said, would you like to come do it on theater.

Stromberg Robert: And it just took off like wildfire flower wild flowers took off like wildfire took off like wild fire and.

Stromberg Robert: We thought we were we got this opportunity to do it for six weeks at a theaters seven times seven or eight times a week, we were going to do it.

Stromberg Robert: And I remember thinking well, that means I can’t work anywhere else for for six weeks we’ll probably going to lose a lot of money on this well.

Stromberg Robert: It took off David it, it was we had people lined up down the street, to get tickets from almost from the from the first week on.

Stromberg Robert: And then it went to San Diego and then we got another cast we kept two cities going and then at one point, there were seven cities gone and then we went to Dublin, we went to the UK we went to the West end of London.

Stromberg Robert: And it went to you know at some cities now it’s been in over 25 years.

Stromberg Robert: It ran it ran without missing a date without missing a week in San Diego for 11 years, I think it was 13 years here without stopping and minneapolis it was a phenomenon, now the reason i’m telling you the story is.

Stromberg Robert: You said, how do you how do you keep, how do you keep doing what you’re doing with are no guarantees and and I think.

Stromberg Robert: You build upon the success, but I did I did that wonderboy thinking well gee I could write another play, and this is going to just take off and go crazy again.

Stromberg Robert: that’s what it felt like to me, I know I can do this, I did it once i’ll do it again and I realized well triple Espresso was a phenomenon, it was truly a phenomenon.

Stromberg Robert: it’s not something that’s going to happen very meant to very many people in a in a generation it’s just one of those very, very odd things are the right right time right place and so on, but.

Stromberg Robert: I had great sexual.

Stromberg Robert: success.

Stromberg Robert: I had great success with.

Stromberg Robert: I had great success with that wonderboy but it wasn’t the same kind of success.

Stromberg Robert: But, but it was it was wonderful nonetheless it just didn’t have I mean.

Stromberg Robert: Yet oh yeah it was it was fantastic in New York and won some big awards there, which was pretty exciting yeah but it wasn’t it didn’t make it didn’t make any money, so if the idea is i’m going to do this, so that I can make some money, and this is going to well, maybe, maybe not.

Stromberg Robert: And there’s no other way to, but if you’re looking at the outcome it’s it’s it’s kind of tough you you’ll you’ll quit pretty quickly, because there are too many reasons to.

Stromberg Robert: not do it there too many reasons to not invest in the creative process because it takes time it takes work, some of it, some of it’s difficult tough.

Stromberg Robert: Work collaboration, for example, if you’re being creative with other people.

Stromberg Robert: boy some collaborations are so fun and they’re just great and other collaborations like oh I can’t believe i’m I have to work with her and again, you know it’s just like I this is going to be tough, but you have you know you you do it because that’s the process.

David Horsager: I think that’s a unique unique trait of you, compared to many you are phenomenal success on your own, and I saw you first most of the time on your own I didn’t see way back to the Cooper times I mean you were.

David Horsager: You had an amazing solo act event show, and yet you’ve collaborated with others to make some this runaway success triple Espresso this even your first 12 years with Mr Cooper whatever so.

Stromberg Robert: yeah I think.

David Horsager: that’s an interesting.

Kent Svenson: That’s it for this week’s episode. Be sure to check out trustedleadershow.com for all the show notes with all the links and information from anything mentioned in today’s episode.

Kent Svenson: And if you haven’t already, we would greatly appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts. This is a great way to help support the show and to help other people to discover it.

Kent Svenson: But, that’s it for this week’s episode, thank you so much for listening, and until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 74: Jason Hewlett on The Power Of The Promise

In this episode, David sits down with Jason Hewlett, Leadership Expert, Author, and Hall of Fame Speaker, to discuss the power of The Promise.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Jason’s Bio:
Having delivered thousands of presentations over 2 decades, Jason Hewlett is the only speaker in the world teaching leadership in a performance of uncanny musical and comedy impressions, utilizing the legends of stage. “The Promise” is a keynote speech that feels like a show, with proven processes and immediately implementable takeaways to transform your business and leadership skills.

Jason is the author of the Facebook post entitled, “I Saw My Wife at Target Today”, which has been seen by more than 100 million people. A recent, and one of the youngest inductees in the prestigious Speaker Hall of Fame, his talks inspire leadership from the perspective of a Promise, while giving attendees an engaging, entertaining, and educational experience all in one.

Jason’s Links:
Website: https://jasonhewlett.com/
“The Promise Of The One” by Jason Hewlett: https://amzn.to/3IXq2OB
Jason’s Blog: https://jasonhewlett.com/blog/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonhewlett/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jasonhewlettentertainer/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jasonhewlett/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jasonrhewlett
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jason.hewlett

Key Quotes:
1. “Every leader has signature moves.”
2. “A promise is essentially whatever you say you’re going to do and you do.”
3. “How do you stand out in a sit down world?”
4. “A promise is the highest level of engagement we commit to any experience.”
5. “When we set a goal it’s a deadline but when we make a promise it becomes a behavior.”
6. “Goals are particulars. Promises are proclamations.”
7. “There are people that do incredible things each and every day.”
8. “If we’re incongruent it will be noticed because our integrity is our harmony.”
9. “We can become a great leader.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“The Promise Of The One” by Jason Hewlett: https://amzn.to/3IXq2OB
Jason’s Blog: https://jasonhewlett.com/blog/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

[david_horsager]: Welcome, too, the trusted leader showed David Horsager, I have a special

[david_horsager]: guest and a friend. He’s one of the funniest guys I know, but more than that

[david_horsager]: he’s one of the kindest Uh. he’s great on stage, but he’s great off stage.

[david_horsager]: He’s a leader of his family and uh, in just a whole lot of other ways’,

[david_horsager]: written a great book. He’s got a great message that is relevant to everyone.

[david_horsager]: We’ going to talk about a little bit. Please welcome my friend Jason

[david_horsager]: Hewlett,

[jason_hewlett]: Hey, hey, thanks for having me, brother.

[david_horsager]: Jason,

[david_horsager]: Jason, Hey, you’re coming to us from Salt Lake City area, Utah. Uh, at your

[david_horsager]: home studio today and I’m grateful for that. You were one of the youngest

[david_horsager]: inducted. I think you might unsated me, but into the speaker hall of fame

[david_horsager]: you are. Uh, you know, you’ve been on the the Las Vegas strip as one of the

[david_horsager]: greatest entertainers and I think you are the funniest speaker I know, but

[david_horsager]: you have a solid, clear, powerful message. You’ve worked. Do a lot of work

[david_horsager]: with millionaires and billionaires. Give us just the quick background on

[david_horsager]: Jason. What’s the two minute that we don’t know

[jason_hewlett]: Well, first of all, what a pleasure to be here. I love this podcast Was

[jason_hewlett]: telling you how many episodes I’ve enjoyed lately with all of our friends and

[jason_hewlett]: tell you started my career in Las Vegas. Yes, as an impersonator I was

[jason_hewlett]: impersonated of Ricky Martin and Elton John in the same Legends and concert

[jason_hewlett]: show, So I got to impersonate you living in Avia Lua, Then I’m jumping into

[jason_hewlett]: the Eton John outfit and go,

[jason_hewlett]: Ma, so, and swans for you. So I figured out really quickly not only do those

[jason_hewlett]: people have signature moves that make them unique, but that I also had a

[jason_hewlett]: signature move for doing voices making people laugh, and created a career out

[jason_hewlett]: of that over twenty years ago, and through the process of discovering how to

[jason_hewlett]: find the essence of a person helped me also to realze. Every leader has

[jason_hewlett]: signature moves, and so how do we discover that, And that becomes our promise

[jason_hewlett]: to share it with the world, and so as a performer after dinner entertainer,

[jason_hewlett]: Those types of things for corporate events. I have performed in every casino

[jason_hewlett]: in Las Vegas and equally have transition from entertain after dinner to early

[jason_hewlett]: morning keynote speaker, fighting the slot with David Horsersgger,

[jason_hewlett]: and, and never winning, Because you’re always the one that takes the gig, But

[jason_hewlett]: I’ll tell you what, I’m a very happy, sloppy second for any client that wants

[jason_hewlett]: me.

[david_horsager]: you’? It’s amazing you know your work alligns with all that we do out of the

[david_horsager]: trustege leadership. inste your your message. Now the promise I want to get

[david_horsager]: into that. but before we do I didn’ ask for this ahead of time. And you know

[david_horsager]: what, it’s not going to do a justice when. If people are just listening and

[david_horsager]: not seeing you, you probably can’t do some of the moves you do with your

[david_horsager]: face that are unbelievable. But what? What’s a couple more impersonations?

[david_horsager]: you can give us to start out. Uh, before you get into even more the valuable

[david_horsager]: content.

[jason_hewlett]: Yeah, you know when I was a kid, finding out I could do voices that was a big

[jason_hewlett]: deal, like Uh, Py, Herman was a big one when you and I were kids, you know,

[jason_hewlett]: it was like

[jason_hewlett]: anybody,

[jason_hewlett]: and that’s obviously not allowed to do any morere in public. But then I

[jason_hewlett]: realized I could do Alvin and the Chipmunks masc, mouth, townow, Ma, you

[jason_hewlett]: know, and then I’m doing Louis Armstrong, and I think dema say I don’t want

[jason_hewlett]: there forward. Birr and I found out I could do funny things with my face for

[jason_hewlett]: the people that are going to view this online. But I found out that when I

[jason_hewlett]: practice those things, it made people laugh, even if even if they said it was

[jason_hewlett]: weird or ugly or bizarre, the laugh is what we leaned into. and so the next

[jason_hewlett]: thing I knew, I became known as the kid that spread joy, and that’s become my

[jason_hewlett]: life. Promise.

[david_horsager]: And you know,

[david_horsager]: Speaking of that you, you’re really good at self depreating humor.

[david_horsager]: It’s just it’s not you know. bringing everybody else down, Really bring

[david_horsager]: everybody else up. So let’s get to the promise you know you. You’ve done all

[david_horsager]: this work in the promise you written on the prompt to get the proms. Now,

[david_horsager]: what? what’s the promise? What? what’s the brief? What’s that mean?

[jason_hewlett]: Yeah, I speak about promises, and I just ask the audience. You know what is a

[jason_hewlett]: promise to you, promises, essentially whatever you say you’re going to do,

[jason_hewlett]: and you do, and all these sales meetings that I go to in leadership where

[jason_hewlett]: they’re talking about goal setting and I love goals. I’ve said goals my whole

[jason_hewlett]: life, but I noticed a while back that if I said a go and I missed it, I just

[jason_hewlett]: set another one And so I say, Why set a goal and we can make a promise.

[jason_hewlett]: Because if you said a goal and you miss, you just said another one. But if

[jason_hewlett]: you make a promise and break it, that’s a one and done. So what are the

[jason_hewlett]: sacred goals? That are your promises, the non negotiables, the intangibles,

[jason_hewlett]: the hundred percent accountables. And so, I just say that there’s three

[jason_hewlett]: elements to the promise. The first is our audience, because we’re all

[jason_hewlett]: performers. Those are our clients or customers, And then there’s a promise to

[jason_hewlett]: our family, which is the family at work, in the family at home, and the final

[jason_hewlett]: one is the promise to the one, which is my book. The promise to the one is

[jason_hewlett]: yourself, and so I just say.

[jason_hewlett]: Well, you know you could, said a promiseed to your boss or or, or make a

[jason_hewlett]: promise to the customer. But what about the promises we make and break to

[jason_hewlett]: ourselves, And so writing a book about that first really established the

[jason_hewlett]: promise itself.

[david_horsager]: Absolutely? and you talk about speaking of promises and processes, You talk

[david_horsager]: about this. I c. M process Under the promise. Tell us about that. maybe with

[david_horsager]: what’s identity?

[jason_hewlett]: Yeah, so I see M when I, when I talk about S discovering your signature moves

[jason_hewlett]: or your personal brand. That, which makes you who you are, because as you

[jason_hewlett]: knows, we just talked about, I am an ex spurt at pulling out the essence of a

[jason_hewlett]: human in order to impersonate them, and so finding out that everybody has

[jason_hewlett]: those skills, and so forth, I was fascinated David. the first time I stood in

[jason_hewlett]: front of a group of leaders, very successful men and I said, Hey, what’s your

[jason_hewlett]: signature move? What makes you stand out in a sit down world And they were

[jason_hewlett]: like dear in headlights, And I said you guys don’t know. It makes you unique.

[jason_hewlett]: How are you a great leader and how can you help others discover that too? And

[jason_hewlett]: so we came up with the process called the I M process. To discover it. I see,

[jason_hewlett]: Em, stands for identify. Clarify, Magnify. And so we a, just sit down and I

[jason_hewlett]: really force these guys to do a challenging process, which is to just write

[jason_hewlett]: good things about yourself. Write what you identify you’re good at, And you

[jason_hewlett]: know, if I were to say Hey, right down, five things are good at. They have a

[jason_hewlett]: problem with that. That’s hard, but if I say right down five things you can

[jason_hewlett]: improve, they’re like. Oh, I got twenty simple. So I, I flip the script and

[jason_hewlett]: say, let’s try to write down a hundred

[jason_hewlett]: things that we are naturally good at have become our skill set even

[jason_hewlett]: aspirationally, and once they’ve identified as many as they can, we unpack

[jason_hewlett]: those and it comes up with a cool identified list for the person that’s going

[jason_hewlett]: through the process, Clarifies when you bring in other people, and that’s a

[jason_hewlett]: fun

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: one. A, because,

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[jason_hewlett]: then you’re asking people you trust They clarify for you what they see in

[jason_hewlett]: you. That makes you great. You don’t even see the signature moves that they

[jason_hewlett]: see in you, And so like

[david_horsager]: Absolutely,

[jason_hewlett]: I might say to M, You know, in my identified list I might identify am a funny

[jason_hewlett]: guy, but you, David might say to me, Dude, you’re not funny. You’re freaking

[jason_hewlett]: hilarious and I’m like, Oh, I like the clarification word that you gave me

[jason_hewlett]: better, so I’ll lean into that that I’m hilarious. Okay, I love that, and

[jason_hewlett]: then I can magnify this whole process by going out and working on each of

[jason_hewlett]: those traits that I come up with as my top ten or twenty. and it changes my

[jason_hewlett]: life the way that I bring my promised proclamation and everything I do. It’s

[jason_hewlett]: a really cool process

[david_horsager]: it’s a really cool process. I think the interesting thing about that clarify

[david_horsager]: before you magnify as often we don’t see. We think everybody is good at the

[david_horsager]: thing that we’re naturally good at. We think. Oh, that’s easy for everybody.

[david_horsager]: I bet. so that’s not really unique. And yet that thing can be very unique

[david_horsager]: and others see it in us often before we might see it in ourselves. So I.

[jason_hewlett]: so well said perfect. Yeah, and and you know it’s a S. It’s a superpow that

[jason_hewlett]: we don’t even even recognize in ourselves that we have another. see us do it.

[jason_hewlett]: and we’re They’re like, Dude, You need to do that every time and you’re like.

[jason_hewlett]: I just naturally do that. I don’t know why you think it’s so special, but it

[jason_hewlett]: truly is and that’s what makes us awesome.

[david_horsager]: yeah, So this promsed proclamation. Tell me about some pe. Give us a little

[david_horsager]: more clarity to it and then I want to ask some examples of people that have

[david_horsager]: really made a promise and kept it. What have you seen out there when you’

[david_horsager]: help people do it, or what have you seen or ones that you have made? But

[david_horsager]: first give us a little more clarity that promised proclamation.

[jason_hewlett]: Yeah, so when it comes to the magnification portion, that is where the

[jason_hewlett]: promise comes into it. So if there are words such as my wife gave me the word

[jason_hewlett]: thoughtful, you’re thoughtful and I was like. I didn’t know I was thoughtful.

[jason_hewlett]: I didn’t think enough to know I was thoughtful and I thought I’m going to now

[jason_hewlett]: proclaim that is part of my promise. And so how can I be thoughtful in every

[jason_hewlett]: dealing with every client? How can I be thoughtful with my children? How can

[jason_hewlett]: I be thoughtful even with myself? And so now I’m a little bit more

[jason_hewlett]: accountable to the things and the actions that I do. It changes

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: the way that we live every single day how we interact with our customers. And

[jason_hewlett]: that’s why I like to say that A a promise is the highest level of engagement

[jason_hewlett]: we commit to in any experience. Because I don’t care about the goals you, you

[jason_hewlett]: know, you set.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: I. I care about the promises you make and keep and so keep a promise with me

[jason_hewlett]: When it comes to M, magnifying that I just say, what are the proclamations

[jason_hewlett]: you want to have in your life? And eventually we can come up with a a

[jason_hewlett]: proclamation that leads everything. So for me it’s been. I promise to spread

[jason_hewlett]: joy in every interaction. And so if

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: I’m at a restaurant and the waitress walks up and hands me some food, I’m

[jason_hewlett]: going to say something that will bring her joy, whether it’s complimenting

[jason_hewlett]: her uh, efforts, or do something silly with my face,

[jason_hewlett]: you know, or maybe be like. What’s in this drink. It just ruined my voice,

[jason_hewlett]: you know, and then they laugh. But I am spreading joy wherever I go, and that

[jason_hewlett]: becomes a promise I could easily hide that all day it’s it’s

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: easier to just lay back. Keep it in a drawer, but when we can share and

[jason_hewlett]: magnify that promise, it makes a big difference. and seeing that you know you

[jason_hewlett]: asked the question, How’s this helped other people

[jason_hewlett]: as they’ve magnified their promises. Well, it’s been amazing to watch people

[jason_hewlett]: who have struggled with weight loss, for example, when they have all these

[jason_hewlett]: resolutions and goals, you know, here we are recording this and the end of

[jason_hewlett]: January, but think about it, My goodness. the ▁jyim was busy the first week.

[jason_hewlett]: I went this morning in middle of January and I’m like, Where is everybody?

[jason_hewlett]: You slackers go on me. But then I thought you know what. It’s because we had

[jason_hewlett]: a goal set that didn’t get hit. And when we set a goal it’s a deadline. But

[jason_hewlett]: we make a promise. It becomes a behavior becomes something

[david_horsager]: Hm it,

[jason_hewlett]: we are. And so you know, we can make a promise and and do something unique,

[jason_hewlett]: And so, watching people that say, I’m going to make a promise to get healthy

[jason_hewlett]: this year. What? what is healthy look like? Well, that’s when you set the

[jason_hewlett]: goals. Goals are particulars, promises or proclamations. So what are the?

[jason_hewlett]: what are the goals? The little goals that need to be accomplished each day in

[jason_hewlett]: order to come up with your promised proclamation. To be healthy.

[david_horsager]: Hm, I. You know people have heard this before and you know a big challenge

[david_horsager]: for me is just sta fit. And so it’s a good example. So T you know twenty

[david_horsager]: eleven, Uh, I, I said, uh, I’m gonna get to my high school. Wait, or I’ll

[david_horsager]: give you to. This was to my staff twenty five hundred bucks each, and that

[david_horsager]: was a big deal. Even bigger deal than when I have you know. it’s a. uh. I

[david_horsager]: knew it was a big deal. My wife is like. What are you talking about and she

[david_horsager]: knows Um, like responsibility is a big deal for me. If I say something, I’ll

[david_horsager]: do it, and now I’ve I’ve done this with other people and they haven’t got

[david_horsager]: the promise, but I know if no matter what if I’m not at that weight, I’ll

[david_horsager]: give out the twenty five hundred dollars or I’ll have lost the weight Li.

[david_horsager]: I’ll keep the promise one way or the other, and I was a big motivator for me

[david_horsager]: and that they. I mean, I was like. You know, That’s fifty pounds or whatever

[david_horsager]: it. it. It was like ha. at the very end it was like three pounds under. and

[david_horsager]: I’m like, Oh, you know, but I would. I was aware. I would have not eaten the

[david_horsager]: last week if I had to, I think, but, but, um, but it was a. It was it. It

[david_horsager]: mattered for me, but it kept kept me focused. That the the commitment, the

[david_horsager]: prompt, there is something about saying that rather than and I just kind of

[david_horsager]: have this go. Hey, I’m committed. I’m promising and for me I’m promising.

[david_horsager]: I’ll give you something I don’t want to give. Um if I’m not at this at this

[david_horsager]: weight. One of the things we we talk about with trust too is how do you? How

[david_horsager]: do you rebuild trust? How do you rebuild trust once you’ve lost, and one

[david_horsager]: thing we found is you never rebuild it on the apology you, you never rebuild

[david_horsager]: trust by K. By apologizing that doesn’t mean don’t apologize. That certainly

[david_horsager]: doesn’t mean don’t be humble. But the only way to rebuild trust is to make

[david_horsager]: and keep a new commitment or promise. the only well I’ ever rebuild it. And

[david_horsager]: so, um, I think the biggest problem on the on the health example that I gave

[david_horsager]: is the biggest problem with not um, making that wait by May first, or some

[david_horsager]: of these kind of things is I lose trust in myself whenever I make a goal and

[david_horsager]: don’t keep it, and even more when I make a promise and don’t keep it, And so

[david_horsager]: um, that’s that’s a. You know, we’re trying to increase trust. We see the

[david_horsager]: value of trust everywhere, and if we don’t make and keep promises, we don’t

[david_horsager]: trust ourselves. and it’s kind of like not to jump here. but you hear the

[david_horsager]: idea of love your neighbors yourself. You find someone who doesn’t love

[david_horsager]: themselves at all. You, you find someone who’s not very fun to be around.

[david_horsager]: It’s the same with people that don’t trust themselves. They breed poison all

[david_horsager]: over. And why don’t people trust themselves Because they don’t make and keep

[david_horsager]: promises.

[jason_hewlett]: That’s beautiful. Well said like somebody whose researched and spoken about

[jason_hewlett]: trust for a long time. David. Well done.

[david_horsager]: Well, I mean, it’s just your. Your work align so much with what we talk

[david_horsager]: about, and I just love it and I love what it means to us on the stage. I

[david_horsager]: love what it means to us as leaders or in boardrooms, and I love what it

[david_horsager]: means to us, especially in family and faith in in many ways. So

[david_horsager]: you know what? What do you? What are you working on these days? What are you

[david_horsager]: learning these days?

[jason_hewlett]: Oh man, so much is going on. It’s been really fascinated to go through coved

[jason_hewlett]: and the pandemic. I made a career for over twenty years on stages in front of

[jason_hewlett]: thousands of people at a time, and I never had a backu plan. I never had

[jason_hewlett]: online courses or coaching or any of these other things. It would have been

[jason_hewlett]: really smart to have created before a pandemic hit. but I’ll tell you, as I

[jason_hewlett]: scrambled and became a virtual speaker Once my calendar was wiped out in

[jason_hewlett]: March of twenty twenty, That showed me that I have other signature moves. I

[jason_hewlett]: didn’t know that I had such as resilience, creativity and technology,

[jason_hewlett]: Uh, just the ability to have energy that is almost unsustainable for a normal

[jason_hewlett]: person to be able to work endless hours and still be connected to my family.

[jason_hewlett]: To still keep my promise to be present with them. And I do like that hash tag

[jason_hewlett]: B present concept, especially with family. but uh, yeah, of late, meaning of

[jason_hewlett]: the last two years losing all the work recreating it for virtual, and then

[jason_hewlett]: saying I will accept some coaching clients and meaning I have a lot of people

[jason_hewlett]: that come to me and say hey, help me come up with my promised legacy project.

[jason_hewlett]: And uh, you know, if they’re a little bit older and successful, then they’ll

[jason_hewlett]: hire me to help them come up with that, which they, you know, they’ve already

[jason_hewlett]: accomplished a lot. but I like to say okay, let’s say the plane is going

[jason_hewlett]: down. What’s the one thing that you wish you had accomplished before you’re

[jason_hewlett]: gone? Let’s work on that. And so that’s what I’ve been helping some people

[jason_hewlett]: do, whether it’s creating a better speech, working on their messaging.

[jason_hewlett]: Writing a book, whatever it might be, It’s that thing that we want to leave

[jason_hewlett]: with somebody, and it becomes a great promise to live towards. So

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: working on that and writing consistently. I. I write a blog weekly. That’s

[jason_hewlett]: one of my promises. It’s one of those things where you like. I’m going to

[jason_hewlett]: write it on Monday, because it comes out Sunday, and then on Saturday night

[jason_hewlett]: at midnight. I’m like go. I got to keep the promise. you know

[david_horsager]: wherey working people working people find the blog

[jason_hewlett]: Blog is just at my website, which is Jason Hewlett Dot Com and the blog page,

[jason_hewlett]: but they could also access it if they wanted just through their phones by

[jason_hewlett]: typing two to eight to eight, and then typing in the letters ▁j h E. for

[jason_hewlett]: Jason Hewlett entertainment. So that’s a. That’s a cool way to do. You know

[jason_hewlett]: reminders of promises and fun stories

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: videos that I share. So yeah, two, two, eight to eight. That’s the number

[david_horsager]: so that that all be in the show, Not trusted Leader show dot com. you’ll

[david_horsager]: find Jason Hewlett exactly how to spell his name, and of course you’ll also

[david_horsager]: find how to get to the blog and the little two number that you can text.

[david_horsager]: Say that one more time, too.

[jason_hewlett]: two to eight to eight. Yeah, ▁j H, e.

[david_horsager]: All right, that’s awesome. So would give us one story like one of these that

[david_horsager]: you’ve told in your blog of somebody who’s kept a promise.

[david_horsager]: You know what? what that look like? How did that change the lives? What?

[david_horsager]: What’s an example?

[jason_hewlett]: Oh man, there are so many that have been been cool of late. I’ll say that,

[jason_hewlett]: Uh, there are people that do uh incredible things each and every day. In fact

[jason_hewlett]: I saw something that was real Ne. recently. And it. it was the video that I

[jason_hewlett]: found out was a couple of years old. but there was a there were you know ice

[jason_hewlett]: skaters. They all won their first second and third place. The Japanese guy

[jason_hewlett]: gets first place, the Canadian gets third place. They’re standing next to

[jason_hewlett]: each other on the podium. Music for the Japanese national anthem starts

[jason_hewlett]: playing, and all of a sudden the Canadian who took third place

[jason_hewlett]: realizes there’s no Japanese flag in front of this champion for him to salute

[jason_hewlett]: or bow. So what does the Canadian do Just out of the kindness of his

[jason_hewlett]: impromptu thinking,

[jason_hewlett]: he literally grabs the flag that’s behind both of them, the Japanese flag by

[jason_hewlett]: the corner and holds it up as the shocked champion uh, turns around and bows

[jason_hewlett]: to his flag that’s now being held up by a Canadian.

[david_horsager]: Hm, Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: I love that story. You know, here

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[jason_hewlett]: are two competitors and to have the respect for somebody else to do that in

[jason_hewlett]: without even thinking twice, he just did

[david_horsager]: hm,

[jason_hewlett]: what should be done in competition in sport. just like you and I, we. we

[jason_hewlett]: could be called competitors. We get gigs that I should get and you should

[jason_hewlett]: get, and we might get it one year or the other. David. I’m going, refer you

[jason_hewlett]: all daycause. I know you’re a champion. I know you’re the best they could

[jason_hewlett]: have, and I love that. I love that thought

[jason_hewlett]: and

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: so that was just one story of recent that I shared that I was like. I love

[jason_hewlett]: that that Canadian did that, And they said in the newspaper they’re like this

[jason_hewlett]: might be the most beloved person in all of Japan. This Canadian bronze

[jason_hewlett]: metaalist. You know,

[david_horsager]: that’s awesome. I love that and we love and we need to see more stories of

[david_horsager]: good. Actually, we don’t have to be divisive. We can care for each other and

[david_horsager]: encourage one another and even be so less. Um. So what a great example,

[david_horsager]: Heyj, Jason, I know you have habits when I, when I generally see leaders

[david_horsager]: that I respect and look up to in many ways, and I know. Um, there’s many

[david_horsager]: things you’re leading. not to mention, I know some of the Pe people you’re

[david_horsager]: coaching now have exited companies and are worth billions or millions, and

[david_horsager]: they’re asking you to kind of help build their their uh legacy promise. But

[david_horsager]: people like you that are touching others well, that are kind of the same on

[david_horsager]: stage and off. even though you’re really funny. Um, you’re this humble. you

[david_horsager]: know, as I know you as a just a a down earth guy. It seems like they have

[david_horsager]: some habits. Uh, maybe maybe it’s health habits. You said you’re in the gym.

[david_horsager]: But they have habits they do about every day to keep in touch with their

[david_horsager]: family. To whatever it is, what are? what are a few habits that you have or

[david_horsager]: repeaters. We call them that you do to you know, keep you ready to be

[david_horsager]: leading and influencing others.

[jason_hewlett]: I appreciate that question and I appreciate that you shared your health

[jason_hewlett]: journey as well, because I never knew you at the way you were talking about.

[jason_hewlett]: I’ve only knew you as Mister fitness man, and so I love that you’ve got this

[jason_hewlett]: question going on because I, too have had the struggle with the weight, but I

[jason_hewlett]: found out that if I had you know, if I wake up every single day and I’m

[jason_hewlett]: waiting to go to the gym, I feel this burden all day and I work out way

[jason_hewlett]: better in the afternoon or evening. just because of my, when I was a kid, was

[jason_hewlett]: easiest. So what I did is I changed my sleep in the last year. I change this

[jason_hewlett]: habit of. if I’m going to wake up and work out, I’m just going to get up and

[jason_hewlett]: go for it. And so five o’clock I go to the gym every daye I love it. I

[david_horsager]: Hm.

[jason_hewlett]: take a cold shower after

[jason_hewlett]: and not just because Weim Hoff tells us we should jump in a nice bath every

[jason_hewlett]: morning, but because I notice that this actually works, it energizes me. It

[jason_hewlett]: gets me rollin for the day, and if I can live these things that I’ve been

[jason_hewlett]: challenged to do in some ways and others have found that it actually works

[jason_hewlett]: for me. I’m now intermittent fasting, which I prefer over eatating. All you

[jason_hewlett]: know, seven or eight meals a day in the small meals, Like I was coached. Now

[jason_hewlett]: I’ve lost the weight and I’m keeping it off. Uh, I like to journal a lot. I’m

[jason_hewlett]: a every day journaler pretty much. I also listen to podcast when I work out,

[jason_hewlett]: and those kind of things that really inspire me, And so when there’s

[jason_hewlett]: congruance on and off our stage, whether we’re a performer, a speaker, or the

[jason_hewlett]: stage of being in sales and leadership. If we’re incongruent, it will be

[jason_hewlett]: noticed because our integrity is our harmony, and so we must be the same on

[jason_hewlett]: and off Staage. That doesn’t mean I have to be hilarious all the time. I can

[jason_hewlett]: turn it up to an eleven when it needs to be, But I, it’s always there.

[jason_hewlett]: There’s always a tinge of it there, and then another habit that I had say is

[jason_hewlett]: been really helpful, Has been a personal touch point with each child. Every

[jason_hewlett]: day I have four children.

[jason_hewlett]: Three of them are in their teens, And then we have one. that’s ten. And how

[jason_hewlett]: do I influence them on a daily basis? Whether it’s I’m home and I’m walking

[jason_hewlett]: by and asking how they’re doing and we have a quick connection or I’m on the

[jason_hewlett]: road and I’m sending a quick video or a text that I know will connect with

[jason_hewlett]: them. Uh, having that one personal one on one touch every single day with my

[jason_hewlett]: children and especially my wife. That makes all the difference in my habits.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, both have four children. We both uh, challenge each other in some

[david_horsager]: of those ways, and I think some things go through a flow like I remember. it

[david_horsager]: was very intention. for a few years. I give a video every day when I was on

[david_horsager]: the road, flying two hundred times a year, or whatever. Every single morning

[david_horsager]: I’ give a little encouragement and uh, sometimes Bible vs, and to my to my

[david_horsager]: family, and thening, course, what’s the new thing? And then I would get do

[david_horsager]: this and I would. do. you know. there’s sometimes there was things I didn’t

[david_horsager]: Um. there’s some things I think are absolutely stick with And there’s some

[david_horsager]: things Um did for years and then okay, they’re teenagers. They’re in college

[david_horsager]: or there, whatever, and let’s try something. Uh, something else. So anyway,

[david_horsager]: that’s I love it, boy, five a m and a cold shower or cold, iced iced path? I

[david_horsager]: guess I might have to try the new one. Hey on Intermitt. And what’s your?

[david_horsager]: What are your hours? like you? wait? Tiil, After when do you first eat or

[david_horsager]: what’s the hours that you eat? Well, how’s your intermit and work?

[jason_hewlett]: Mostly it’s two to six and I prefer that and uh, and I might only eat one

[jason_hewlett]: meal or I might eat two good meals and I don’t necesarily do that every

[jason_hewlett]: single day, because I think that’s unsustainable in a lot of ways. There are

[jason_hewlett]: some days when we might have a fun thing with family, so I just go off it

[jason_hewlett]: completely for the day, but I’ll continue to eat my healthy way, which is

[jason_hewlett]: very, very low, carb and no sugars at all, So yeah, that’s worked for me,

[jason_hewlett]: man, it’s been amazing.

[david_horsager]: Love it. No sugars. I’m telling y, ice cream. That’s just tough.

[jason_hewlett]: I think the last time I was

[jason_hewlett]: there with you we were having some like Minnesota custard or something and

[jason_hewlett]: was like where

[david_horsager]: exactly.

[jason_hewlett]: ice cream?

[david_horsager]: It’s funny thing you know, I, I might said this Bavs’, going to be

[david_horsager]: redundant, but I believe at least at one point, and I believe still today

[david_horsager]: Minnesota’ the highest per cappit ice cream eater in the country, Uh, per

[david_horsager]: person, And and people wonder why would they still eat ice cream in the

[david_horsager]: winter and everything else. I think partly. it’s because dairy ▁queen’s

[david_horsager]: headquarters Uh, are up here in every little town is a dairy. ▁queen, but

[david_horsager]: Um, there might be some other reasons too. so, um, there’s so much more we

[david_horsager]: could say. what E. I, one question before you get to one of the final

[david_horsager]: questions. What you know? You are so amazing on stage. If people haven’t

[david_horsager]: seen you, Y, your, the power of you or message is powerful. But you are an

[david_horsager]: amazing entertainer. I mean people that we know. I mean, like, really, like

[david_horsager]: the best.

[david_horsager]: How how do you prepare or how heavy Over the years prepared

[david_horsager]: you know for

[david_horsager]: doing that, Especially when you had to do it every day. you got to come in

[david_horsager]: fresh every day,

[jason_hewlett]: Yeah, I remember asking a Las Vegas headliner who was very very famous and I

[jason_hewlett]: said, How have you done this for forty fifty years in a row. Same thing over

[jason_hewlett]: and over because essentially the act didn’t change very much for them and

[jason_hewlett]: they said you know, each time somebody shows up, it’s the first time and it

[jason_hewlett]: could be the last, and that’s what keeps me rolling. And

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[jason_hewlett]: they would also make a promise to themselves to have fun with it each and

[jason_hewlett]: every time as if it were the first time performing it, even though it was

[jason_hewlett]: perfectly rehearsed, and so a lot of my confidence on stage uh, comes from my

[jason_hewlett]: practice and the amount of time I have put in to it just being automatically

[jason_hewlett]: good. And I mean, I can still go back to the routines that I’ve created years

[jason_hewlett]: and years ago that are now retired because of vocal issues or physicality.

[jason_hewlett]: That I can’t do it anymore and I can still throw those down. It’s crazy, but

[jason_hewlett]: it’s because it’s muscle memory. It’s the same

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: as a great basketball player that stands at the line and shoots a free throw

[jason_hewlett]: in the games on the line. You You really want your mind to go blank and then

[jason_hewlett]: you just perform. But

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: that’s the power of showing up every day doing the work and I’ll tell you,

[jason_hewlett]: David. tougher to do a show in front of twenty five people than it was twenty

[jason_hewlett]: five thousand. That’s for danger, because

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: you get the energy from the audience. You’re pomped up. pumping yourself up

[jason_hewlett]: in front of a group of twenty five people, or even even two hundred and fifty

[jason_hewlett]: people is rough after you just got off the stage in a stadium or Marna. But

[jason_hewlett]: that’s been

[david_horsager]: especially virtually.

[jason_hewlett]: part of the promise. Yes, especially

[david_horsager]: Oh,

[jason_hewlett]: yeah. Yeah, but I love it, man. I, I love getting stage and I I love teaching

[jason_hewlett]: yeah. Yeah, but I love it, man. I, I love getting stage and I I love teaching

[jason_hewlett]: people how to be better on stage. It’s really. It’s really a beautiful

[jason_hewlett]: people how to be better on stage. It’s really. It’s really a beautiful

[jason_hewlett]: process and I do think you have to have a screw loose in some ways, and

[jason_hewlett]: process and I do think you have to have a screw loose in some ways, and

[jason_hewlett]: that’s important. The right kind of screw loose. To be able to say, I’m

[jason_hewlett]: that’s important. The right kind of screw loose. To be able to say, I’m

[jason_hewlett]: confident enough to get up here and do something incredible or weird or

[jason_hewlett]: confident enough to get up here and do something incredible or weird or

[jason_hewlett]: amazing, but I’m also humble enough to work my tail off to make it awesome

[jason_hewlett]: amazing, but I’m also humble enough to work my tail off to make it awesome

[jason_hewlett]: for you.

[jason_hewlett]: for you.

[david_horsager]: M.

[david_horsager]: Well, this has been fantastic. Lots more we could talk about, but I have

[david_horsager]: huge respect for you for everybody listening. Look at the show. Now, Trust

[david_horsager]: the Leader show Dot com, Jason Hewlett Dot com. You can find everything

[david_horsager]: about Jason about the promise that promised his family the proms to the one,

[david_horsager]: and uh, just plain the promise. So grateful to have you Un grateful to call

[david_horsager]: your friend. Our last question,

[david_horsager]: trust leader, show who is the leader you trust in why?

[jason_hewlett]: Well, this person will not listen to this podcast because she’s too busy

[jason_hewlett]: dealing with our children. But let me talk about my wife,

[jason_hewlett]: my favorite leader. The best one. I think I have ever seen somebody who can

[jason_hewlett]: help the neighbor and at the same time influence the lives of our children.

[jason_hewlett]: Somebody who

[david_horsager]: H.

[jason_hewlett]: has a strong and deep faith and somebody who can still

[jason_hewlett]: hang along with me while I put us through heck over twenty twenty and twenty

[jason_hewlett]: twenty one, trying to figure out pandemic life. And yet she still says. I

[jason_hewlett]: believe in you. A great leader like her is very rare to find. I believe they

[jason_hewlett]: can be made. I don’t think leaders just have to be born. I think we can

[jason_hewlett]: become a great leader, listing a podcast like this, reading books like you’ve

[jason_hewlett]: created, and so forth, But to have a wife named Tammy who is my trusted

[jason_hewlett]: leader. Whatever she says, I believe if she

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[jason_hewlett]: tells me I’m not present because I’m my phone too much. I delete those apps

[jason_hewlett]: and I get present. I’m grateful for her as my trusted leader.

[david_horsager]: Hm. Tammy is amazing, Mom’s as a whole, By the way, in the research, Uh, the

[david_horsager]: person that people trust the most in the world is not the Pope, Oprah or

[david_horsager]: Denzil. It is in fact, Mom. Uh, So I know your kids trust her too, But, but

[david_horsager]: your wife is an amazing and amazing mom, leader and friend, so we can’t go

[david_horsager]: far from that. This has Ben the trusted Leader show, special guest Jason

[david_horsager]: Hewlett, He’ is amazing on stageing off. Thank you so much for being on

[david_horsager]: Jason until next time, stay trusted.

Ep. 73: Stacey Hanke on How To Communicate With Influence

In this episode, David sites down with Stacey Hanke, Influence Expert, Author, and Speaker, to discuss how to communicate with influence.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Stacey’s Bio:
Stacey is the author of “Influence Redefined…Be the Leader You Were Meant to Be, Monday to Monday®” and “Yes You Can! Everything You Need to Know From A to Z to Influence Others to Take Action.” Her books provide practical and immediate skills and techniques that have given thousands the ability to enhance their influence, Monday to Monday®.

Stacey helps individuals eliminate the static that plagues communicative delivery — to persuade, sell, influence and communicate face-to-face with a clear message. She has presented to and trained thousands to rid themselves of bad body language habits and choose words wisely. Her client list is vast from the financial industry to the healthcare industry to government and everyone in-between.

Her work ethic was forged in her childhood years growing up on a farm. She gave up the pitchfork to take her message across the country, and to help leaders see and hear what their audiences see and hear rather than what they believe to be true. She gives executives what has been described as the “greatest gift of all” – to see themselves as others see them.

Stacey’s Links:
Website: https://staceyhankeinc.com/
“Influence Redefined” by Stacey Hanke: https://amzn.to/3hKcE4D
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceyhanke
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StaceyHankeInc?ref=hl
Twitter: https://twitter.com/StaceyHankeInc
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/staceyhankeinc/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/StaceyHanke

Key Quotes:
1. “Feedback first is key first to get to accountability.”
2. “What gets rewarded in public gets practiced in private.” – Michael Jordan
3. “No one is born as an influential leader.”
4. “How you create influence virtually is to give your listener the feeling as if you’re sitting in the same room with them.”
5. “We have Zoom fatigue because meetings are ineffective.”
6. “How we show up, every interaction, will either enhance or jeopardize the reputation we are trying to create.”
7. “Every interaction is an opportunity to practice what you want to improve.”
8. “Title and our feeling doesn’t guarantee the level of influence that we have.”
9. “Be conscious of how you show up.”
10. “Identify your listeners’ why.”
11. “Don’t step on your ideas. And don’t step on your listeners’ ideas.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Influence Redefined” by Stacey Hanke: https://amzn.to/3hKcE4D
“The Last Dance” docuseries: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144
Trusted Leader Summit: http://trustedleadersummit.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

[david_horsager]: Welcome to the Trusted Leader Show. it’s David Horsager and I have a special

[david_horsager]: guest. Thank you so much for being with our trust. The leaders, Stacy Hanke,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Oh my gosh, thank you. You know I love doing this. This is

[david_horsager]: Well,

[stacey_l_hanke]: great things for the opportunity.

[david_horsager]: absolutely, Stacey is the c. e O and founder of Stacy Hunky Inc. Her client

[david_horsager]: list is unbelievable. Everything from Microsoft to Milwaukee to Mcdonalds.

[david_horsager]: Just put those three Ms. in there Vanguard. She’s been on Tedex Fet and an

[david_horsager]: Fedex, Get little rhyme going here, Um, Oracle and Boeing. She’s brilliant

[david_horsager]: and she’s an expert on communicating with influence. There’s a lot of very

[david_horsager]: interesting overlap in our work to building trusted leaders. But before we

[david_horsager]: get there, Stacy has. Uh, she’s author of a great book. We’re going to talk

[david_horsager]: about what influence we defined Be the leader. You were meant to be Monday

[david_horsager]: to Monday. Stacey, thanks so much for being here just for everybody. Give us

[david_horsager]: a little inside scoop on something we don’t know about Stacey,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Well, well, first, you can introduce me any day with that with that kind of

[stacey_l_hanke]: introduction and enthusiasm. I think you know, and some people know this,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and some people don’t you know this because we have a very similar

[stacey_l_hanke]: background. I

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: always share. My upbringing really determines and shows that the level of

[stacey_l_hanke]: drive I have now running a company and that is growing up on a farm like

[stacey_l_hanke]: that’s so ingrained me and it’s kind of comical Davi. because growing up the

[stacey_l_hanke]: farm, I couldn’t wait to get off because it was so much work. And then you

[stacey_l_hanke]: know you decide to be an entrepreneur as if that’s any easier. But that’s

[stacey_l_hanke]: maybe

[david_horsager]: right,

[stacey_l_hanke]: like a little nugget of just really the core of who I am and what I’ve

[stacey_l_hanke]: created over here.

[david_horsager]: the farm girl from Wisconsin, and we’ve had Y out to our farm, and now

[david_horsager]: you’ve grown, grown, an amazing business, and it’s been fun. We’re a part of

[david_horsager]: a. I guess people would say, pretty a leader, unique, uh group of

[david_horsager]: entrepreneurs, a small group that. I’m grateful. That’s where I got to know

[david_horsager]: you. so

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: let’s move into this because you, uh, work with some amazing folks and help

[david_horsager]: them in amazing ways on communicating with influence. First of all you know,

[david_horsager]: let let’s talk about. I want to get into the book for a second, because

[david_horsager]: you’ve got this this model for uh, communicating with influence, And there

[david_horsager]: are three drivers you talk about feedback, deliberate practice and

[david_horsager]: accountability. I’m going to jump to the bottom of that accountability

[david_horsager]: because what we see a whole lot is people think they know what

[david_horsager]: accountability is and they don’t. I’ll go into companies. say. Oh, we got a

[david_horsager]: valuable accountability and and then they’ll be like Uh, I’ll say Well,

[david_horsager]: Well, how do you hold people accountable here? And like, Wow, you know

[david_horsager]: accountability stuff they don’t really know. So what does this mean? give us

[david_horsager]: a little overview of the model in our short time together and then let’s

[david_horsager]: touch on a tip for accountability.

[stacey_l_hanke]: okay, So the model to just give your listeners your follower as a visual. I

[stacey_l_hanke]: want them to imagine a triangle Right. And what David just talked about

[stacey_l_hanke]: feedback. deliberate practice, accountability. They sit around that triangle

[stacey_l_hanke]: and I really believe this is like a constant. Those three have to work

[stacey_l_hanke]: together to drive influence Monday to Monday, which we, we can get in that a

[stacey_l_hanke]: little later. So to get to accountability feedback. First of all, so many of

[stacey_l_hanke]: the leaders that we mentor will say we love you and you, we hate you. And

[stacey_l_hanke]: when I ask them well, let’s go to the hate part first. and they’re like

[stacey_l_hanke]: you’re the first person that really tells us the truth, and so many times

[stacey_l_hanke]: you can get this Probably with some of your clients, David. as you climb the

[stacey_l_hanke]: ladder. If you ask, how did I do? give me some feedback. We often hear.

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: nice good

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: job. And and

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: they’re not confident to tell you. Well, you take two on to get to the

[stacey_l_hanke]: point. It’s hard to follow your message, whatever it is, so feedback is key

[stacey_l_hanke]: first to get to

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountability. You’ve got to make sure that the feedback is specific, So

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: you know what is working. What’s not? What do I do to get there?

[stacey_l_hanke]: It’s

[david_horsager]: feedback is so critical and I, I just have to yesterday. I was listening to

[david_horsager]: a podcast Global Leadership summit. Greg Rochelle was on and talking about

[david_horsager]: how they built this. You know, they have massive positive influence, but the

[david_horsager]: a culture of feedback. It’s so uncommon, Especially in certain cultures they

[david_horsager]: have you’. a big non profit where sometimes people can kind of be nice, and

[david_horsager]: we know about that. Even in Minnesota, it’s great to be kind, but kindness

[david_horsager]: is also telling the truth and making this place where it’s safe to

[stacey_l_hanke]: yeah, yes.

[stacey_l_hanke]: yeah. yeah,

[david_horsager]: give feedback that helps us be better.

[david_horsager]: give feedback that helps us be better.

[stacey_l_hanke]: And and then that’s half the problem right. A lot of my clients will say

[stacey_l_hanke]: You’re the really the first that has ever given us constructive feedback.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Well then accountability though you first, you’ve got to have that

[stacey_l_hanke]: deliberate practice and

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: I, I’m I’m saying deliberate practice. I’m I’m here in Chicago and I always

[stacey_l_hanke]: share the story about Michael Jordan. If you haven’t seen his documentary

[stacey_l_hanke]: Last dance, it’s a good one to check out, and in the documentary he says he

[stacey_l_hanke]: did a thousand shots a day, six thousand a week. he goes on to say, What

[stacey_l_hanke]: gets rewarded in public gets practised in private.

[stacey_l_hanke]: No one is born as an influential leader. And and you, really, you have to

[stacey_l_hanke]: make the shots in anything in life if you want to change behavior. Well, if

[stacey_l_hanke]: you’ve got feedback and deliberate practice constantly driving each other,

[stacey_l_hanke]: the accountability is the big piece of it. Your’re listeners, your

[stacey_l_hanke]: followers, everyone around you can tell when you don’t hold yourself

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountable, And and David, you and I both know that what doesn’t get

[stacey_l_hanke]: measured, nothing’s going to happen. The

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountability is not the work I do with individuals. I always say I can’t

[stacey_l_hanke]: make your people do it. I can give them the tools and the best way to hold

[stacey_l_hanke]: yourself accountable in the work that I do. is we talk a lot about recording

[stacey_l_hanke]: yourself, similar to what were we’re doing right here together.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Record yourself and start seeing yourself through the eyes and ears of your

[stacey_l_hanke]: listeners. But you have to do that on a weekly basis, especially initially

[stacey_l_hanke]: to just understand and give yourself feedback. That’s number one tipper on

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountability The second.

[stacey_l_hanke]: If you’ve got a front who runs with you every morning, and at five a m, they

[stacey_l_hanke]: are at your doorstep. You’re going to put your feet on the floor as well.

[stacey_l_hanke]: you’re You’re not going to stand bad. But if I don’t have an accountability

[stacey_l_hanke]: partner checking in with me on how I’m developing around how I’m

[stacey_l_hanke]: communicating, I’ll never do it. So it’s finding an accountability partner.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Maybe someone near personally from your professional life, that will be

[stacey_l_hanke]: honest with you. Tell you the truth of what you want to be told, and then on

[stacey_l_hanke]: a regular basis,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and I think that’s

[david_horsager]: I want to make

[stacey_l_hanke]: the piece where people don’t th it. It’s you have to be accountable to even

[stacey_l_hanke]: do those two

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountability steps.

[david_horsager]: I think it’s interesting. I think I read this. This was the a big study by

[david_horsager]: the Association of talent development, and they found basically ten percent

[david_horsager]: of people that have goals accomplish them

[david_horsager]: of those that have goals with an accountability partner that they meet

[david_horsager]: without a specific time. It jumps up to ninety five percent.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah, yeah,

[david_horsager]: It’s ridiculous and with yeah,

[stacey_l_hanke]: I totally believe it, and we, and we can track that you know. I, I’ve shared

[stacey_l_hanke]: with you before that we do research. We partner with the social research

[stacey_l_hanke]: lab. I know you. you’ve worked with them too before out of Northern Co.

[stacey_l_hanke]: University of Northern Colorado, and the research that we sh, showed or

[stacey_l_hanke]: proved through that was exactly the same thing. If we had the leader of the

[stacey_l_hanke]: team that we were training, go through our workshop and we would check six

[stacey_l_hanke]: months to a year after the accountability was still there. If the leader

[stacey_l_hanke]: didn’t go through the training that would strap. almost fifty percent. half

[stacey_l_hanke]: of the group was still working on what we recommend at the other half, and

[stacey_l_hanke]: when we went back to ask what they’re saying, Well, no one. really. I had no

[stacey_l_hanke]: one to report into. I had no one hold myself accountable. Now. I can push

[stacey_l_hanke]: back on that because you’re still. You’re You’re the one that can only hold

[stacey_l_hanke]: yourself accountable, But we get life gets in the way things get in the way.

[stacey_l_hanke]: and when I’m saying accountability partners the best people to tell you the

[stacey_l_hanke]: truth are people in your personal life. Hey,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: we’ve all been spending two years with our families, Perhaps very. In close

[stacey_l_hanke]: quarters we’ve created our only our only rework sessions, right, a

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: co, co, sharing space, asking them to give you that honest feedback, but

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: to do it in the moment though two d da, you know Th. If if you

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and I were just on this call and I wanted you to give me feedback, you’

[stacey_l_hanke]: accountability partner, I would say to you here’. What I want to work on.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Would you jump in every time I go off track? and that

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: just takes feedback to. interactive coaching is what I refer to. That takes

[stacey_l_hanke]: it to a whole new level?

[david_horsager]: here’s what I want to work on. Hey, can you help me with this? I

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: could see that working. I could see that telling my teenagers that and

[david_horsager]: saying Hey, you guys help me with this.

[stacey_l_hanke]: and they will love

[david_horsager]: They. they’re happy to help.

[stacey_l_hanke]: yet. and that’s where I love family members, friends, because they can give

[stacey_l_hanke]: you feedback in the moment. Now. If it is something

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[stacey_l_hanke]: like this call where you really cannot or I can’t interactively coach you

[stacey_l_hanke]: during this recording before we hop down, we could have said to each other

[stacey_l_hanke]: All right, Here’s what I’m working on. Would you watch and listen for that

[stacey_l_hanke]: and then after the

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: recording, let’s just take two minutes. I’m not asking people to

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: carve out more time in their day. You. You’re talking all the time anyway.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Now just puts strategy put purpose around every interaction that you have.

[david_horsager]: there’s a whole lot more here. I

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: love the framework. The book is called Influence Redefined. We’re going to

[david_horsager]: put all this in the show notes. trusted leaders, Uh, trusted leader show,

[david_horsager]: Dot Com, trust leader show, almost said, Trust the leaders, Sumit dot com.

[david_horsager]: That’s coming up. Our summit is coming up quickly, and um, but trust the

[david_horsager]: leader. show Dot com. put all the show notes, and uh where they can find out

[david_horsager]: about you before we uh, move too far from this thought, though, Want to jump

[david_horsager]: over to something that people are talking a lot about today, And that is how

[david_horsager]: do I just build influence? Especially virtually. I mean we still have

[david_horsager]: people. Uh, they are going to be in virtual for a long time. How? what? Or?

[david_horsager]: or maybe I? I know you’ve written on and talked about. What are the mistakes

[david_horsager]: people are making as they try to build influence virtually or in person?

[stacey_l_hanke]: how much time do you? Yeah, how much time do you have?

[david_horsager]: Yeah, let’s go give us.

[stacey_l_hanke]: No?

[david_horsager]: Yeah.

[stacey_l_hanke]: And and it’s it’s more. we don’t realize. I think we have forgotten David

[stacey_l_hanke]: that this is still work. You’re still

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[stacey_l_hanke]: building a personal brand and you’d be shocked the amount of people that I’m

[stacey_l_hanke]: working with that will show up and I’m thinking would you ever have a

[stacey_l_hanke]: conference room in your bedroom? Come on, you’ve you’ve had two years.

[stacey_l_hanke]: You’ve got to make a change. So the first thing that my team and I did when

[stacey_l_hanke]: this all went down and we went into lock down, I said to them, We’re in a

[stacey_l_hanke]: brainstorm. What do we do in person? What is the experience our clients have

[stacey_l_hanke]: with us in person? And how can we build that experience here as well? So one

[stacey_l_hanke]: people want to just take a step back and think about how do you interact

[stacey_l_hanke]: with in person? You maybe look people dead in the eyes. Maybe you use

[stacey_l_hanke]: gestures. you don’t use gures. If you just think about how you behave in

[stacey_l_hanke]: person. The idea is how you create influence. Virtual is to give your

[stacey_l_hanke]: listener the feeling as if you’re sitting in the same room with them. So we

[stacey_l_hanke]: give you just one tip. You notice how much of me you can see today, and and

[stacey_l_hanke]: I’ll just

[david_horsager]: mhm.

[stacey_l_hanke]: mess around here a little bit. I have a stand up desk. but I always tease

[stacey_l_hanke]: individuals, David. because I’m like, Why would you put your head on A? You

[stacey_l_hanke]: would never sit this way right. So it’s it’s the. It’s the small things like

[stacey_l_hanke]: if your camera is not set upwards, I love when you just lock

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and load with that listener. Everything else is going to go out the window

[stacey_l_hanke]: and and here’s

[david_horsager]: for those that aren’t watching you just listening, You just went. She looks

[david_horsager]: great when she’ got the camera at I level. And you’re seeing about a little

[david_horsager]: more of you. Is what your showing so that you can have arm gestures

[stacey_l_hanke]: yeah. See what I’m doing.

[david_horsager]: and your backed up just slightly, But but you’re not looking down at the

[david_horsager]: camera? you’re not looking up at it. You looking eye level perfect,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah, or you’re not spending the time with your monitor. Or

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: as if people can’t tell your checking email.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: I’ll have the. The email from their laptop will reflect off their glasses.

[stacey_l_hanke]: David. and like, come on, I see what you’re doing. So I thing. We just need

[stacey_l_hanke]: to take a step back and say every way we behave in person. it needs to be

[stacey_l_hanke]: here too, Because if you mess with this and how you connect

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and you engage with people in your level of energy or lack of energy, and

[stacey_l_hanke]: then you’re

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: in person and people are like Woe. you’re two different people. Now you

[stacey_l_hanke]: in person and people are like Woe. you’re two different people. Now you

[stacey_l_hanke]: start to impact the trust, So the biggest mistakes is the set up, David. the

[stacey_l_hanke]: start to impact the trust, So the biggest mistakes is the set up, David. the

[stacey_l_hanke]: lack of brevity.

[stacey_l_hanke]: lack of brevity.

[stacey_l_hanke]: I, I’d like to raise the question of do you we have? we have ▁z fatigue.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Because meetings are in’tffective and that’s what’s causing ▁zoom fatigue.

[stacey_l_hanke]: And and and don’t be the one that leads an ineffective Meeting the eyes is

[stacey_l_hanke]: the big one where we just

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: we. We don’t know where to look and we, we’re having

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: conversations with everyone else besides who we’re supposed to connect with,

[stacey_l_hanke]: So you miss reading your listeners.

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: So it’s the. The brevity is the big one.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[david_horsager]: Anything else? Having engaging to engaging people online, How to to to

[david_horsager]: increase my employe You got a lot of ideas. What are some others?

[stacey_l_hanke]: Like what we’re doing,

[stacey_l_hanke]: you talk. let them talk. I am be with open ended questions, and I always

[stacey_l_hanke]: tell anyone that if people aren’t used to me and we’re we’re getting on a a

[stacey_l_hanke]: team sales pitch. for example, sales call,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: and within the first two minutes I’m calling someone out because I want them

[stacey_l_hanke]: to feel

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: like Wa. K. She’s not going to just lecture to us and give her

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: our pitch, but she is really going to make us do the majority that you’re

[stacey_l_hanke]: talking. and as the

[david_horsager]: What’s the favorite question?

[david_horsager]: Open ended,

[stacey_l_hanke]: what it, what is your biggest challenge that your’re seeing your listeners

[stacey_l_hanke]: are experiencing in this virtual space.

[stacey_l_hanke]: And then after you ask that question, David, you learn to outpause everyone

[stacey_l_hanke]: on that call because someone one will get uncomfortable and start in. And

[stacey_l_hanke]: what you’re doing. You’re creating the behavior Right how we show up. Every

[stacey_l_hanke]: interaction will either enhance or jeopardize the reputation we’re trying to

[stacey_l_hanke]: create. The good news is, every interaction is an opportunity to practe what

[stacey_l_hanke]: do you want to improve, because we’re here so often throughout the day. The

[stacey_l_hanke]: interaction though is the key is, and I’m not saying, go into your chat. I’m

[stacey_l_hanke]: saying, Talk to people. Call them out, David. What’s your thought around

[stacey_l_hanke]: this process? How should we move forward,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Because if you do it with

[david_horsager]: M.

[stacey_l_hanke]: one person,

[stacey_l_hanke]: suddenly, everyone else on the call is thinking, shiny object, I am next.

[stacey_l_hanke]: There’s a good chance I want to be called on and it’s magic how it works.

[david_horsager]: Well, you, you said something before we talk about this.

[david_horsager]: There’s I want you to get at this for our listeners. Why most people believe

[david_horsager]: they have more influence than they actually have.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah, it goes back to the feedback and so many times individuals will say to

[stacey_l_hanke]: me Well, I’ve been doing this for a long time. I’ve been in this position

[stacey_l_hanke]: for a long time. I. I communicate every day when I know what to say. I. I, I

[stacey_l_hanke]: feel confident,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Title and our feeling doesn’t guarantee the level of influence that we have.

[stacey_l_hanke]: I’ve I’ve worked with C e Os, whose assistances are more influential than

[stacey_l_hanke]: they are. And keep in mind you know C e O gets that point and no one really

[stacey_l_hanke]: gives them constructive feedback any morere We go off a feeling rather than

[stacey_l_hanke]: fact, And this whole idea of you know re recording yourself in your phone.

[stacey_l_hanke]: This is fact. This is the eyes and ears of your listeners and David. I still

[stacey_l_hanke]: think this is more powerful than you and I seeing each other on screen, or

[stacey_l_hanke]: when people

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[stacey_l_hanke]: are on ▁zoom. There, there’s still

[david_horsager]: Y.

[stacey_l_hanke]: something about seeing yourself in action. So the why we think we’re more

[stacey_l_hanke]: influential? We’re not getting the feedback we need. We. we never practice.

[stacey_l_hanke]: When was the last thing time you really thought about? Oh, wonder what my my

[stacey_l_hanke]: hands are doing. Wonder what my eyes are doing. We, most of the time we

[stacey_l_hanke]: don’t think that way. And if we’re doing ▁zoom after ▁zoom, it’s I’ve got to

[stacey_l_hanke]: get this meeting out. I’ve got to cram this information down their throat.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Good, I’m onto the next one. and the second is we. We just we’re not seeing

[stacey_l_hanke]: ourselves on through the eyes and ears of our listeners. We’re just not

[stacey_l_hanke]: doing the accountability behind judging how much Te. not judging really

[stacey_l_hanke]: measuring how much influence we really have.

[david_horsager]: So we needed accountability partner. We need to get feedback. How do we do

[david_horsager]: this? You talk a lot in other scenarios or other settings. I haveve heard

[david_horsager]: you on this Monday to Monday. It’s part of who you are and your company is

[david_horsager]: this consistencyece. Of course, the eighth cllor of trust is consistency. We

[david_horsager]: called the ▁queen and King of the Pill. talk to me about this idea of Monday

[david_horsager]: to Monday.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah, Yeah, we do. you and I have so much crossover. We. we’ve talked about

[stacey_l_hanke]: this be before, an a reference to your material Often because it’s idea of

[stacey_l_hanke]: trust, so it ties also to Monday to Monday. It’s twofold

[stacey_l_hanke]: how you experience me here, David. And and you’ve been with me in person, is

[stacey_l_hanke]: pretty much how I am in person, correct, I mean, I’m not. I’m not trying to

[david_horsager]: Yesm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: be something different here than I in person. So now with all the mediums

[stacey_l_hanke]: virtual, in person, high bred. And and how I define highbred, You’re talking

[stacey_l_hanke]: to a live audience and people virtually all the same time, right, or you’re

[stacey_l_hanke]: hanging out with friends and family, versus with C workers. There’s this

[stacey_l_hanke]: level of

[stacey_l_hanke]: y. You can’t be all distracted with your family all week Andd long, and then

[stacey_l_hanke]: suddenly Monday morning you’ve got a ▁zoomon. You’re like, Oh, okay, I’m

[stacey_l_hanke]: going to be a different person. That’s what I mean. And and I’m not saying

[stacey_l_hanke]: you have to be perfect. A perfect communicator. Be conscious of how do you

[stacey_l_hanke]: show up. Is your brand consistent? Or do people have to guess who’s going to

[stacey_l_hanke]: show up? Cameron, Camera off in person, not in person. That’s one side of

[stacey_l_hanke]: it. The other side of Monday to Monday is again the behavior.

[stacey_l_hanke]: So how I behave is always consistent every day of the week.

[stacey_l_hanke]: So once you th think like, let’s go back to Michael Jordan, or you could

[stacey_l_hanke]: take a A a Gulf. For example, why do you think golf is so hard if you don’t

[stacey_l_hanke]: hold yourself accountable and practe every core element to that skill of

[stacey_l_hanke]: golf?

[stacey_l_hanke]: And however, a golfer practices Monday through Friday Is how they’re going

[stacey_l_hanke]: to perform on Saturday? I mean so relevant. Now, if any onee’s watching the

[stacey_l_hanke]: Olympics, imagine the hours these folks have put in the difference between

[stacey_l_hanke]: us and an olympian. Every day in the corporate world is game day, because

[stacey_l_hanke]: your name is on everything that you do. The good news is every time you turn

[stacey_l_hanke]: that camera on, every time you you interact with someone. you’ve got an

[stacey_l_hanke]: opportunity to practice And just think about how are you coming across until

[stacey_l_hanke]: you form the new behavior that you want to put your name on to it.

[david_horsager]: one one more tip here on influence. We’ all trying to influence. We have our

[david_horsager]: own reasons. we want to influence. Because we care about a mission. We care

[david_horsager]: about the difference we make. we care about changing the world. We care

[david_horsager]: about raising good kids. we care about. We all know why influence. You know.

[david_horsager]: we want to be influential. Hopefully for good. What’s another tip? How can

[david_horsager]: we be a little bit better at influencing in our space?

[stacey_l_hanke]: The Other one we really haven’t talked aboutcause. We talked a lot about

[stacey_l_hanke]: behavior. Let’s

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[stacey_l_hanke]: just switch to messaging because I define influence, body language and

[stacey_l_hanke]: messaging their consistent Monday to Monday from a messaging standpoint. I

[stacey_l_hanke]: talk a lot about identifying your listeners.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Why why should they care? Why did? Why did they come on a call with you? Why

[stacey_l_hanke]: is this important to them? And how many times do we get on meetings and they

[stacey_l_hanke]: start this way. Thanks for coming on coming on the meeting. I know you guys

[stacey_l_hanke]: are all busy. What I would like to talk about to day is, I believe I think

[stacey_l_hanke]: here’s what I think we should do. So much of our conversation is us focused

[stacey_l_hanke]: versus let’s take a step back and focus on your listeners, wife. first,

[stacey_l_hanke]: how you do that throughout the conversation And this is also part of trust.

[stacey_l_hanke]: using that pause not just to communicate with brevity, but using that pause

[stacey_l_hanke]: to constantly adapt your message on the flight. I mean, and give me example.

[stacey_l_hanke]: I’m I’m working with a comedian right now, Just says as as a coach, and and

[stacey_l_hanke]: helping me right. So he’s on like the big stages we were coaching last week

[stacey_l_hanke]: And he said He, You know comedians, what they call The pause. They say, It’s

[stacey_l_hanke]: pause for the cause.

[stacey_l_hanke]: he said, When a comedian pauses, they’re doing it on purpose right because

[stacey_l_hanke]: it’s right after a punch line and that gives your audience the experience of

[stacey_l_hanke]: the laughter. That that’s why we watch comedians for the experience, he

[stacey_l_hanke]: said, If a comedian doesn’t pause after that punch line, they now are

[stacey_l_hanke]: stepping on the laughter and I

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[stacey_l_hanke]: came back and said Tom David. I’m like, Oh, I go. that’s what I’m talking to

[stacey_l_hanke]: my clients. Don’t step on your ideas

[stacey_l_hanke]: and don’t step on your listener’s ideas. And that’s what happens if we

[stacey_l_hanke]: constantly are going and talking a Ma a minute and really honoring that

[stacey_l_hanke]: silence, so that when you’re silent you’re listening for what is really

[stacey_l_hanke]: important to these folks. What do I need to say? How can I adapt my message

[stacey_l_hanke]: on the fly to make sure that they feel like I’m communicating with empathy,

[stacey_l_hanke]: listening to what’s important to them to get them to the solution

[stacey_l_hanke]: that’s going to influence that action.

[stacey_l_hanke]: And and that’s a lot of focus, right? I mean we. we just don’t we want to do

[stacey_l_hanke]: all the talking. I always encourage you to take about twenty five percent

[stacey_l_hanke]: out of that conversation. Put it into their lap. And it’s so much easier

[stacey_l_hanke]: too, because you’re busy just absorbing everything that they’re saying to

[stacey_l_hanke]: help let your listener help you

[stacey_l_hanke]: create your conversation on the fly.

[david_horsager]: this is critical. You know, we talk about this with our, with our trustage,

[david_horsager]: facilitators or partners. Every time we’re talking about anything, whether

[david_horsager]: it’s the case for trust or the pillars or whatever at the end section’.

[david_horsager]: Thinking, what does this mean to them?

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: Because that reframes how we teach or train or equip or coach or consult on

[david_horsager]: anything. What does this mean to them?

[stacey_l_hanke]: right,

[david_horsager]: So I love this idea of getting pausing. and looking back, I love two sides

[david_horsager]: of this. of course, the pause for the cause, but this starting with what’s

[david_horsager]: the? What’s what did they want? Because we can, you know we can’t give With

[david_horsager]: they want up. We don’t even know right.

[stacey_l_hanke]: yeah, yeah.

[david_horsager]: We don’t pause and think about it instead of just giving what we want so

[david_horsager]: great ideas here, Stacey. Work can people find out more about you?

[stacey_l_hanke]: right, on our website, and there’s all of our social media handlers handles,

[stacey_l_hanke]: so that we are always com constantly pushing resources out there so you can

[stacey_l_hanke]: latch on to whatever you need, Go to our website, Stacy with an e, y, h, a

[stacey_l_hanke]: n, k, e, i, n c, dot com.

[david_horsager]: And there’s a load of complimentary content that you give away, and a load

[david_horsager]: of ways you help people that want to be more influential on the stage as

[david_horsager]: coaches as sales leaders. Final question,

[david_horsager]: it’s the Trusted leader show. So we always end with this.

[david_horsager]: Who is the leader you trust And

[david_horsager]: whym?

[stacey_l_hanke]: I know you. You might not be expecting this, my dad,

[stacey_l_hanke]: truly, my dad, and and I, I reflect back to the the little things that he

[stacey_l_hanke]: would give to my sisters and I growing up. When he said it, I thought it’s

[stacey_l_hanke]: crazy. What is this going to do my life right and a lot of it was. You would

[stacey_l_hanke]: always say, Follow through. If you follow through what you said you’re going

[stacey_l_hanke]: to do, you’ll be the top one per cent. And remember hearing that thinking

[stacey_l_hanke]: that’s not hard or he would always, and that came through with everything

[stacey_l_hanke]: right. So follow through the other thing that he always said, Just such

[stacey_l_hanke]: common sense that we all need to today, especially he always said, Be kind,

[stacey_l_hanke]: no matter who it is, and when I was in grade school, you always said Be kind

[stacey_l_hanke]: of janitor. Did you say hello to the janitor day?

[stacey_l_hanke]: And it’s it’s those. I think. It’s just the little things in life that if

[stacey_l_hanke]: these last two years have proven anything, it’s go back to your basics, but

[stacey_l_hanke]: commit to it and just be consistent by figuring out how do you want others

[stacey_l_hanke]: to perceive you, and then you’ll you’ll figure out the level of influence

[stacey_l_hanke]: you have or what you need to do to have more influence. If that’s the case,

[david_horsager]: my too. talk,

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: J. you

[david_horsager]: know just what we’re talking here. You made me think of something. my f. f.

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah, I shouldn’t leave my mom out right, but my mom won’t see this.

[david_horsager]: I’t Well, we both do, my mommy’s sake. go the extra mile. Other people don’t

[david_horsager]: go there. Anybody can do it halfway, Go the extra mile

[stacey_l_hanke]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: so anyway, Well, you can see all the showoes at Trusted Leader show Dot com.

[david_horsager]: This has been a treat,

[stacey_l_hanke]: thank

[david_horsager]: Stacy to have you on and I just thank you. Thanks for be my friend. Thanks

[david_horsager]: for

[stacey_l_hanke]: you, you, too.

[david_horsager]: being such a an influential leader in this world To so many This has been

[david_horsager]: the Trusted Leader Show. Until next time, Stay trusted.

Ep. 72: Tom Ziglar on How To Lead Your Team Through Immense Change

In this episode, David sits down with Tom Ziglar, CEO of Zig Ziglar Corporation, Author, and Speaker, to discuss how to lead your team through immense change.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Tom’s Bio:
Tom Ziglar has had the rare privilege of spending his entire life surrounded by world-class leaders, innovators, and motivators. Family dinner included the presence of the world’s TOP motivator, his father, Zig Ziglar. As a result, Tom’s arsenal of experience and information is absolutely unparalleled.

As CEO of Zig Ziglar Corporation, Tom Ziglar carries on the Ziglar philosophy: “You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want.” He has written two books, Choose to Win in 2019 and 10 Leadership Virtues for Disruptive Times, published and released in December 2021. Both of these books expand the Ziglar branding and philosophy in personal development and leadership and provide the backbone for the most innovative coaching program in the world.

A more productive, fulfilling, and meaningful life is available to those willing to follow his easy-to-implement sequence of making one small choice at a time through the time-tested seven key areas: mental, spiritual, physical, family, financial, personal, and career.

Tom speaks around the world to billion-dollar companies, small business owners, and prestigious academic institutions, including Cambridge and Harvard. Leadership, business, and performance are among Tom’s favored topics.

The Ziglar brand is more relevant today than ever. Ziglar has exceeded five million likes on Facebook, and The Ziglar Show has become one of the top-ranked business podcasts. In 2020 Tom conducted over 300 webinars and podcasts and launched the Ziglar Coaching System, licensing and equipping over 150 coaches to teach the Choose To Win and See You At The Top programs. The world is hungry for inspiration, motivation, and hope. With Tom’s innovation, Ziglar has become the go-to resource!

Tom’s Links:
Website: https://www.ziglar.com/
“10 Leadership Virtues for Disruptive Times” by Tom Ziglar: https://amzn.to/35jwD7y
LinkedIn (Tom’s): https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-ziglar/
LinkedIn (Company): https://www.linkedin.com/company/ziglar-inc/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ZigZiglar
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheZigZiglar
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thezigziglar/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWd_FBG3nwrVVCP13AW1sNw

Key Quotes:
1. “You can’t mimic the leaders before you.”
2. “You can have everything in life you want if you’ll just help enough other people get what they want.” – Zig Ziglar
3. “When you solve problems you do well.”
4. “If standard of living is your goal quality of life almost never goes up. If quality of life is your goal your standard of living almost always goes up.” – Zig Ziglar
5. “The biggest challenge is a leadership mindset.”
6. “A top performer can work for anyone from anywhere.”
7. “If you want to build your business with top performers then you’re going to have to do things that attract top performers.”
8. “Coach leaders choreograph the dance between autonomy and authority.”
9. “Quality of life is now primary importance.”
10. “Quality of life equals quality of performance.”
11. “When you’re solid in your why then that gives you purpose and calmness and stability.”
12. “There’s a difference between short term confidence and long term confidence.”
13. “Long term confidence comes from learning and growth.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“10 Leadership Virtues for Disruptive Times” by Tom Ziglar: https://amzn.to/35jwD7y
“The Trust Edge” by David Horsager: https://amzn.to/35EzEPM
“Choose To Win” by Tom Ziglar: https://amzn.to/3K6xyqz
“The Black Swan” by Nassim Nicholas Taleb: https://amzn.to/3CcqZ3e

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

[david_horsager]: Welcome to the trusted leader Show. it’s David Horsager and I have a

[david_horsager]: special guest. He is

[david_horsager]: on his own amazing. He also happens to be the son of the world’s greatest

[david_horsager]: motivator. I grew up listening to ▁zig. ▁zigler, and I was transformed by

[david_horsager]: him. My parents listened. his positive compelling message that had takeaways

[david_horsager]: that have made me who I am. In many ways, I’m grateful for our pure

[david_horsager]: friendship. We do some similar, but very aligned, Uh, work in in different

[david_horsager]: parts of the world, But please welcome Tom Zigler, thanks for being here.

[tom_ziglar]: David, Gra, to be on. Thanks for having me A been a Fa of yours for a long time,

[tom_ziglar]: so I’m excited to be here with you today.

[david_horsager]: I’m grateful, very, very grateful, grateful you know for for you, It’s

[david_horsager]: certainly in your own right. I think I got to got to preread your your first

[david_horsager]: book and endorse it is full of nuggets and takeaways and inspiration. and

[david_horsager]: we’ going to talk a little bit today about your newest book, Twelve

[david_horsager]: Leadership Virtues for disruptive times Before we get there, Many know your

[david_horsager]: dad, Uh, some are younger, and maybe don’t know him as well, but also just

[david_horsager]: tell us a little bit about you. Uh, you know, what are some things people

[david_horsager]: don’t know about Tom? ▁ziggler,

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, so gosh, uh, going way back in time. Uh, when I got out of college, I

[tom_ziglar]: wanted to be a professional golfer

[tom_ziglar]: and so I started working at the company to support my golf habit.

[tom_ziglar]: So Dad, uh, of course, you know, he had this amazing company and I was in the

[tom_ziglar]: warehouse shipping uh audio cassette tapes and V. H. S,

[tom_ziglar]: and then moved over to production, and then realized that the people who play

[tom_ziglar]: professional golf are really good, and I wasn’t there yet

[tom_ziglar]: moved into sales and just loved it. It was kind of in thes. I guess, and you

[tom_ziglar]: know, just kind of got into sales andles leadership and been with the company

[tom_ziglar]: now

[tom_ziglar]: over thirty five

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[tom_ziglar]: years. Um

[tom_ziglar]: seems like, Seems like that seems like a

[tom_ziglar]: long time, doesn’t it?

[david_horsager]: How has it changed?

[tom_ziglar]: Oh, wow, it’s like. Um, everything’s the same and everything’s completely

[tom_ziglar]: different.

[tom_ziglar]: Dad passed away almost a little over nine years ago, and before that you know,

[tom_ziglar]: his speaking had wound down and everything. And so the way W. the you know, our

[tom_ziglar]: brand and what we were known for, Uh, wasn’t gonna

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: be the future. and well, our brand would be the same, but how we did business

[tom_ziglar]: would be different, because Dad, as you know, was a force of nature when he

[tom_ziglar]: would speak, you know, I think for thirty years over thirty events a year would

[tom_ziglar]: have more than twelve to fifteen thousand at each event. That’s that’s never

[tom_ziglar]: goingnna happen again, Right And so people would go. They’d be inspired. They’d

[tom_ziglar]: reach out. Hey, what else you know? How can we uh, bring this message into our

[tom_ziglar]: company And so the company built up around that well when you have a personality

[tom_ziglar]: driven business

[tom_ziglar]: and a leader like that. Uh, and they’re no longer on the stage right,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: They’re no longer doing it. Then you’ve gotta figure out. Okay, what are you

[tom_ziglar]: gonna do and David? Um, Dad told myself and my sister something that we didn’t

[tom_ziglar]: understand until he passed away,

[tom_ziglar]: and that was he said. You’re never gonna know true freedom until I’m gone.

[tom_ziglar]: You know what he meant by that is, we were there to support him to help his

[tom_ziglar]: message.

[tom_ziglar]: And so when you take when in leadership as you know, Uh, you can’t mimic the

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Hm,

[tom_ziglar]: leaders before you, because you’ve got different personality skills experiences.

[tom_ziglar]: You’ve got a. You’ve got to maximize who you are right. you’ve got to.

[tom_ziglar]: otherwise, people, you won’t be transparent, people.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: they won’t believe what you say because you’re trying to act like somebody

[tom_ziglar]: they won’t believe what you say because you’re trying to act like somebody

[tom_ziglar]: you’re not

[tom_ziglar]: you’re not

[tom_ziglar]: And so I had to dig in and figure out.

[tom_ziglar]: Okay, what do I love? What am I passion? About? What are my unique gifts? And

[tom_ziglar]: that’s what

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: Dad was saying, He saying, You’re really going to

[tom_ziglar]: understand

[tom_ziglar]: and and develop

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: your unique gifts when you’ figuring this out to grow it on your own merits,

[tom_ziglar]: rather than support what I built?

[david_horsager]: And now you’re doing licensing certification? Many things that we we do in

[david_horsager]: our own way. But you do have some amazing programs. We’re going to talk

[david_horsager]: about that a little bit later to go back to the beginning and what your

[david_horsager]: company was built on, even while your dad was around, ▁zig. ▁zigler, for

[david_horsager]: those that don’t know, and he was a force of nature, he impacted my life

[david_horsager]: greatly, and uh, of course he is the top front endorsement on my first Wall

[david_horsager]: Street Journal bestelling book, Uh, national, uh, the trust edge, and he,

[david_horsager]: uh, was kind and gracious and I remember the first time I got a meet with

[david_horsager]: him kind of so low in a restaurant in downtown Minneapolis, Minnesota, Um,

[david_horsager]: he and I, and uh, I think the first publisher and so just a really. Uh, I

[david_horsager]: maybe did meet him growing up with my parents going to different, um

[david_horsager]: seminars that he spoke at Are just listening. You felt like he knew him. but

[david_horsager]: uh, what a generous amazing man. And he lived by something that used to live

[david_horsager]: via. That is, you can have everything in life you want. If you’ll just help

[david_horsager]: enough other people get what they want. Give us a couple of thoughts on that

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, I mean that is the the ▁quote. When you go out and you say Hey, what’s

[tom_ziglar]: your favorite? ▁zigzler? ▁quote, Just go google it. You’ll see it like hundreds

[tom_ziglar]: of thousands of times out there, and it’s how we run our business.

[tom_ziglar]: You know you can have everything in life you want. If you help enough other

[tom_ziglar]: people get what they want. And when I talk about coach leadership, which is kind

[tom_ziglar]: of our word for the leader that’s needed in today’s age, Coach leaders

[tom_ziglar]: understand that they achieve their dreams by helping their people

[david_horsager]: Hm.

[tom_ziglar]: achieve their dreams

[tom_ziglar]: right. And it, And it’s it’s a. It’s a interesting thing because it’s very. I

[tom_ziglar]: think Dad borrowed it right out of out of God’s word, uh, out of scripture, and

[tom_ziglar]: and it resonates because it rings true,

[tom_ziglar]: And that is his primary motive. And when he was building the business and in

[tom_ziglar]: sales,

[tom_ziglar]: that’s what allowed him to be not only

[tom_ziglar]: an incredibly effective and influential salesperson, but also with the highest

[tom_ziglar]: moral and

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[tom_ziglar]: ethical standard, because his motive was to find out what they wanted what they

[tom_ziglar]: needed, and to solve that problem. And when you solve problems, uh,

[tom_ziglar]: you do well and there’s a lot of problems out there that

[david_horsager]: There,

[tom_ziglar]: need to be solved. And so

[tom_ziglar]: so that’s that’s where that ▁quote comes from. That’s the basis of everything we

[tom_ziglar]: do.

[david_horsager]: so today. in the newest book Ten leadership virtues for disruptive times

[david_horsager]: Were, we certainly have disruptive times and yet change has been around. I

[david_horsager]: mean, I think people could. we think it’s so unique and of course Corona

[david_horsager]: virus, and of course you know all these things. but you know what. There

[david_horsager]: were massive challenges when as an example this country was formed. There

[david_horsager]: were massive challenges in the you know mid eighteen hundreds. There were

[david_horsager]: massive challenges in the early nineteen hundreds. There there’s been other

[david_horsager]: pandemics and other. You know high change times and yet we. We do get

[david_horsager]: focused on our time. It’s certainly still disruptive. What. Let’s let’s talk

[david_horsager]: a little bit about the impetus for this book and then get into a couple

[david_horsager]: takeaways from it.

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, so uh, I was already when I wrote Choose to win. We had a two book

[tom_ziglar]: agreement with the publisher Thomas Nelson and I said. I don’t know what the

[tom_ziglar]: second book’s going to be, and they said That’s okay. You got a year to figure

[tom_ziglar]: it out, And

[tom_ziglar]: so at the end of two thousand, Uh nineteen, I’m starting to write the book and

[tom_ziglar]: then two thousand and twenty comes. Everything

[david_horsager]: Yes,

[tom_ziglar]: changes

[tom_ziglar]: and publishing timelines got delayed and I realz. wait a second. This book needs

[tom_ziglar]: to be about all the disruption, all the change. Everything that’s going on right

[tom_ziglar]: now and I just have this imaginary um

[tom_ziglar]: vision in my head. I mean, imagine, at the end of two thousand nineteen, Amazon

[tom_ziglar]: is sitting in their strategic Uh, sales and marketing meeting and they have this

[tom_ziglar]: goal to increase their market share of people over seventy by five percent over

[tom_ziglar]: the next ten years,

[tom_ziglar]: And then by April one they’ve increased it two hundred percent

[tom_ziglar]: right.

[david_horsager]: yep,

[tom_ziglar]: That’s that’s disruption. We all got sent home. Uh, life started changing,

[tom_ziglar]: and then something interesting happened and that was

[tom_ziglar]: on a large scale, and and you’ll hear people talk about it and seem to Le wrote

[tom_ziglar]: a book called The Black Swan And and what he did was He studied Uh world wars

[tom_ziglar]: and pandemics and financial crises

[tom_ziglar]: to see who does the best

[tom_ziglar]: in times of a Black Swan event like the Pandemic, And so I started digging into

[tom_ziglar]: that book

[tom_ziglar]: and the people who do the best are the ones who let go of the way it was,

[tom_ziglar]: and then they take a little bit. Of information from one view and then a little

[tom_ziglar]: bit of information from the other view, and then they go out and do life, and so

[tom_ziglar]: in the context of the day, the people who do the best they might get five or ten

[tom_ziglar]: minutes of liberal news and five or ten minutes of conservative news. and then

[tom_ziglar]: they go and do life,

[tom_ziglar]: and it allows them to have that balance to make good decisions. Well, what

[tom_ziglar]: happened when the pandemics sent everybody home and people they love started

[tom_ziglar]: getting sick, and family members may have passed away, and their job became

[tom_ziglar]: insecure.

[tom_ziglar]: Suddenly They wanted their life to matter, and to count, they wanted to do

[tom_ziglar]: something

[tom_ziglar]: that filled their soul.

[david_horsager]: hm,

[tom_ziglar]: They wanted to have a career or have a business.

[tom_ziglar]: That really made them feel like they were serving a higher cause or purpose than

[tom_ziglar]: who they are Now. Here’s what’s interesting, and I know you heard this from Dad

[tom_ziglar]: in the seventies. He had this ▁quote, that he would say often,

[tom_ziglar]: If standard of living is your goal. The quality of life almost never goes up.

[tom_ziglar]: If quality of life is your goal, your standard of living almost always goes up,

[tom_ziglar]: and literally as a nation, as in in a global.

[tom_ziglar]: That was the thought that went around people’s hearts and minds is. Wait a

[tom_ziglar]: second.

[tom_ziglar]: Why I am on this treadmill,

[tom_ziglar]: burning all this energy, you know, and everything centered around work.

[tom_ziglar]: When my, my, my physical and mental health, my family, my faith, friends, those

[tom_ziglar]: are all more important. and so that shift

[david_horsager]: mhm, Mhm.

[tom_ziglar]: happened

[tom_ziglar]: and people started making decisions in a different way and then productivity

[tom_ziglar]: went up. when people went home. There’s a hundred and twenty five million

[tom_ziglar]: workers in the United States. Sixty million of those jobs can be done from home.

[tom_ziglar]: That’s just the technology

[david_horsager]: Let let’s talk about that because there’s some things I really want to get

[david_horsager]: into around coach leaders and everything else, but productivity. There’s an

[david_horsager]: argument on both sides of that, Some people are more productive at home.

[david_horsager]: There is also a lot of new research saying they’re not more productive at

[david_horsager]: home in certain cases and ways. What what do you think about this? What? how

[david_horsager]: do we? How do we? And maybe the question is is just I’m going off the rails

[david_horsager]: a little bit from what we’re going to do. But how do you think people lead

[david_horsager]: well in a virtual environment too? How do we? How do we keep productivity

[david_horsager]: high? Because what I’m seeing is a lot of new data. Word’s not as high as

[david_horsager]: they expected just a few months ago. And I think it was for the first six

[david_horsager]: months. you know.

[tom_ziglar]: and it

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[tom_ziglar]: varies uh, and it varies by market segment. So if you’ve got kids at home, uh,

[tom_ziglar]: that interrupt the work flow. That’s a challenge. If you’re single and you use

[tom_ziglar]: the workforce as a major connector for your social scene, that can be a

[tom_ziglar]: challenge.

[tom_ziglar]: I think the biggest challenge though is a leadership mindset, Um,

[tom_ziglar]: the old style topped down. Do it because I said so, Command and Control leader

[tom_ziglar]: who likes to look at output rather than outcome, who, uh, doesn’t really dig

[tom_ziglar]: into what motivates and and, and and understands the dreams and goals of each

[tom_ziglar]: person on their team. That person, they might be okay in an office environment,

[tom_ziglar]: Leading.

[tom_ziglar]: they do not do well on a camera, Um. And so that’s a productivity challenge.

[tom_ziglar]: and then people who, uh, the people who are winning, Uh, people with

[tom_ziglar]: disabilities, people with energy issues, people who have a hard time commuting,

[tom_ziglar]: Uh, a lot of women. I think I read a statistic where three million women from

[tom_ziglar]: the pandemic went home and a huge percentage of ‘ are not going back to

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: the old job,

[tom_ziglar]: And the reason is is they got their life back and they figured out there are

[tom_ziglar]: other ways to make an income, And so there more. I think small businesses have

[tom_ziglar]: been started Uh in the last year by this group. Then it? I think in any time in

[tom_ziglar]: history I could be wrong on that, but I think I remember that. Uh, and it’s

[tom_ziglar]: because they see the balance in life of what’s going on, so it’s not without

[tom_ziglar]: challenge now. I think Gallopp just came out with a study that said The number’s

[tom_ziglar]: gonna be about thirty seven percent, So thirty seven percent in the shake out

[tom_ziglar]: are go to be working either remote or hybrid when this all shakes out. And so

[tom_ziglar]: here’s the question. Uh, I was. I was talking to a friend and and and he said,

[tom_ziglar]: Uh, gosh, you know, he sells technology and his friends, Uh testing equipment

[tom_ziglar]: for Siemens and he’s I said, How’s it going, and he said, Well, my friend’s

[tom_ziglar]: doing fantastic. He’s made more money in the last two years than he’s ever made,

[tom_ziglar]: and I go. What does he do And he goes well, his whole career. he’s traveled

[tom_ziglar]: three nights a week, a lot of overseas trip, full day, meetings and client

[tom_ziglar]: offices around this technology. He hasn’t been on one trip

[david_horsager]: Hey,

[tom_ziglar]: in two years

[tom_ziglar]: and I go. Really. he goes. Yeah, he spends half his time at the beach and and

[tom_ziglar]: his beach house and half his time in his main house

[tom_ziglar]: and he goes, he’s doing. He’s doing great and I go. Well, let me think about

[tom_ziglar]: this for a second. So what you’re saying is he gets to pick what he eats, and

[tom_ziglar]: when he eats he gets to determine his exercise schedule. He gets to spend his

[tom_ziglar]: time with those he values and loves the most, which is his family, and he can

[tom_ziglar]: have three meetings with three different clients on the same day, When it used

[tom_ziglar]: to take three days to have one meeting with one client. Well, dad, this is the

[tom_ziglar]: perfect scenario for somebody like that

[tom_ziglar]: And so here’s the reality is a top performer can work for anyone

[tom_ziglar]: from anywhere,

[tom_ziglar]: And so I think organizations have to understand that If if you want to build

[tom_ziglar]: your business with top performers

[tom_ziglar]: then you’re gonna have to do things that attract top performers.

[tom_ziglar]: Apple, Uh, at the middle of the summer, Uh, before this new wave hit, they sen

[tom_ziglar]: out a letter, And and it said to all the people who’ moved away from

[tom_ziglar]: headquarters. Hey, it’s time to come back. We want you to move back to to Uh,

[tom_ziglar]: California,

[tom_ziglar]: and the next day they got a letter signed by eighty saying we’re not coming back

[tom_ziglar]: And that just grew and grew.

[tom_ziglar]: And so I don’t know. What do you think? The number one brand in the world where

[tom_ziglar]: everybody in that field wants to work

[david_horsager]: hm,

[tom_ziglar]: for says Come backack and these people say No.

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[tom_ziglar]: What is that? What does that tell you? Is it for everybody? No, it’s not for

[tom_ziglar]: everybody. I think it’s eighty four. Ninety four percent of people want to work

[tom_ziglar]: a hybrid at least one or

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[tom_ziglar]: two days a week.

[tom_ziglar]: Who can,

[tom_ziglar]: And I think that’s where

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[tom_ziglar]: going to settle, but I think there are productivity issues.

[david_horsager]: So how do we lead in that H? What’s one thing we do because there is

[david_horsager]: research oning Connection Goes down. There is research saying. Uh, you know

[david_horsager]: what people? I mean to me, we have to focus leading Well, virtually we have

[david_horsager]: to make it really outcomes based like you’re paid for outcomes. That’s e,

[david_horsager]: relatively easy. but in some roles they might not have like the sales

[david_horsager]: outcome. And so how do we kind of you know Lead well, I mean, you still do

[david_horsager]: have people. all of a sudden. They’ve got three jobs that neith. None of

[david_horsager]: them know that the other that they have. These three jobs are getting

[david_horsager]: incomes from. You know, Um, because they’re just at home, kind of being able

[david_horsager]: to run all three. You know. so um it. it’s uh, having we know high trust

[david_horsager]: environments have a healthy form of accountability. Uh. you know, I guess

[david_horsager]: for leaders that’s still a challenge of Ha. Do you have any other how we

[david_horsager]: actually create healthy connection and accountability in a hybrid

[david_horsager]: environment?

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, so I have a a coach leadership model and it’s got six words on it and I

[tom_ziglar]: think you’ going to like the words. Uh, So in the middle, so this is the change.

[tom_ziglar]: Okay, this is what’ elevated. The two words in the middle are autonomy and

[tom_ziglar]: authority,

[tom_ziglar]: And so what’s happened is that people really wanty.

[tom_ziglar]: It gets construed is

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: flexibility. Uh, they want to work when they want how they want where they want.

[tom_ziglar]: Harvard Businessviw came out and said what people want is

[tom_ziglar]: they don’t want to be. They don’t want to be told. Uh, hey, yeah, we’re going to

[tom_ziglar]: work in the office Tuesday through Thursday. They want to be able to pick what

[tom_ziglar]: days they want in the office. Well now, on the other side, we’ve got authority

[tom_ziglar]: leaders managers and they gotta get the job done. They gotta get the project

[tom_ziglar]: done and they’ve got a team of people who have to work together with trust with

[tom_ziglar]: great communication in order to have it happen And so so it’s hurting cats. So

[tom_ziglar]: how can you give everybody autonomy and then have the authority do it? So on the

[tom_ziglar]: team members side, I’ve kind of made the two words for team members. They’re

[tom_ziglar]: purpose driven team members and pleasure driven team members,

[tom_ziglar]: purpose. Uh, these are the top performer. They’re there for a reason. They got a

[tom_ziglar]: bigger goal or dream. This is a stepping stone to where they want to go. Their

[tom_ziglar]: career is is thought out what they want to accomplish. They want to be a more

[tom_ziglar]: capable person tomorrow than they are today. The pleasure driven, Uh, and of

[tom_ziglar]: course everybody’s on a spectrum and we might be pleasure driven one day

[tom_ziglar]: and and purpose the next. I’m not saying that we’re stuck or we always act the

[tom_ziglar]: same. Uh. It’s ▁ziggler. we call them ▁zombies. Uh, Gallop calls them the

[tom_ziglar]: disengaged, So the new Gallop study came on on that.

[tom_ziglar]: Uh, thirty four percent of workers are engaged.

[tom_ziglar]: fifty percent are disengaged and sixteen percent are actively disengaged, and I

[tom_ziglar]: call the actively disengaged. They’re the biters. You know. That’s how that’s

[tom_ziglar]: how ▁zombies infect others right. They’re toxic, and so basically they make

[tom_ziglar]: decisions that suit their personal needs. They do as little work as as they have

[tom_ziglar]: to to keep their job on the leadership side. I think there’s two kinds of

[tom_ziglar]: leaders. There’s the accountability leader, and then there’s the control leader.

[tom_ziglar]: A control leader is do it because I said

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: so Delegate command and control. Very uh, results oriented. What have you done

[tom_ziglar]: for me lately? I, by symbol for them is the T Rex.

[tom_ziglar]: They got sharp teeth and

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: short arms right, They bite your head off. They le fear and short arms means

[tom_ziglar]: they keep everything close. The accountability leader

[tom_ziglar]: is what I call the coach leaders and I use A. An illustration from Dock Rivers

[tom_ziglar]: and Dock Rivers is one of the one of the great N, B. A coaches. And they, they

[tom_ziglar]: asked him, they said, How do you? How do you lead people who make more money

[tom_ziglar]: than you? And he said, Well, I just have a conversation with him and they said

[tom_ziglar]: What do you say? And he said, Well, I ask him, What are your goals for the year?

[tom_ziglar]: And of course, in the N. B, A you get A, you get a contract and your agent

[tom_ziglar]: negotiates it, And and you know, if you, whatever position you play, you get

[tom_ziglar]: bonuses on number of rebounds or number of points or minutes played. And if you

[tom_ziglar]: make the all star team, and he says, I just let him talk. I let him tell me what

[tom_ziglar]: their goals and dreams are, And then I ask him what it means to them. Like If

[tom_ziglar]: you get those, What what does that mean to you?

[tom_ziglar]: And then he said I ask him,

[tom_ziglar]: Is it okay if I hold you accountable

[tom_ziglar]: to your goals,

[tom_ziglar]: And so the ownership of the goal of the plan is on the player,

[tom_ziglar]: right, the the? the? He didn’t tell him what to do.

[tom_ziglar]: They told him what they wanted and then he co created a plane with them to

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: help him get it,

[tom_ziglar]: And so

[david_horsager]: One, it,

[tom_ziglar]: here’s the. here’s what I’m getting at

[tom_ziglar]: Is

[tom_ziglar]: we have automy and authority. What people want is autonomy and we’ve got

[tom_ziglar]: authority. So coach leaders choreograph the dance

[tom_ziglar]: between autonomy and authority. And so here’s a coach leader’s purpose.

[tom_ziglar]: It’s to equip support, encourage, develop

[tom_ziglar]: the top performer in such a way that they become. They co create a plan go, so

[tom_ziglar]: they become a better, more capable team member, top performer tomorrow than they

[tom_ziglar]: are today, for the sole purpose of giving them as much autonomy as possible.

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[tom_ziglar]: We want Navy seals on our team.

[tom_ziglar]: We, we want to say, here’s the mission. Go get it. How can I help? That’s what

[tom_ziglar]: we want to say now, top performers. this is really interesting. Top performers

[tom_ziglar]: realize when they have a coach leader and they’re grateful for it, and they will

[tom_ziglar]: literally go to the coach leader and they’ll say I’ve never had someone believe

[tom_ziglar]: more in me than I believe in myself.

[david_horsager]: how do you hire the? How do you hire

[tom_ziglar]: Please.

[david_horsager]: the top performer?

[tom_ziglar]: Well, you search ’em uh, as you can, but then you develop ’em

[tom_ziglar]: ’cause it’s it’s hard, right you? So When you, when you bring a new hire on,

[tom_ziglar]: your goal is that they will become a top performer, which means two. Th. There’s

[tom_ziglar]: two things you’re hoping on. They have the ingredients to become one and they

[tom_ziglar]: have the desire to become

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[tom_ziglar]: one.

[tom_ziglar]: Now remember what I said about ▁zombies.

[tom_ziglar]: What a ▁zombie. It’s somebody with the brain disease.

[tom_ziglar]: ▁zombies. Don’t care because they have no dreams,

[tom_ziglar]: And so what a coach leader does is taps in to that team member and says, What’s

[tom_ziglar]: your dream? What’s your goal? If you do Fantastic, do you want to make more

[tom_ziglar]: money this year?

[tom_ziglar]: Fantastic. I want to pay you more money. In order for that to happen,

[tom_ziglar]: your contribution to the profitability and growth of the business. The team,

[tom_ziglar]: whatever their role is,

[tom_ziglar]: has to, has to merit an increase in compensation.

[tom_ziglar]: How do you? What do you think? Do you want to put together a plan so you can

[tom_ziglar]: make more money?

[tom_ziglar]: So here’s a. There’s kind of a hot

[david_horsager]: okay,

[tom_ziglar]: topic right now.

[tom_ziglar]: I. i. i, uh, I have a d. E. I coach. You know, diversity, equity and inclusion,

[tom_ziglar]: And and I’m doing it because I’m following Dad. You know, Dad, when he would

[tom_ziglar]: speak,

[tom_ziglar]: he didn’t care,

[tom_ziglar]: Um,

[tom_ziglar]: what the audience brought into the room, right, He was never upset about them

[tom_ziglar]: being, you know, high school kids or seventy years old or salespeople, or or

[tom_ziglar]: technicians. right, All he wanted to know is how can I best communicate to this

[tom_ziglar]: group of people

[tom_ziglar]: so that they received the information and take action on and their life has

[tom_ziglar]: changed. He never held it against them. What their past experience was. Where

[tom_ziglar]: they came from. What profile they? He didn’t care. He only wanted to know. How

[tom_ziglar]: can I reach the people in the room?

[tom_ziglar]: And so? um, so that’s so. I’m like. I wanna reach everybody. It doesn’t matter

[tom_ziglar]: where you come from. And so uh, my coach. her name is Um. Michelle. She’s from

[tom_ziglar]: Puerto Rico. She grew up on the East Coast. She did corporate America. She’s our

[tom_ziglar]: age and she’s like. Well, how does a coach leader help somebody like me

[tom_ziglar]: and I said, What do you mean ’cause I need a context and she said, Well, when I

[tom_ziglar]: ended in the corporate world,

[tom_ziglar]: my culture was I would never volunteer for a project. I would never go into Uh,

[tom_ziglar]: the manager’s office and say I need a raise And the first time I went to New

[tom_ziglar]: York City, I was thinking I was twenty and we’re in Grand Central Station. I go

[tom_ziglar]: to the pizza place

[tom_ziglar]: and the pizza guy says What do you want and I hesitated, and the guy behind me

[tom_ziglar]: ordered right over my shoulder. And you know it’s and you when you’re from

[tom_ziglar]: Texas. That’s a culture

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[tom_ziglar]: shock, right. it’s not. it’s not right or wrong. it’s just the way it is.

[tom_ziglar]: And so she says, How would a coach leader help me? Because it took me years

[tom_ziglar]: to figure out how to stand up for myself. How to put myself in a position to get

[tom_ziglar]: that and I said,

[tom_ziglar]: Here thing, a coach leader never lets that happen, Because day one, when you

[tom_ziglar]: work for a coach leader, they meet with you one on one and they say, Why are you

[tom_ziglar]: here? What’s your goal? What’s your dream? Do you want to be making more money a

[tom_ziglar]: year from now? Do you want a promotion? What is it that you want And then when

[tom_ziglar]: they tell you, you say, why do you want it?

[tom_ziglar]: And you dig in into what’s the driver? What is it that gets them going?

[tom_ziglar]: Because here’s the reality. Every person on your team’s got a different

[tom_ziglar]: experience, a different background, a different set of limiting beliefs, a

[tom_ziglar]: different culture, a different perspective,

[tom_ziglar]: And when you get all those things out on the table and let them know that you

[tom_ziglar]: are on their side

[tom_ziglar]: and you’re gonna help them grow. You’re not going to create the plan. They’re

[tom_ziglar]: gonna create it with your guidance.

[tom_ziglar]: And so it’s real simple.

[tom_ziglar]: a great coaching question. What attitudes can you demonstrate that will help you

[tom_ziglar]: to be more effective in your job role?

[tom_ziglar]: Well, you ask different personality styles that, and they’re going to give you

[tom_ziglar]: different answers right ’cause it’s not one size. It’s all. if I’m in a very

[tom_ziglar]: out. You know if I’m a people person out, go and talk a lot. I’m probably going

[tom_ziglar]: to say. Well, I need to ask better questions and

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: listen.

[tom_ziglar]: you know somebody who’s ▁quiet is like. Well, I’m gonna have to raise my energy

[tom_ziglar]: level right, So it’s different for everybody. And so that’s that’s to me when W,

[tom_ziglar]: when a coach leader

[tom_ziglar]: gets involved and knows this,

[tom_ziglar]: they, they, they know, the goals and dreams of the people on their team. And

[tom_ziglar]: then here’s the other sea change that’s happened

[tom_ziglar]: since the pandemic, And that is, Quality of life.

[tom_ziglar]: is now primary importance in people’s thought process and decision making.

[tom_ziglar]: the number one issue in big business today. As far as their concerns, looking

[tom_ziglar]: down from H, r is the health and well of people, because if that suffers,

[tom_ziglar]: productivity and performance goes down

[tom_ziglar]: this great resignation that we’re in that I call the greatagination A burn

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: out

[tom_ziglar]: its short staff. It’s people doing. They don’t know when the day ends and the

[tom_ziglar]: day begins. This takes a. a. Reagining the way,

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[tom_ziglar]: do business

[tom_ziglar]: right, and leaders have to step up and fill the void, And that means Hey

[tom_ziglar]: how you doing

[tom_ziglar]: feel

[tom_ziglar]: And when somebody knows that you care about their quality of life as well as

[tom_ziglar]: their performance, and you do things proactively to increase their balance.

[tom_ziglar]: Successor, to make it more likely

[tom_ziglar]: their performance is going to go

[tom_ziglar]: upallity

[david_horsager]: What

[david_horsager]: Y

[david_horsager]: it

[tom_ziglar]: performance.

[tom_ziglar]: performance.

[david_horsager]: so? In the book and

[david_horsager]: we, we went right through a lot of great things here. We, in a touch on a

[david_horsager]: couple of things here, the coach leader, People can learn more about that in

[david_horsager]: the book which is ten leadership virtues, Four disruptive times, talk about

[david_horsager]: different virtes from kindness and selflessness, respect, humility. boy,

[david_horsager]: That’s critical today. isn’t it? Hum? what would happen if people would

[david_horsager]: humble themselves And speaking of, uh, bring incription into it. God opposes

[david_horsager]: the proud and we are seeing plenty opposition to the proud. In many ways,

[david_horsager]: self control. looking for the best On a touch on one. Let’s look at number

[david_horsager]: five for just like a one minute snippet of self control. Not many people are

[david_horsager]: ding self control. They’re thinking. What kind of

[david_horsager]: I? I just don’t see people thinking that way, And yet we know great leaders

[david_horsager]: actually are great at controlling their own wants and not uh, taking instant

[david_horsager]: gratification. We could say, tell me about that from your perspective.

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, so self control is actually, it’s recognized under different names today.

[tom_ziglar]: Uh, we recognize it on airplanes when people get into fights and get kicked off.

[david_horsager]: Oh,

[tom_ziglar]: Uh, I’m actually gonna be doing a a presentation up in up an Oregon to group

[tom_ziglar]: where self control is the big issue because their customer base, no matter what

[tom_ziglar]: they do, half of them get

[tom_ziglar]: upset.

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: And so here’s the thing. This is the way self control feeds out.

[tom_ziglar]: The first thing you’ve gotta know is why do you do what you do? What’s the

[tom_ziglar]: bigger? Why?

[tom_ziglar]: When you’re solid in your why,

[tom_ziglar]: then that gives you purpose and calmness and stability. The second thing is this

[tom_ziglar]: when somebody overreacts in their response to you

[tom_ziglar]: ask yourself this question.

[tom_ziglar]: Would a secure person do that

[tom_ziglar]: and the answers? No, And so I’ve had to train my mind on this, and that is when

[tom_ziglar]: I’m speaking about something or working with somebody, a prospect, a client or

[tom_ziglar]: whatever the case. And they, they kinda go off the deep end.

[tom_ziglar]: I go. That’s not a secure person.

[tom_ziglar]: And let me just tell you the way you respond to someone when you make that

[tom_ziglar]: mental thought, that’s not a secure person. It’s totally different. They’re not

[tom_ziglar]: attacking you. they’re they’re burned out. They’re frustrated. something in

[tom_ziglar]: their life is going sideways, And so what does that allow you to do Is the

[tom_ziglar]: leader?

[tom_ziglar]: It allows you to be present in the situation without escalating it,

[tom_ziglar]: and to give a response that moves somebody a much higher likelihood in the right

[tom_ziglar]: direction, And that’s really what I was talking about,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: Self control in the book Is leaders today, they get frustrated by

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[tom_ziglar]: the change, the disruption and they go off. They’re digging their own, whole,

[tom_ziglar]: people need stability and positivity.

[tom_ziglar]: And and there’s a difference between short term confidence and long term

[tom_ziglar]: confidence, And this is a big one for leaders. Short term confidence is results

[tom_ziglar]: oriented. What did you do for me yesterday? Well when your whole business cycle

[tom_ziglar]: changes because of supply change issues,

[tom_ziglar]: what did you do for me yesterday? If that’s where your confidence comes from,

[tom_ziglar]: it’s going to be a hard season, but

[tom_ziglar]: long term confidence comes from learning and growth. If you’ve developed a team

[tom_ziglar]: of people

[tom_ziglar]: who thrive on learning and growth, then disruption is your friend,

[tom_ziglar]: and it gives you an edge

[tom_ziglar]: because you look at disruption as an opportunity to serve more people to figure

[tom_ziglar]: out new ways to do it. Long term confidence comes from the humility of. I don’t

[tom_ziglar]: know the answer. I don’t have to know the answer. I know how to ask questions,

[tom_ziglar]: and I’ve got a team of learners and growers who know how to work together and

[tom_ziglar]: together we will get this done.

[david_horsager]: there’s so much more in the book Ten leadership Virtues for disruptive

[david_horsager]: times.

[david_horsager]: I would encourage everybody to go back to choose to win. and uh, the great

[david_horsager]: work there and all you’re doing at ▁zigler hey’ ▁zigler dot comt com. We

[david_horsager]: love your family, we love your dad and your mom and the red, as he would

[david_horsager]: say, and just grateful to call you friend. Anywhere else we can find you

[david_horsager]: the Web, or where can connect with you?

[tom_ziglar]: Yeah, Facebook, uh, the website and ▁zigler dot com. I’m on there and I do

[tom_ziglar]: something kind of weird. I give out my email, So Tom at ▁zigler dot com. So

[david_horsager]: Great, fill it up.

[tom_ziglar]: love it. thank you, sir.

[david_horsager]: Well, it has been a treat to have you on. We could talk for hours and I’m

[david_horsager]: just uh. yeah, grateful for you and your family. We always end with one

[david_horsager]: question on this show. The question is who is a leader you would trust And

[david_horsager]: why

[david_horsager]: or who is a leader you trust, And why?

[tom_ziglar]: Well, uh, you know. of course, dad, uh, and I don’t know if that’s a valid

[tom_ziglar]: answer be cause he’s he’s uh graduated. He’s gotten his, his, his, Uh, diploma,

[tom_ziglar]: uh,

[tom_ziglar]: but a leader I would trust is

[tom_ziglar]: someone who has a combination of

[tom_ziglar]: selflessness,

[tom_ziglar]: humility,

[tom_ziglar]: kindness,

[tom_ziglar]: and their motive is to understand

[tom_ziglar]: what it is in life that I need, and to be a conduit to

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[tom_ziglar]: help me get there.

[tom_ziglar]: That’s that’s who I trust. Um, and I work hard for those.

[david_horsager]: well said

[david_horsager]: well, thank you, Tom. thank you every for listening. This is Ben the trusted

[david_horsager]: Leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 71: Dr. Kimberly Harms on How To Lead Your Team Through Grief

In this episode, David sits down with Dr. Kimberly Harms, Former Grief Counselor, Civil Mediator, Author, and Speaker, to discuss how to lead your team through grief.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Dr. Kim’s Bio:
Kim Harms has been around the block in dentistry and in life. She was the first woman President of the Minnesota Dental Association and worked for 21 years as a National Spokesperson and Consumer Advisor for the American Dental Association. Dr. Harms is no stranger to grief, she lost her mother and her son to suicide and her husband to heart failure precipitated by the death of their son. She currently works with her dental attorney daughters as a professional speaker and author with a focus on conflict and grief management for dental professionals. She also works with Books for Africa and has helped to send over 200,000 books to 40 Eric Harms Memorial Libraries in Rwanda, where she has learned much from the world’s foremost experts in grief recovery.

Dr. Kim’s Links:
Website: https://thedentalmediator.com/
“Emotional Emergency Handbook” by Dr. Kimberly Harms: https://www.drkimberlyharms.com/books/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-harms-bb524666/

Key Quotes:
1. “Learn how to lead your team through grief.”
2. “Rwandans are the grief experts of the world.”
3. “Grief is different with every person.”
4. “Processing grief is the hard part.”
5. “You are enough.”
6. “Finding joy again in life does not diminish your love for the person that you lost.”
7. “Focus on the conflict. Focus on the issue. Take the people out of it.”
8. “Get the story from both sides.”
9. “Conflict that is not resolved or addressed just metastasizes.”
10. “Trust is huge.”
11. “A mediator is kept busy because of a lack of trust.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Emotional Emergency Handbook” by Dr. Kimberly Harms: https://www.drkimberlyharms.com/books/
“The Trust Edge” by David Horsager: https://amzn.to/3p7wUB6
Books for Africa: https://www.booksforafrica.org/

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

[david_horsager]: Welcome to the trusted leader. Show it’s David Horsager and I have a

[david_horsager]: special Gu. She’s a dear friend. It is Dr. Kimberly Harms. Thank you

[david_horsager]: so much for joining us.

[kim_harms]: Thank you for asking me.

[david_horsager]: Yes, so if you don’t know Dr. Kimberly, she was the first woman

[david_horsager]: president of the Minnesota dental Association. She is practicsing, and she’s

[david_horsager]: been director of Uh, dental facilities and organizations all around. She has

[david_horsager]: some other things we’re gonna talk about, though, And she really I, You

[david_horsager]: know, she’s written books on really grief emergencies mediation. One of her

[david_horsager]: books is Neutralize your Nightmare about kind of mediation and conflict.

[david_horsager]: We’re going to talk about that and emotional emergency handbook, Really

[david_horsager]: creating a safe environment in the midst of emergencies and big challenges

[david_horsager]: that we all face. And I think they’re very all very important for leaders.

[david_horsager]: We’re also going touch touch on. you know, Outside of you know being a

[david_horsager]: doctor and all your expertise as both a leader

[david_horsager]: and dentist and doctor, you’ve also

[david_horsager]: have some experiences. I think that can speak to all of us, and that is loss

[david_horsager]: and grief and challenge, And you know we’ve all had whether we’re losing in

[david_horsager]: a, you know, an employee or losing a A A comp. You know, a

[david_horsager]: a, a family member, right or all these things. So Um, she lost her mother

[david_horsager]: too early.

[david_horsager]: Tragically. She lost her brilliant amazing son to suicide and she lost her

[david_horsager]: husband, uh, too early, and, among other things, but she can speak to this

[david_horsager]: in a real way, so uh, once again I just wantnna. kind of set you up. There’s

[david_horsager]: so much more to who you are, Uh, Doctor Kim, But um, thanks for being here.

[kim_harms]: Oh, thank you, David.

[david_horsager]: anything y. go ahead? Yeah, Any anything else that you wouldd say sets

[david_horsager]: usrself, like we should really know this about Doctor Kim before get into

[david_horsager]: the conversation.

[kim_harms]: Well, I think i. I. I worked in a quite a bit in my profession of dentistry in my

[kim_harms]: first life, and I had a unfortunate a ridiculopathy of. I had some nerve damage

[kim_harms]: in my drilling fingers of all places, and so I had to kind of come into a second

[kim_harms]: career and my daughter, uh, Hilary, uh, both my daughters attorneys and they went

[kim_harms]: into deal law, so I’m working now for them in the area of Um. Dental transitions

[kim_harms]: transition from one purchaser one owner to another owner, and I work with offices

[kim_harms]: managing grief when they’ going to some sort of a catastrophic loss. If every

[kim_harms]: organization, uh, has uh, somebody going through a catastrophic loss at some time

[kim_harms]: or another, And if you, if you haven’t gone through one yet, you’re either going

[kim_harms]: to die first or lose somebody that you love. So this is a universal concept. In

[kim_harms]: fact, we’re kind of going through a global grief right now,

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: Uh with this pandemic, So I talked about grief and loss and conflict management.

[kim_harms]: Uh, within the the profession, dental, and otherwise,

[david_horsager]: I want to get into that because I, I. I, I want to end up with some um, a

[david_horsager]: line work that we both love in East Africa and we’re passionate about. but

[david_horsager]: um, let’s let’s jump into this. This. you know, we. we B. this this pandemic

[david_horsager]: this endemic now, maybe this, Uh, you know, lots of loss. lots of grief. Um,

[david_horsager]: you know we can’t get everything out of all your books out of out of this,

[david_horsager]: but I think we should talk about it because leaders need to understand this,

[david_horsager]: and yet you know what I see. The challenge for leaders at least, is they

[david_horsager]: grieving.

[david_horsager]: Theyre also

[david_horsager]: their team is grieving

[david_horsager]: and they also have pressures from the top to provide and drive the bottom

[david_horsager]: line to be around in a co. you know next quarter So Th you know there’s this

[david_horsager]: big push for certainly

[david_horsager]: humanness, and give people time off and all, and take time off and take care

[david_horsager]: of yourself. And yet they’re They’re also like, and I have to meet the The

[david_horsager]: Quarterarnings or whatever. So how can we think about that as leaders? You

[david_horsager]: know loss and grief right now. What would you be your advice?

[kim_harms]: I think one of the most important things that leaders can do right now is learn

[kim_harms]: how to lead their team through grief. Because it again. it’s a. It’s a. It’s a

[kim_harms]: pandemic of a grief right now, And

[kim_harms]: many times we believe that that the our. our goal is to accomplish a goals of

[kim_harms]: whatever our business is, And we focus on that and we kind of think the emotional

[kim_harms]: issues just take care of themselves, but they don’t. They don’t the emotional

[kim_harms]: issues that that are going on amongst our team members. The other people that

[kim_harms]: we’re working with Uh, affect their performance. Their productivity and our

[kim_harms]: ability to manage those emotional issues has a huge effect on team loyalty and

[kim_harms]: and their ability to stay with us. You know, we’ve got some some issues globally.

[kim_harms]: Uh, uh, with with employment we, we are not enough employees to to fill all the

[kim_harms]: jobs that we need them to fill, And I think

[david_horsager]: How would

[kim_harms]: one of the ways you can help them is be loyal is manage them through grief.

[david_horsager]: so? let’s get to a couple tips of. how can I actually lead my team? Or you

[david_horsager]: know help can lead them through grief?

[kim_harms]: Well, the first thing we you need to do is I, I believe you need to include

[kim_harms]: emotional emergencies, which I I call anything that’s goingnna emotionally affect

[kim_harms]: what we do we need. have a plant. just like anything else. Um, how many? How many

[kim_harms]: of you have breve in plans in your work? How many days can someone take off paid

[kim_harms]: or unta unpaid if they have a loss has to be kind of consistent. Uh. I, I really

[kim_harms]: believe that we need to talk about grief. If someone’s going through a difficult

[kim_harms]: time. we need to have a a team meeting. Maybe even before they come back to to

[kim_harms]: find out how we’re going to help them. Um, and then when they get there, ask them

[kim_harms]: how they how you can help them. You need to understand that when you, when you’re

[kim_harms]: going through grief, you might have waves of grief that come back after the after

[kim_harms]: the funeral’s over and you come back to work. you’re not all right. Typically if

[kim_harms]: it’s a catastrophic loss, you’re not all right. So you, we need to have something

[kim_harms]: within our teams where you work together to help that person get through those

[kim_harms]: times when they have a wave of grief that hits some. Uh, you have a lot of

[kim_harms]: postramatic stress that comes back and things they might be going through their

[kim_harms]: day, and all of a sudden something reminds them of their lost loved one, and Bam,

[kim_harms]: they get hit. Um. I had in our office, we had like a crying room upstairs in case

[kim_harms]: somebody uh, needed to just take a moment Uh, after a tough time and you know a

[kim_harms]: little Vizine in the room, little make up remover, Um, where you can get yourself

[kim_harms]: back together and have a plan with the team that. if that person has to take a

[kim_harms]: moment that the rest of the team kind of covers for them, but you have to plan

[david_horsager]: What do?

[kim_harms]: for equal play for those things.

[david_horsager]: Yeah? what do we? What about people that say? I mean, I’ seen leaders

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: and colleagues. Someone has a catastrophic loss.

[david_horsager]: They really,

[david_horsager]: uh, the rest of the team cares about that person, but they don’t know what

[david_horsager]: to do. they like. Should I talk to them? shouldn’t I talk to them? I’m not

[david_horsager]: an expert counselor. I feel like I would do the wrong thing. so then they

[david_horsager]: don’t say anything. What? What about the team? What? what should, or the

[david_horsager]: leader that that’s kind of of. Oh, they, a fast paced, uh tech company. Um,

[david_horsager]: you know, how do they pause enough? And what do they do to help it be okay

[david_horsager]: to, or how do they ask the right questions Or how do they be present in the

[david_horsager]: right way?

[kim_harms]: it’s interesting. C. S. Lewis has a great, ▁quote. Something to the effect that

[kim_harms]: uh, maybe we should isolate people that are grieving Uh, to a special colony like

[kim_harms]: lepers. You know, Because nobody wants to be around them. Nobody knows what to

[kim_harms]: say to them. They just they feel uncomfortable. So the first thing to to to know

[kim_harms]: is what do you say? What do you talk to? How do you? How do you talk to them?

[kim_harms]: Well, I think the first time you see someone, Certainly you need to address a

[kim_harms]: loss. Usually that’s at a funeral or a, right after the loss. During whatever Uh

[kim_harms]: officially is going on to help Uh. the grievers get through that. but when they

[kim_harms]: come back to work, the most important thing you can say to them is I am so glad

[kim_harms]: you’re here. It’s so

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[kim_harms]: good to see

[kim_harms]: you. You need to let them know that you’re glad that they’re here and then say I

[kim_harms]: know you’re going through a tough time. If there’s anything we can do to help

[kim_harms]: you. If you need a moment, just come to me. Have some sort of a signal, some sort

[kim_harms]: of a a plan that if you need a few moments, just come to me and we will help you

[kim_harms]: get through this.

[david_horsager]: what

[kim_harms]: But yeah,

[david_horsager]: did you this? Yeah, this is very G. This is great. Address it and then

[kim_harms]: Mhm,

[david_horsager]: uh, acknowledging you’,

[kim_harms]: yeah,

[david_horsager]: glad they’re back

[kim_harms]: mhm.

[david_horsager]: given. given this signaler space, how about you? I mean you, you know we’ve

[david_horsager]: been authentic. You’ve been up open about it, but your son.

[david_horsager]: you know, maybe you start with. Actually, I think we should jump to the

[david_horsager]: story of why you started books or working with books for Africa, and we, um,

[david_horsager]: some people don’t know this, but Doctor Kimberlyy was in one of our first

[david_horsager]: cohorts cohorts of certified trustd facilitators. She has her own brilliant

[david_horsager]: work, but she used some of our work even in her work in Rwanda and other

[david_horsager]: places. and um, but when you lost your son you felt like you could hardly

[david_horsager]: breathe or move or get up some days. But this kind of goes together with why

[david_horsager]: you started the work in Africa. So may we start with that and then come back

[david_horsager]: to your son, and

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: maybe some tips on how you, how you’ve made it through are making it

[kim_harms]: Yeah, I lost both my son and my mother to

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: suicide, so

[david_horsager]: H.

[kim_harms]: that is a of very. t. Any loss is traumatic, but that

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[kim_harms]: was that. just just basically, they destroyed my world when my son died and

[kim_harms]: brought back all the grief. un, uh, compensated for my mother, and so I was in a

[kim_harms]: very bad place. I didn’t think I’d ever be able to have joy my life again. I. I,

[kim_harms]: you know you can’t eat. you can’t sleep. You know all those things, you could

[kim_harms]: just hardly get through the day. but you have to go back to work right, Um, and

[kim_harms]: as I was, I’ have a dear friend who was on the board of books for Africa, and she

[kim_harms]: suggested that we uh, have a library in Rwanda, through books, Africa, a great

[kim_harms]: organization based in Minneapolis, an amazing place, and so we started.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, And that was because of you. By the way. I’m pretty sure it was

[david_horsager]: because of you originally that we sent

[kim_harms]: Yeah, yeah, I, I. I. I,

[david_horsager]: our first printings of Trust that ships and books, Uh,

[kim_harms]: with you.

[david_horsager]: cases. Yeah,

[kim_harms]: We,

[david_horsager]: that was. That’s what reminded me of your getting certified because of Uh,

[kim_harms]: right

[david_horsager]: helping us, Um start our work there. So anyway,

[kim_harms]: it. We had a group of African leaders that came to the to uh,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: Minnesota from it throughw books for Africa, and we gave them all a copy of

[kim_harms]: Trustta, So it was it was. Uh. Africa gets a lot of trust edge And I actually

[kim_harms]: gave the whole cer out there back. I was maybe seven or eight years ago. I can’t

[kim_harms]: remember even, but she, she said, Let’s get one one or one shipment out. and of

[kim_harms]: course I’m a dentist. So I went to the dental school and that there was a need

[kim_harms]: for law library there, so we were able to work through Thompson Roiders to get

[kim_harms]: law books. And we just kind of got this collection of seven libraries on our very

[kim_harms]: first shipment. And what I found. we went out to visit Rowanda. What I found is

[kim_harms]: they are the grief experts of the world.

[david_horsager]: M, mhm,

[kim_harms]: Ver Oneont had a genocide in nineteen ninety four. And I went there in two

[kim_harms]: thousand and eleven. So that was what. Sixteen years after the genocide, Not a

[kim_harms]: long time, and they had taken their country even in that short period of time

[kim_harms]: from a horrible place that was just completely shattered. The the or

[kim_harms]: organizations and institutions were were shattered. Um. it was just a shattered

[kim_harms]: chattered country. Uh, and

[kim_harms]: Um. In sixteen years they had built it back to a safe

[kim_harms]: beautiful place. Uh Cagalli was being built up. It was just unbelievable

[kim_harms]: progress. in sixteen years. Now what they did is they did it through. reconci.

[kim_harms]: they they. they, f, first of all for forgiveness. how could how do you forgive a

[kim_harms]: genocide?

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: I don’t know how you do that. Um,

[david_horsager]: and you and I met you. I remember about Father Rayme, who came

[kim_harms]: yes, y.

[david_horsager]: over and it was like you got sibling against sibling, or I mean, almost like

[david_horsager]: Fa, neighbor against

[david_horsager]: neighbor Right, Just they had been neighbors. And then how do I forgive that

[kim_harms]: it’s anance neighbor,

[david_horsager]: person who then sold me out or killed me or my dad or mom? Hm,

[kim_harms]: right, Yeah, they’d killed the entire families and burnt down all the property so

[kim_harms]: that any survivors had abs ly. Nothing the and the families combined, but what

[kim_harms]: they did is they realize that they didn’t forgive and build a new country. That

[kim_harms]: their children would be going to the same thing again again and again. and if you

[kim_harms]: look in Africa, some countries that didn’t handle things like that so well,

[kim_harms]: they’re still in that shape. but veranda has built itself up to a point right now

[kim_harms]: where it’s con. It’s a safe as our. Our. Our State Department, um, uh, rated it

[kim_harms]: as safe as going to Canada. It’s a safety level one. So if you’re if, if you feel

[kim_harms]: safe going up to Canada, then you should feel safe going to Rowanda. In fact,

[kim_harms]: when when they come to the United States, they get a little worried about safety.

[kim_harms]: But so they built this amazing country up, and I realized that they were the

[kim_harms]: experts in grief, and they helped me so much manage my grief. If they could

[kim_harms]: overcome that the genocide, losing their entire families. And then I, I need to

[kim_harms]: learn how they did that, and Um, they did it through reconciliation. They did

[kim_harms]: punish the perpetrators. They were in jail for probably about twenty years. When

[kim_harms]: they came out of jail, they had to. they had to face their communities. They had

[kim_harms]: to talk to the victims. They had to try to recommen. You know, Uh, make some sort

[kim_harms]: of recompense to the victims. Uh, they have just an amazing ability to deal with

[kim_harms]: conflict and to deal with grief and I,

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: it was such a blessing for me. I’m so grateful I got to go there, and now we have

[kim_harms]: over forty libraries, and Uh of over two hundred and forty thousand books. Some

[kim_harms]: computers and so on that are there. So we have a whole system built up now, Uh,

[kim_harms]: ara carmsmorial libraries, Throughw books for Africa,

[david_horsager]: And Eric is your son and

[kim_harms]: Your experience. Yeah,

[david_horsager]: yep. And and I think that whole process there is. you know, there was

[david_horsager]: punishment. but there was a way toward forgiveness

[kim_harms]: yeah,

[david_horsager]: and we might come back to some that. Tell about your son, tells about your

[david_horsager]: son.

[kim_harms]: well, Eric was an amazing young man amazing. he loved his family, loved his his

[kim_harms]: friends. he loved his god. Uh, he went to Saint Thomas Academy, which is a school

[kim_harms]: here in in Minnesota, and uh he, uh, he was a band director and he made band

[kim_harms]: cool. In fact, some of the football parents kind of complained a little bit

[kim_harms]: because it got. Uh. The band got a lot of of applause. You know, whenever goes up

[kim_harms]: there because he would dance, he was called the Dancing Bear and he was recruited

[kim_harms]: to go to Columbia University. So I went to Columbia loved it there. He was. he

[kim_harms]: was Uh, elected to student government. he was. He was a brilliant jazz pianist,

[kim_harms]: so he was in the jazz band. He was accepted into the jazz program there, and at

[kim_harms]: the end of his first semester he had. We was on the Um. deanslisted engineering,

[kim_harms]: and he was in love. He had just in love with this young woman and was on top of

[kim_harms]: the world and he went back to Columbia, and two weeks later

[kim_harms]: forty five minutes after his girlfriend broke up with him, which is she should

[kim_harms]: have done if she didn’t love him the same way. Um, he took his own life. Forty

[kim_harms]: five minutes at that brilliant impulsive brain that was great, a jazz piano was

[kim_harms]: not able and he didn’t have his full brain developed in the area of of of

[kim_harms]: rational thinking, So he

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: just impulsively took his own life, and it just absolutely was such a surprise.

[kim_harms]: and uh, uh, a devastation to his family,

[kim_harms]: and and all that loved him. He had a big group.

[david_horsager]: Yeah, he did an amazing young man. How did you?

[david_horsager]: How did you? What were some of the things that helped you start to de with

[david_horsager]: that hole in agony?

[kim_harms]: Well, I had I had someone tell me something once to nightight, which I think is

[kim_harms]: every parent uh, needs to hear that’s lost his child in. and you can only tell it

[kim_harms]: if you blss one yourself or you’re in that position. I had a a nephew who was

[kim_harms]: shortly after my husband. I were returning back to work and and we’re a dentist,

[kim_harms]: Y, you have to grieve, and in secret you can’t grieve when you’re

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: doing that fine work. I mean you, it. it’s a. It’s a hard thing to do and we’re

[kim_harms]: back at work and I was coming out of the office one night, and my husband was

[kim_harms]: standing there with his his cousin. His cousin, Carry and Carry had lost his

[kim_harms]: brother Janned, and about the same age at about nineteen, Ja, and had been out

[kim_harms]: drinking. His friends brought him back and left him in his car, thinking he’d

[kim_harms]: just walk in the house, But it’s Minnesota. It’s twenty below, ▁zero, and Jan

[kim_harms]: frozea death in his car outside of his parents. So and Carry was devastated by

[kim_harms]: the loss of his brother, but he felt that he also lost his parents. At that time,

[kim_harms]: he felt that his parents were no longer able to be themselves, and he, he said to

[kim_harms]: me, and he pointed his finger at me. And this is you know. I was grieving. This.

[kim_harms]: I was in the ▁zombie stage. Anyone that’s been through catastrophic loss knows

[kim_harms]: that ▁zobie stage, or you kind of walk around and you feel like

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: you’re dead inside and you’re trying to just make it through. I was in the ▁zobie

[kim_harms]: state and he looked at me and he pointed his finger at me and he said Kim. Don’t

[kim_harms]: you ever let your remaining kids feel that they are not enough?

[kim_harms]: It was like a lightning bolt and that was the beginning of my realizing that I

[kim_harms]: had to do everything

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Hm,

[kim_harms]: in my power to crawl, climb and find my way out of that horrible despair pit. And

[kim_harms]: that was

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: the beginning And it, you know, it’s a journey. It takes long. you can’t. Grief

[kim_harms]: the beginning And it, you know, it’s a journey. It takes long. you can’t. Grief

[kim_harms]: is different with every person, but that’s when I, I just, and my husband had

[kim_harms]: is different with every person, but that’s when I, I just, and my husband had

[kim_harms]: just had a liver transplant. He had liver cancer, had liver transplant. He was

[kim_harms]: just had a liver transplant. He had liver cancer, had liver transplant. He was

[kim_harms]: struggling, you know, physically and emotionally, and so I had to go and I had to

[kim_harms]: struggling, you know, physically and emotionally, and so I had to go and I had to

[kim_harms]: climb my way out of that pit and that

[kim_harms]: climb my way out of that pit and that

[david_horsager]: What were some of the? What were some of the wrongs of that ladder of

[david_horsager]: climbing out?

[kim_harms]: well, First of all, I have a strong faith and so

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: that my faith helped me get through. but I think

[kim_harms]: understanding the love for my children, the love for my husband,

[kim_harms]: knowing that they needed me,

[kim_harms]: knowing that I, I c, staying in this pit forever, W would would is a horrible

[kim_harms]: place to live. If you’ve been in that pit, I didn’t want to live there the rest

[kim_harms]: of my life, and I didn’t want the people around me to influent be influenced by

[kim_harms]: my time in the pit. I wanted

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: to crawl out of that and and sh, show that you can overcome these things. And it

[kim_harms]: it took a long time. Uh, And and there’s a I. I did become a grief counselor.

[kim_harms]: Actually, uh, uh, Surely, after that and I learned one of the things I learned.

[kim_harms]: Uh, you know they, we. We all know the the stages of grief, but there are tasks

[kim_harms]: de mourning, and I like tasks better cause. I like to grib onto tasks. The task

[kim_harms]: of warning are to accept the loss that takes a long time,

[kim_harms]: and then to uh, take a look uh at your life as it is. you know process. The grief

[kim_harms]: processing is the hard part that’s getting out of the pit process and grief, uh,

[kim_harms]: adjusting to the new world, a catastrophic lost of ider world into before and

[kim_harms]: after and you have to adjust to the new life and then find a place to put your

[kim_harms]: love one in your heart, but move forward in your life, and and be present for the

[kim_harms]: people that are there, And those tasks were, Um, a learning that was important,

[kim_harms]: too, So all of that combined, I just made it my goal to get out of the pit. I

[david_horsager]: Mhmm,

[kim_harms]: didn’t let the pit overcome me, because it will. I think if you don’t fight it,

[kim_harms]: it overcomes you, and you’re stuck down there in that pits with one nostril

[kim_harms]: sticking out of the mud trying to

[kim_harms]: get through.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Did you have help? I mean, I think I could hear a lot of people saying

[david_horsager]: Okay, that’s great, but I am in the pit. I don’t know what to do and I don’t

[david_horsager]: feel like getting out. I mean they are so thinking about themselves like I

[david_horsager]: know my family, my husband and my wife, whoever needs you, but I, I can’t

[david_horsager]: you know they going to stay in Be whatever it is. How did you either fight

[david_horsager]: or or did you have help?

[kim_harms]: I I should. okay. Im. I’m I’m a dentist and one of our problems as dentist, as we

[kim_harms]: think we know everything you know it. it’s it’s it’s it’s It’s a a fatal flaw in

[kim_harms]: in

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: me, so I, instead of going to a grief counsel, I became a grief counselor, so I,

[kim_harms]: I. I used education to get myself out of pet. Now I had pastors in my church. I

[kim_harms]: have friends, wonderful friends. I have all the things necessary to help me, but

[kim_harms]: I want to say to those people that are under the bed that it is much better even

[kim_harms]: for you if you have no one else in your life but you, that you are enough and it

[kim_harms]: is so much better to be out of that pit, and to be above the ground and to see

[kim_harms]: the light than to be in that pit. It’s a horrible place to live, so even for

[kim_harms]: yourself, it’s important to climb out of that pit and fight to get out of the pit

[kim_harms]: and have that motivation. I know that not everyone can do it, and I know that

[kim_harms]: there are some people that are there for life. but I would just like to encourage

[kim_harms]: everyone. no matter where you are to climb. crawl, get yourself out of the pit

[kim_harms]: and to know that finding joy again in life does not diminish your love for the

[kim_harms]: person that you lost. In fact, I think that it that person. If you, if if you

[kim_harms]: love that person and that person of you, they would not want you to be in the pit

[kim_harms]: for life. So no matter who you have around you for yourself, even climb and crawl

[kim_harms]: out of that pit. It’s a terrible place to live.

[david_horsager]: So this, this is all. There is more about this in Doctor Kim’s book

[david_horsager]: Emotional emergency Handbook For how to do this at work and deal with that.

[david_horsager]: I want to jump to something else before I do anything else you would say for

[david_horsager]: just how we should address grief in the workplace. Any last tip to this

[kim_harms]: I think as to address you know, address it. Um, let the person know that you’re

[david_horsager]: part,

[kim_harms]: thinking of them. Talk to the person one on one. Even little things like Uh,

[kim_harms]: bringing him a coffee in the morning, show them that you’re thinking about them

[kim_harms]: by little deeds. You know, bringing them coffee do something nice. Um, those

[kim_harms]: things are really helpful. They just want you. They just want to know that you

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Hm,

[kim_harms]: care. Also,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: one thing that I think people don’t re realize is we love when you tell stories

[kim_harms]: about our loved one. I loved it when people would, uh, people from the band are

[kim_harms]: ▁quizzable. Or you know whatever organization Eric was in would write these

[kim_harms]: stories about how you helped them. I love those stories and especially in a card.

[kim_harms]: writing them in a card. Sometimes the people that are grieving, don’t you? I

[kim_harms]: don’t remember much about that first year. You lose your memory a bit. I mean,

[kim_harms]: your brain’s not working. Those cards are fabulous. Write them a card and and

[kim_harms]: tell ‘ how much you care about them. A nice story about their loved one. They

[kim_harms]: just need to know you’re there.

[david_horsager]: How much care about them in a story, but even think of people in my life

[david_horsager]: that have that have passed away at a reasonable age. Eighty six, six, or or

[david_horsager]: so my grand. But I remember, I loved hearing the stories about who she was

[david_horsager]: and seeing who you know. Might you know? I’ve got some my dad’s ninety two

[david_horsager]: now, and I just um, I think, keep keeping telling the story about especially

[david_horsager]: those young lives that were gone so early that people could quickly not hear

[david_horsager]: or could could forget. So emotional emergency handbook. All of this is at

[david_horsager]: the dental mediator Dot com. Want to jump over to some insights from your

[david_horsager]: other book. We could talk about all kinds of things today, leadership and

[david_horsager]: dentistry, and Rwanda. more. we are lined on some things there, but I I do

[david_horsager]: want to talk about, because you do have a a significant expertise even in

[david_horsager]: what you’re doing now in dealing with conflict and mediation, and a lot of

[david_horsager]: O. Obviously we talk about is building trust or being trusted. Even in the

[david_horsager]: midst of certain conflict. We will, certain you know we say conflict is

[david_horsager]: inevitable, But maybe you could you know. Let’s just take this and look at

[david_horsager]: work a little bit. How? what are some tips on dealing with conflict? We all

[david_horsager]: have it. There’s conflict everywhere in these. whether it’s offices or

[david_horsager]: company or teams. What are some things you could share with us to to to help

[david_horsager]: us stay trusted in the midst of conflict.

[kim_harms]: The biggest thing right now in our country, For sure is when there is a conflict,

[kim_harms]: there is a tendency amongst people to focus on the people in the conflict and not

[kim_harms]: the issue itself. Just look at the media when there’ even a political issue.

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: Instead of of looking at the pros and cons of the issue, they start talking about

[kim_harms]: the people, and one side is good and one side is evil. This is kind of how we are

[kim_harms]: doing things more and more in the United States. I think it’s a very bad trend,

[kim_harms]: because the most important that one of the most important things in conflict

[kim_harms]: management is to focus on the conflict. Focus on the issue. Take the people out

[kim_harms]: of it, because don’t assume people have evil intentions. Just say here is a

[kim_harms]: conflict. Here’s the issue. How do we solve it? Find the common ground and work

[kim_harms]: on solving the problem. Rid of your uh feelings about the people involved. focus

[kim_harms]: on the problem.

[david_horsager]: how do you tip? By the way? getting rid of the people? I mean, wouldn’t this

[david_horsager]: be amazing in our and everything

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: else?

[david_horsager]: What about mediation you’re having to be? Play the role of mediator. What

[david_horsager]: are some of the key um parts of mediating these kind of challenging

[david_horsager]: situations you and I’ve talked about, or you’ve had you know between offices

[david_horsager]: or future, or um, um,

[david_horsager]: y, you know. uh, I’m losing the word with an as the the next next, uh, G,

[david_horsager]: passing it on to the next generation. the the Um. You know, if you, you

[david_horsager]: moving leadership to somebody else, Everybody’ thinking of it for

[kim_harms]: transition

[david_horsager]: me. But yeah, yeah, that’s that’s one way. Um.

[kim_harms]: words, too.

[david_horsager]: yeah, So what? uh? what?

[david_horsager]: how are you dealing with? How do you going to go into mediation? You know,

[david_horsager]: there’s fierce bitterness or there. you know that people are against each

[david_horsager]: other. Um.

[david_horsager]: What? what do you start with?

[kim_harms]: The first thing I I try to do is I, I get the story from both sides,

[kim_harms]: get one side,

[kim_harms]: and then I get the other side and I try to take a look at those stories and and

[kim_harms]: find out where the commonalities are. Where is a common ground? I try to get rid

[kim_harms]: of the people and focus

[david_horsager]: Mhm?

[kim_harms]: on what is the issue. What’s a common ground? How how can you benefit? How can

[kim_harms]: you benefit? and and then get them talking about the issue rather than Uh, the

[kim_harms]: people. Now sometimes you’ll find that there might be an issue that comes up.

[kim_harms]: That’s not the real issue. You know, there might be initi that comes up saying,

[kim_harms]: In office, somebody gets angry with something in the office. What they what you

[kim_harms]: might find is that that. really? that’s not the full issue. The issue is that two

[kim_harms]: months ago one person felt disrespected by somebody else

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: and conflict that is not resolved or addressed, just matastazes.

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[kim_harms]: So taking care of those conflicts when they’re little before it is a build and

[kim_harms]: build a build, and then suddenly there’s an explosion and then they have

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: to call the media, But’ common ground is listening to both sides of the story.

[kim_harms]: It’s being a third person to to con. maybe come in and and ask some questions.

[kim_harms]: Ask some questions that are.

[david_horsager]: What are your favorite? Quite? What are some of your Fa? By the way? The

[david_horsager]: word I, I always say it just jumped in my head. succession planning

[david_horsager]: succession. When I got you know succession issues. Lots of those happening.

[kim_harms]: Um.

[david_horsager]: Yeah, but um, but what? what are some questions you like to ask as a

[david_horsager]: mediator?

[kim_harms]: Well, I think, Um, and I think that the one of the best questions is Um. Why do

[kim_harms]: you think that’s happening or what is going on here? You know just those basic

[kim_harms]: basic questions is. so. Um, what? what do you want to see happen? What if? if you

[kim_harms]: could, if you could pick a resolution, what would your resolution be? And then I

[kim_harms]: would ask the other person if you could pick a resolution. what would your

[kim_harms]: resolution be? And then you know they, It might be similar,

[david_horsager]: I love that gets the. Yeah,

[kim_harms]: but they might,

[david_horsager]: It gets them solution centered about it. It gets something about the.

[david_horsager]: Instead of like I hate I, This, this is like. Well, what would I really

[david_horsager]: want? Well, maybe it’s not such a high bar. you know, Hm.

[kim_harms]: and sometimes it’s just respect. I just want her to treat me with respect that

[kim_harms]: that

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[kim_harms]: might be yet. and then, once you get over that hurdle of the lack of respect or

[kim_harms]: lack of trust, trust is trust is huge because if you, I ba,

[kim_harms]: I’m trying to think of a time that I did a mediation where two people actually

[kim_harms]: trusted each other. It’s almost like my mediations. Are there? Mediator is kept

[kim_harms]: busy because of lack of trust, because

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: people assume the worst in other people. Usually, people that trust each other

[kim_harms]: will work out a deal themselves. They

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: don’t need a mediator to come in, so that’s um. Youd put us out of business, you

[kim_harms]: know, but but I

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: uh you. yeah, but

[david_horsager]: well, there’s the Gu. There’s the cost of a lack of trust, we say, a lack of

[david_horsager]: trust in the biggest cost they have. Well, one

[kim_harms]: right.

[david_horsager]: is a mediator and one is and

[kim_harms]: that’s

[david_horsager]: that costs time and it costs money and it costs all these things. So no

[kim_harms]: right. and my daughters are lawyer. They be out of. they be out too. No, they

[david_horsager]: doubt about,

[kim_harms]: were. they work mostly in and good good law. They you know they work. They bring

[kim_harms]: people together for transitions and things like that. Um, but yeah, so I think

[kim_harms]: that you know be people that that that lack trust typically don’t need to mean or

[kim_harms]: that that have trust typically don’t need a mediator,

[david_horsager]: Well, there’s a lot more. If you go to the dental mediator Dot com, the

[david_horsager]: dental mediator Dot com, you can find out about Doctor Kim’s books.

[david_horsager]: Neutralize your nightmare. If you’re looking at conflict and mediation, you

[david_horsager]: can also find emotional emergency handbook. and if you’re a leader, you need

[david_horsager]: to know what to do. so that’s a good place to find that. Um. find out more.

[david_horsager]: I have loved our friendship and thank you for making me better. I want to

[david_horsager]: jump in a little bit here to personal, because you know, Um, I found at

[david_horsager]: least the leaders that are leading others and have a voice. and you’re

[david_horsager]: speaking on platforms all over, including all the way to Rowanda. that

[david_horsager]: they’re leading themselves in some way. Well, and certainly we’re not

[david_horsager]: perfect. But what are some? Do you have some habits or routines that you

[david_horsager]: kind of do every day Like I always do this for whether it’s for my mental

[david_horsager]: health, physical health, spiritual health, or other things. Are there some

[david_horsager]: habits that you like this? It really helps me on a daily basis as a leader.

[kim_harms]: I, for me, the most important habit in one I had to work at is intentional

[kim_harms]: listening. As a mediaor, I had to intentionally listen. That that taught me how

[kim_harms]: to do that. I, I tend to be, try to be a problem, sovereign and solve people’s

[kim_harms]: problems before they actually ask me to, so intentional listening. I, I have to

[kim_harms]: focus on that and intentionally do it.

[david_horsager]: Hm. Hm.

[david_horsager]: Love that. What’s what? What’s motivating you these days? You’ you get to

[david_horsager]: work with your daughters here in this kind of later work Chapter. And you’re

[david_horsager]: having a ball. But are there some things you? Uh, what’s what’s next for

[david_horsager]: Doctor Kimer, What are you thinking about and hoping for down the road?

[kim_harms]: Well, the thing that motivates me most. I have six grandchildren. Oh, my gosh,

[kim_harms]: life is great with grandchildren. They are the best and I think that as I look at

[kim_harms]: at how the world is going and what I’m doing. Uh, they motivate me to to just

[kim_harms]: keep on going, and and being to remain active and keep healthy, Because, Um, you

[kim_harms]: know you can’t replace me as a grandma. You replace me as a speaker, you replace

[kim_harms]: me of other things, but you can’t replace me as a ternal grandmother to those six

[kim_harms]: grandkids.

[david_horsager]: When’s your next trip back to Awanda?

[kim_harms]: Well, we’re planning one, maybe in well, March, or or June. You know, we’re

[kim_harms]: waiting for this whole uh cobat situation, Uh, to kind of calm down a little bit.

[kim_harms]: I, the last time I was there I, I, I think I took one of the last planes out. I

[kim_harms]: was there in

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: March of two thousand and twenty. Not a good time. Um, but it was great. I had a

[kim_harms]: great time in Rhwana. brought my niece. We had a wonderful time at getting out

[kim_harms]: with hard, Um, and they, and they’re actually very um, very careful. Rwanda is a

[kim_harms]: very low um. prevalence

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Yeah, how many libraries now have you helped?

[kim_harms]: Over forty. Right

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: now we have over forty libraries. And uh, we just brought in another law library

[kim_harms]: and I’m working with the dental school and working with a number of dental

[kim_harms]: speakers to go out and give virtual courses there, which is fabulous

[david_horsager]: hm,

[kim_harms]: with the internet. You can have the Y in virtual courses. It’s amazing what you

[kim_harms]: could bring, you know

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: when you’re not even there. It’s just fabulous.

[david_horsager]: Well, I’ve I’ve I’ve written on it as you know. The, uh, the whole

[david_horsager]: rebuilding of trust and Rwanda, and I just think it’s an amazing story of

[david_horsager]: how trust is built when it when it just such tragic situation of neighbor

[david_horsager]: against neighbor, And there’s so so much of a great case study. They’ve done

[david_horsager]: imperfectly as we all are, but we could all learn something from that story

[kim_harms]: I think we should. All our leaders should go there as a

[david_horsager]: after.

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: part of their their education. To send all our leadings over there. Let them

[david_horsager]: yep,

[kim_harms]: have a little talk.

[david_horsager]: after the Geno set absolutely,

[kim_harms]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: let’s do it well, Doctor H Kim. this has been a privilege and uh for

[david_horsager]: everybody out there that wants to know more. you know. it’s Doctor, Just D

[david_horsager]: R. Kimberlely harms dot Com or the dental mediator dot com. It’s the trusted

[david_horsager]: leadership or excuse me, it’s a trust the leader show, Doctor Kim. So I

[david_horsager]: always ask the final question. And that is who is a leader you trust And

[david_horsager]: why?

[kim_harms]: well, Billy Graham, I mean,

[david_horsager]: H.

[kim_harms]: he walked the walk, talk, the talk, walk the walk. He was just an amazing leader

[kim_harms]: and I, I.

[kim_harms]: I just trust him more than

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: anybody,

[david_horsager]: thank you. it’s been a treat to be back together. This has been the trusted

[david_horsager]: leadership show. I’m having trouble. I’m goingnna have to have you cut that

[david_horsager]: Kent. He’s got to cut all this at the end. I don’t know why I’m saying

[david_horsager]: leadership all the time. He’ll cut this up. Okay, I’m going to go back to

[david_horsager]: it. Hey, it has been a treat to be back together, Doctor Kim. This has Ben,

[david_horsager]: the trusted leader show until next time. Stay trusted.

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