Ep. 50: Jay Baer on The BIGGEST Mistake That EVERY Leader Makes
In this episode, David sits down with Jay Baer, Digital Marketing and Customer Experience Expert, Author, and Podcast Host, to discuss why Talk Triggers are so important and the biggest mistake that every leader makes.
Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/
Jay Baer, CSP, CPAE has spent 25 years in digital marketing and customer experience, consulting for more than 700 companies during that period, including 34 of the FORTUNE 500. His current firm – Convince &Convert – provides word of mouth, digital marketing, and customer experience advice and counsel to some of the world’s most important brands.
His new book, Talk Triggers, is the complete guide to creating customers using strategic, operational differentiators that compel word of mouth. In the best companies, the customers do the marketing. Talk Triggers is the instruction manual for making businesses grow with customer conversation.
Jay speaks approximately 60 times per year world-wide, often with lessons about how businesspeople can use today’s shifts in technology and consumer expectations to gain or keep more customers.
Jay’s Convince & Convert blog was named the world’s #1 content marketing blog by the Content Marketing Institute, and is visited by more than 250,000 marketers each month. Jay also hosts and produces the Social Pros podcast, which is downloaded 65,000 times monthly and was named best marketing podcast by the Content Marketing Awards.
Jay lives in the idyllic college town of Bloomington, Indiana with his wife and children, and travels from Indianapolis to speaking opportunities world-wide.
Jay’s NEW Newsletter: http://thebaerfacts.com/
“Talk Triggers” by Jay Baer and Daniel Lemin: https://amzn.to/39UY2vc
Social Pros podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/social-pros-podcast/id499844469
1. “We trust people more than we trust any leader or organization or government or media.”
2. “The best way to grow any business, is for your customers to do that growing for you.”
3. “Word of mouth is just a story.”
4. “Competency keeps your customers, but competency doesn’t create stories.”
5. “A talk trigger isn’t actually marketing, it’s operations.”
6. “Differing expectations doesn’t have to be better, it just has to be different.”
7. “A talk trigger has to be an experience not a bullet point.”
8. “When you give somebody an experience that’s too grand it doesn’t create conversation, it stops conversation.”
9. “A talk trigger only works if it’s something that the customer doesn’t expect.”
10. “There is some wisdom to doing less but doing it better.”
Links Mentioned In The Episode:
Lindey’s Steakhouse: https://theplaceforsteak.com/
“Talk Triggers” by Jay Baer and Daniel Lemin: https://amzn.to/39UY2vc
Jay’s NEW Newsletter: http://thebaerfacts.com/
Social Pros podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/social-pros-podcast/id499844469
Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
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David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a very close friend a special guests we’ve been in a mastermind group for several years, welcome to the show Jay Baer.
Jay Baer: Fantastic to be here my friend, I looked at the episode count and it’s nice to know that I think i’m just barely one of the 50 leaders that you trust the most somewhere.
Jay Baer: there’s about 47 people that you trust more than me and that’s Okay, you know, no, no, I wouldn’t go that far, you know but you’d you’d move up the food chain for sure.
David Horsager: yeah that finally finally got your schedule opened up now.
Jay Baer: that’s right that’s right company so.
Jay Baer: i’m finally trustworthy enough to make the show appreciate.
David Horsager: Well, so everybody knows you know Jay’s a seven generation entrepreneur he’s just very recently.
David Horsager: sold his 50 companies built, you know five multimillion dollar companies get six best selling books we’re going to talk about one of those today that i’m especially interested in, though I think everything back to.
David Horsager: hug your haters and you go back to you know utility and all those there’s just great golden each of them, but I want to touch on this.
David Horsager: This talk triggers one also he’s worked with everything from advising and speaking at the United Nations 3am Oracle Nike and a host of others.
David Horsager: Is that he really is a genuine thought leader in in digital communications and marketing and in just playing customer experience so more than that give us a give us a quick little background on us something we don’t know to get us started.
Jay Baer: Well, I started in politics, I was originally a political campaign consultant and used to do all of the direct mail for the late Senator john McCain it was a fantastic boss in it.
Jay Baer: And a great line of the Senate and, and so I started in direct mail and then got into a lot of other types of MEDIA I work for the government for about 20 minutes I realized that that was not my thing I worked for.
Jay Baer: Waste management, and so I gave him a landfill tour so i’m going to be part of the show on how landfills are constructed, I could absolutely do that.
Jay Baer: I got involved in the Internet at the very, very beginning 1993 so I started in digital marketing.
Jay Baer: At the very beginning, so so early Dave that that domain names were free you could get whatever.com you wanted and you wouldn’t have to pay anything for it because.
Jay Baer: At that point 93 like who would want to have what would you do with a website, there was no such thing really it was so early and this is 100% true my partners and I sold the domain name budweiser.com to anheuser busch brewing in 1993 for 50.
Jay Baer: Cases of beer That was our actual purchase price now in my Defense I think I was 23 years old or 24 at that point, I was the oldest of the partners.
Jay Baer: And we didn’t just you know give it away we we stipulated in the written contract that it had to be bottles not cans, because you know you got to stay classy.
Jay Baer: So it was a long time ago, so I I have literally seen firsthand the entire development of digital marketing.
Jay Baer: Since it was sort of at the drawing board a phase two to what it has become now you know, a trillion dollar business or whatever it is so it’s been an interesting an interesting 30 years for sure.
David Horsager: Unbelievable I was in those days, you know I went through college, all the way through college with never going on a website.
Jay Baer: or using a typewriter and college.
David Horsager: yeah and the next year it was everywhere, for me, yeah.
David Horsager: yeah and I moved to Arkansas so where I was at least, it was a couple years later, but but anyway, and I, by the way, just say that, with a wink because I love Arkansas and my my.
Jay Baer: boy your Arkansas listeners like wait a SEC.
Jay Baer: yeah I know soccer This is ridiculous.
David Horsager: They were there, there are some of the dearest friends, I have an objective.
Jay Baer: reviews and their show next week will.
David Horsager: be a special time.
David Horsager: Now, but it is interesting because, even in the role I hadn’t said we just didn’t it was it was a few years later, and I mean it blew up and but.
David Horsager: You know it’s just an it was something else to see what happened so that’s fascinating.
David Horsager: we’re going to get into this i’m going to start with the some of the book stuff just content that way we’re going to get personal overtime, because it says the trusted leader show and you’re a leader to.
David Horsager: Just so many but let’s jump in if people haven’t seen that people can see I your market or dog ear and everything else talk triggers.
David Horsager: The book by Jay baer and I just think this might be interesting to start because let’s just here just a glimpse of what it is, I want to talk about the four talk triggers for a moment I.
David Horsager: think this is relevant to everybody, as they try to.
David Horsager: You know.
David Horsager: convince people as they try to connect with people as they try to really.
David Horsager: Show trust the people, and we could we could actually talk about any of your books hug your haters maybe another show will do that because that’s all about trust isn’t in a way, but um let’s talk about this word this come from.
Jay Baer: A first of all I should I should note that the book has co authored by my good friend Daniel lemon his contributions to the book were.
Jay Baer: Significant and the thought leadership behind it Dave the premise is this, we trust people more than we trust any leader or organization or government or media.
Jay Baer: We trust each other, the most and we always have going all the way back to caveman days, where somebody said well who.
Jay Baer: Which caveman sells the sharpest you know arrowheads like well you know blog he’s the man right, I mean it’s the.
Jay Baer: it’s the recommendations from from your peers, are the ones that carry the most weight and the fundamental premise of the book.
Jay Baer: And well it’s really written for for a business kind of company perspective and applies to individuals and and speakers and parents and spouses, as well the premise is that the best way to grow any business or any audience or trust is for your customers to do that growing for you.
Jay Baer: And I, we all know that to be true right.
David Horsager: But.
Jay Baer: If you ask businesses hey How important is word of mouth do your business, they will all say important all of them, yet, and this part is the thing that makes this book so important.
Jay Baer: Nobody has an actual strategy to do it the actual data from john john says that fewer than 1% of all businesses have an actual word of mouth strategy.
Jay Baer: Fewer than 1% yet you’ve got a strategy for everything else right you gotta you gotta leadership strategy to trust strategy if you follow Dave and you should you’ve got a.
Jay Baer: PR strategy crisis strategy hiring strategy, you know diversity strategy, etc, etc, etc marketing strategy of course social media strategy, but the one thing you don’t have a strategy for is perhaps the most important thing at all of all, which is why should people tell your story.
David Horsager: I think the most something really interesting that seems like almost a contradiction at first we’ve got this guy one of the one of the.
David Horsager: Most sought after thought leaders in the world on digital and marketing and you hear so much you know shazam and those spaces and here Jay baer is saying.
David Horsager: It is all about word of mouth that’s the string as much as you’ve done in the space of digital and, by the way, you can use digital.
David Horsager: But this whole this whole piece of kind of what I loved about it, is it got back to truth to authenticity to what are real people really saying not um.
David Horsager: We did it, you know in our study we find that continually like reviews online reviews are tanking because people don’t trust them, whereas.
David Horsager: What you hear from someone specifically that you know is that trust is going up immensely and I think that’s just it’s really interesting in the space right.
Jay Baer: yeah you’re exactly right there is more online word of mouth now than ever before, because of social media, the prevalence of ratings and review sites, etc, so so mathematically the volume of online word of mouth is higher.
Jay Baer: Especially in the pandemic because there’s just not as many occasions for offline word of mouth and there compared to pretend, however, the impact of offline word of mouth.
Jay Baer: Somebody you actually know at your kids soccer game, or what have you is higher, because you have that existing relationship with the person who was passing the story along and.
Jay Baer: People ask me a lot Dave like well okay I don’t get this if If businesses know that word of mouth is important.
Jay Baer: How is it then that they don’t have a strategy for it like what I mean you know this it’s 2022 almost like you know word of mouth been around for thousands of years, how is it that people don’t have a strategy and and here’s why.
Jay Baer: Almost every business or leader makes the same mistake and the mistake is believing that competency creates conversation.
Jay Baer: That, if you run a good organization or you are trusted and you’re good at execution that that naturally people will notice that.
Jay Baer: And we’ll talk about it and that seems right on paper, it does, but it’s not actually right in the real world, because that’s not how human beings behave every person in the world, including you me, and everybody tuning in is wired the same way.
Jay Baer: We are wired to discuss things that are different and ignore things that are expected.
Jay Baer: Let me tell you about this experience I had last night.
Jay Baer: It was perfectly adequate.
Jay Baer: said, nobody in history right yeah if I went over here and flick the switch and these lights went off in my office.
Jay Baer: I wouldn’t be like Dave you won’t believe what happened when I hit these switch slides one off, you know why because that’s how lights work, and we all know that, so there isn’t a story that word of mouth is just a story, and you being good at your job.
Jay Baer: isn’t the story because that’s what they expect right that’s why it’s really, really hard for restaurants, for example, to create word of mouth around food quality and sort of tastiness unless it’s just.
Jay Baer: Beyond beyond crazy because guess what if you’re buying a meal in a restaurant you expect it to be good that’s the whole point.
Jay Baer: Right, so you don’t get conversational credit for doing exactly what customers expect you to do and that’s the mistake everybody makes they just focus on competency, which is important don’t get me wrong.
Jay Baer: competency keeps your customers, but competency doesn’t create stories because it’s just like yeah Of course they do that right sure.
David Horsager: let’s talk about that, because you, you name one in the book, I remember you got cheesecake factory they create a talk trigger you talked about Hilton and the cookie.
Jay Baer: They created a cookie that’s right so.
David Horsager: So let’s do a workaround just kind of round about here, first of all those four talk triggers your name in the book talk about them and then and then we’ll get back and forth a couple examples, because I think it’s really interesting so those four hours.
Jay Baer: So if you want, if you want your customers to tell a story about you and you do, you have to give them a story to tell.
Jay Baer: And that story is something that you do operationally, and this is a really important premise a talk trigger isn’t actually marketing.
Jay Baer: Its operations, it provides huge marketing advantages, but it really is an operational choice that you make in your business okay to do something that customers do not expect.
Jay Baer: That will cause conversations, so you talked about the chocolate chip cookie at doubletree hotels, they give out to every guest every time they check in we studied that in the book and.
Jay Baer: The third one, is a warm right it’s not just a pile of cookies under a glass Dome that’s the key they hand it to warm.
Jay Baer: 34% of their customers have told a story about that cookie.
Jay Baer: They used to give out pre pandemic 75,000 cookies a day days, so do the math on that 34% time 75,000 a day is 25,000 to 300 stories a day.
Jay Baer: About a chocolate chip cookie now companion question when’s the last time you saw a doubletree add.
Jay Baer: Like kind of never because they advertise far less than any other hotel at that price point because of the cookie is the Ad.
Jay Baer: And the guests are the sales and marketing department and that’s when you know you have a word of mouth strategy that actually works, one of my favorite quotes in history.
Jay Baer: From Robert Stevens, who is the founder of geek squad the services arm for best buy a brilliant brilliant man Robert once said that advertising is a tax paid by the unremarkable.
Jay Baer: And there’s a lot of truth to that right, you know, yes there’s a time and a place for advertising, but it’s also true that many of the best brands advertise the least.
Jay Baer: because their customers do that job for them willingly through word of mouth.
Jay Baer: So it’s an operational choice that you make they’ve chosen to give everybody a warm chocolate chip cookie cheesecake factory is chosen to have a 200 page long menu they don’t have to do that, they chose to do it.
Jay Baer: It creates conversation just go to Twitter and type in cheesecake factory plus menu, you lose a whole afternoon it’s hilarious.
Jay Baer: But not anything you come up with not just like anything you dream up will work as a trigger to your point there’s four requirements for ours that have to be true for your operational choice to be a doctor.
Jay Baer: Let me go.
David Horsager: Talk about those yeah I.
David Horsager: OK, I think it’s interesting because you look at cheesecake factory, which I love that story in the book you kind of open with it and and it’s just.
David Horsager: That this the talk to all these people talk about this long massive you know menu, but you think about that from a cost standpoint as a leader it’s like Oh, you know there there’s a.
Jay Baer: it’s also a scratch kitchen there right so everything is scratch.
David Horsager: I know.
David Horsager: If.
Jay Baer: I can make that.
Jay Baer: They have to put a little finer point on it for the audience they make chicken.
Jay Baer: More than 60 different ways.
Jay Baer: yeah 60 in that restaurant I can’t if you told me hey name all the ways to make chicken I couldn’t come up with 60 they make chicken 60 ways in a restaurant right so yeah operationally it’s incredibly complex and, in fact, their founder says in the book.
Jay Baer: Like there’s no way any restaurant will ever copy this because it’s so hard and it’s so operationally challenging.
Jay Baer: But that’s why it’s so powerful for my word of mouth standpoint you can’t believe it, you know what is going on here they make all the foods they make everything every dish ever made it’s like a compendium of chow.
David Horsager: I think it’s it’s interesting you go through the list of what was what is so unique at the ethics in Chicago where they’re rude.
David Horsager: Great what was that happened or i’m in our space out i’ll just you know push back on the opposite, we there’s a little steakhouse known in in just right next to where I went to college.
David Horsager: that’s the university and it’s called lindy steakhouse and the steak is amazing and it’s not a little place isn’t that great nothing like grapes, but you know that the in fact nothing about it is remarkable like you’re having these amazing very expensive steaks.
David Horsager: yeah and yet you kind of have the it’s not white tablecloth the field at all, you have three choices.
David Horsager: Three choices, you have this nice steak this say steak.
David Horsager: steak that’s it, you have you get with that.
David Horsager: A baked potato and a salad.
David Horsager: yeah welcome to our steakhouse.
Jay Baer: yeah the state goes.
David Horsager: super successful only on word of mouth.
David Horsager: yeah for those that want to know lindy steakhouse in Arden hills Minnesota but anyway.
David Horsager: But they made the word of mouth in kind of the opposite.
Jay Baer: way.
David Horsager: Right and so anyway.
Jay Baer: yeah bye bye bye bye dude but but what’s interesting about that it’s tolerable, not because it is.
Jay Baer: Less it’s talk about because it’s not what you expect from a steak house.
Jay Baer: Right so so different expectations doesn’t have to be better.
Jay Baer: It just has to be different right so so it doesn’t have to be fancier, and that makes it talk about it can be less fancy and that’s what makes it possible right so it’s just about breaking the expected pattern.
Jay Baer: Not necessarily better or worse, it just has to be unusual, and so my another steakhouse example is a great steak house in Los Angeles, so the top of that intercontinental hotel building there in downtown.
Jay Baer: They have a steak knife menu so very France very fancy steak place and you order your steak and then the they’ve got like a steak knife Somalia.
Jay Baer: Who comes to your table with a velvet light box and opens it up and there’s 11 different steak knives in there you got your big like Australian like that’s a nice one, and then you got like a really fancy like Pearl handled French one.
Jay Baer: And everything in between right it’s a steak knife menu you get to pick and choose your weapon which I think is awesome.
Jay Baer: amazing talk trick to great one.
David Horsager: Well we’re looking at talk trigger to and before we get totally into the ours, but those of you watching can see Jay in a Plaid jacket.
David Horsager: And you know Jay is in the speaker hall of fame.
David Horsager: And is an amazing speaker and one of the interesting things everybody knows, but in fact someone brought this up to me today when they heard, we were having you on the show.
David Horsager: And that is that if you hire Jay to speak you go on to his website and you get a PIC which Plaid soon he wears for your event, you can match.
David Horsager: With your color of your logo, or whatever, but but it’s talk well because meeting planners speakers bureaus and others talk about OJ not just the guy in the Plaid soon, maybe people just see us to kind of you know.
David Horsager: Seeing the Plaid suit your brilliance and all that, but that event planner shares of those and I got the PIC.
Jay Baer: What he wants it yeah Thank you and I tell you that we switch that a few years ago, so I always wore Plaid suits on stage.
Jay Baer: Because I wanted people to be able to find me after I got off stage.
Jay Baer: And in in conferences that we speak get everybody’s wearing a suit in many cases, and so no one can find who who’s the speaker if you’re wearing a jacket and pants that nobody else has.
Jay Baer: it’s easy for them to come up to you later and be like hey I had a question I forgot to ask or we’d love to have you come to our event whatever so I originally did it.
Jay Baer: Just for audience recognition after the speech and that worked great, but then I realized well yeah I want the audience to find me, but the audience isn’t really my customer the customer is the meeting planner.
Jay Baer: And it’s not an experience for them other than then looking at me, and so it worked, it was a differentiator but not really a talk trigger.
Jay Baer: A talk trigger has to be an experience, not a bullet point that’s why double tree has an oven, and every hotel in hands you a warm cookie.
Jay Baer: Every buddy listening probably has, at some point in their life been at a hotel that has a basket of fruit, either at the front desk or by the elevator okay.
Jay Baer: it’s a waste of citrus from a marketing standpoint, nobody has ever told a story about that nobody’s ever said and guess what I was at the radisson and they had apples by the elevator nobody has ever told that story why.
Jay Baer: it’s so similar to the cookie idea, but the cookie is an experience.
Jay Baer: it’s warm you can smell it they hand it to you, they look you in the eye when they give it to you it’s an experience, whereas.
Jay Baer: The apples are just a pile, and so I kind of had that realization that I was making that same mistake me just wearing a Plaid suit on stage is just my version of a bowl of apples once I made a special website.
Jay Baer: And then let meeting planners go and pick out from one of 14 different suits now it’s an experience for them they’re part of the gag see.
Jay Baer: And then it becomes much more powerful and much more of a storytelling propellant for them, and the best way, and this sometimes happens.
Jay Baer: Is when the meeting planner will pick out say three that they, like the best, then they screenshot that and put it in the pre event email send it out to all the delegates and let them vote on which one I were that’s the best case here, because then it’s an experience for everybody.
David Horsager: Not just the meeting plan and i’ve heard you introduced by the way, just that’s awesome because you bring everybody into it, but i’ve heard you introduced and we picked, what do you order today Okay, who can say that so let’s jump backwards for a second, so we have the framework or.
Jay Baer: Or are.
David Horsager: And I can name them, because I know and talk about them, but I want you to do it, the four r’s that actually make something.
David Horsager: A talker visa requirements.
Jay Baer: yep for things that are required First, it has to be remarkable has to be worthy of remark, a story worth telling and this goes back to you, it has to be different enough that people like oh.
Jay Baer: I can’t believe the stakes are so good, and all the fears are broken or whatever the circumstances are lindy right, it has to be outside the pattern that’s the first one remarkable.
Jay Baer: Second, one is it needs to be repeatable and what I mean by this is it’s common that people will make a mistake when they’re thinking through word of mouth and say all right here’s what we’re gonna do.
Jay Baer: we’re gonna do something special and we’re going to offer that special thing to our biggest customers or our newest customers or our longest standing customers.
Jay Baer: make sense airlines do it that way, but the problem is when you think about the point of word of mouth, which is to get everybody telling your story.
Jay Baer: If you only offer the top trigger to a subset of your audience, you are, by definition, reducing the number of people who experience it.
Jay Baer: Therefore, the number of people who will tell the story, so the best talk triggers are the ones that everybody has a crack at.
Jay Baer: everybody gets the same long menu cheesecake factory everybody gets a cookie at doubletree every event gets to pick out my suit and on and on and on, so you want it to be repeatable.
Jay Baer: Not a section of your audience, the whole audience that’s the second one third one, is it needs to be reasonable another mistake people make a lot is they try to shock in off customers into creating word of mouth.
Jay Baer: Perhaps the the classic example which isn’t in the book, but I think it’s illustrative is the publishers clearing house sweepstakes remember that, where you could buy magazine subscriptions and then somebody would win $10 million.
Jay Baer: The problem was especially in those days, the prize was so outlandish that they actually had to spend probably more than $10 million.
Jay Baer: on TV advertising showing them actually giving a big check to people for people to believe that somebody would actually win $10 million.
Jay Baer: They would have been much better off to give away a million dollars, because then people would have said yeah that makes sense and they wouldn’t have had to buy ads to produce evidence that it existed.
Jay Baer: This happens in B2B a lot right you’ve been to so many conferences and events Dave.
Jay Baer: Where you’ve got like the tradeshow floor right and they’ve got all these contests and and you got some software coming like hey put your business card in the fishbowl and, at the end of the show one of us going to win a Caribbean island.
Jay Baer: Like wait what.
Jay Baer: Wait a second that that can’t be right there’s no way that’s true, so the summary of this is that when you give somebody inexperienced that’s two grand.
Jay Baer: It doesn’t create conversation it stops conversation because they don’t necessarily believe it and nobody wants to get involved in word of mouth and tell their friends, something that might be bogus and untrue, so it has to be.
Jay Baer: Reasonable right a chocolate chip cookie it’s a darn good cookie but it’s just a cookie right.
David Horsager: Are you gonna say there’s a differentiator from an apple just plain on tastes there.
Jay Baer: Yes, yes.
Jay Baer: You don’t need to overshoot it so don’t shock and it doesn’t actually work backfires.
Jay Baer: And then the the fourth thing is, wherever possible, it should be relevant right, it needs to tie back to your core value proposition or the elements of your brand that make you trusted.
Jay Baer: This isn’t just about randomness right so it’s not like hey we need word of mouth so let’s go renton an elephant and we’ll put a blanket over it with our logo on it and we’ll walk that elephant down mainstream.
Jay Baer: Like yeah you could do that, but the word of mouth won’t be about your business it’ll be about the elephant because it’s too weird so the best talk triggers are the ones that make sense in the context of who you are.
Jay Baer: And what you’re about and, if I may.
Jay Baer: see people ask me like well wait a second you know doubletree hotels around a bakery, why do they give away chocolate chip cookies well good question.
Jay Baer: I talked to their CMO that link for the book their client as well and.
Jay Baer: turns out that all the hotels and the Hilton portfolio there’s like 22 brands, I think that Hilton owns right you got the Conrad Hilton the doubletree The Hampton INN all of them.
Jay Baer: And they each are trying to shoot for like a different travel they don’t want to go head to head because it’s very inefficient corporately you know somebody like luxury.
Jay Baer: Personal travel some or mid range business travel, you know they all have different audiences because of that they all have different brand positions double trees brand positioning.
Jay Baer: According to their chief marketing officer very trusted leader is the warm welcome the warm welcome doubletree.
Jay Baer: wants to really dominate that I don’t know, whatever it is 710 minutes between when you set foot on the property and when you set foot.
Jay Baer: In your room that gap of time they want to be disproportionately good at that, so they put more time money effort into lobby design than most hotels at that price point.
Jay Baer: More time money effort in front desk clerk training than most people in that price point and the cookie is a big part of that right because again it’s not just a pile of cookies.
Jay Baer: it’s a warm cookie handed you hand to hand pass in a paper sleeve hand to hand pass is the brand standard so think about it, warm welcome warm cookie.
Jay Baer: It fits the brand standard right that’s why I wore a Plaid suits before you get to pick out my plan see that’s part of my kind of stand up comic sort of stage persona.
Jay Baer: It makes sense, so what you don’t want is a talk trigger that’s like yeah we we sell cars, but our talk trigger is everybody gets free bubble gum like yeah I don’t get it it doesn’t I don’t it doesn’t make sense right So those are the four.
David Horsager: I love it so that is interesting, I think about this for our business, you know I.
Jay Baer: don’t want you.
David Horsager: go with this, but we’ve thought about a lot in and we’ve you know for me okay so i’m.
David Horsager: You know this trust thing is is a big deal, we have a way of thinking about it but it’s like okay i’m going to be part of my thing is i’m not going to be stressed, for them like we’re going to serve them so well, so we take care of all the details on the opposite side but.
David Horsager: As far as a look it’s not going to be weird or not even unique not even going to the plan.
David Horsager: it’s going to be.
David Horsager: A dark like a not an odd suit not have this not have that any recommendations for people to think you know they’re kind of in this space where they’re not nothing about them is that odd or not odd, but like sometimes.
Jay Baer: would be well it doesn’t have to be something in almost every case.
Jay Baer: They talk trigger isn’t something that you already do.
Jay Baer: it’s something that you decide to do, but it just fits philosophically into your overall vibe.
Jay Baer: mean there is a point at which doubletree didn’t give out cookies long time ago, but there’s a point at which that did not happen so.
Jay Baer: It doesn’t have to be something you’re already doing, in fact, in almost every case it’s not but this might be a good time to talk briefly about the five types of talk.
David Horsager: triggers let’s do it i’ve got an.
Jay Baer: outline I love to get the four four requirements remarkable.
Jay Baer: repeatable reasonable relevant.
Jay Baer: All for those things must be true, then you want to talk trigger that is at least one of these five things okay.
Jay Baer: Talk double speed means you’re faster than your audience expects you to be there is an accounting firm in indianapolis called boggling often dodges totally unremarkable.
Jay Baer: Small accounting firm does the same thing every accounting firm does for the same price.
Jay Baer: Fine, except they reply to every client via phone or email within five minutes at all times five minute response time from an accounting firm they’ve got like 80 Google reviews, which is crazy for an accounting firm and they all mentioned how fast there.
Jay Baer: it’s outside your expected pattern.
Jay Baer: Like white super fast accounting firm that’s know where they all tell that story for sure so talk about speed is one.
Jay Baer: Talk about usefulness is one we were just more useful than your audience expects you to be more more kind of helpful and this is typically rooted in information sort of giving away free information is how that one works, and you have a tolerable.
Jay Baer: attitude, which is when you’re a little more sort of wacky or or irreverent then, then what people might expect you to be there’s a.
Jay Baer: there’s a great band that I talked about on stage and this one there they’re a group of seven session musicians from nashville incredibly accomplished jazz and blues players.
Jay Baer: But because they’re session musicians are contracted to labels they’re not allowed to tour and perform it’s just part of their contract, they only have to work in the studio for other musicians.
Jay Baer: So they get around that by dressing up wrapping themselves in Mummy clothes they literally are wrapped in Mummy bandages.
Jay Baer: And then they travel the whole country in secret, nobody knows literally nobody knows who they are still in the band is called here come the mummies.
Jay Baer: So that’s amazing right like if you listen to their music yeah, this is a great song, but if you watch them you’re like oh these guys are mummies like okay now i’m telling that story right so that’s that stackable attitude which is, which is one I really like.
Jay Baer: Talk about one.
Jay Baer: Of the one that we, the one that happens, the most often.
Jay Baer: Right is is when you give somebody more than then they expect right so.
David Horsager: We call that one talk about generosity.
Jay Baer: that’s right talk about generosity and and so that’s the one that is most common so free chocolate chip cookie talk about generosity.
Jay Baer: is the one that you see most often in the wild because it’s usually the one that’s the easiest to operationalize.
Jay Baer: But it doesn’t always it doesn’t it’s not inherently better or more tolerable it’s just the one that most people can think through how to do it easier.
Jay Baer: They expect this we give them that thing plus this other thing right so generosity is the one that’s most common but by no means the best.
Jay Baer: And the last one I think run five is yes, talk about empathy where you’re just you’re just more human then then customers expect you to be right, you just take better care of them, I was in for surgery earlier this year and two days later in the mail I got a handwritten Thank you note.
Jay Baer: From that was signed by the surgeon, the anesthesiologist and three different flavors of nurses.
Jay Baer: Thanks, very much for being here hope you feel better this wasn’t an elective surgery, this was like a surgery, I had to have and i’m like whoa wait a second.
Jay Baer: shouldn’t I be sending you a thank you note we have this we have this relationship upside down, but I really appreciated it and I tell that story all the time, because it was so unexpected.
Jay Baer: And that’s just sort of.
Jay Baer: Treating a human being, like a human being.
Jay Baer: When it’s time to do that, that one can be harder for bigger companies to do, although it worked for this hospital, it can be hard for bigger companies, because sometimes.
Jay Baer: Some TEAM members are more inherently empathetic than others, you can train for it but it’s sometimes hard for big companies.
David Horsager: there’s so much here, but before we get into a couple personal questions, I just have to ask how would you start you got a team you got a company.
David Horsager: How would you start in the in the book, just so everybody knows everybody can see it that’s watching but it’s talk triggers by Jager and Daniel 11 and you’ve got a whole process and there’s so many great.
David Horsager: ideas.
Jay Baer: So step process right in.
David Horsager: That process, how would How would I take my team i’m gonna get my team together at the boardroom.
Jay Baer: taters The worst thing you should do.
Jay Baer: The worst thing you should do is the thing that everybody does, unfortunately, which is they get ready in a conference room they brainstorm it if it was that easy you’d already have one it’s not that easy that’s why you need a book.
Jay Baer: So the first thing you want to do.
Jay Baer: Is, and this is slightly different than how it works in the book, but the first thing you should do is map your customer journey So what are all the touch points that you have with customers today website phone live event email invoice.
Jay Baer: reminder invoice right effort right, so you map that whole thing up customer journey map.
Jay Baer: And then you want to go interview some customers when we do this professionally as a consulting firm, we often will interview 18 customers.
Jay Baer: sometimes lose a survey it’s better as one on one phone calls, but you know you do what you can do what you want to ideally do is interview 18 customers, one on one six new customers.
Jay Baer: Six kind of customers that have been with you for a while and ideally six lost or lapsed customers.
Jay Baer: And what you do is you, you talk through that customer journey hey remember when you came to our website for the very first time.
Jay Baer: What reactions, did you have and what did you expect.
Jay Baer: And then you just shut up right just let them talk, you want to have them and i’ll walk you through the reactions and their expectation for each of those key touch points and inflection points because remember a talk trigger only works if it’s something that the customer doesn’t expect.
Jay Baer: And so to know what they don’t expect you first have to know what they do expect and we often think that we know what our customers expect but but i’ve been doing this for a long time.
Jay Baer: And it’s very common that that we don’t fully understand what customers expect we’re too close to it right you can’t see the label.
Jay Baer: Of the JAR that you’re in so it’s much better off to to let customers talk you through that and then what you do is you say okay here’s what they expected we actually create an expectations map.
Jay Baer: And then you say all right, the three most kind of important touch points, our first phone call send them the bill and the conversation we have about renewals.
Jay Baer: All right, those are the three most important things here’s what they expect for those what can we do at each of those three touch points are one of those three touch points.
Jay Baer: That they wouldn’t expect right, how can we be empathetic, how can we be generous like would be useful, whatever and and then you you figure out how to operationalize that talk trigger and then really importantly you test it.
Jay Baer: So what you want to do is say Okay, they talk trigger is going to be.
Jay Baer: letting meeting planners pick out your suit well, then you don’t do it for everybody, you do it for like every fourth person and then you check how talk about is.
Jay Baer: You ask them afterwards hey did you tell a story about anything, would you mentioned oh yeah I talk about the suit that great check.
Jay Baer: Right, and so what you’re looking for is sort of a talk ability threshold of about 15 20% right if 15 or 20% of the people who experienced it in test.
Jay Baer: talked about it, then you’ve got something and then you roll it out to everybody in your in your home free but, but just sort of like hey here’s a fun idea let’s put into practice now there’s more science to it than that are there should be.
David Horsager: Great well there is a whole lot more on doctors in the book and I just love the idea of genuine word of mouth both.
David Horsager: offline especially and, of course, that can become genuine online, which is is a big deal today so talk triggers by Derek J Baron day no lemon I don’t always recommends booklet books like this, or hold them up like this, or show how i’ve tagged things over, like.
Jay Baer: Know Pack is on the cover so that’s What if.
David Horsager: you’re not watching that to talk to her.
David Horsager: alpacas there you go so um yeah I probably should have said I didn’t dog eared i’ll pack a.
Jay Baer: packet unit.
David Horsager: So let’s just touch briefly on on a couple other things, then.
David Horsager: target personally, we talked a lot about.
David Horsager: Leading yourself well you’ve been an advisor to so many others from political to business to everything else, what are you doing to lead yourself well.
Jay Baer: I think, especially in the pandemic times.
Jay Baer: A couple things one to sort of steering my team my organization through the beginning of that and and we actually.
Jay Baer: Other than the speaking side of the business, which is down a little bit, for obvious reasons we actually grew the business during the pandemic.
Jay Baer: From a consultant standpoint which we’re really proud of and kept the whole team intact and things are going, are going great there, but personally I think it’s just continuing to re examine.
Jay Baer: What what i’m what makes me happy and what makes other people happy about me and and maybe it’s age or maybe it’s pandemic, but not being afraid to make changes what changes need to be made.
Jay Baer: I think especially successful leaders can fall into a pattern of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it and you kind of get calcified in your beliefs and in your ways and in your systems because look it got me this far.
Jay Baer: And, and I certainly understand the attraction of that thinking, but it can also be dangerous, when the world is changing as fast as well as changing today to rely on what has happened in the past, is probably.
Jay Baer: put some blinders on that don’t need to be there, so so more than anything else Dave I think that’s it for me i’m really trying to keep my eyes open to doing everything differently if that’s what it requires.
David Horsager: Is that part of you know we’re we’re close friends and.
David Horsager: We you know you’ve had quite the changes in your life if we can go there, a little bit and have talked about those ahead of time.
David Horsager: You in the last basically year you’ve become empty nesters with your kids who are all off to college or beyond now first job for the oldest you’ve you’ve you’ve you’ve moved.
David Horsager: One place at least you’ve.
David Horsager: you’ve you’ve sold your presumably last big business sale, maybe I don’t know what what’s that.
Jay Baer: Well yeah.
David Horsager: You know you’ve had massive change and and challenge in the midst of this and you’ve been open about it in ways what, how is that change do as a leader, all these things and more.
Jay Baer: Well, i’ve always been pretty good at.
Jay Baer: compartmentalizing things and sort of handling a lot of things at once.
Jay Baer: More so from an activity standpoint less so from an emotional standpoint so yeah it’s been a super weird year i’ve lived 10 years in the last you know 10 months for sure.
Jay Baer: In a lot of ways, but, and I think all of us have at some level, because the pandemic and run circumstances but i’ll tell you what the what what all of this has done Dave is.
Jay Baer: put a cap on my own ambitions right somebody asked me today what’s what’s your number one lesson that fanatic, I said look I don’t need to be everything to everybody, every time and I certainly spent a lot of my career trying to make that happen trying to say yes to everybody and everything.
Jay Baer: And I realized that when you do that, you actually are robbing and only the people who you care about the most of time and attention and and.
Jay Baer: and love, but nobody gets all of you, at that point right and and even as a leader it’s not great, for your organization when everybody’s just getting sort of partial attention or or whatever you can squeeze in between meetings to help them or mentor them or what have you so.
Jay Baer: It sounds productive and simple, but there is some wisdom, I think, to doing less but doing it better.
David Horsager: We have we have a new phrase around here.
David Horsager: Just about margin these days margin covers a multitude of sins like when you actually have time for someone to look at them.
David Horsager: And, as you know, drivers like you’ve been in i’ve been it’s it can be a challenge to create it and, be it and live it and kind of when we feel like Oh, but we’re doing this work for the greater good right.
David Horsager: Right pausing.
David Horsager: Right, and I think i’m certainly i’m grateful because you brought a lot of wisdom not you know all the business of wisdom that you have but.
David Horsager: you’ve in the last couple years and, through this time brought a lot of wisdom just from balance and margin and leading well in the midst of challenge and i’m grateful for that thanks.
Jay Baer: I think it’s easy to fall into the trap that activity it’s a success metric.
David Horsager: Right totally.
Jay Baer: know that that that the quote unquote busier you are, the better you’re doing and.
Jay Baer: I don’t know that that correlation is as strong as we sometimes think it is.
David Horsager: Absolutely and that’s directly from a marketing guy that wants to see people are busy silicon marketing.
David Horsager: Right yeah yeah we are yeah here’s a funny here’s a funny scary Stat Forrester, has come out the report it said that.
Jay Baer: The number of marketing messages.
Jay Baer: Up 40% this year.
Jay Baer: 40% in one year would.
Jay Baer: Just you know nobody’s saying you know what I wish would happen, I wish I could get 40% more marketing messages as a customer right so.
Jay Baer: i’ve got a new a new keynote about that this idea that that customers are building a moat around their attention.
Jay Baer: So the talks, called the three drop bridges, how do I get the drawbridge just lowered and get access to your customers attention.
Jay Baer: Because we’re all besieged at all times by by messages and by this, and this is cheaper, and this is on netflix or whatever, and people are just like you know what unsubscribe delete ignore.
Jay Baer: Absolutely they’re just they’re building a moat right there just like going into the into the tortoise Shell and and you can’t.
Jay Baer: Talk about in this talk you can’t see demoted Castle right that’s why there’s a moat there you can just it’s not gonna it’s not gonna work.
Jay Baer: But you can get invited in right the drawbridge, and so this this whole idea of how do you get invited in when nobody actually wants to talk to you there’s a lot of trust lessons in that as well.
David Horsager: absolutely all right we’ve got something for next time.
David Horsager: There you go before we go to the last question what a treat it’s been Jay thanks for spending so much time, I know we said we’re shortening up our.
David Horsager: podcasts and we just.
Jay Baer: have been there’s been 500 episodes of my podcast I noticed like.
David Horsager: Oh, my goodness hey tell us where can we find out more about Jay or connect with you.
Jay Baer: super exciting i’ve got a new newsletter called the bare facts comes out every two weeks it combines customer experience lessons.
Jay Baer: statistic, you should know typically there’s a tequila review coming tequila collector there’s a life hack.
Jay Baer: And a bunch of other fun stuff So if you go to the bare facts COM BA er the bare facts COM, you can subscribe would love your attention.
Jay Baer: On that, and as I just alluded to, I also have a podcast it’s all about social media and big companies which may not be your thing but it’s probably the thing of somebody you know it’s called social pros nearly 500 episodes weekly since January of 2012 social pros podcast.
David Horsager: Social pros so you can find all of us, of course, in the show notes and we’ll get that all over the place, and we thank you Jay for being here hey it’s it’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.
Jay Baer: Who is a leader, that I trust, and why i’ll tell you what it’s actually ironic I just wrote about this in my newsletter last week, I actually really trust Ambassador from Delta.
Jay Baer: Delta, like all airlines have had a tough go with it operationally some of it is circumstantial some of it, I think, is you know, mismanagement, but it is what it is.
Jay Baer: But I pick brands, the same way I picked friends not based on how they do when times are good, but how they do when times are bad.
Jay Baer: And I think that’s the area where delta really separates themselves and ED separates himself as a leader, the communication that he sent a frequent flyers the the the true.
Jay Baer: Apologies that they have issued to their customers is such a contrast to how the rest of the airline industry is handled that I wrote a whole piece about it for the newsletter so, especially because it’s so top of mind for me i’ll say Ambassador from Delta.
David Horsager: I love it I can’t tell you how grateful I am that delta is my hub airline here in minneapolis that MSP because it’s there just you know you people can find something wrong somewhere, but circling yet overall they’re better and they it’s just it’s absolutely i’m grateful and.
Jay Baer: One of the many reasons you’ll never move right i’ll never exactly two reasons on the flight front right go 100 or 200 flights, a year is like from minneapolis I can get anywhere in the country in three hours.
David Horsager: yep so I don’t have time zone, the people in New York that killed themselves going to La.
David Horsager: And number two I Delta.
David Horsager: delta so.
Jay Baer: yeah if you live in Atlanta, you can.
Jay Baer: salt lake city could be a place, you can move, but the list is pretty sure yeah.
David Horsager: It is.
David Horsager: yeah but so anyway, well, it grateful for you grateful for dropping all this wisdom and mostly grateful for your friendship and thinking about you, as you keep on keeping on in this new phase of life in many.
David Horsager: ways and everybody knows you’re still speaking and you’re still out there.
David Horsager: and
Jay Baer: feeling great feeling great.
David Horsager: yep that’s awesome so that’s been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.