Kent Svenson, Author at David Horsager

Ep. 60: Ryan Leak on The GREATEST Tool For Change In Diversity (Part 2)

14 December 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Ryan Leak, Speaker, Author, Executive Coach, and Podcaster, to discuss the GREATEST tool for change in diversity.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Ryan’s Bio:
Ryan Leak is a speaker, author, executive coach, and podcaster from Dallas, TX. He’s known as the ultimate risk taker from two documentaries, one being the Surprise Wedding where he proposed to his wife and married her on the same day after he planned the wedding for two years. The second documentary is called Chasing Failure that displays his journey of trying out for the Phoenix Suns. He speaks to over 50,000 people a month and trains upwards of 12,000 leaders a year from C-Suite Executives to professional athletes.

Ryan’s Links:
Website: https://www.ryanleak.com/
“Chasing Failure” by Ryan Leak: https://amzn.to/3ru3dw2
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanleak/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanleak/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ryanleak
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryanleak
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqoJtQgM2gMlGf8BaZIZglw

Key Quotes:
1. “Who knows who I really am?”
2. “People can know your name but never know your pain.”
3. “Being authentic is good for us.”
4. “Authenticity is massive when it comes to building trust.”
5. “Friendship is by far the greatest tool for change.”
6. “We all need someone in our life to take a chance on our potential.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Chasing Failure” by Ryan Leak: https://amzn.to/3ru3dw2

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

David’s Links:
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36AXtp9
Follow us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/2S9O6mj
Follow David on Twitter: https://bit.ly/2BEXgla
Follow David on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2Xbsg5q
Follow David on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2QDFOE5

Show Transcript

Kent Svenson: Welcome to The Trusted Leader Show. I’m Kent Svenson, producer of The Trusted Leader Show.

Kent Svenson: And this episode is part 2 of David’s interview with Ryan Leak. If you missed part 1, Ryan discussed why we should all be chasing failure, the 5 questions we should be asking when counting the cost of our dreams, and why our calendar’s will actually determine the trajectory of our lives.

Kent Svenson: If you missed last week’s episode, definitely go check it out. But let’s rejoin them now for part 2 of David’s interview with Ryan Leak. Enjoy the show.

David Horsager: Let’s jump into this, you know.

David Horsager: The self leadership questions because you’re asking a few questions, maybe not all 12 of them, but your what are a few you know, in your learning from leading yourself and leading.

David Horsager: inspiring executives and really pro athletes, or whatever you get these 12 questions you’re thinking about and I think the interesting thing we talked about this earlier where.

David Horsager: You know you learn an executive coach and you told them something they didn’t do much, yes, through a question that started them sometimes ignited transformation, what are some of those questions on self leadership that we can take a peek into.

Ryan Leak: Oh you’re asking for a sneak preview.

David Horsager: peak that’s What about giving value here.

David Horsager: This is why we do the.

Ryan Leak: Okay sneaky agree, this is the insider information without paying you right here yeah.

Ryan Leak: So one of the questions of the.

Ryan Leak: That, I think everyone should be asking themselves to help themselves grow.

Ryan Leak: Let me see which one do I want to to reveal um.

Ryan Leak: The one, the one that I think has resonated the most with clients and friend, is is this question, who knows who I really am I call this the transparency question.

Ryan Leak: The reason for this is is We live in a society where we post our best hide the rest.

Ryan Leak: I know so many people who have gotten divorced over the last two years and they still had to show up on zoom and perform and by the time they told their co workers and colleagues and friends, they had gotten a divorce, the typical response that they get is, I never knew.

Ryan Leak: I never knew that you, you were having having issues, and so, most people take their issues and they go into a corner and they just suffer alone, and nobody actually knows who they really are people can know your name and never know your pain and that that can be.

Ryan Leak: You can find yourself in a pretty unhealthy situation.

Ryan Leak: By doing that, and so I think the transparency question is absolutely massive, especially in a day and age, where mental health is on the rise, and you don’t want to be the one that is ostracized or pity or.

Ryan Leak: In a lot of conversations around diversity equity and inclusion, you know if you’re a minority of any kind, if you’re the least of in a room.

Ryan Leak: And it can it can be a thing of going i’m not going to tell anybody who are really feel because I have more to lose I lose my job I don’t want to, and I just.

Ryan Leak: i’ve got a really good friend who he suffers from panic attacks can’t get on a plane.

Ryan Leak: He loved to travel with me so, but he he literally cannot, and he was telling me a story about one time he got on a plane and he he had a panic attack and begged the captain and the stewardesses to open the gate and they said, you know how much money, it will cost us to do that.

Ryan Leak: And he’s like I can’t breathe.

Ryan Leak: And you just think about man and how many people are going through so much and you just you just never know.

Ryan Leak: Who they really are until there is something about being authentic that is so good for us and.

Ryan Leak: And we we just work in a society where that’s not really applaud and all that much and and having transparency be it’s like hey we pay you to do a job so so do your job.

Ryan Leak: And so I think the world could be a better place if we were all just a little bit more transparent and I like to say, everybody doesn’t need to know.

Ryan Leak: But some Somebody needs to know who you really are and so that that’s one of the questions that I think helps develop leaders and people under huge.

David Horsager: What we see it all the time if you’re doing it, we say this if you’re doing leadership alone you’re doing it wrong you got to have team.

David Horsager: And by the way, you’re absolutely right to that you don’t share this with every everybody isn’t your you don’t dump every bad thing or every struggles to everybody, but you have to have a place, you have to have a space, you have to have.

David Horsager: Accountability a mastermind close friends or mentors or whatever to do that, you know let’s talk about this uh you know building trust.

David Horsager: Diversity equity inclusion belonging.

David Horsager: For our audience all these trusted leaders and.

David Horsager: You know, we know that one of the biggest studies out of Harvard shows diversity on its own, we only focus on diversity.

David Horsager: tends to infect in in one study, one of the biggest of its kind kind of said it pits people against each other.

David Horsager: But when you increase trust you get em meant benefits, as you know, a diversity equity inclusion.

David Horsager: Or you know, being a man of color what can all of us learn about how we could build trust, so that we enjoy the benefits of all people, as we lead a more diverse environment, then maybe we ever have in.

Ryan Leak: Here absolutely so great question I think authenticity is massive when it comes to to building trust every minority of any kind of has the same superpower thanks can smell it fraud.

Ryan Leak: They all have the same similar they can smell it from thinking always if let’s just say I was speaking to a group of women and I started speaking on behalf of women and their struggle.

Ryan Leak: Every women in the audience going.

Ryan Leak: huh.

Ryan Leak: How do you, you can tell somebody that raised some stats versus somebody that has actually sat with.

Ryan Leak: Women and really understood their struggle to make sense, and so I think sometimes what happens in the marketplace is we think okay well, one of the ways that we can.

Ryan Leak: Because here’s here’s here’s a big fear that a lot of people that nobody wants to be considered a race, nobody nobody wants to be considered, no one wants to be.

Ryan Leak: That person that isn’t trusted nobody wants to be there, and so what happens is is we try to put makeup on our website or an eye and in in full transparency, I used to help companies, change the website and they will do exactly what I told them to do.

Ryan Leak: Their website changed, but they did not.

Ryan Leak: and

David Horsager: How do they change, how do we, how do we create change we’re talking about this, all the time, how do we change the culture of organizations.

David Horsager: have changed thinking, how do we actually had we act change is not easy.

Ryan Leak: way to personal habit, I used to do this habit train, we still have it as.

David Horsager: Part of the curriculum.

David Horsager: And I would ask you.

David Horsager: How many of you’ve changed a big habit last 20 or more pounds in your life don’t have to first of all, so how many have wanted every team to have 100%.

David Horsager: How many ever change a habit, it was like 6%.

Ryan Leak: Actually, the change to.

David Horsager: happen so.

David Horsager: The ability to actually change whether it’s um you know I mean some of these systems were titled racial inequity systems or other system how what are some things you’ve seen, maybe even an individual coaching session that actually started to see change.

Ryan Leak: i’m going to give you 111 way to change in this particular area of diversity and inclusion.

Ryan Leak: friendship.

Ryan Leak: Friendship program certification.

Ryan Leak: Reading a book and give you some information on some history but friendship is by far the greatest tool for change, because when you’re friends with someone who is marginalized when you’re friends with someone who is ostracize.

Ryan Leak: You can tell.

Ryan Leak: You can tell them and said well we’ve got Indian neighbor in the neighbors who have invited us to a festival of lights, that is typically mostly Indian but they’ve invited us as their print.

Ryan Leak: In so we’re going as their friends.

Ryan Leak: it’s going to be very, very difficult for any of us to understand someone we’ve never sat with that we’ve never broken bread with that we’ve never had.

Ryan Leak: A meal with in, so I think one of the most endearing questions that we can be asking someone that is different than us in any way, shape or form.

Ryan Leak: Is what’s it like to be you.

Ryan Leak: what’s it like to be you in our organization what’s it like to be the only woman on the board what’s it like to be a person of color in an organization well this onboarding like for you.

Ryan Leak: Are there moments, where you think if you are honest, that you could lose your job.

Ryan Leak: What what what is what is that.

Ryan Leak: What is what is that, like, for you.

Ryan Leak: let’s see.

David Horsager: Really quick.

Ryan Leak: What you know.

David Horsager: You know let’s jump in there, because you your leader and some of the spaces i’ve seen in quite white dominated arenas in certain spaces, at least, that I know that you’re in.

David Horsager: it’s like to be you.

David Horsager: hey you’re feeding the questions buddy.

Ryan Leak: Right.

Ryan Leak: It is.

Ryan Leak: extremely difficult and extremely rewarding at the same time.

Ryan Leak: But, for me, it is a.

Ryan Leak: You know, there is a.

Ryan Leak: How, there is a there is a measurement when I walk in a room of going how black, can I be.

Ryan Leak: Think about.

Ryan Leak: Sports that.

Ryan Leak: black and white people love.

Ryan Leak: And then you think about sports are subjects that are more white centric or more black centric in so as an nba guy I rarely talk about nba stuff because a lot of the spaces, that I am entering into are more dominated by hunting.

Ryan Leak: Fishing or football, of which those sports are not of interest to me, nor have I ever participated in.

Ryan Leak: And so what I what I look for is commonality, but there is a an awareness, for me, of guy hey don’t talk about this simply because it won’t relate to the idea, and so, so I think that there’s there’s there is a.

Ryan Leak: A constant and especially just traveling now it gets harder because you’re going into a room you’re going is this a mask room is this a non mask room.

Ryan Leak: Is this a vaccinating environment is a non vaccinated environment is this a polarizing environment is this a red state is this a blue state is this a.

Ryan Leak: You know, are you going to be chastised for not wearing a mask are you going to be chastised for wearing a mask you so all of those things as a person that speaks to a lot of people I do more reading of rooms than I do.

David Horsager: To that point.

David Horsager: On that exact point, I would say that is what we should all do.

David Horsager: period, we should think of serving them like i’ve seen speakers, and you have to that are out there to serve themselves to have their own therapy.

David Horsager: Where are my question always every paragraph when we teach her are certified folks and coaches it’s like asking what does this mean to them.

David Horsager: So, in one way that’s a great like their stories I can’t tell from I people know I grew up on the farm and all this and I tell certain things that that.

David Horsager: that people can relate to, and it turns out, still in our country about 80% of people that only a generation or two remove gruesome grampa at least a grandpa touch somehow.

David Horsager: Many did, but many dentists, I can tell all those things right, so I think thinking about the audience is key, no matter what but but tell me one more level of what for you as a person of color.

David Horsager: And let’s even go deeper because I would assume it’s easier almost to go and speak and leave, but what about a relationship, because I know your path past leader very well who loved hunting and fishing, for example.

Ryan Leak: But how in.

David Horsager: That let’s say you’re having a leadership team meeting.

David Horsager: yeah what what you know you were I don’t know how long have a voice or not, but what what.

David Horsager: What was difficult about that, so we can, as you know, peek behind and say this is different, this is something I don’t get or understand, we can read.

David Horsager: It and we can read all these things that you said, we can even have friends, but you have a unique perspective as as kind of an executive on the team.

Ryan Leak: yeah totally you know, for me, I I even have to think through what do I wear because, so you know you’re doing you know 1520 corporate gigs in November, should I wear a navy blue blazer and sky blue shirt.

Ryan Leak: to fit in.

Ryan Leak: Or should I dress how I dress I have both So if I fit in it’s like well you you go, like everybody else, except just just black.

Ryan Leak: So so.

David Horsager: Here is I think there’s even another deeper level right here.

David Horsager: Because I can say.

David Horsager: In who I am I can wear cowboy boots and jeans and feel really comfortable I could wear something else but i’m going to actually think about the audience.

David Horsager: And where the blue blazer and the blue shirt.

David Horsager: Because I want them just to quickly trust me i’ve noticed that works.

David Horsager: So why is it.

David Horsager: easier for me there’s something here that’s a little unfair in that it’s easier for me.

David Horsager: To just think about them and do it than it is fair for you, is something we need to understand what is it.

Ryan Leak: You know I think we’re all trying to measure what will be accepted versus rejected I i’ll give a someone who is on the other side of the pendulum for me.

David Horsager: They are, by the way.

David Horsager: This is great.

Ryan Leak: You know I love this conversation so Eric Thomas okay.

Ryan Leak: Someone said number one motivational speaker in the world.

Ryan Leak: He is black he speaks in Jordan 11th Jordan shorts and his own branded T shirt or sweatshirt if it’s cold.

Ryan Leak: And a hat.

Ryan Leak: i’m speaking for one of the largest organizations in the world, next week.

Ryan Leak: There is no way I could wear Jordan 11s, Jordan shorts and my own brand of t-shirt.

Ryan Leak: There is no way.

Ryan Leak: I can do it Eric Thomas does.

David Horsager: and get let me ask you this, what, why is that because there’s no way I could either wear what I wear daily.

David Horsager: You know, so what tell me why that is because i’ve seen people hire on personality, I know a guy that wears nothing I would wear that happens to be a white guy.

David Horsager: You know, but there’s something here what why.

David Horsager: Is that that you couldn’t Is it because of that audience, or is it because of who you are who they hired you to be that you represented yourself as.

Ryan Leak: You know I think Eric has gotten to a level where he just said hey I can just be myself and i’m the best in the world you’re going to get me or you can’t but i’m not i’m not changing for you, you know.

David Horsager: i’ve never heard about authenticity why don’t I like I can I can go in with what am I gonna feel authentic but what about you, I mean.

Ryan Leak: I I love clothes like what i’m wearing right now.

David Horsager: yeah.

Ryan Leak: You look great it.

Ryan Leak: I couldn’t see you wearing it.

David Horsager: Why is that.

Ryan Leak: I mean it’s it’s like.

David Horsager: For me.

Ryan Leak: So, again I would I would wear this, but you know today, I had to think or i’m going to be on the Dallas news station right so.

Ryan Leak: Later today i’m going to go film so i’m thinking okay what’s TV appropriate.

Ryan Leak: And you don’t want to be distracting which you want to be sharp and you want it, you know, but you also don’t want i’m not a khaki pants navy blue blazer person so so thinking you know i’m not going to wear nba sweat on TV today but part of that is.

Ryan Leak: You don’t want to, I think, for me, scare people, because in part of.

Ryan Leak: Part of you know I speak up you know, one of the one of the largest churches in America, that is, you know it has quite a few white people, and I would say over the last year and a half what i’ve been able to do is earn their trust.

Ryan Leak: And, and so part of that if I.

Ryan Leak: You know Nike data.

Ryan Leak: or for a weekend or I think there would be a there is a stigma that has come with people who aren’t quote unquote professional.

Ryan Leak: And so, those are some hurdles in some stigmas that have come with the African American Community that when I walked through the door, there is.

Ryan Leak: You know I had one client they’re like, why are you always early like you’re way too early and i’m like well there’s a stigma that like people are late and I, and I feel like i’m.

Ryan Leak: Fixing it.

Ryan Leak: or or that I have to prove to you that.

Ryan Leak: that’s not the case, you know and so there’s this even there’s there’s places, you know if i’m working with a professional sports team i’ll come suited up.

Ryan Leak: And they’re like I mean you’re not overdressed but like you’re like really, really like on right now and i’m like why I almost feel like I have to represent a different brand of black, if you will, because so many people have had.

Ryan Leak: Either a negative experience with an African American of sorts, and so.

Ryan Leak: there’s people that i’ve recommended that are black that I gotten feedback from, and you know, there was just a litany of things that I feel like i’m like Okay, those are things that coming in the door, I have to fix any potential.

Ryan Leak: wrongs, if you will, and that and that can be that can be challenging.

Ryan Leak: I think for for me.

David Horsager: that’s a big weight to carry.

Ryan Leak: yeah you know in part of it is like I it’s a weight to carry but like I said it’s also very rewarding to.

Ryan Leak: really show up for my client and just do a really good job.

David Horsager: mm hmm.

Ryan Leak: there’s something about going hey i’m here to add value to your life.

Ryan Leak: And it’s not about me and I wanna I want to have your company be better, I want to help you become better and, at the end it’s like.

Ryan Leak: Man I just heard a really great message, or I just had a really great session with a guy who just so happens to be black.

Ryan Leak: But the paradigm of black people are this way I feel like I have an opportunity to.

Ryan Leak: To change that because i’m going well hey that that’s that’s actually not true, but I can argue with you and say hey here’s why it’s not true.

Ryan Leak: Or, I can just do the best that I possibly can, and just do and just do a good job so, so I think that those are some.

Ryan Leak: But but, and I have to say this, when I there’s a there’s a slide that I do whenever I do a diversity keynote I call it the breadcrumbs slide.

Ryan Leak: And what I always do is I always follow the breadcrumbs as to how I got that opportunity in on that breadcrumb slides is it’s a slide of white people who gave me access to opportunities.

Ryan Leak: That I wouldn’t have had, without them, and so part of what I like to communicate to people is going hey you might go matt Ryan see you, you made it Ryan see you you’ve done it we don’t even have a problem.

Ryan Leak: Well, yes, enough of what you don’t see about the behind the scenes of my story is there is someone that has been unlocking doors for me all along.

Ryan Leak: In so if there wasn’t about mirror if there wasn’t a Jason strand you mean it may not even be on this podcast right now, and so.

Ryan Leak: There was a at one point my parents could not afford to keep me in a private school in rockford Illinois, which is the second most dangerous city in America, so the trajectory of my life should have been completely different.

Ryan Leak: But there was a ninth grade English teacher who said hey I see something in your boys what me and my husband will pay for them to stay at the school.

Ryan Leak: And that allowed me to meet this next person and this next person that led me to go to the College that I go to, then I got connected to the President of that college, who made an introduction for me to for me to land my first job.

Ryan Leak: And then, that I mean, and I can follow these breadcrumbs until the behind the scenes, and my story.

Ryan Leak: is an incredible amount of white people who gave me opportunities that I was not ready for but they took a chance on me anyways, and so what I encourage people to do is is to say hey.

Ryan Leak: I think we all need someone in our life to take a chance on our potential, and I think we also need to be taking chances on other people for them to help them see their potential, otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting in my seat, right now, if it wasn’t for.

Ryan Leak: A lot of really great people that said hey we’re on your Ryan, like a chant and so that makes me want to give other people a chance and so So yes, it’s a.

Ryan Leak: it’s it’s challenging for me, but at the same time, the behind the scenes of is what I really want people to see of going.

Ryan Leak: There might be a minority of some sort in your organization and going yeah they can rise up but yeah there’s a lot of people who work just as hard as me that are black or that are female or or whatever, and the difference between me and them is not talent it’s opportunity.

Ryan Leak: And access.

Ryan Leak: To rooms and boardrooms and tables that they didn’t get that I got maybe at age 18 that I really didn’t deserve to be in the room, but I was invited by somebody someone did me a favor someone.

Ryan Leak: Just just gave me gave me access I wouldn’t be doing stuff with nba teams if it wasn’t, for I mean literally I could point to.

Ryan Leak: amazing white people that weren’t even trying to be.

Ryan Leak: inclusive.

Ryan Leak: They just said hey there’s this kid.

Ryan Leak: Well, I think your players would relate to, and I think you should give them a chance and they had no idea who I was they gave me an opportunity anyways so things grew from there, I started it well, yes, but um.

Ryan Leak: But that that’s what I hope people understand about if you’re in any majority category.

Ryan Leak: Hard work is not enough.

Ryan Leak: You need somebody to give you an opportunity to be heard and and I think that that’s huge.

David Horsager: Lots here and lots more questions I told you, we weren’t going to.

David Horsager: Go too long and what did we do with keeping going we’re going to go on for another one.

David Horsager: You gotta land this plane, but boy I hope we can have you back i’d love to see you at.

David Horsager: Our summit, but I.

David Horsager: A couple of big things and I somebody told me this back in college, the greatest tool for changes friendship, in that, and that is huge and I think this question, we need to ask, as leaders what’s it like to be you.

David Horsager: what’s it like to be you here.

David Horsager: what’s it like to be you, especially as we’re trying to make a higher trust more inclusive environment on our teams lots more to say lots more to think about the book is chasing failure there’s a new one around the corner so start reading chasing failure before you.

David Horsager: Before we have the other one on your desk the best place to find out more about Riley.

Ryan Leak: Riley calm Ryan Lee calm i’m Ryan league everywhere Twitter instagram tick tock.

Ryan Leak: There is another Ryan Lee professional soccer player actually on that out, but apparently he did not get.

Ryan Leak: The URLs of everything everything else so i’d be fun so Ryan like everywhere, but Riley calm, is where is where you where you will find all of the all of the Info that you need on me.

David Horsager: This has been a treat we always end with this final question it’s a trusted leader show who’s a leader you trust and why.

Ryan Leak: Oh later, I trust, and why what a great question um.

Ryan Leak: You know I would say Jason strand Jason strand, he is the senior pastor of very large church either book church somewhere i’m sure, a lot of your audience may be familiar with that church.

Ryan Leak: It may not.

Ryan Leak: But you know, the level of integrity that he operates with and his he so unassuming sell unassuming.

Ryan Leak: doesn’t I think he has maybe one or two social media profiles that are not have kept at all.

Ryan Leak: Most people in his position want to leverage it for more fame or more success but.

Ryan Leak: You know he’s he’s he is.

Ryan Leak: i’m trying to think of the best way to say he is the most special normal person and leader i’ve ever met.

Ryan Leak: him or heard that phrase the of the most special normal person yeah.

David Horsager: Jason and let him know you said that that’s all.

Ryan Leak: Right what it what encapsulates like his.

Ryan Leak: Easier so down to earth he so.

Ryan Leak: manage he’s just he’s just trying to lead a great organization he’s he’s not trying to he’s just laser focused on his tasks he’s not really thinking about much outside of that and.

Ryan Leak: And just just his his level of of integrity of of you know, trying to add value to people’s lives and ultimately their faith and I just think it’s I think it’s really cool so he’s an easy one to trust.

David Horsager: love it.

David Horsager: yeah wow.

David Horsager: Ryan Leak. Thank you. Thanks for this time today.

Ryan Leak: My pleasure.

David Horsager: Somewhat tree tree to connect.

David Horsager: like this is thanks for sharing with this audience more to come with Ryan Leak that’s been the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 59: Ryan Leak on Why You SHOULD Chase Failure (Part 1)

7 December 2021

Kent Svenson

No comments

Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Ryan Leak, Speaker, Author, Executive Coach, and Podcaster, to discuss why you SHOULD chase failure.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Key Quotes:
1. “What’s so bad about failure?”
2. “Failure is the common denominator of the most successful people in the world.”
3. “You gotta miss some shots to make some shots.”
4. “Your calendar will determine the trajectory of your life.”
5. “You gotta spend money to make money.”
6. “We long for routine.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Chasing Failure” by Ryan Leak: https://amzn.to/3ru3dw2

Buy David’s NEWEST Book “Trusted Leader”: https://amzn.to/3luyqf1

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager again i’ve got a special guest an amazing gentlemen you’re gonna have some surprises in store today but welcome to the show Ryan Leak.

Ryan Leak: Man what an honor it is to be here i’m really looking forward to this conversation.

David Horsager: Likewise, well you know a little bit about Ryan, many of you might know him he speaks all over the world, he affects maybe 50,000 or more people a month, he is an executive coach he’s an author he’s a filmmaker he you know we have so many mutual friends.

David Horsager: This is finally have a little bit more intimate intimate connection but there’s no surprises about you, we just got to.

David Horsager: get out of the way if anybody seen the documentaries both of the phoenix suns and also tell us, just a quick.

David Horsager: Quick quick story about this marriage proposal you proposed and got married the same day.

David Horsager: After two years of planning.

David Horsager: yeah get into your book and how that even aligns with really who you.

Ryan Leak: Are but tell all of that.

Ryan Leak: Well, when me my wife or native native for five years you’re 30 I or Tele French thought would be cool to get engaged married on the same day, I had no idea what that meant, so I guess it started planning a wedding behind her back June 7 2013.

Ryan Leak: get down on one knee instead of manda we marry me, she said yes, I said just getting we marry me today.

Ryan Leak: And we opened up this lounge room door and about 85 of our family and friends are standing in there with the sign that said today rolled in the dress hair stylist makeup artist.

Ryan Leak: Everything that you would need to get engaged and married on the same day, but that, on YouTube about four months later, went viral guys to do.

Ryan Leak: a bunch of TV shows, and you know, led to a bunch of fun stuff which actually is how we actually even got the book chasing failure because we want to clean the TV show.

Ryan Leak: And on the TV show my wife surprise me by getting me connected with the late, great Kobe bryant and I was like oh my gosh what is happening right now, and so colby invited me out to staple Center.

Ryan Leak: To just come hang out with the lakers and I played college basketball was an all American.

Ryan Leak: At a D3 ish school why I say D3 is is because our D3.

Ryan Leak: status was pending the years I was playing, and so we were in not the nc double a we were in the ncc double eight which stands for for national Christian college athletics association, so I like to say, amongst Christians.

Ryan Leak: I was really, really good but I never I never pursued the pros and so getting ready to meet Kobe i’m thinking man I gotta I gotta go for this and I just realized the odds were stacked against me and then I was gonna fail.

Ryan Leak: And then I woke up the next day and said but what’s so bad about failure, I mean isn’t this the common denominator of the most successful people in the world, so let’s give it a shot, so that is, that is how chasing failure, the book was birthed and that’s a little bit about me.

David Horsager: that’s a great start and you’ve got two amazing kiddos and amazing wife, but your whole you know if I look at your life and what you’re about.

David Horsager: you’ve done some amazing things, but it is marked by this risk taking this willingness to.

David Horsager: Face failure and I love what you say in the book even.

David Horsager: Basically, the the own the people you admire the people you love the people you look up to they all failed, and yet we’re all sitting here thinking we want to get around the failure we want to and you kind of make this this point of let’s chase failure if we want to be like that.

Ryan Leak: Absolutely you just I think we all if let’s say we’re a songwriter we all want to write a hit song you only want to write hits but you got to write some bad songs to get a hit song.

Ryan Leak: You got to miss some shots to make some shots I mean it’s all a part of solid part of the process, no matter anybody in this world that wants to do anything.

Ryan Leak: They have to try things and I think the last.

Ryan Leak: Three years somebody said this to me, the other day, they said i’m not sure if i’m ready for my junior year of Kobe and I just thought has it been that long it really have but i’d like to say, the last three years.

Ryan Leak: i’ve really taught us that if you’re not innovating if you’re not thinking outside the box, you may not survive in this marketplace that that we work in because things are constantly changing and most people don’t like change and cove at 19 did not ask us for permission.

Ryan Leak: And so I think people now more than ever.

Ryan Leak: have to be willing to try something and take some risk.

David Horsager: How do you how do you do it, so you know you took a risk your wife said yes oh lovely story I get to be on a little queen latifah show.

David Horsager: You take some risks.

David Horsager: You know there wasn’t a huge downside, with getting a try it with the sons, even though you didn’t make the.

David Horsager: team right.

David Horsager: hello, even though it’s amazing right but, but now, what are you doing to chase failure now, what are you doing you’re going.

David Horsager: To be you know executive coach to pro athletes and you’re getting to speak in some of the biggest platforms in the world.

David Horsager: yeah what how are you chasing failure now.

Ryan Leak: Well, you know it’s The funny thing about I think all successful people not even just myself is we give the illusion.

Ryan Leak: Of highlights, we give the illusion that we never have down days that we never get rejected that no one is telling us no, there will never be a published list of guests you’ve requested to be on your show that told you know.

Ryan Leak: it’ll never happen.

David Horsager: Right.

Ryan Leak: or any show no one publishes that yeah I get to speak at some really, really great companies, I have a speaker’s bureau is great they pitched me to 230 companies this year well sure 10 to 15 said yes, but what do you think keeps me up at night.

Ryan Leak: Right those other you know, so you just think about all of those other 215 that that i’m just going what what what did I do wrong.

Ryan Leak: What what what what’s wrong me and so as far as like me and my team go.

Ryan Leak: we’re always chasing failure always trying new things we we came up with this thing the other day called insta documentaries and we were like can we do 62nd documentaries for instagram and so.

Ryan Leak: We budgeted out film the whole deal and it looked great it sounded great the script was just bad and I wrote it and so it’s not me you’ll never see it, but we tried it.

Ryan Leak: Does that make sense, like we were trying to figure out ways to create helpful content that adds value to people’s lives and so.

Ryan Leak: This Friday, we are going to the studio we booked for four hours and a little bit right before I got on this podcast I the the head director is like hey So what do we do on Friday I went great question so really great question.

Ryan Leak: Where where we’re going to we’re going to try some stuff we’re going to film a lot.

Ryan Leak: What will come out of it is still is still tbd but that’s that’s what i’ve been doing my whole life i’ve just been jumping off of the diving board and teaching myself to swim so even with my internal team on the book side of things, was you know we said hey.

Ryan Leak: We need to hit New York Times that’s the goal we’re going to hit New York Times here’s what here’s what here’s what happened, David it was like.

Ryan Leak: Everyone on my team elevated their game everyone started bringing their a game, because the goal was higher, so the book comes out.

Ryan Leak: We we sell more than enough to hit New York Times, you can pull the numbers, you can see how many I sold that week versus the books that were actually on the New York Times, but.

Ryan Leak: I doubt the New York Times, is going to remove Matthew mcconaughey for Ryan league at this stage in my career and so, so we did not hit New York Times and and I was that was a bummer for me, because we we put a lot of energy, a lot of resources and to make that happen.

Ryan Leak: But again, my message of chasing failure is easy to write tougher to live.

Ryan Leak: And we hit USA today, so my friends are like trying to celebrate me they’re like do USA today that’s awesome i’m like no it’s not.

Ryan Leak: it’s not awesome they’re like what’s wrong with you come back to the real world and i’m like you’re right, and I think that is the point of saying hey we’re.

Ryan Leak: we’re going to take a bunch of risk to try some things and and we’re going to we’re going to see see where the where the chips are the chips fall because at the end of the day, it’s all risk.

Ryan Leak: it’s all risky I mean I think some people think oh I don’t wanna I don’t want to take a risk, because what if I fail and it’s like well doing nothing is also risk.

Ryan Leak: yeah it’s.

David Horsager: Much more in that camp, I know it’s good to have people alongside me that you know pause think through stuff, and all this, so we don’t I bought a company one time lost everything in two weeks for our family have just written for my first.

David Horsager: daughter was born and.

David Horsager: You know I learned a lot about what we talked about around here, trust and.

David Horsager: Because I was so quick to trust, people often but there’s there’s all those things.

David Horsager: Create our journey, give us depth and and I would rather be with people that are sure I am I know i’m a little bit that way.

David Horsager: What is it ready fire aim, you know, but I liked him the movement does build momentum does build momentum it’s not always the right answer, certainly, but it’s one of them, I want to talk about a couple takeaways from.

David Horsager: This book and I want to get to what you’re working on next.

David Horsager: Because I don’t really excited about that i’m thinking about that.

David Horsager: And and but but let’s talk about this quick there’s a whole lot of nuggets in the book if you don’t have it chasing failure, it really gives this.

David Horsager: Not just permission, but encouragement exhortation to like you know what you want to be better you’ve got to chase failure first but let’s let’s actually a couple things.

David Horsager: The the idea of motivational speakers saying you know what what is it good never.

Ryan Leak: give up like this never give up.

David Horsager: ish right true statement.

David Horsager: But what about these five questions.

David Horsager: You talked about um.

David Horsager: You know who wants to be a millionaire five questions you need to ask yourself to count the cost of your dream.

David Horsager: yeah tell us about it.

Ryan Leak: So I think it’s important that.

Ryan Leak: You know, whenever it is that whatever it is that we’re trying to accomplish one, we need to know why we’re doing it, I mean some people want to do it just because they either want to be famous they want to be admired by.

Ryan Leak: A certain group of people, or maybe they want to be rich, you know, whatever their reason may be, I think you just need to have a good reason, a good why.

Ryan Leak: And I think when most people think of the word million million is sort of a gold standard for everything, a million downloads million customers a million dollars a million million million million well.

Ryan Leak: When you think about it, it looks great from a distance until you talk to people who have a million followers That means they also have a million opinions.

Ryan Leak: And also means that they they could have a million critics, I mean there’s so much that comes with anybody that achieves anything anything million, you know you look at professional athletes and.

Ryan Leak: There are some of the only people in the world who salaries are plastered all over the Internet and people look at that and try and like put it in their face and go Look how much money you made this year and it’s like.

Ryan Leak: yeah dependent on the state that they live and they might get half that maybe you know, and so you think about.

Ryan Leak: Man it’d be great to make $40 million and being an MBA but you’ve never written a check for 17 million to the irs because that’s what a lot of athletes have to do and so.

Ryan Leak: So the question that I really pose to people in the book is going, are you sure you really want to be a millionaire are you really sure.

Ryan Leak: That you want to be as successful as you think you might want to be, because your relationships change the more success that you have.

Ryan Leak: People feel like you owe them access that your phone number should be given to thousands of people and how do you do that, how do you who do you respond to.

Ryan Leak: You have to build a team that means you get to be a good leader, there are lots of things, on the other side of.

Ryan Leak: of being a millionaire so till we out we outlined some questions that we think are very important for people thinking about their goals you know, one of the one of the biggest questions.

Ryan Leak: Is you know how do How do people that I view a successful whether they’re a millionaire or have a million downloads or a million subscribers whatever it is, how do they spend their time.

Ryan Leak: What what what is what is their schedule in my executive coaching practice I tell people all the time.

Ryan Leak: Your calendar will determine the trajectory of your life, what are you spending your time doing if i’m sitting with the C suite executive i’m going.

Ryan Leak: You might think your job is to put out fires, but if that’s all you do you’ll never move this ship in the direction you actually wanted to go, so you are in control of your schedule, it is not dictated.

Ryan Leak: by everyone else around you or the problems, so we have to build leaders to be able to help solve those problems so you’re you’re not achieve firefighter you’re the CEO.

Ryan Leak: And so, so and I think about the disciplines that are required at that level sometimes it’s the resources that you need to you know the old adage, the first thing I heard about businesses get spend money to make money and most people aren’t willing to do that.

Ryan Leak: They they want things to be easy, they want a successful person to glory without their grind.

Ryan Leak: They want their they want a successful successful persons destination without having to wait in line at all.

Ryan Leak: And so I think behind the scenes of any successful person you hear some stories that you go you never posted that on instagram you never I never saw that to eat, I never saw that story.

Ryan Leak: And so I think, overall, the question that I think all of us should be asking whenever we admire somebody whether it’s on our phone or somebody we actually know, I think we should be asking the question, what does it cost to be you.

Ryan Leak: What what is.

Ryan Leak: What what what don’t people see and and I think that that’s a very, very important question that we should ask.

David Horsager: That jumps in to really maybe we’ll go back and forth you a little bit, but some of the new work that you’re.

David Horsager: Working on and probably inspired with some of your Executive coaching and everything else is self leadership and.

Ryan Leak: Thinking about.

David Horsager: How do you lead yourself, well, I want to ask you, first because I asked us to almost have everybody, because I, at least I have found.

David Horsager: yeah i’m doing well and in others, that I respect that those that are leading others.

David Horsager: yeah both have the opportunity to to be a part of the lives of presidents of countries and companies and and and yet we’re flying a load and i’m thinking about things I did well and things I regret from as my four kids are moving on first one in college this year and thinking through.

David Horsager: How would I do this, how am I going to do these this next season.

David Horsager: Because.

David Horsager: If you’re on a couple hundred flights, a year and you’re doing all the things you do, how are you leading yourself well.

Ryan Leak: yeah you know it is a.

Ryan Leak: it’s attention to manage I like to say, and there are some month I just take off.

Ryan Leak: I don’t do anything.

David Horsager: Is that systemized i’m gonna jump in here a little bit is that.

David Horsager: A system like I always do that or I just like oh I don’t have work so i’ll take this month up, I mean.

David Horsager: How do you.

David Horsager: yeah is that a sabbatical every year for a month is that, how do you do that, I know, Ken blanchard studies that, basically, you know here, he is.

David Horsager: A unit, you know, and I know people that are at that should not be talking to anybody anymore.

David Horsager: they’re saying the same thing they were 40 years ago.

David Horsager: and bringing up people like Ken blanchard who are at and they’re fresh and relevant and capable and wise still and I think part of it goes to every summer.

David Horsager: Basic is up at the lake with his family writing reading thinking and he does that, as part of his life but he’s got this system, every year, what, what do you think.

Ryan Leak: Mines August, as my birthday mom.

Ryan Leak: And my kids are getting ready to go back to school and that’s that’s that’s where I I typically retreat, I know that November in April, are always going to be what I call gauntlet months for me to conferences and.

Ryan Leak: People are always doing you know a lot of conventions and seminars and different things like that so November is even crazier than April, because everyone’s going their last meeting before the holidays so.

Ryan Leak: So I.

David Horsager: salute so let me just ask you, is it like okay hey here’s a quarter million dollars to do this project is that an absolute no in August, if I call you or is that a is that a well now we’ll shift around and maybe do this because we got that.

Ryan Leak: For quarter mil.

Ryan Leak: or quarter mil, we are sending out an extra week off in July, you know my view like there’s there’s.

Ryan Leak: You know, but, but again that’s what people don’t tell you about success, because you think Oh, I would never say no at that level.

Ryan Leak: But you’d be surprised when when you have to, and I think the reason it’s not so systematic is because, as you understand even more than I do, having older kids.

Ryan Leak: Is seasons change and kids are into certain things that you really need to be President, so this past summer my my son was in soccer.

Ryan Leak: But he wasn’t all that into soccer and so you’re measuring like How important is it for me to.

Ryan Leak: To be here, I want to be here i’m gonna do my best to be here.

Ryan Leak: But if that it can’t be here i’m not the I don’t subscribe to the you got to be at every single game every single event, but I do think that you have to be President, you have to be engaged in what’s happening in your kids lives.

Ryan Leak: It would be a shame if you are winning at work and losing at home.

Ryan Leak: And you know I say that.

David Horsager: yeah I absolutely agree with that, I mean, I want to be a hero at home and yet we’re called to these lives of trying to.

David Horsager: You know, in our in our world change trust levels and countries and cultures and worlds, and I do think there’s there’s actually a problem on the other side it’s not an out, but this problem of kids centric culture.

David Horsager: Where the.

David Horsager: Center I if you don’t miss the game you’re you know you’re a bad person or bad dad I think that’s the worst we one of the best parent well.

David Horsager: Actually, the book, there was some frustrating parts of it that I don’t agree with, but this one parenting book, I read, one of the key positive positives was your child is a welcome member of the family.

David Horsager: There are welcome members that they’re not the Center.

David Horsager: Here, and I think we can teach a lot of entitlement and host or things, everything is about them, I do not think I think my kids is that you are present, you are there you’re with me, you are you.

David Horsager: i’m at certain things I want to be at but i’m also texting videoing doing all these things to stay connected or trying.

David Horsager: to fit in perfectly.

David Horsager: I can tell you times i’ve done, I wish I would have done it differently, and all this, but I also am with you that i’m the mark of a great parent I know parents that are there every day they’re not connected to so.

Ryan Leak: 100% and I just I get to meet the adult.

Ryan Leak: That.

Ryan Leak: said.

Ryan Leak: One of two things either i’m successful in my career or I have a great relationship with my parents, because my parents read everything.

David Horsager: Right.

Ryan Leak: I never heard anyone say that but yeah we do have a cultural pressure to be at everything i’m just going, why is not a predictor of.

Ryan Leak: Future better relationship or future success now again complete absence is definitely a future indicator of something not being successful but I don’t think that that’s the that’s the intent and so So for me there’s their seasons, where August is a.

Ryan Leak: You know we’re not doing anything in August again Cohen it’s like hey will you turn on your computer into a virtual event for an hour sure.

Ryan Leak: But why not, but as far as like hey there might be a no travels and i’ll do that a couple of times a year actually where I didn’t know travel for two weeks, three weeks.

Ryan Leak: And you know my son is now starting basketball, which is a whole different ballgame because it’s like hey are you going to coach i’m like.

Ryan Leak: I don’t know this this particular season, I told him hey I i’m not going to coach but I will be there with the whistle on the side and how about what practices and whatnot and he and a friend, are doing it after this winter.

Ryan Leak: And i’ll be able to make you know, most of the Games, but not all of them, and so you know every every season is just a little bit different.

David Horsager: What about this, what about routines that like daily routines for you to stay.

David Horsager: You know.

David Horsager: Some of the work you’re you’re you’re thinking about is self leadership, what do you health wise faith wise family wise, what are you doing every single day are there some routines you have.

Ryan Leak: I tried to take my son to school every single day, and we do a verse of the day I want his mind to be solid and.

Ryan Leak: You know i’d love to say that that’s always been a daily routine.

Ryan Leak: in Texas, he just started kindergarten last year, but in Texas you don’t have to go to kindergarten and because of the back and forth with hey you got to be home for two weeks and we just homeschool them so.

Ryan Leak: You know he’s only been at school now two months, so the routine routine changes and there’s so many different worlds that i’m bouncing in between, I think we long for routine, but one of them from me just as a writer and a speaker i’m reading and writing every single day.

David Horsager: something you do when you do that when you when you’re reading right when’s the when’s your best time.

Ryan Leak: It just it just depends, you know, and I talked about this in my next book is this trying to be this.

Ryan Leak: Well, rounded person and trying to score tend in every area, spiritually vocationally marriage parenting.

Ryan Leak: Health wise eating healthy working out, you know so yesterday I jumped up my son.

Ryan Leak: One of my friends, has a gym and shooting machine and his house and lives, you know 1010 to 15 minutes away and i’m like hey, can I start paying you didn’t just have a gym membership to go here.

Ryan Leak: And so, yesterday I felt like a really great routine and i’m like I think I could do that i’m going to try again tomorrow.

Ryan Leak: But, but then again in November it’s the gauntlet month I just don’t know that i’ll be able to.

Ryan Leak: And I think naturally i’ve always been just like a fit person my metabolism is pretty high as well, and so just being in my peak shape is difficult to do also while traveling and so.

Ryan Leak: I wish I had more of a routine, but I would say, the thing that is a staple in my life is my to do lists so every Sunday night or Monday morning I create a very.

Ryan Leak: Particular to do lists, that is categorized by all the different buckets that my life has from speaking from church to.

Ryan Leak: How many guys on that in a week.

David Horsager: How many how many things.

Ryan Leak: uh I can show it to.

Ryan Leak: 60.

David Horsager: And, and what percentage of wins of the 60 I know you’ve got something in the book about just getting a daily win, but what do you, what do you have for like what’s what’s likely out of those you can all these things you get 30 done.

Ryan Leak: uh So this was this is one from last week I got.

Ryan Leak: yeah I will say, by the end of the week i’m if I have 60 things on there.

Ryan Leak: Probably 55.

Ryan Leak: yeah probably going to defy and i’ll put some things on there, so, for example, at the beginning of October I said, you need to write all of your content for November before October so.

Ryan Leak: The reason I do that, so that in November, while i’m working a lot when I do get home, I can really be home and not really need to think about what I got going next.

Ryan Leak: Does that make sense, so yeah I tried to do some things ahead of time.

Kent Svenson: Hey it’s Kent Svenson, producer of The Trusted Leader Show here.

Kent Svenson: That’s it for this week’s episode. But make sure to tune in to next week’s episode for part 2 of David’s interview with Ryan Leak.

Kent Svenson: In it, Ryan gives us a preview of his 12 questions for self leadership

Kent Svenson: talks about the greatest tool for bringing about change in diversity, equity, and inclusion, and he discusses the importance of those in power giving access and opportunity to those who don’t.

Kent Svenson: You won’t want to miss next week’s powerful episode.

Kent Svenson: But that’s it for now. Thanks so much for being here. And until next time, stay trusted.

Ep. 58: Allison Shapira on How To Use Communication Skills To Build Trust

30 November 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Allison Shapira, Former Opera Singer Turned Entrepreneur, Keynote Speaker, and Public Speaking Expert, to discuss how to use communication skills to build trust.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Allison’s Bio:
Allison Shapira is a former opera singer turned entrepreneur, keynote speaker, and expert in public speaking. She is the Founder/CEO of Global Public Speaking LLC, a communication training firm and certified woman-owned small business that helps people speak clearly, concisely, and confidently – both virtually and in person. She teaches public speaking at the Harvard Kennedy School and has spent nearly 20 years developing leadership communication programs for Fortune 50 companies, government agencies, and non-profit organizations around the world. Allison is a Certified Virtual Presenter and a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP). She holds a master’s degree in public administration from the Harvard Kennedy School and is the author of Speak with Impact: How to Command the Room and Influence Others (HarperCollins Leadership) which was a Washington Post best-seller. She was a finalist for 2017 Woman Business Owner of the Year by the National Association of Women Business Owners, San Diego Chapter. She lives in the Washington, DC area.

Allison’s Links:
Website: https://allisonshapira.com/
“Speak with Impact” by Allison Shapira: https://amzn.to/3r7aMJ9
Global Public Speaking: https://www.globalpublicspeaking.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonshapira/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allisonshapira/?hl=en
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/allisonshapira
Twitter: https://twitter.com/allisonshapira
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/AllisonShapira

Key Quotes:
1. “Good communication at its very core is about building trust with your audience.”
2. “Speak the truth.”
3. “Own your own style.”
4. “In order for us to trust someone we have to feel like we know them.”
5. “The tone of our voice communicates more than the words themselves.”
6. “Make sure that the power of your voice matches the power of your words.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Speak with Impact” by Allison Shapira: https://amzn.to/3r7aMJ9
“True Spirit” by Jessica Watson: https://amzn.to/3nQVYMo
“Applied Improvisation” by Theresa Robbins Dudeck and Caitlin McClure: https://amzn.to/3rbpw9I

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager and I have a special friend and guest with welcome allison shapira how are you.

Allison Shapira: hi David what a treat to be with you.

David Horsager: Oh, it is my treat so we got to dive right in but she is a former opera singer turned entrepreneur author speaker educator she teaches at the Harvard Kennedy.

David Horsager: school and she recently became a real authentic best seller of speak with impact, how to command the room and influence others we’re going to talk about all of that.

David Horsager: Before we do just give us what’s it what are a couple other thoughts I mean I know you speak like you can you can speak in 10 languages and you’re fluent in about four So what are a couple of things we should know about allison.

Allison Shapira: Everything that you said is is is so helpful, thank you, David and I really wouldn’t add anything to that, although I could give you a laundry list of other random facts such as I am a new sailboat racer so that’s something that i’m doing.

Allison Shapira: On the side is crewing on people’s sailboats and Annapolis Maryland so that’s a fun fact that we can share.

David Horsager: Well, you know what my brother was just out of the boat show the big boat show was it last week were you there.

Allison Shapira: There were two there was the sailboat show and the power boat show, I went to both of them.

David Horsager: Okay, she he is a sailboat guy, in fact, I have a guy gave on the team here who sails many, many, many weekends here until the ice freezes in.

David Horsager: in Minnesota but that’s that’s very interesting well there’s a lot a lot there around trust and leadership and working together and everything else so.

David Horsager: Well we’ve become friends and i’m so grateful for it, I think you’re brilliant, I think.

David Horsager: You know so much of what you do is just it’s so it just the way you do it also is engaging and cool and fun and so.

David Horsager: We are hoping i’m telling this out loud to everybody listening we’re hoping to find out by tomorrow if allison is able to be one of our keynote speakers at.

David Horsager: The trusted leader summit April 12 through the 14th we believe she’ll be on the main stage we’re going to find out within 24 hours so.

David Horsager: By the time this drops people will know if she’s on the on the agenda or not, but let’s get going on some of what we’re going to be talking about there.

David Horsager: we’re going to come back to personal leadership in a moment, but I want to just start with this book speak with impact would tell us about you know what can people expect if they haven’t read it, and why did you write it.

Allison Shapira: I wrote the book, because everyone kept asking me what book do I recommend, on teaching public speaking or learning public speaking, and I said well there’s this book there’s that book but there’s no one book.

Allison Shapira: That walks you through the process of writing delivering practicing improving on your public speaking skills so that’s why I set out to write the book and it was less of.

Allison Shapira: less of a book about public speaking and more of a handbook for the busy professional moving up in their career who wants to speak with impact using their voice at work or in their community.

David Horsager: If i’m not mistaken Warren Buffett said, if you want to double your riches if you want to double your your wealth, he said, the one thing you should do not investment advice, not all these other things, he said, the one thing you need to do is learn how to communicate better right.

Allison Shapira: He said, is exactly true that’s right your wealth.

David Horsager: Those that can communicate whether it’s in the boardroom or on the platform so you’re helping people do it, and what I love and, of course, as you know, the way we we think around here around trust.

David Horsager: everything’s about building trust you and I have had a funny fun little banter about something I say from the stage and that how that is you know, I was an undergrad I was a communication major.

David Horsager: So, but, but one of the fun things I say trying to get people’s attention, but I believe it is.

David Horsager: Communication is never a core issue it’s always a trust issue just like I say leadership is never a core issue that.

David Horsager: The reason you follow leader, not as trust the reason you buy from someone or not is is trust, not a sales issue, not an innovation issue, not even a diversity equity inclusion issue, I talked about how it’s actually the core Oh, is a trust issue.

David Horsager: But, on the communication front, I often then we get into the pillars of trust and save see it’s.

David Horsager: it’s clear clear communication is stress it unclear isn’t compassion is trusted hateful isn’t and we go through the they pose of trust, but in the midst of that tell us your perspective.

Allison Shapira: Well, I remember hearing you say that the first time, a number of years ago and I wrote it down, and I even wrote and highlighted quote this, because it really impacted me and I I I believe it’s true and.

Allison Shapira: I don’t like this.

Allison Shapira: Well it’s because it it’s based on on bad communication is not the issue, so I believe good communication at it’s very core is about building trust with your audience and so, if you don’t have the trust.

Allison Shapira: The communication will fall flat, but when you have the trust of your audience and you use your communication skills to to not only establish but to reinforce and continue building that trust, then it can be a very powerful part of the issue, so it really depends on how we view communication.

David Horsager: So we agree, basically, and this is a this has been a fun.

David Horsager: that’s right conversation you’ve got a few ways that you believe you can use communication to build trust.

Allison Shapira: would give us give us a few.

David Horsager: Of those tips right off we love to start right in punchy and I want to, I want to you know suck the marrow of life out of your brilliant brain as fast as we can, this is my.

David Horsager: This is my free consulting that you would normally get 10s of thousands of dollars for right, so no I appreciate you being here.

David Horsager: and sharing with our trusted leader audience, but what.

David Horsager: What are some ways that we can you know use communication to actually you know build trust.

Allison Shapira: And there are three specific ways, I believe, at least three ways i’m sure you and I could come up with many more, and our listeners and viewers can come up with many more, but the first way in which we use communication skills to build trust is by speaking the truth.

Allison Shapira: And I know that sounds obvious like something we should do already, but when we say speak the truth, I mean use your own words when communicating.

Allison Shapira: Not company jargon or or bureaucratic language but use words that resonate with you.

Allison Shapira: And so that then they can resonate with others, so the first, the first step is to speak the truth, the second step is to make sure every part of you is communicating the same thing.

Allison Shapira: So when I speak my words are saying one thing my eyebrows my smile is saying something else, and my tone of voice is also communicating So the idea is if there’s a disconnect between what we say and how we say it.

Allison Shapira: That that lack of clarity and consistency as you talk about in our communication reduces the audience’s trust in us because they don’t know what to believe, and so what I want people to do is recognize every part of them should be communicating the same message.

David Horsager: This before we jumped to number three this gets to something you say that I love and you talk about this and I think you’re right about it in your book, and that is authenticity over perfection.

Allison Shapira: that’s like.

David Horsager: This I mean we trust those that are authentic over perfect, in fact, some people almost seem to perfect I don’t trust them.

Allison Shapira: that’s right that’s right we see somebody on stage and when they’re perfect and we do this with people in all industries, whether it’s politics or business when we see someone and they appear to be perfect.

Allison Shapira: We deep down, know that perfection is impossible, so we start to miss trust that person, we wonder what are they hiding what isn’t going right for them, and so that that second guessing of.

Allison Shapira: That person speaking, is it is, it can be really destructive to our trust in them, so when we’re imperfect now.

Allison Shapira: It doesn’t mean unprepared, we still need to prepare be prepared, and we need to be accurate, but a lot of people, especially in public speaking spend way too much.

Allison Shapira: time trying to create the perfect the perfect meeting opener the perfect question at an event the perfect speech and what they’re what they’re striving for is impossible and.

Allison Shapira: counterproductive, so the authenticity comes out when when we let ourselves make little mistakes in our communication, but recognizing that we’re still being authentic to our message.

David Horsager: This reminds me.

David Horsager: I might have shared this before on this show, but you know, I was it was 20 some years ago is always.

David Horsager: kind of a mentor of mine, he was the head of imagineering at Disney said if you’re going to be speaking, you need to go to the national storytelling festival.

David Horsager: You just need to go, so it was a 19 I think 99 maybe seven or something that I went to the national storytelling festival jonesboro Tennessee.

David Horsager: This tiny little town beautiful quaint little village in Tennessee that Alston expands to 100 200,000 people for this, you know this, four days or five days or whatever they come from around the world.

David Horsager: And you’d have these events with you know few hundred people here 50 people there and then in the evening or at the big tent you’d have you know 2000 people watching.

David Horsager: Some people, you might have to pay extra for the ticket and I remember the first night I was just blown away i’d seen amazing you know storytelling from Africa from you know the appalachian whatever and and I watched this lady.

David Horsager: And she was 90 some years old, and she stood at an old fashioned straight microphone kind of like what I have here, people are watching, but a straight Mike with a cord, you know no hand gestures just standing there telling her story, and if I look at an audience that.

David Horsager: rapt attention, not a movement, not a sound from anybody, they were hanging on every word I wish I wish I could remember the lady’s name, and it was hanging there watching and I in that moment, what is it what is it.

David Horsager: Mostly she’s just plain authentic.

David Horsager: that’s, why does she not this big i’m not saying don’t use um you know gestures or do use them.

David Horsager: i’m not saying use voice they’re not using i’m saying, she was just what it was, for her was just the authenticity people were just hanging on every word.

David Horsager: And so I learned it’s not all this necessarily a toastmaster Armor on it’s not this or that and move around the stage it’s just being her was just so powerful authentically.

Allison Shapira: it’s so true and and that’s what’s so important as people recognize everyone has different communication styles different personality styles.

Allison Shapira: So if you’re introverted it’s not about becoming extroverted so that you can be a powerful speaker or communicator it’s it’s owning your own style and then bringing the best version of yourself on stage into the meeting room into the zoom room, just as you would offstage.

David Horsager: Absolutely, and I can’t be her I can’t do it without moving my hands.

Allison Shapira: I can’t not even know, can I mute mute it moving my hands but that’s part of my communication style, this is authentic to me.

David Horsager: Yes, undeniably let’s jump to number three.

David Horsager: Great way I.

Allison Shapira: was ready to jump in with that third way of using our communication skills to build trust now and it’s two parts it’s it’s about using active verbs.

Allison Shapira: And following our words with actions and that gets back to when you say communication is never the issue, trust is so often, we can speak in a way that either addresses an issue directly.

Allison Shapira: or or or tries to take a lack of responsibility in the way that we communicate so use direct verbs that address an issue head on and then, when you’re done speaking.

Allison Shapira: follow those words with action and that’s what continues to build trust, because if you simply speak and then don’t take action that action is a form of communicating you’re communicating with your feet with your hands and both are critical in the act of leadership.

David Horsager: The only way to rebuild trust we say is to make and keep a commitment it’s not the apology i’m sorry i’m late no you’re not you’re late every time right i’m sorry i’m late i’m sorry i’m sorry.

David Horsager: doesn’t mean we don’t apologize use the words but they have to be followed by action.

David Horsager: Tell me an example on that first half give us a little clarity on using action or active verbs.

David Horsager: Like How would i’ve got a senior leader dealing with a terrible i’ve got a couple consultant calls the day, where we had senior leaders they’ve got their.

David Horsager: Their people are throwing darts at that senior leader for all the things they’re doing wrong, but how would I then go communicate to my team using active verbs and then follow up, can you give me a scenario.

Allison Shapira: i’ll give you an example, so very often you’ll hear a leader communicate and use passive verbs mistakes were made um vs I dropped the ball.

Allison Shapira: I failed my team we failed you so it’s that’s what I mean when I say active.

Allison Shapira: Active verbs active tense, as opposed to passive tense so i’m taking responsibility and and exactly as you said, it’s not i’m not just apologizing i’m taking responsibility, which means things will be different moving forward so that’s what I mean in terms of the message.

David Horsager: So this is great now you’re jumping all over the place here because I have so many questions for you, but you I mean you were a concert cellist right or a.

David Horsager: voice.

Allison Shapira: vocal vocalist.

David Horsager: yeah concert vocalist.

Allison Shapira: Yes, and I had I had I was a cellist but I wasn’t.

David Horsager: I feel like you’re you’ve got all these capabilities, but I know.

David Horsager: You know you have that level of preparation, there you are a prepared tell me a little bit about preparing now for let’s say whether you’re teaching at Harvard or you’re speaking to a an executive team or doing a keynote, how do you prepare.

Allison Shapira: I always ask three questions before I craft a presentation, or even prepare for this podcast or prepare for my class at the Kennedy school and I, and I teach.

Allison Shapira: The people we work with to ask these three questions as well, they seem very simple very simple but they’re actually quite complex and those questions are who’s your audience what’s your goal and why you and by why you I don’t mean, why are you qualified, I mean, why do you care.

Allison Shapira: Because we asked these three questions the audience, we asked about so that we understand what will resonate with them, where are they where do we need to get them to go.

Allison Shapira: So how do we connect with them on their level using language that will inspire or connect with them.

Allison Shapira: what’s our goal means, what do I want to happen as a result of what i’m about to say what outcome, do I want to see, and then why you why do you care means Why am I inspired by this topic, or why am I simply proud.

Allison Shapira: Of this work, because then the language that you choose is authentic and as a result is more powerful so nobody answers why you with to increase shareholder value.

Allison Shapira: The answer, why you with because when I was a child, I saw my parents get taken advantage of by their financial advisor and now.

Allison Shapira: As a financial advisor my goal is to make sure nobody has the experience that I had growing up.

Allison Shapira: So it’s it’s getting them to tap into that authentic connection.

Allison Shapira: To the message and then that authenticity, as you know, brings out, it makes it more more readily possible for someone to trust them because, in order for us to trust someone, we have to feel like we know them and that why you brings out a way that others can relate to you.

David Horsager: I think if people ask these three questions, we would not just have less boring presentations we’d actually have.

David Horsager: Much more importantly relevant presentations relevant to us what if we made it about the audience were serving What if we made it about the goal taking them from here.

David Horsager: If people would instead of just presenting thinking i’ve got to do this presentation if they valuable, what is the goal we actually have a chance, because we have a target right, I think a lot of people.

Allison Shapira: it’s true it’s true and and it goes even deeper than a presentation, because so many people will work with will say.

Allison Shapira: Well, I I give presentations from time to time, but every day i’m running meetings i’m meeting clients i’m running small group meetings, one on one meetings.

Allison Shapira: And those three questions I actually recommend you ask yourself before every meeting or in the negative two minutes that you have in between zoom or webex calls.

Allison Shapira: pause and breathe ask these three questions and then they help you refocus and reset so that when you log into that call you bring your best most strategic mindset to that call, which I think is invaluable from a leadership perspective.

David Horsager: let’s go let’s get to you, I want to follow up later on in a couple moments here with the book a little bit more, but before we get there, we go back there allison shapira you’re an advisor to many are speaking on these stages, you know, like trusted leader summit and even bigger.

David Horsager: But what you know how do you what we’ve at least found is people that are great leaders with.

David Horsager: Those they’re educating it, you know Kennedy Harvard.

David Horsager: or senior leaders that you advise or companies you advisor they’re leading themselves somehow.

David Horsager: Personally, how are you leading yourself what do you have daily routines do you have whether it’s physical spiritual social relational, let us inside a little bit, what do you, what do you do it.

Allison Shapira: I do have several routines and and this process became even more important during the pandemic when so many of the things that we normally do.

Allison Shapira: Who are for sustenance such as spending time with family and friends or traveling to new destinations.

Allison Shapira: Was was taken away, and so I asked myself what do I need to do to provide for my own happiness and inspiration that’s within my power.

Allison Shapira: And, and what i’ve started doing is first and foremost meditation starting my day with 20 minutes for me of transcendental meditation.

Allison Shapira: But anytime I can simply sit in silence and an either turn off my thoughts or let my thoughts run and and be creative about the day that I want to see or about the person, I want to be that quiet time for contemplation is critical.

Allison Shapira: I also need to have some sort of physical exercise whether it’s tennis or running or paddleboard I my my good mood comes from me exercising and so that has to be a daily part.

David Horsager: i’ve never.

David Horsager: seen you in a good mood.

Allison Shapira: we’re.

Allison Shapira: All have our bad days we just.

David Horsager: don’t you must exercise every time I said.

David Horsager: So tell me so what’s your, how do you schedule that, by the way, hey you’re busy you got to teach this class you gotta go meet with that executive you gotta you know how do you schedule in your physical exercise.

Allison Shapira: I woke up at 520 this morning, so that I could make a six o’clock outdoor boot camp and I went to bed at 10.

Allison Shapira: or a little later than 10 but I intended to go to bed at 10 to make that happen, but the idea is.

Allison Shapira: I prioritize it and I wind things down the evening before so that I make sure I do it, and again it’s, not just because I know it’s good for me it’s because I have a physical and chemical reaction.

Allison Shapira: to exercise and the lack there of that for me is is necessary in order to be the best version of myself so i’m lucky in that way that i’m i’m pulled to do this, whereas I know a lot of people just have to force themselves to do it.

David Horsager: almost everybody i’ve ever met that i’ve asked this as far as exercise they either don’t exercise and they don’t know they would have this reaction, or they exercise and they all say I couldn’t do without it.

David Horsager: Like it’s part of my mood is perfect so it’s like if you start exercising this this happens, like it affects the mood it affects your overall health that is affects leadership, quality and all kinds of things.

Allison Shapira: Oh, it does it makes me a better leader of my team because i’m more patient i’m more energetic i’m more optimistic so every it’s in everyone’s best interest to make sure I get my sleep I exercise and I get fresh air those are those are non negotiable for me.

David Horsager: sleep exercise and fresh air that’s it all right anything else on the routine list that we should be thinking about.

Allison Shapira: I also.

Allison Shapira: I also make lists every day in terms of what I want to achieve, and so I make sure that i’m.

Allison Shapira: i’m on track with those lists and i’m also very, very focused with my time so i’m sure you know, when when people know that you.

Allison Shapira: You have your own business, they assume that means you can do Friday brunch or just take Monday off and spend a longer weekend with family and and.

Allison Shapira: And it’s actually the opposite, because we run our own businesses we’re going to work more than the nine to five because we see the direct impact of our work.

Allison Shapira: On our businesses and on others, so that sense of discipline and focus, I actually think of them as my as my superpowers, that the ability to focus on what I need to do to move the business forward.

David Horsager: yeah be an entrepreneur you don’t you don’t have to work camp time right just with 12 hours you work.

Allison Shapira: So insulted if someone asks me for a weekday casual meeting i’m like.

Allison Shapira: don’t don’t you think i’m i’m successful, how do you think I can afford to do that.

David Horsager: What about you know, on this entrepreneurial journey that you, you jumped onto what’s what are what were some of the barriers are things you wish, you would have known you know 20 years ago tipping points.

Allison Shapira: I wish it’s so interesting because there are a number of things that i’m learning that i’ve learned.

Allison Shapira: That i’m glad I didn’t know when I started out, for instance, how long it takes to to to get those first paying clients in the very, very beginning, or how long it will take.

Allison Shapira: To to grow your company, to a certain level that you anticipated it it works, it just works on its own timeline but what I do wish I had known starting out.

Allison Shapira: Is is how important it is to constantly be meeting people and and building those relationships.

Allison Shapira: Because in our industry, it can be, it can be a two to five year sales cycle from when we meet someone to when they actually have the need and the budget.

Allison Shapira: For our help and i’ll meet people at an event.

Allison Shapira: Maybe I don’t think they have the budget, maybe I think they’re too junior in their career and then five years later they’ve moved into a new role and and now they get to make recommendations to somebody else so which I wish I had realized early on.

Allison Shapira: How how incredibly important it is to build that network and it’s, not just for entrepreneurs it’s for anyone looking to to bring people together into in terms of working towards a shared goal it’s a constant process.

David Horsager: you’re constantly speaking of constant processes you’re constantly learning you put a lot of output, whether it’s in the classes or everything else, what do you, what do you learn in these days, or what are you curious about.

Allison Shapira: It so funny you mentioned that because I just took a trip to Chicago for a workshop and I came up with two new modules on the plane flying home from Chicago.

Allison Shapira: And, and it was because I had put some questions out on linkedin because i’m getting ready to do linkedin live and I thought, what are people’s.

Allison Shapira: Questions what issues do they have and nearly everyone responded by saying, I want to learn how to be more concise in my communications everyone responded very few people.

Allison Shapira: Overcoming nerves, which is what I thought they would choose it’s all about brevity, and so I thought.

Allison Shapira: I know a lot about brevity there’s also a lot out there, so I started.

Allison Shapira: combing through books that I had and and researching and looking at different different research papers and then on the plane, I came up with a module on the power of brevity.

Allison Shapira: So i’m constantly thinking about what do people need and what are new ways in which I can help their existing needs.

Allison Shapira: Or what ways can I help them in going forward in new ways and that that commitment to learning is actually really exciting that gives me energy, just like just like boot camp does.

David Horsager: Well, you can see why some brevity is important today in this fast paced noisy culture.

David Horsager: How do we.

David Horsager: get that message across the clear the better right and brevity is often a way there I what I like about this to you know we think about learning.

David Horsager: At least three things come to mind for me quickly travel expands the mind reading expands the mind and the people i’m around this I really love Socratic method I love.

David Horsager: Talking.

David Horsager: With smart people like you think well, what do you think about this, what does this work, you know that that discussion based and that can happen in a mastermind or an accountability group or whatever.

David Horsager: Those three things, but I think it’s interesting this idea popped in your head what you said first is not just i’m learning about brevity, but.

David Horsager: I was on a trip to Chicago like I got out of my comfort zone, and you, you kind of thought of this new idea, while you were away, you know, in a way um.

Allison Shapira: Yes, and and what what’s also, I would add a fourth component to what you’re saying that speaks to why it happened.

Allison Shapira: On a flight to Chicago it happened in a place where all the other distractions were turned off, so no notifications it’s usually the time in which we have to put our clothes our devices, but we can’t open our laptop yet, and so the fourth way that I would add, is silence.

Allison Shapira: Where we turn off we stopped moving.

Allison Shapira: We stopped listening to music we stop exercising whatever it is, and we simply sit and and let our mind go and for me and I forgot this during the the 18 plus months of not traveling I forgot how incredibly creative and productive I am on planes.

Allison Shapira: And it’s because i’m so focused and I can let my mind go.

David Horsager: I love it wow anything you’re reading right now on the you like oh I got a great book right now, or something i’m really love to read and that’s inspiring me.

Allison Shapira: I have a couple of books, I have a book about a 16 year old young woman who sailed around the world by herself.

Allison Shapira: that’s like my parents were very upset when they saw me pick up that book I said don’t worry i’m not doing it, but i’m reading about it.

Allison Shapira: And then i’m on a business side i’ve i’m reading a book on applied improvisation techniques beyond theater.

Allison Shapira: And I, as I mentioned i’m always looking for fun new ways for people to learn.

Allison Shapira: Core critical skills and I believe improv is an incredible way to do that I use a lot of improv already, but what i’m doing is i’m reading these business case studies, about how improv helped companies achieve business results and so.

Allison Shapira: They have all these exercises and i’m updating my curriculum plugging these exercises in as i’m reading the book so again it’s so exciting to plug in new ways of learning.

David Horsager: what’s your, what do you know, the title of it.

Allison Shapira: Is downstairs I can get you.

David Horsager: Know that’s commonly.

David Horsager: Like i’m reading stuff I don’t remember the title either all the time, but I think this is interesting, what I love and you love is applied research, like we love.

David Horsager: The stuff.

David Horsager: We don’t like just some motivational everybody yell yeah we like that the research but, but only we love to apply it to our like, how can this actually make an impact tomorrow morning in someone’s life or in the team, or in the outcomes.

David Horsager: So I like that you know, for me, when people ask you know how did you get better at speaking on the on the way to whatever you’ve you’ve done and and that kind of thing and and I just I think.

David Horsager: It doesn’t just happen, does it it’s like you’re working i’ve had coaches I paid a whole lot i’ve had.

David Horsager: Two things that came to mind from what you said, I took a stand up comedy class never wanted to be a stand up comedian likes you know eight week course twice a week we had to go do stand up boy, you want to.

David Horsager: You want to have critique happen go to a live comedy club, you know and and with people you know.

David Horsager: Who are newbie rated and have their arms crossed saying make me laugh, you know that’s that is tough environment, you can do that and, and if you can keep middle schoolers attention you know.

Allison Shapira: You finally done something right.

David Horsager: But the other course I took was improv and I just think of how that I don’t even know how that plays itself out now in a boardroom or in an executive session, but it does it does it makes me better, and so I think these are you know just great ideas for becoming better.

Allison Shapira: I know exactly how it helps because it helps you think on your feet.

Allison Shapira: Which means you’re more able to come up with creative solutions and handle any question that’s thrown your way and, in my experience when people are overly nervous before.

Allison Shapira: A speech or presentation it’s because they’re nervous about what’s going to happen when they’re unprepared for a question.

Allison Shapira: And so, knowing that they have the improv techniques to get creative and handle any questions thrown their way makes them more confident, which makes them more effective in the actual in that board meeting.

David Horsager: we’re back to communication I love this tell us a couple more tips from the book everybody needs to go get the book i’ve got to.

David Horsager: speak with impact, how to command the room and influence others, give us a couple more tips, as we start to land the plane.

Allison Shapira: Some of the tips, and this is one of my favorite topics that I address because of my background as an opera singer and even now as a continuously performing singer songwriter as well, is how do you harness the power of your breathing.

Allison Shapira: When you communicate and and there are two main benefits to that the way in which we breathe.

Allison Shapira: Can both calm our nerves and project our voice and I talked earlier about the tone of our voice communicates I would say.

Allison Shapira: The tone of our voice communicates more than the words themselves and so when we study breathing techniques, then we learn how to let our most powerful voice out and let it.

Allison Shapira: command the room or command across the camera lens and into someone’s living room or bedroom and so that’s that’s a topic I go into in depth in the book addressing both.

Allison Shapira: How do you use breathing to calm your nerves and self regulate and then, how do you use breathing to project your voice and make sure that the power of your voice matches the power of your words.

David Horsager: what’s one thing left for allison Shapiro, what do you hope for what’s the biggest hope for the future, maybe even the next few years, if you want to do your whole life, but what what’s it kind of hope ahead for you.

Allison Shapira: The more I so appreciate that question, the more I think about what I do the more I realized that it’s not simply about.

Allison Shapira: Public speaking and it’s not even about leadership communication, which is how I broadly address this topic.

Allison Shapira: it’s really about connection it’s about human connection and the more I travel and i’ve led workshops and given keynotes.

Allison Shapira: All over the world in in all different regions and the more I do that the more I realized how fundamentally similar we are we all are.

Allison Shapira: We all get nervous before a speech or presentation and it’s I it’s crazy i’ll meet someone who is.

Allison Shapira: From a country i’ve never been to speaking the language that I don’t speak and when they hear what I do they say oh my God i’m so nervous about public speaking.

Allison Shapira: I don’t want to look foolish in front of my peers and and it doesn’t matter where you’re from it’s human and I wish.

Allison Shapira: Everyone could see how similar we are and see that powerful connection that we have in our capable of tapping into, and if we did I know the world would be a better place in every single way.

Allison Shapira: My goal is that I can broaden that message from leadership communication to the power of human connection and come up with the actionable takeaways for that.

David Horsager: I love it that’s what’s next for allison Shapiro I love it.

David Horsager: Well let’s a reminder here everybody can get the show notes and we’re going to have a picture and everything about the book speak with impact at trusted leader show.com you can see, you can even hold it up there, see that I love it speak with impact.

David Horsager: Right it’s our favorite colors with some red and white, we love that we’re on brand with trust so stick with impact we’re going to put.

David Horsager: links to that in the show notes, I would love it also, if you would email us so before this show drops.

David Horsager: The applied improv techniques that sounds fun and aligning and, if you want to share the other book about the lady that is sailing around the world that’d be fun too, but we will will definitely highlight yours, we hope.

David Horsager: To get to have you at the summit coming up have I done enough like inkling about that if.

Allison Shapira: You have and and you’ve made people so interested that regardless they’re going to go to the website just.

Allison Shapira: i’m speaking there or not, because you’ve built it up so much.

Allison Shapira: I think that was brilliant.

David Horsager: brilliant so that’s that’s trusted leaders summit.com you’ll see thousands there when this show drops and then trusted leader show.com.

David Horsager: will be where I get all the show notes books and connections on all of that, where else can we find out about you allison we want to, we want to know you and people listening today.

David Horsager: are saying I need help with my communication I need to present this speak at that i’m a chair of the board, and I know I haven’t done a great job at this, I need some coaching and a CEO.

David Horsager: Or, I want to come in your class at Harvard Kennedy school but you’re you’re a where can people find out more about you.

Allison Shapira: So I would first encourage people to connect with me personally on linkedin because that’s where i’m the most active i’m constantly posting articles.

Allison Shapira: and thoughts and tips on communication skills and so that’s a way for us to have a dialogue.

Allison Shapira: and communicate then i’d recommend that people visit the website of my company global public speaking, which is global public speaking.com.

Allison Shapira: And you can you can find out, not just about me, but also about our team of trainers and coaches, who work all around the world, with some of the biggest companies in the world.

Allison Shapira: And if you sign up there on that homepage we’ve just released a new workbook called everyday public speaking, which gives you some tips for how you can practice and improve your speaking skills every single day in meetings and presentations.

David Horsager: love it what a gift Thank you so much well last question here we are.

David Horsager: it’s the trusted leader show allison, who is a leader you trust and why.

Allison Shapira: There’s a particular woman in Finance, who I really admire her name is katie Knox and she was voted one of the top women in finance just this year and i’ve had the pleasure of working with with her and her team for years.

Allison Shapira: And what I love about her is that when she is on stage communicating.

Allison Shapira: me is the same person on stage as she is offstage and she lives, the values that she communicates so she’s she’s not just about the words she’s also about the action and she does it with a confidence.

Allison Shapira: and authenticity that I know are inspiring to her team and and and are inspiring to me personally.

David Horsager: I love it, we need to share this katie knocks all right, what you just made me think we have seven virtues at trusted leadership institute that’s our inside values, not our values out going out and one of them is be the same on stage and off.

David Horsager: And everybody has a stage for me up our new it might be a literal stage for someone else it might be on the phone, it might be meeting someone in person, I might meet via zoom.

David Horsager: But I love that allison, thank you for sharing your wisdom, today I know there’s a whole lot more in there, but thanks for what you’ve shared today and the way all of us can keep connected with you, I hope to see you soon, for now, that is, the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 57: Len Herstein on The Advantages Of Strategic Unpredictability

23 November 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Len Herstein, Business and Brand Marketing Expert, Speaker, and Author, to discuss the advantages of strategic unpredictability.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Len’s Bio:
Len Herstein has over 30 years of experience in business and brand marketing. Prior to founding his marketing and events company (ManageCamp Inc.), Len innovated, managed, and grew brands for major consumer packaged goods marketers, including Coca-Cola, The Campbell Soup Company, and Nabisco. Since 2015, Len has served as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff in Douglas County, Colorado. In his book, Be Vigilant!, Len combines all his experiences to provide a detailed roadmap for individuals and organizations to stop complacency, improve performance, and safeguard the success they’ve worked so hard to achieve.

Len’s Links:
Website: https://lenherstein.com/
“Be Vigilant!” by Len Herstein: https://amzn.to/32jmG8d
Brand Manage Camp: https://brandmanagecamp.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenherstein/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lenherstein
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/len.herstein/

Key Quotes:
1. “Complacency kills.”
2. “Success is not the end goal, keeping it is.”
3. “The more success we enjoy, the more likely we are to become vulnerable to complacency.”
4. “Vigilance is the awareness of potential threats.”
5. “The worst time to figure out what you’re going to do in a crisis is when you’re in the crisis.”
6. “The best type of disruption is self-disruption.”
7. “When you’re engaged you’re paying attention.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Be Vigilant!” by Len Herstein: https://amzn.to/32jmG8d
Brand Manage Camp: https://brandmanagecamp.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

david_horsager: Welcome to the Trusted Leader Show. it’s David Horsager, I’m back with

david_horsager: another amazing talent. He’s a marketing and branding expert. He’s worked

david_horsager: with brands like Coca Cola and Campbell Soup Company and Nabisco He’s the

david_horsager: CEO of Brand Manage Camp, and the founder even invited me to speak there

david_horsager: with some other Uh experts. It was a just a fantastic event. You can learn

david_horsager: more about that at Lenhurst Dot Com. We’re going to give you other ways to

david_horsager: reach out to him, but I just want to welcome you to the show. He’s also a

david_horsager: reserve sheriff. How cool is that? So welcome to the show Len Herstein.

len_herstein: Thanks. They. good to see you, man. Good to see you.

david_horsager: It’s great to see you again. I’ll tell you what we’re going to get into it.

david_horsager: I want to talk about your book that you author. Uh, be vigilant before we

david_horsager: do. just give us a uh. you know a sixty seconds onn. who is ▁lynnhrsten?

len_herstein: Yeah, So who isst man? I’m trying to figure out Myge. you know I, I’ve gone

len_herstein: through several ititerations. I started out in consulting, and then I moved

len_herstein: into consumer package, Good brand marketing with the companies that you talked

len_herstein: about from there. I’ gone to a lot of conferences and and couldn’t find the

len_herstein: one I wanted to go to, So I created my own that’ Whereed Braence

len_herstein: just did our nineteenth annual this yearrtually. Um, in two fifteen, I was

len_herstein: looking for a way to uh, give back to the community. I became a reserve

len_herstein: sheriff’s deputy, and then this past year, Um, I kind of combined all my

len_herstein: experiences into this. This vigilant is

len_herstein: sixty secondswese. go big.

david_horsager: yeah, we’re excited here about Bevinton. He’s also a double Cornell grad,

david_horsager: which, uh, We got some family. Uh, that is big on Cornell out here’. got

david_horsager: nephews and um, uh, yeah, cousins y all that, Uh. Cornell University. So

david_horsager: it’s the uh, You know we’re we’re farm people. So it’s kind of the Agg Ivy

david_horsager: League campus. right, so uh, we’re we’re um. kind of mixes it. So

len_herstein: They. they’ve changed the names a bit. But when I was when I was younger and I

len_herstein: actually went to college, I went to the College of Agriculture and Life

len_herstein: Science is a Cornell. So

david_horsager: yeah, great. all right.

david_horsager: let’s let’s jump in here and let’s start with the The book. Be vigilant. I’m

david_horsager: going to jump in here, but give us like wh. Why? why did you write it? And

david_horsager: then I’ got some key questions that I think will be relevant to everybody

len_herstein: Yeah, absolutely so. like I like I mentioned, I, I spent. you know, I, I,

len_herstein: thirty plus years in business and marketing and and brand management. Um, and

len_herstein: then in the last seven years I’ve been doing this, Uh, this law enforcement

len_herstein: thing, I went into thinking that it was going to be completely different than

len_herstein: anything I’ve ever done before. But what I found is that right away there were

len_herstein: things that I was applying back to business in life, and one of the key things

len_herstein: was this concept that complacency kills, And it’s something we spent a lot of

len_herstein: time on in law. enforcement. Um and I started thinking you know what

len_herstein: complacency kills businesses, It kills brands and kills organizations. It

len_herstein: kills personal relationships. Um, and so I started

len_herstein: becoming obsessed about understanding what complacency was and how it

len_herstein: manifests itself and what brings it on, and what, And and started seeing the

len_herstein: things that we do every day in law enforcement to help us fight complacency.

len_herstein: And then the book is about taking that and applying that back to how we can

len_herstein: use that in business in a life.

david_horsager: so we’re going to talk a little bit about it. Everybody’s going to want to

david_horsager: get the book to be vigilant, but I, I want to just ask you know, these days

david_horsager: there’s a lot of people burnt out. They’re burnt out in law enforcement.

david_horsager: they’ burnt out in health care. they’re burnt out in, you know, after the

david_horsager: pandemic, all these kind of things they don’t want to hear about getting

david_horsager: them off there, you know, getting mov, and more, and you know whatever, but

david_horsager: they are even becoming complacent in the midst of this. What what do we say

david_horsager: to them there with empathy? How do we? How do we motivate vigilance now?

len_herstein: Yeah, well, I mean, here’s the thing. What what I tell people is that success

len_herstein: is not the end goal. Keeping it is right, it’s not. It’s not enough to get to

len_herstein: the top of the hill. You have to stay there. You got to figure out a way to

len_herstein: stay there. And what? And And the irony is that the more success we enjoy, the

len_herstein: more likely we are to become vulnerable to complacency. Because we become

len_herstein: overconfident, we become a little self satisfied, and we become comfortable.

len_herstein: And those are all the things that build that right environment for complacency

len_herstein: to grow. So you know, the the message here is not about paranoia, is not about

len_herstein: hyper vigilance. You know what I mean. A lot of times people will think well.

len_herstein: The opposite of complacency is paranoia. Um, but it’s not because here’s the

len_herstein: deal. paranoia is based in fear. paranoia is the fear of potential dangers of

len_herstein: the fear of potential threats. What I preach is vigilance, and vigilance is

len_herstein: the awareness of potential threats. Right. So this is a book about how to

len_herstein: remain aware, right how to build the processes in, so you don’t have to be

len_herstein: thinking about it all the time, so that you are naturally aware that you make

len_herstein: put yourself in the best position to not be caught by surprise, and to be

len_herstein: ahead of the curve. The worst time to figure out what you’re going to do in a

len_herstein: crisis is when you’re in the crisis,

david_horsager: So let’s let’s

len_herstein: So let’s let’s look. One that really hit mepric

david_horsager: lookcause. One of the things that really hit me was get off the ▁x. The

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability This sounds kind of

david_horsager: crazy like. what do you mean? the

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability Tell us about this.

len_herstein: Do you meandpric

len_herstein: Yeah, So getting off the ▁x, I mean where it comes from and what we talk about

len_herstein: in law enforcement is this thing called the Udalup o o d a, which stands for

len_herstein: observe Orient de side and act, And this was something that the military came

len_herstein: up with to describe how fighter pilots make decisions And so you observe you

david_horsager: Say this again. I’ve learned this, but I need to hear it one more time.

len_herstein: more. Yeah, so it’s the udaluop, like Guda cheese,

len_herstein: but uda right, but is spelled o o d a

len_herstein: for observe. Orient, decide and act

len_herstein: right. And

len_herstein: here’s the thing. it is a. It is. it is not just a linear process. it’s a

len_herstein: looping process. Right And so

len_herstein: the the game is to get to the action as fast as you can by doing all the

len_herstein: steps. the way the human mind works and way organizations work. Is that if you

len_herstein: disrupt one of those elements,

len_herstein: you you’re forced to go back to the beginning? Right? if you’re observing and

len_herstein: orienting and you’re in the decision phase and then some of your inputs

len_herstein: change. You’ve got to go back and it slows you down the way I, You know. Are

len_herstein: you a football fan?

len_herstein: Okay? so a football fan? so say someone? Uh, say there’s a punt return right

len_herstein: and the punt returner is running straight down the field And you’re a defender

len_herstein: now, And you don’t have to be a mathematical genius to figure out where that

len_herstein: person’s running and how fast, and a what angle you need to run to intercept

len_herstein: them right. But

len_herstein: if all of a sudden they start juking and turning and twisting and spinning,

len_herstein: that’s when you see defenders fall on their butts right. Because what’s

len_herstein: happening is they’ve observed they oriented. They decided they acted and then

len_herstein: everything changed right.

len_herstein: and then they had to re observe, reorient and it messes everything up.

david_horsager: So how do we lets? let’s get. Let’s take this to practical. How do I do

david_horsager: Let’s say in the pandemic, Let’s say in some change, But the truth is you

david_horsager: and I both know there’s a massive change ahead. black chain cryptocurrency.

david_horsager: pro, another pandemic, Maybe in the next decade, You know, we got to get

david_horsager: better at this. We got to get better at in our world, building trust in the

david_horsager: midst of change, But also just be just dealing with this. I like this simple

david_horsager: process. I’ve actually read about this and it just reminded me about it, But

david_horsager: how would I orient Like? Okay, I can see observing. Okay, this is happening.

david_horsager: That’s happening. but how do I orient? decide and take action.

len_herstein: well, so there there’ there’s two. There’s two things Right. One is how do you

len_herstein: get through your process faster? Right

len_herstein: and that’s what you’re talking about. The other thing is how do you slow down

len_herstein: your competition right? And so the strategic unpredictability comes into play

len_herstein: on that second part, which is by remaining strategically unpredictable so that

len_herstein: people can’t pinpoint where you’re going to be or what you’re going to do. You

len_herstein: make slow down our decision process. Now you can speed up your own decision

len_herstein: process through Um, scenario, planning right through. So through this is what

len_herstein: we do a lot in law enforcement. We think about what if what if what? If so

len_herstein: that when the thing actually happens, we don’t have to actually go through the

len_herstein: process of figuring out what we’re going to do. We can move much quicker to

len_herstein: action because it’s

len_herstein: already muscle memory. It’s already brain memory Right. And so that’s what we

len_herstein: need to do in the organization is figure out how are we going to react if this

len_herstein: happens, Because if if we’re sitting back and we’re waiting to observe in an

len_herstein: orient theciing act, we’re going to be slow right. But if we’ve already

len_herstein: prethought if this happens, this is what we’re going to do, and this is how

len_herstein: we’re going to do it. we can move there much quicker,

len_herstein: right So so there’s two pieces to the Udal loop game. Number one is speeding

len_herstein: up your own decision process, right, and number two is slowing your

len_herstein: competitors or your potential competitors By not being so predictable Doesn’t

len_herstein: mean being Willi nearly unpredictable, so that your customer or your

len_herstein: constituent or whoever it is that you’re serving can’t ever figure out what

len_herstein: you’re about or what you’re doing. That’s not what this is about, but it’s

len_herstein: about remaining strategically unpredictable to your competition and to your to

len_herstein: your. Uh. you know competitive set

david_horsager: What what would that look like? Can you give us one example that of a brand

david_horsager: or a company

david_horsager: or someone that’s done that well?

len_herstein: done well strategic.

david_horsager: They’ve been strategically in, predict, because you know, in trust, we talk

david_horsager: a lot about being consistent. I want to know what I going to get every time

len_herstein: A lot about beings want to every know. It be the same every time in many wayss

david_horsager: I know what. It’s going to be the same every time in many ways, But is there

david_horsager: an example so we can get kind of our heads around it?

len_herstein: around it. Yeah, so I mean,

len_herstein: I’ll give you. I’ll give a quick example of someone who’s whos remains

len_herstein: strategically unpredictable, Right and then someone who who hasn’t. So if we

len_herstein: have time, if not, think about Netflix, right,

len_herstein: So everybody wants to talk about Netflix in terms of Netflix and Blockbuster,

len_herstein: right, that’s that’s common. That’s the common

len_herstein: knowledge. right Blckbuster. drop the ballmb, Netflix came in and and redesign

len_herstein: and and took over this industry of video rental. But what people don’t realize

len_herstein: is that what Netflix has done ever since is one of the things I talk about in

len_herstein: strategic unpredictability is self disruption, right, So

len_herstein: the best type of disruption is self disruption, disrupting yourself before

len_herstein: somebody else does. It helps you remain unpredictable, and this is what

len_herstein: Netflix keeps doing right. So Netflix took the video rental business and

len_herstein: changed it. Then they move to streaming. Then they move to uh, their own

len_herstein: content and original content. And now

len_herstein: they just announce that they’re actually getting into gaming and doing games

len_herstein: within their platform

len_herstein: to keep people more engaged right every time every step along the way

len_herstein: May maybe gaming’s not going to work for them right. But what it does is it

len_herstein: keeps everybody else guessing and it keeps everybody else playing catch up,

len_herstein: which slows them down and make sure they’re not the ones doing this. The

len_herstein: disruption. So to me, Netflix would be a

len_herstein: great example of that

david_horsager: good example. What was it quick? What was the other example of someone who

len_herstein: good example. What was it quick? What with the other example of someone who

david_horsager: hasn’t done it and they fell off

len_herstein: hasn’t done it and they fell off. Uh, like everybody in retail. Okay, so so

len_herstein: let you

david_horsager: well and

len_herstein: what. What do itps?

david_horsager: you could go back to your blockbusters like the opposite, Right Kodak, or

david_horsager: you know anybody,

len_herstein: but you know here’s

len_herstein: here’s a great example. I. I. I like Edde bower clothes. Uh, I’m

len_herstein: a. I’m a pretty simple guy right so

len_herstein: Eddie Bower’s pretty pretty easy for me, But you know several years ago Eddie

len_herstein: Bower trained me and everybody else in the world not to buy anything from them

len_herstein: unless it was at least fifty percent off. Right, I get emails from them

len_herstein: literally every day, ranging from thirty percent to forty percent. I don’t

len_herstein: even look at them until they get to fifty percent, knowing that there is a

len_herstein: sixty percent coming. Right, they are squarely on that ▁x. and they will, And

len_herstein: and I just, I just don’t need to buy for them. Not only do I know that those

len_herstein: sales are coming, All their competitors know they’re coming too, And when

len_herstein: they’re coming, and what rates they’re coming, and so they have become very

len_herstein: very stuck on an acts as a lot of people in retail. do

david_horsager: let’s get personal. Gilance be your whole. You know you have this whole

david_horsager: part. One of the chapters is on the

david_horsager: autonomy, fighting complacency through the power of empowerment. But maybe

david_horsager: you can speak to that, but also just how do we fight complacency at work,

david_horsager: but also in our marriage, in our relationships and our friendships. Ive been

david_horsager: married my wife for a quarter century. Now, Uh, four

david_horsager: kids to to show for it and an amazing marriage. But how do we you know fight

len_herstein: Yes, okay, so two separate questions there. I’ll take the first one first. So

len_herstein: autonomy in the workplace, we’re seeing this right now. everybody’s talking

len_herstein: about this. The great resignation, right, as

len_herstein: if it’s a covet thing. this is not a covid thing, right.

len_herstein: The great resignation is not a covid thing. This thing has been brewing

len_herstein: for a while, and covid, maybe accelerated it, or brought it to a head, but the

len_herstein: reality is that for a long time employers had a lot of power right. And what

len_herstein: do they do with that power? They abused it right. And so one of the things I

len_herstein: talk about in the book is this this need to be able to articulate the y. It’s

len_herstein: something we talk a lot of in law enforcement about. Why are we doing every

len_herstein: single thing we’re doing right? And it relates to understanding Uh, what your

len_herstein: purpose is right. What is the goal? What is the overall purpose of this

len_herstein: organization of this team of this project of whatever level you want to define

len_herstein: it, and making sure that you can articulate the y

len_herstein: when the Y is because we can, or because we said so those are not good wise.

len_herstein: Those are wise that work in the short term, but come back to haunt you in the

len_herstein: long run, And so one of the things that employers need to do is they need to

len_herstein: make sure that they have defined this purpose that everybody can get behind

len_herstein: and that everybody can understand and articulate uh what they’re doing, But

len_herstein: what they also need to do is they need to give their employees autonomy and

len_herstein: discretion right. They need to give people the ability to feel like they have

len_herstein: power over their work product Right, Because when people feel like they’re

len_herstein: being treated like a machine like a robot that can only deliver specific

len_herstein: things, that is all they are going to deliver. You know, the example

len_herstein: I use. Uh, you know is ▁zappos. Right, and you know everybody W, you know may

len_herstein: have heard the story of you know the ▁zappo’s customer service agent who took

len_herstein: a call, Uh, and and you know Tony, uh shee was was there and she didn’t know

len_herstein: who it was, but they were ordering a pizza, not ordering shoes, not ordering

len_herstein: anything that ▁zappo’s actually sold. Um, and she took the time to help them

len_herstein: find a place that would deliver a pizza at the time of night that they were

len_herstein: looking for, because she understood that she had the autonomy to do whatever

len_herstein: she needed to do to make a potential customer happy, and she had the time to

len_herstein: do it right. And she also understood the purpose of the organization and what

len_herstein: that was all about. So when you give people that autonomy that what that

len_herstein: relates to and studies will show this, and you know this is released to

len_herstein: engagement, right and the more engaged people become in their work product.

len_herstein: Not only do they become better Ees, but they also become less in complacent,

len_herstein: Because when you’re engaged you’re paying attention, right, And that’s what we

len_herstein: want people to do to not become complacent. We don’t want them to ignore. You

len_herstein: know, when we’re talking about leaders up here, we rely on the people on the

len_herstein: ground doing the work to let us know to send the signals up when something’s

len_herstein: wrong, right? I just, I’m not going to name names, but I just had an issue

len_herstein: this this week with our bank. Uh, the bank that we use for our business, and

len_herstein: without letting us know without doing anything, because they needed one piece

len_herstein: of information, they actually froze our accounts for without even letting us

len_herstein: know, And a vendor had to let us know that our account was frozen. And when

len_herstein: we, when we were research that we found out well what had happen Is you know,

len_herstein: Our banker without telling us, had left the company. Nobody had taken their

len_herstein: spot. No communication happened and and all of a sudden it got to this point

len_herstein: where they just froze our account. Now we went in and we filled out this one

len_herstein: piece of paper and everything was fine, But the reality is are the people that

len_herstein: we dealt with at the branch or whatever level? Are they going to pass that

len_herstein: word up? Are they

len_herstein: going to let people know right what’s going on? Do they feel like they have

len_herstein: that autonomy and that engagement level to be able to communicate upwards?

len_herstein: Because without that, not only do they become complacent, but the organization

david_horsager: you talk a little bit about. I like this. You talk a little bit about good

len_herstein: you talk a little about? I like, talk about good habits in the in the in. The

david_horsager: habits in the in the in the uh book. Tell us, I want to get personal here

len_herstein: uh book, Tell us I want to get personal. Here tells what are the good habits

david_horsager: and tell us what are some good habits you have whether it’s for business or

len_herstein: you have, whether it’s for business or for life. Family?

david_horsager: for health? life? Family,

len_herstein: Yeah, so I mean you know this and this. This gets into the their second

len_herstein: question, which was about. You know, you

len_herstein: know your personal relationships, too, but you know. Um, you know, I talk in a

len_herstein: book about the purpose of a habit is to remove thought from a situation where

len_herstein: thought actually works to your detriment. right. So the easiest example is

len_herstein: every day when I walk in the house, I placed my keys on a hook inside the

len_herstein: door. Right. I always know where my keys are. It is a habit that I do every

len_herstein: time. No matter what I don’t think about, whether am i coming in or am I going

len_herstein: to stay for a while. Do I need to hang up on my keys? Do I not need to hang

len_herstein: every single time I hang up my keys, Because if I don’t I get in, You know

len_herstein: this is probably not great for my relationship, But my wife doesn’t do that

len_herstein: and my wife loses herur keys. Right and you can’t find Themem and we’re We’re

len_herstein: stuck going around the house looking for them because each time is different

len_herstein: right So you got to think about what in your life can benefit from not

len_herstein: thinking about it. So another example that I use from law enforcement is when

len_herstein: I’m in uniform when I’m working a shift. I do not shake hands with people. I

len_herstein: do not offer my handers. There’s a lot of reasons for that. It’s not a. It’s

len_herstein: not a germafold thing. It’s because I don’t want to give up control of but

len_herstein: piece of my body to somebody that I don’t under Know what’s going on. I could

len_herstein: get in a bad situation. Now

len_herstein: you might say well, everybody’s not a threat. True. In fact, the vast majority

len_herstein: of people are not threats, but the downside if I make a mistake and give my

len_herstein: hand to someone who is a threat is so great that it’s better for me to have

len_herstein: the habit of never doing it all, Because that way I don’t have to think about

len_herstein: it right, ’cause what’s

len_herstein: going to happen is if I have to think about it, I’m goingnna make a choice

len_herstein: based on how’s this person dressed? What do they look like? Um, how angry do

len_herstein: they look? Have I met them before? What a situation? am I in? There’s a lot of

len_herstein: variables right and I can make a mistake during any one of those. So this is.

len_herstein: this is where we get into things like you know in business what I tell you

len_herstein: know. In in marketing, I tell people to you know, always do creative briefs

len_herstein: when you’re doing when you’re doing uh products That you want somebody to

len_herstein: deliver something for you and somebody like Well, We don’t need to do a Craer

len_herstein: brief for to this one because it’s not that big right and then you end up

len_herstein: wasting a ton of time on it. So it’s one of those things where it’s a habit

len_herstein: that you can get into that benefits you all the time. And if you don’t do it,

len_herstein: the downside is pretty big. Right,

david_horsager: pretty big.

len_herstein: if if if the mistakes happen, think about that in in your life with your kids

len_herstein: or your family, what are the things that you should be doing every day,

len_herstein: whether you think ing them. you love them. right. Um, you know, doing certain

len_herstein: things that should just be a habit that shouldn’t have to require. thought.

david_horsager: good word.

david_horsager: Well, there’s a whole lot more and a whole lot more in the book, and I like

david_horsager: actually somell of the stuff on briefs and deriefing by the way, but let’s

david_horsager: jump to one last. I just give a a quick overview of your kind of vigilance

david_horsager: Av model and I could read it, but let’s just let you say it.

len_herstein: yeah. So Av model in in the book is is accountability plus transparency equals

len_herstein: vigilance, And this is something that that you know. We’ve learned this lesson

len_herstein: less in law enforcement right, but this applies to leadership in in a

len_herstein: tremendous way, because the more that we are

len_herstein: hiding things, whether by on purpose or just by nature right, the less

len_herstein: transparent we are andles, we hold ourselves accountable. the less trustworthy

len_herstein: we are right. And what happens is if we don’t think ahead about being

len_herstein: specifically accountable and holding ourselves accountable and publicly

len_herstein: proclaiming what we’re going to do, andeically about how we’ going to be

len_herstein: transparent and provide a view behind the curtain all the way through. It is

len_herstein: very easy when we experience success when we have power to ignore that stuff.

david_horsager: Mhm, Mhm,

len_herstein: Right be can right.

david_horsager: How do you define account of, Believe you know, I go to a lot of

david_horsager: organizations. They have accountailities of value, and I’ll say well, how do

david_horsager: you help people Cowel here? and like you know, accountability stuff they

david_horsager: don’t know. So we know healthy vulnerability or transparency. Bullds trust.

david_horsager: ninety percent of leaders would be. Bor would trust a leader more. if

david_horsager: they’re more transparent about their mistakes. We have a little six that

david_horsager: process for building accountability, But I’m really curious. How do you kind of

david_horsager: define accountability and what’s healthy accountability Look like, how do

david_horsager: you create it?

len_herstein: Yeah, yeah, so for me, accountability in the context that we’re talking about

len_herstein: is account

len_herstein: with that with. when E, you know whatever group you’re working with in with,

len_herstein: whether it’s a team or an organization or to your broader constituents outside

len_herstein: it is publicly holding yourself accountable. I, I tell you know, I’ll I’ll The

len_herstein: the example I’ll use in personal life is going on a diet. Right, if you decide

len_herstein: that you’re going to go on a diet or you know some sort of weight loss routine

len_herstein: and you don’t tell anybody and you just do it yourself, It’s real easy to get

len_herstein: off the mark right when you publicly tell people. when you publicly tell uh,

len_herstein: you know your family, it becomes a little bit harder to get off, but it’s

len_herstein: still pretty easy, right. But when you public tell everybody if you go out

len_herstein: there on Facebook and say here’s what I’m going to do, Here’s my starting

len_herstein: picture in three months, I’m going to post my my ending picture Right, and

len_herstein: whatever whatever I’m going to do, Now you’re publicly accountable, Right and

len_herstein: when you’re publicly accountable, it forces you to be aware. It forces you to

len_herstein: be conscious of what you’re doing, right,

len_herstein: Um, for the right reasons, and also for the reasons that that. It’s kind of

len_herstein: you you’ve put yourself out there, and so for me accountability, especially

len_herstein: within organizations has to be effective. Has to be public. You have to be

len_herstein: drawing a line in the sand. something that people can judge you against

david_horsager: well, the book

david_horsager: is be vigilant by Len Herstein, and uh,

david_horsager: tell me this.

len_herstein: tell me what?

david_horsager: What do you? What are curious about? What do you think I know?

len_herstein: what you?

david_horsager: You’re a learner. I know you. You’re thinking about lot things, whether from

david_horsager: law enforcement or marketing and branding still have your feet in both

david_horsager: worlds. What what are you

david_horsager: curious about learning about these days?

len_herstein: Well, I mean, I’m I’m always curious about learning about how can we create

len_herstein: better relationships between. Um, you know, companies and their constituents

len_herstein: in my world. I’m I spend a lot of time because I. I’m really passionate about

len_herstein: law enforcement. Now is understanding how can we make a better relationship

len_herstein: between the community and law enforcement, And that’s why I

len_herstein: got into it, and that’s why I do this for F. I mean people think I’m nuts. I

david_horsager: Hm. Mhm,

len_herstein: go out and I patrol and I and I do all the things. Uh, but I do it for free.

len_herstein: but I do it because. Um, I got tired of being someone who is just sitting

len_herstein: there having arguments on the sidelines, and and opining away. I

len_herstein: wanted to be part of the solution and so that’s something I’m super passionate

len_herstein: about right now and I’m always learning. always learning more about how do we

len_herstein: bridge those gaps And how do we better serve

david_horsager: Well, I’m going to ask you the final question very soon, but before we get

david_horsager: there, you still run and uh brand manage camp you still, and your this

david_horsager: volunteer sheriff deputy,

david_horsager: give us the where they can find out about Len. They can find you on Lenked

david_horsager: in, but your main webite

david_horsager: Ist, and you can find all that and the show notes. Trusted Leader show dot

len_herstein: Lenherstein dot com, ▁l e, n h, e r s t, e i n dot com. You can get all

len_herstein: information about the book Um, be vigilant strategies to stop complacency and

len_herstein: improve performance and safeguard success. Available on Amazon Bars and oble

len_herstein: everywhere, Um, and then uh, you know, if you have more interest in the

len_herstein: conference, you can do also go to Brand manage Camp Dot com.

david_horsager: com Le. It has been a treat to have your aunt great to see you again. It’s

david_horsager: been a couple

len_herstein: Me too.

david_horsager: years now.

david_horsager: It’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why

len_herstein: Oh man, there’s uh. there’s so many. Um,

len_herstein: you know, I think

len_herstein: I mean the ones that are closest to me right now are are people that I work

len_herstein: with every day. But if I, if I want to think about someone who I have a lot of

len_herstein: trust in who who has been influential on? Uh, you know, especially me writing

len_herstein: my book and all those things I don’t know. Do you know Mitch Joel at all?

david_horsager: I know who he is, but I do not know him well,

len_herstein: Yeah, so he?

david_horsager: but I know you. Yeah, well from Canada, right.

len_herstein: Yeah, exactly Montreal, Uh,

david_horsager: Yep, totally don’t. Yeah. yup.

len_herstein: yeah, So Mitch,

len_herstein: Mitch is one of these guys where

david_horsager: he’s a good guy.

len_herstein: really good guy. And

david_horsager: Y. Yep,

len_herstein: you know is one of these people who, Um, when he says he’s going to do

len_herstein: something, he does it

len_herstein: and he does it without wanting anything in return, right

len_herstein: he is. C, is he’s what I would call a selfless leader, but he’. but he, you

len_herstein: know, he’s in a position where he’s not necessarily leading people in terms of

len_herstein: people that work for him. But I think he leads by example in an

len_herstein: industry. Um that needs it. And so, uh, you know, he’s someone that I

len_herstein: definitely have a lot of trust in Um, not only as a human being, but as a

len_herstein: leader. And and it’s someone who I aspire to be like,

david_horsager: Love it, Len. Thanks for connecting with our audience and sharing your wisdom.

david_horsager: wisdom. This has been the Trust the Leader show until next time if they

david_horsager: This has been trust the leader show until next time they trusted.

Ep. 56: Ty Jernstedt on How To Drive Effective Culture Change

16 November 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Ty Jernstedt, Consultant, Coach, and Facilitator, to discuss how to drive effective culture change.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Ty’s Bio:
Ty is passionate to maximize the potential of individuals, teams and organizations through coaching, consulting, designing and facilitating experiences. His focus areas include leadership and team development, culture change, ID&E, emotional intelligence, trust building, employee experience and identifying an organization’s values and purpose. Ty is originally from Chicago and has worked for over twenty five years across the U.S., Asia and Europe for companies such as Nike, Converse, Mizuno and Zalando.

Ty’s Links:
Website: https://remix.coach/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ty-jernstedt-remix-coach/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RemixCoaching
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TyJernstedt

Key Quotes:
1. “Be open and curious.”
2. “We all experience our culture in different ways.”
3. “Create bridges of understanding.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
Fast Company: https://www.fastcompany.com/
Business Insider: https://www.businessinsider.com/
Young In Prison: https://www.younginprison.org/

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager. I’ve got a friend, he is all the way over an Amsterdam today welcome Ty Jernstedt.

Ty Jernstedt: david it’s good to see you.

David Horsager: yeah thanks for being here so Ty’s served as global director of diversity inclusion for Nike he is.

David Horsager: been a consultant his own his own organization his some of his brands go from everything from the people he’s worked with from Nike the mcdonald’s Coca Cola and Disney he is born in the USA Duke Grad right.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s right.

David Horsager: Blue devil.

Ty Jernstedt: is pretty soon football here with the challenge this year for us.

Ty Jernstedt: For basketball.

David Horsager: yeah you’ll be watching from there.

Ty Jernstedt: Yes, obviously always.

David Horsager: When I can, and then MBA in Japan, I miss this kind of fun English Japanese French, Dutch, you can speak all kinds of languages he’s been a trusted certified coach but he is just.

David Horsager: I when I met ty the first time I could just see this gentleman that cares about change cares about people all people cares about experience and in spirit, the experience in organizations.

David Horsager: And the really the employees, so they can serve others as well, so I think just super super grateful to have you here tie.

Ty Jernstedt: No thanks for having me.

David Horsager: give me your take out that’s a quick little background, but let’s just give us a little take on your journey and then i’m so excited to dive in.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so my journey professionally has gone i’m kind of all over the place crisscross boom right back into new areas so first worked for about 10 years international marketing and communications and PR promotions marketing retail brand marketing and so forth, and then realized.

Ty Jernstedt: When I was in my eyeballs with dealing with Hello kitty and the Disney properties and McDonald that character is making a happy meal toys for the Asian markets when I was working in Hong Kong.

Ty Jernstedt: realized this was great work i’m bringing joy to kids and probably doing some other things to them as well.

Ty Jernstedt: Maybe time to find a new career path that was more in line with my my purpose and my values and, as I got into that work and move back to the US.

Ty Jernstedt: I got into coaching so became a certified coach doing a lot of work in.

Ty Jernstedt: Life coaching so I wanted to step away from the corporate world for a bit and then moved into more leadership coaching thing is a leadership development.

Ty Jernstedt: And that’s where I joined Nike our European headquarters here outside of angst ridden.

Ty Jernstedt: From that world with into the global role for dni and did that for about six years and then have the opportunity to move to Berlin to work for a company called cilento.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s europe’s largest online fashion platform and with them worked in areas of culture engagements I picked started their dni strategy work wish you guys had started quite gets.

Ty Jernstedt: Like groups around leadership development people developments and then back down from about three years ago.

Ty Jernstedt: Three half years ago to work in a similar areas of how do we, you know unlock the potential organizations with their talent and their culture and their employee experience through coaching advising designing and facilitating.

David Horsager: love it, you know I love taking the you know thinking about how we take the complex and make it simple, and you know you’ve got such a cultural background from.

David Horsager: You know, Japan, even we’re going to talk about later some of the work you’ve done in in South Africa, what would you say to just someone who isn’t overly competent culturally.

David Horsager: How what what are some tips, like you, they could take away like how do I step into that new culture i’ve got to go.

David Horsager: i’m going to live somewhere else i’m just going to go be somewhere else for a week I sadly in a time I was in Japan, I did 54 events in 27 days.

David Horsager: But but.

David Horsager: What I remember, was we were with another American group, and one of the saddest things I saw and didn’t even want to be aligned with them because of how.

David Horsager: Just really I don’t think was intentional, but in unbelievably.

David Horsager: Careless they were with the the culture that we were invited to be a part of.

David Horsager: What do you think.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so some of the main things i’ve.

Ty Jernstedt: You know learned through studying and just having be thrown into it myself is one just be open and curious and keep remembering that you know the way.

Ty Jernstedt: You had your worldview, you know coming from the US and us being American is not the same other places they value things differently, they approach things differently, they communicate things differently.

Ty Jernstedt: And it’s very easy to say well we’ve got a better we got the American way it’s we’re number one everyone else is secondary.

Ty Jernstedt: Today, really watching all the other countries in their cultures have many other aspects that are way above my perspective, way better than what we have in the US.

Ty Jernstedt: So if you can be open be mindful be respectful be curious get into it don’t stay in those expats ghettos, as we call them in other places where you just stick to your kind.

Ty Jernstedt: If you want to hang with Americans, you know I could turn that back in the US, I don’t want to be living in these other countries and just have Americans, I want to have people from the home country have lived.

Ty Jernstedt: Other places that just gives those dynamics and the freshness of different perspectives and different ways of doing things and living life.

David Horsager: What do you, you know you’ve talked a lot through the years and a lot of your work has been really you could say whether it’s coaching.

David Horsager: You know dni work di any whether it’s you know some of the employee engagement work you’ve done in the past, some of the leadership development certainly it’s been about change.

David Horsager: Changing trying to help people change, what do you how do you help unlock that challenge of talent, how do you how do you help start helping others change.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah, so I think what i’ve learned from my various roles and different companies and so forth, is really exactly one approach or one path you can take.

Ty Jernstedt: So, from my work in you know talent development and leadership development there are definitely things that happened that way of you know, enabling people building up the skills shifting those behaviors.

Ty Jernstedt: To help them become more confident and competent to be that leader that’s going to coach their people and inspire them, you know drive their business or tribal what they’re doing within the organization.

Ty Jernstedt: But if you just came from that perspective I think it, yes, it will create some change but also if you don’t shift the culture.

Ty Jernstedt: As well it’s gonna be hard to really create that unlock for the people you know across the organization across the functions across the leadership levels.

Ty Jernstedt: So maybe one example in the company, I used to work with we do found out that we knew that leaders and employees weren’t getting much feedback to each other.

Ty Jernstedt: So they said well hey let’s just do some trainings workshops all over the place to kind of upscale our people to be able to give feedback more and receive it.

Ty Jernstedt: And I said yes that’s important and there’s some cultural aspects, we need to be looking at as well, and this woman else we’re not focusing on that.

Ty Jernstedt: Where the talent development team we’re going to do that, but I kept saying I would encourage you, but if that’s what you want this your projects go for it and.

Ty Jernstedt: So they put together a great program ups fields include managers and employees and the workshops all over the place and we after while we’re like well we’re not really seeing much of a difference.

Ty Jernstedt: And the difference from also do more research was Yes, they became more confident to do it and more competent to do it, but they weren’t willing to do it.

Ty Jernstedt: Because i’m going to separate your world David there wasn’t the trust within the groups, there was some fear.

Ty Jernstedt: Of if I were to give some feedback How would it rock the boat in terms of our partnership and relationship what it impacts my ability to get another role someplace else.

Ty Jernstedt: To be effective in these roles and projects so because we, as a company did not look at it from the talent lens which we did.

Ty Jernstedt: But didn’t look at the culture lens of how do we unlock the culture people to then exhibit these skills and behaviors we are looking for.

Ty Jernstedt: We were not as successful as it could be so it’s really coming from that culture perspective as well as that talent perspective as much as possible.

Ty Jernstedt: To create those inter dependent it into functional approach and strategies execution is really you unlock that potential and drive that change to be exciting to see.

David Horsager: So let’s simplify that, because this is really important, I love this because all the organizations so many you know we work with they’re like, how do we change our culture, how do I add a.

David Horsager: CEO of one of the biggest healthcare organizations in North America, we got to change your culture we’re dying, you know it’s like what do we do.

David Horsager: So in our world, we do think of I agree with so much of this we kind of put seven components together to say if we don’t have buy in from the top, if we don’t have.

David Horsager: You know if we don’t teach some common language which is kind of that upscaled part because when we get educated, we do act differently it’s like.

David Horsager: When I learned what was inside of a hot dog I stopped eating so many right so it’s like when I learned something it can change behavior but that, on its own, if we don’t break build trust or so, so I guess from your perspective, maybe what you saw done well.

David Horsager: In your experience could be Nike could be wherever but.

David Horsager: But what How would I let’s just go right to the beginning let’s just take an organization let’s say it’s a few just a few thousand people it’s not Coca Cola Nike but how am I going to take, how could we start to change a culture that maybe isn’t poisonous but it’s not high performing.

David Horsager: It would be if you were going to put it into steps Okay, first, I might do this, then I might do this, then I might do this, what would you kind of not to now, you can see, the American side coming out here, I.

David Horsager: don’t even get it yet you’re still.

David Horsager: i’m actually am full self aware of what i’m pushing you toward.

David Horsager: yeah so you can push back on that, but if I have some framework, even if that as well, but this, but then I I get feedback here or I do this, but I do that you know, is there some framing we could hang.

David Horsager: What we know we need more time more buy in and all these things on to build trust that might have you know might create culture change any any way we can get it not over formulaic but understanding.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so I guess I can always go back with this vortex my coaching background, which is basically Where are you now.

Ty Jernstedt: A bit of why you there where do you want to get to hire you to get there and then get there, so i’ve taken that approach and working with with groups.

Ty Jernstedt: Definitely my time back in Nike with our various offices across Europe.

Ty Jernstedt: Is hey What was it in the Culture currently like what are we standing for as an organization, what are the behaviors and norms and mindsets that are helping you all to be successful in this office or within dysfunction.

Ty Jernstedt: What are the barriers let’s get clear on that.

Ty Jernstedt: what’s the vision that we want to be heading towards and what is it going to take for us to get there, what are the core things we want to focus on because there could be a lot of things we could do.

Ty Jernstedt: let’s just do a couple things super well to create that shift and then move forward.

Ty Jernstedt: And the power of the work that I saw you know with my time at Nike was we didn’t just have that talk within HR or just within the leadership team, it was we got a group of young employees to also be this work, so they wouldn’t first work with.

Ty Jernstedt: doing some their own homework and their networking and focus groups effect and surveys that there are able our employees feeling at what those behaviors and norms that they were happy about not so happy and I was.

Ty Jernstedt: engaged with leadership with the employee perspective here for leaders, because we all experienced our culture in different ways, based on where we said the organization what function, we sit in.

Ty Jernstedt: So get here all the perspectives and then from that must work together to create that roadmap and let’s all keep ourselves accountable for leading this work so having to give the platform for.

Ty Jernstedt: Employees to step into their own literal to lead some of these initiatives drive as we as leaders supports and guidance that sometimes.

Ty Jernstedt: But that we create so much change faster when we engage the employees and said, we want to hear from you.

Ty Jernstedt: We expect to hear from you, and with that we expect you to get off your butts and be a part of this change journey and not just be sitting waiting and receiving the change.

Ty Jernstedt: And when we could inspire the employees to get involved encourage leaders to listen more to employees and partner and collaborate.

Ty Jernstedt: In creating those bridges between the little bubbles the bridges between the functions We broke down the silos lot more Evan was wanting to get more involved.

Ty Jernstedt: To create the change so they could see the traction that they’re making and they were celebrating those knowledge visions of what we have changed to kind of keep them going through the next step and that next step.

Ty Jernstedt: So it’s basically going to be open with really where your ads.

Ty Jernstedt: there’s a lot of talk of you probably want to be let’s get down to brass tacks what is really happening, what does behaviors what can we focus on and really a market and engage everyone in this.

Ty Jernstedt: journey together to do that in us an HR or whatever you call HR your organization.

Ty Jernstedt: can enable that journey and give the toolkits and talking points and the workshops to help and see it’s, but we need you know and leaders they get on board themselves.

Ty Jernstedt: We employees do this as many more of them than there are of us that are sitting in HR to do this work and we don’t own culture in HR leaders employees to be all over the culture ourselves.

David Horsager: I love it, this is it go back to where are we, where are we here, where do you want to get to.

David Horsager: Now here’s what i’m hearing people say, because this is i’ve seen this a massive example in actually a pretty challenging environment is what.

David Horsager: United health group actually created a major culture change they had thousands at the end of a culture ambassadors it’s not done now, but that buy in but I guess people are saying.

David Horsager: Like I can just hear people listening saying okay great ty how do I get the buy in.

David Horsager: How do I get the buy in from the senior leaders, how do I get the buy in and engagement what these even your young younger TEAM members that were part of this initiative they’re like.

David Horsager: i’m super busy i’m on my own work i’m doing all this stuff i’ve got this to do with it now you’re going to add that or.

David Horsager: tie but that’s not making better shoes that’s a.

David Horsager: I gotta focus on this I gotta focus on quarterly earnings I got market share issues So how do I get how did you kind of I you even use the word that I love with this, but it’s I can inspire.

David Horsager: Buying from both senior leaders and those frontline folks I think the frontline might have been easier because they see the.

David Horsager: problem they see how it affects the bottom line and efficiency and everything but.

David Horsager: What do you, what do you do to get that buy in when you’re going in the first time with a new initiative like no this matters.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah it’s a great question, so I was very fortunate that I had a very senior leader.

Ty Jernstedt: who wanted to first office that we work this game, he understood the value of inclusion and he understood the value of having diverse perspectives and it’s not you know, based on gender and race, it was just basically.

Ty Jernstedt: function 10 your leadership level, there are other dimensions that he knew we need to be looking at and engage in this work.

Ty Jernstedt: And just needed some help to figure out how do we do this, so I definitely did have to influence them very much to do this.

Ty Jernstedt: And then, when it took off there was little is influencing to do kids every other.

Ty Jernstedt: offices heard about it and the VP of the region said Okay, you did you know, with everyone else did amazing work in an office you need to replicate that everywhere else, where I go.

Ty Jernstedt: So that part was super easy it was open door come in play with us get this get this going for the employees.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah it was yes we’re adding to your plate, you are not really in this world of change management culture change, they were in finance sales operations.

Ty Jernstedt: Marketing and so forth, so it’s one is like a it’s an opportunity to learn something different to you can step into a leadership role three get more visibility to leaders in for you can practice.

Ty Jernstedt: Some of these basic leadership skills that you’re going to need, once you get into more of that more mid level manager senior manager role.

Ty Jernstedt: And hey i’m here to coach you through experience i’m here to you know streamline your process, but I know hey that office is doing something similar go connect with that group.

Ty Jernstedt: Who does something similar to learn in speech rockets and he also had appreciating that yes, this is not your full time job it is part time if that’s it’s adding to someone’s understanding that yes, there is a pace of the change, they can create as a group.

Ty Jernstedt: But i’ll say hey it’s your it’s your journey your fit your puzzle your failures are your failures your success is your success.

Ty Jernstedt: So if you want to fail and have that reputation that’s also one you know so that was also a little kick in the butt to you know say Oh, he asked me to get back on this.

Ty Jernstedt: let’s go out there and initiate these things and drive these projects and keep hearing from employees engage them in it as well.

David Horsager: What are those four again that use it for buying for these for the for kind of you know, regular mid level managers have visibility, you had for kind of things.

To get.

Ty Jernstedt: Visibility it’s opportunities to be and i’ll be a role which you maybe can’t be in your functional role.

Ty Jernstedt: I didn’t say this but someone said it’s also gives you more enterprise knowledge So you see things beyond your function you learn what’s happening other functions, you know how this business works as a whole.

Ty Jernstedt: which you wouldn’t get that visibility to had you not been part of these you know these groups that we are creating.

Ty Jernstedt: And also didn’t say it, but i’ll say here also in influence so I learned how to influence senior leadership and get them to buy into what you’re selling.

Ty Jernstedt: Not you know what typically happens is the other way around their leaders are trying to sell the strategy, the programs to junior people yeah this give them a chance to tell leaders and the you know toe to toe at the same table.

Ty Jernstedt: You know i’m not buying what you’re selling i’m going to tell you I want you think it’s not going to work because i’m on the floor.

Ty Jernstedt: we’re, the ones who are doing things we know what’s really happening, we see more how the teams are engaging we’re going to tell you again.

Ty Jernstedt: From your perspective, you have your perspective, we have our perspective is your chance to have an open forum to have that voice and start developing your own voice with credibility.

Ty Jernstedt: and vision and your own passion to create the change, you want to create it.

David Horsager: How did you how’d you keep it going, because I think you know people go in with these change efforts and like this is flavor the month that’s going to stop how did you.

David Horsager: You know, set the framework so that it would continue to be celebrated I think.

David Horsager: there’s some you know we do some very intentional things a big pharmaceutical company there they celebrate every year that the trust edge the pillar awards so they’re all these people are getting nominated and they do this.

David Horsager: They have these you know there’s an onboarding part of you know, trust edge so that everybody gets the.

David Horsager: common language right away.

David Horsager: it’s hard to get those things going in you know 100,000 person organizations always but once they are part of the framework they’re part of the.

David Horsager: Part of the culture, they there’s a way of it, lasting united health group was interesting because you know that chief culture officer.

David Horsager: And then they had a big celebration every year that this big you know, thousands of people came together and they know 60 countries and.

David Horsager: And they had because they had the culture ambassadors that’s what they became thousands of them were culture and best That was their extra you could say all those.

David Horsager: Mid level folks they got kind of indoctrinated and trust and all these other things, and how to share that but, but that is not there’s a lot of places that want to do that.

David Horsager: The don’t do it at you know where they stop howdy howdy anything that you’d say little tips on keeping, how do you keep it going.

Ty Jernstedt: So something has tips I learned and the journey of you know.

Ty Jernstedt: coaching these at one point, we had 15 groups across Europe is one myself saying to them hey guys teams you’re doing great work keep it going.

Ty Jernstedt: take some time to celebrate yourselves and what you’ve accomplished also setting you know reminders to leaders if i’ve not heard them doing this work, as well as a executive team leadership team, what are you doing to acknowledge this group.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s the leading the charge, how are you managing everyone in the office who also is taking some part in creating this change and keep this part of your.

Ty Jernstedt: All hands meetings so it’s not just the numbers, the business the brand messages, is also a team we’re doing some amazing work I see it, we all see it appreciate that.

Ty Jernstedt: And then we’re institutionally from an HR process perspective at Nike we had.

Ty Jernstedt: they’re called coaching for excellence documents, which is where we would put in our objectives and goals for the year.

Ty Jernstedt: it’s making sure that you know they get that into this document, because they are doing the work they need to be acknowledged for recognized it.

Ty Jernstedt: They need to have their manager give them feedback on what they’ve seen on this project that they’re working on.

Ty Jernstedt: So that helped to institutionalize also some that happening throughout the year, which is beyond my control.

Ty Jernstedt: To they’ll say hey managers, you also have the responsibility to acknowledge the work that you’re your person is doing it because of the doing extra work than their peers, maybe aren’t doing so that’s Those are all ways to kind of get this group going.

Ty Jernstedt: Through sharing information and inspiration institutionalizing the recognition throughout the year.

Ty Jernstedt: Celebrating at the end to inspire other groups to want to kind of join that the round two round three of these groups, I think, helped us to do it and it all came from also very authentic place it wasn’t a tick box activity.

Ty Jernstedt: We use our kind of the Nike brand voice to really be authentic in sharing this recognition and appreciation for the work.

Ty Jernstedt: That this group did you by themselves, but also every employee who took part in some shape and form to drive the change, they all were wanting to create.

Ty Jernstedt: Just help them feel like yes it’s worth it’s because, if I have a culture that’s more inspiring more innovative more collaborative more trusting.

Ty Jernstedt: This is a much, much more fun place to work for the wise, you know 10 days ago, two months ago, when we didn’t have these elements that we knew were lacking, but no one wanted to step up to fill the void and create that cultural nudge that was needed to have happen.

David Horsager: Why don’t I get a little personal but before I do I want to ask one more question I really appreciate this, this is, this is the work of great companies that are working on culture.

David Horsager: There you know that this the work ahead of time to hear listen to voices and set the framework of where you want to go and how you will keep it going consistently.

David Horsager: and celebrate that and move forward, but you said a word that I find many people.

David Horsager: You know, have a hard time with or have a hard time actually doing, they say it, but it’s not so easy to do and that is the word accountability.

David Horsager: How did you, you said at one point, you said you keep keep each other accountable or keep accountability how what’s healthy accountability look like there, how did you keep each other accountable.

Ty Jernstedt: So one thing really clear who was doing what’s by when and a little bit where we could the level we were expecting it to look like to be delivered by the time we discussed.

Ty Jernstedt: So just getting very simple very clear and I guess, also because you know we also knew this was everyone’s not full time job it had to be really focused.

Ty Jernstedt: And really clear of who was doing what and when it was unclear amongst the team, it was saying okay.

Ty Jernstedt: we’re sensing that the roles responsibilities aren’t super clear let’s go back to who is leading What initiative, who was supporting what initiative.

Ty Jernstedt: Who else can you engaged beyond this group to also be part of this, you have a plan of attack a timeline.

Ty Jernstedt: agree to it, you know let’s get involved in its share with your leadership team, so they can also help keep you accountable, you can help them maintain accountable for things that they need to look around.

Ty Jernstedt: So just being yeah basically just being really clear very specific with the what’s the when the lie in a bit of the how and keep checking into pay how retracting are we on track, or we.

Ty Jernstedt: have scheduled on schedule behind schedule, if so let’s go into deep dive root cause of what’s happening seven figure out what needs to be done to keep getting us more on track and doing more things that we can deliver.

David Horsager: Great.

David Horsager: Well, this is the work of culture change that can make a huge huge impact and it’s been fun to see your journey.

David Horsager: let’s get personal for a second what you know we find great leaders tend to be leading themselves well in some way.

David Horsager: We can get vulnerable about things we’re not doing well, certainly, but I think you know you have a big influence on a lot of people in your practice now.

David Horsager: In the work you’re doing around the world, what are you doing personally to lead yourself well, maybe, whether it’s health or physically or spiritually or socially.

Ty Jernstedt: So I was saying, when I met my best wishes, not obviously every day, unfortunately, but when i’m at my best is really holding true to my purpose and why exists, and I know i’m in that space and i’m doing work in that space i’m more energized and more inducing what i’m doing i’ll put more.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah integrity and action into those things so that’s from a professional standpoint.

Ty Jernstedt: That was from a more active in you know, particularly in marathons or half marathons or other events where they’re relay races.

Ty Jernstedt: from Rotterdam, are prepared to Rotterdam, or the hood to coast back in Oregon which is fine you’re connecting with people and you’re doing things you’re being active So those are things I try to do more often.

Ty Jernstedt: These days, i’m not as active as I used to be, we just need to get back on that train.

Ty Jernstedt: and listen to that voice that’s for that drill sergeant that’s like no, they also thank you, boys again just do it.

Ty Jernstedt: Get issues on get out and do something versus that little slot voice, I hear every so often, I was like no dude it’s fine you’ve been working hard kick back turn on netflix turn on Amazon prime turn on the plus just relax with the dogs.

Ty Jernstedt: In the husband on the couch that’s also fine on our board take a nap because that’s also good for your health, you know there’s really it’s like i’ve learned.

Ty Jernstedt: When my best is one voices have shown up and what coaches might need to listen to.

Ty Jernstedt: which ones are you say go take a hike go take another lap don’t need you right now I need this other voice RD my own grounded centered voice, who I know what needs to happen when it needs to happen.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s always humbly serve me to get things in doing things and also just getting out of my own way, we went.

David Horsager: about this at a time, you said get.

David Horsager: Something you’re you’re coming back to, and this is very you know you’re coaching others in this, but how do you get out of your own way.

Ty Jernstedt: So yeah getting my always.

Ty Jernstedt: measure these voices that I hear that will say don’t do it, you shouldn’t do it it’s not going to work.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah whatever again, these are valid is our voices that have served me and at times in certain places and situations, but in certain moments they’re not serving me so it’s really going to sharpen my radar.

Ty Jernstedt: To when they popped into they taken over the driver seat i’ve been kicked to the passenger seat, or even in the way back in the bus.

Ty Jernstedt: To say you know that’s that can be happening I get back to the front and I may need a passenger voice, who is that drill sergeant Google gets me going or will give me the the courage.

Ty Jernstedt: And the conviction to do things with that, so I need a bit of my voice and that voice they get back in that seat and keep moving forward.

Ty Jernstedt: That is how yeah i’m aware of it, and I don’t get seduced by these voices into a long conversation, which then means i’m not doing anything.

Ty Jernstedt: Because i’m having a nice little internal dialogue with myself and being an internal introverted thinker also not super helpful at times to get stuck in the Rack real my internal thoughts and the one, so what else is don’t do don’t do these.

Ty Jernstedt: There are you can pull.

David Horsager: Is there something you can okay i’m i’m stuck in that i’m going around that what can I pull do I do I just that starts, do you now just.

David Horsager: Okay, I know, when that starts to happen i’m going on the wrong direction, I have to get up and go for a run, I have to go dude Is there something specific you do to get out of that.

Ty Jernstedt: So I i’ve used different techniques so Solomon i’m not so much of the auditory person, but I will say just begin by just doing second up and go and move and move on.

Ty Jernstedt: i’m also a more of a visual person So how do I create visual structures around my space so little post, it notes and reminders of saying OK ty You said this let’s keep yourself accountable for this.

Ty Jernstedt: Go get the shoes on it that has helped me as well, and also being a feeling person I can sometimes touch a parts that is a reminder of.

Ty Jernstedt: You know, sometimes it’s just this don’t miss any work done or here connect with your hearts, or even this is, I learned this from someone just have this feeling of okay slow down the boys feel the pressure slow down.

Ty Jernstedt: relax get centered and then make that decision of what do you do, that is sometimes itself in some situations where I get totally.

Ty Jernstedt: dropped them my head’s with either frustrations or whatever your and just this feeling okay it’s not the brain i’m listening to you it’s my fingers i’m listening to.

Ty Jernstedt: Was that feeling like it just slows the breakdown gets the more grounded centered in at night grounded centered place and realm or we were equipped to know what do I do now what should I do and just again quit talking about it and just get in action mode and do it.

David Horsager: You know action does cover a multitude of sins.

David Horsager: Momentum builds momentum, you know it’s it’s It is interesting, we can get stuck it’s like doing something not the perfect thing but doing something can really change everything right it’s if you find people.

David Horsager: I was just this morning, listen to a podcast about how much if you I mean we’ve all heard this, but the more you you feeling bad about yourself go do something kind to others, and it changes.

David Horsager: So much you know doing something, the problem with many that are the press, perhaps and i’m not a I don’t want to sound like a doctor that i’m not but i’m is is many depression often leads to isolation which which actually amplifies depression.

David Horsager: Right, you know so.

David Horsager: Well, this is interesting, so I what is there any other thing I want to before I leave this topic that you’re doing personally, you know you’re a coach of many you’re you’re you know.

David Horsager: You may be, how are you staying fresh relevant than capable is there anything you’re doing you have your own coach are you listening, are you listening to certain podcasts these days, maybe not everything you’re doing I know you’re a learner.

David Horsager: For sure that’s noted through everything you’ve done here, but maybe you’re reading something specific it’s there’s some ways you stay kind of fresh and relevant and and competent in in your work and just in life.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah, so I would say, I read a lot I don’t really read as many books as I used to but it reading articles, every day, I subscribe to newsletters that give me the yo were relevant information from do new trends or new research and so far as.

David Horsager: A favorite.

David Horsager: jumping in do you have a favorite.

Ty Jernstedt: I like for.

Ty Jernstedt: Articles like fast company I love what they put out there and they have a lot of diverse perspectives and topics that they approach and come from different places to talk about some more topics which I really appreciate.

Ty Jernstedt: Business insider is when I get more of the business kind of topics.

Ty Jernstedt: And the other, you know companies like yourself put on newsletters that you know keeps you informed of what you all are up to to learn and grow.

Ty Jernstedt: it’s funny my peers that just you know talking, but we do talk shop, obviously, but also getting stuff from that Okay, what are you doing what are you learning what’s working for you like that’s also learn more through people.

Ty Jernstedt: which really helps me to do that, so I like to like to read, but more like to learn through others and also look my biggest learning.

Ty Jernstedt: path is to do in action, so how did I learn about myself and learn what works what didn’t work, how to improve things moving forward that’s how my best best learn.

David Horsager: What I love it what’s your um you know you went from kind of in many ways a big company guy to a I can say that that’s a little.

David Horsager: bit big company prison to it to a kind of a.

David Horsager: You know now running your own award winning coaching business and you’re an executive coach you do leadership development out of it, how do you, you know your.

David Horsager: How do you gain business these days like, how do you get work, I mean this is an entrepreneurial question, but you became this entrepreneur.

David Horsager: And you’re doing what you’re passionate about just a you know many people like well how do you do that, how do you just make that jump and you make that leap and how do you actually get business.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so the to make that leap, you have to have the faith.

Ty Jernstedt: and trust yourself, and you can make it work and I have changed industries change functions i’ve gone in house out, you know, having my own.

Ty Jernstedt: And every time it’s like okay just I don’t know this world’s going to step into it and if I don’t like it, I can always come back.

Ty Jernstedt: And then in create my own company, this time it’s relying on the connections, I had from you know previous colleagues that either reselling companies, I worked with or moved on someplace else.

Ty Jernstedt: it’s like whatever else is doing in my in my shoes of your own linkedin you’re making connections that way you’re going to events.

Ty Jernstedt: To meet people today have a more kind of mindful and thoughtful conversation around what are they up to what are their needs, were what what word lanes why play in, and how can I best serve them and how can we collaborate.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s generally it’s how it’s been branding.

David Horsager: Articles what’s your favorite thing to do, you do everything from culture and leadership development to executive coaching and even other you know coaching what’s your favorite?

Ty Jernstedt: I need to create impact with others and, obviously, your one on one coaching you see you see anymore, because you’re on this journey with that one person or even a team, a little bit better just more people you’re engaging with to see them on that journey.

Ty Jernstedt: But then that’s just a small group, you can you can influence so that’s the good part about it, but not so good part about it’s in in designing programs and workshops and trainings and facilitating those things you can impact more people you’re with more people.

Ty Jernstedt: downside it’s kind of a one and done sometimes you don’t know after that did anything change so i’m not really answer your question, David, I guess, I know me I need to have also have these different things i’ve.

Ty Jernstedt: tried topics variety, to keep myself fresh to keep myself and learning and growing, but I would say that you had to put a gun to my head, you can do one thing.

Ty Jernstedt: I guess would be the grip grip coaching team coaching.

David Horsager: yep collaborative coaching so one thing left for ty what are you looking forward to what do you hope for you look down the road.

David Horsager: I don’t know it’s 10 years or what what what’s something you’re hoping for down the road or maybe it’s bucket list, but maybe it’s just kind of hope for the future that you’re a part of.

Ty Jernstedt: So I would want this for my mother is different for myself, but you know for the people in my in my system might not work, my constellation and way beyond that is just that we’re in a place that we’re.

Ty Jernstedt: more mindful of each other more caring of each other more trusting of each other to really create more of these bridges of understanding and get out of this US versus them.

Ty Jernstedt: dynamics, which is just not helping anything so if i’m in the space of maybe a bigger platform, I guess, to bring this message out and bring people in.

Ty Jernstedt: To help support them on their journeys to be more impactful in their roles to create their own bridges and connections, I think that would be a fantastic place.

Ty Jernstedt: And you know I love being in different cultures so getting back on the plane, with the amazing to you know, be more physically with people and improve my understanding of different cultures and backgrounds finding ways to grade these these deeper and stronger bridges with the amazing.

Ty Jernstedt: Being centered retired put it that way would also be super cool as well to have more time to really do pet projects and explore different places and be around the world lot more and not be tied down to a job necessarily would be great, but no matter what I do, I like.

Ty Jernstedt: Those serving others.

David Horsager: Oh, I love it let’s jump into one of those before we roll I know we kind of little gun a longer here, but I want to ask you know.

David Horsager: I I think you are about this human change for the positive there’s there’s no time we’ve needed this ability to build bridges, I mean we’re incentivized against it.

David Horsager: social media is incentivized against it.

David Horsager: Were incentivized toward polarization are here in the US much of our Government over the last 30 years is incentivized against working together we we you know.

David Horsager: We have these hopes young folks have hopes of building bridges again and in the next episode, we need to talk about how do we actually do it.

David Horsager: Because i’m brilliant i’m passionate about that my.

David Horsager: My side part is thinking about big the biggest problems, I want to be about how do we use trust that solve some of these biggest problems and.

David Horsager: Those are governmental those are business, those are social, political and.

David Horsager: boy i’d love to get into that more, but just one of your projects on the way was some of this work in Africa that you did with water’s fine in in the prisons in Cape Town just just tell us, just a quick glimpse of that and something you learned.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so I was part of a leadership program at the time, and we were all tasked to create projects between.

Ty Jernstedt: Times coming together and report back on what we did what we learned about it in our leadership helps create this.

Ty Jernstedt: And I just moved from the US to launch it on didn’t know anyone here like what am I gonna do I there’s a project I get started all the you know they get that voice it’s like you can’t do this it’s impossible.

Ty Jernstedt: it’s too hard, you know yada yada yada and then realize okay get up get out of it’s finding a network, you do have and start making connections and so forth, so I did find a group here in Amsterdam quality young in prison.

Ty Jernstedt: And they’re a fantastic group that does work in youth prisons in countries that are developing so obviously have less resources to get to these kids who are in unfortunate situations.

Ty Jernstedt: So I say great Where are you how can I partner with you and here’s what I do as a coach is i’m sorry intersection between our worlds.

Ty Jernstedt: And then we Alex let’s try this as prototype something so I had found a coach in South Africa that was in the same training program that I was in.

Ty Jernstedt: And they have a youth prison that they that young person was supporting with initiatives around activities and educational projects.

Ty Jernstedt: So i’ve worked with a coach saying Okay, what can we do together to support these kids and what’s the best way to do that, so we had designed a program.

Ty Jernstedt: prototyping with with six boys who were about to be released from prison and we said we need to get them on a journey.

Ty Jernstedt: that’s going to put them on a different path so they don’t get released and do the similar behaviors and follow the similar traps that got them into prison in the first place.

Ty Jernstedt: So, working with her, she worked with these young boys to figure out okay you’re still here, what is your plan once you get out and they were probably 10 to 12 years old kids.

Ty Jernstedt: So while we were with them for three months before they were released, then, once they were released she met with them for another three months to say okay How are things going.

Ty Jernstedt: what’s next for you, what do you need to shift and change to get you to have the life, you want to be having.

Ty Jernstedt: So it was just a way to help them transition back into being back with their families being back with maybe friends who maybe help them get to where they were originally So for me, it was important to do something for kids as I came from very fortunate backgrounds.

Ty Jernstedt: Sorry.

Ty Jernstedt: So I have a responsibility.

Ty Jernstedt: To help create the space for others, this was a small thing I can initiate it someone else who partnered and boyfriend organization and his coach to really help these young boys hopefully get them to have the light they deserve to have.

Ty Jernstedt: Written some guests are very important for me so desperately to get sucked into more and more of helping others who are less fortunate to help them have a life that I was fortunate to be brought up within.

Ty Jernstedt: With the town, I was brought up within the parents that I had the family network, I had support system, there are way more people that have more need, and we also get over ourselves.

Ty Jernstedt: of our lives we think we have to do something for someone else and take the time and be intentional around it, to make it happen.

David Horsager: love it have you stayed in touch or have you heard any stories of what happened with.

Ty Jernstedt: So, this would be so so a while ago, so I had not that’s one of my failings i’m, not to say in contacts.

Ty Jernstedt: I couldn’t be in touch with the boys because of certain reasons, but with the coach with her he has a once in a while.

Ty Jernstedt: But he also has moved on and so forth, but it’s it’s I need to get back into that organization saying okay i’m here again i’m back and i’m sure what, what do you got going on, how can I best support you and help you do the great work you’re doing with these kids around the globe.

David Horsager: Thanks for sharing that’s that’s the work of this work and we don’t always see the change, and I can tell stories of people that didn’t see the change that they made in me.

David Horsager: They probably have no idea, the impact of something that’s impacted my the way I raised my kids or my marriage or my friendships or my leadership that they were a part of and they’re gone now, or they may be, are somewhere that first grade teacher that I have no idea where she is.

David Horsager: Right, so we have a chance, but sometimes only sometimes do we have a chance to actually know, but we still are called to do the work.

David Horsager: and

David Horsager: The oppressed well ty if I see something you, you need to do more of that.

Yes.

Ty Jernstedt: Totally sure that.

David Horsager: that’s what that’s something you ought to be about so ty working working our listeners to find out more about what the great work you’re doing at remix.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah so my my website is remix coach you can find me on linkedin with for my name Twitter i’m not under as much, but that my Twitter handle is just my name tiger instead.

Ty Jernstedt: So we have would love to hear from others if something you’re inspired to you or you have something to collaborate with.

Ty Jernstedt: love and support you on the journeys, you are in within your organization’s or communities that you’re serving i’m always looking for new ways to partner and create some impacts on an amplified the impact others can House in a row.

David Horsager: we’re hoping to see time trying to compel them to jump the pond for.

David Horsager: The 12 1314.

Ty Jernstedt: The great’s.

David Horsager: trusted leaders to get back to the lesson see you all again and yeah that’d be great you guys are doing.

David Horsager: Well before we finish so remax re mix coach.

David Horsager: is distracting find more anti German set and let’s leave you with the final question it’s a trusted leader show we asked everybody who’s the Leader you trust and why.

Ty Jernstedt: So as a leader, that I had again keep talking about it, but it was an amazing time of my life.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah she was an amazing leader, she was very inclusive very embracing a very empowering.

Ty Jernstedt: trusted us to get on and do the work and do the work that we how we felt needs to be done and I had to be dictated by her.

Ty Jernstedt: yeah she was all these things that were super important you know lead with compassion.

Ty Jernstedt: Was bringing her passion to the team into the work and, with that we wanted to make sure also that we were also making sure she was looking as good as she could look at she was reporting into our CEO and President of the company.

Ty Jernstedt: But she has she’s amazing is always great you know, since we both laughs great mentor and always go back to to get that little jolt of inspiration.

Ty Jernstedt: from her of how she just shows up in the world it’s just been a great person to have been able to work for into so the partner with since over these years.

David Horsager: Well, thank you, these leaders, you know they may often those mentors leaders examples, make a bigger difference than they know and we have the chance to try to pass it on to others.

Ty Jernstedt: or obligation, I think.

David Horsager: It is. Ty thank you so much for being here. Thank

David Horsager: you for being a friend and just touching our Community so wonderfully.

David Horsager: That’s it. That’s the

David Horsager: trusted leader show.

David Horsager: Until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 55: Pamela Barnum on Adjusting Your Body Language To Establish Trust

9 November 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Pamela Barnum, Former Undercover Police Office & Federal Prosecuting Attorney, Trust Strategist & Nonverbal Communication Expert, to discuss why adjusting your body language to establish trust is so critical.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Pamela’s Bio:
Pamela Barnum is a former undercover police officer and federal prosecutor turned nonverbal communication expert and trust strategist.

When you take decades of experience, including her unique background of working deep undercover in the drug enforcement section, followed by a rewarding legal career, you get real-world strategies that help audiences crack the code on trust using proven field-tested techniques.

Juggling diverse stakeholder groups with distinct interests and roles leads to an inevitable clash of words and actions. What if you had a strategy to communicate trust quickly and easily without investing more time or money? Increasing trust solidifies relationships and increases profits.

Building on her experience in the criminal justice system, Pamela studied corporate negotiations in graduate school and now shares her experience, research, and expertise with candor, energy, and humor blending actionable strategies with memorable stories.

Pamela’s Links:
Website: https://pamelabarnum.com/
LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/pamela-barnum
Twitter: https://twitter.com/pamelabarnum?lang=en
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pamelabarnum/?hl=en

Key Quotes:
1. “We need to present ourselves for the situation that we’re showing up for.”
2. “How we display ourselves starts from the moment we show up.”
3. “You can win if you understand what the rules are and you use them to your advantage.”
4. “When you look into someone’s eyes, they feel seen.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“The Trust Edge” by David Horsager: https://amzn.to/3k8yFeM
“How to Win Friends & Influence People” by Dale Carnegie: https://amzn.to/3mLoFtQ
Prezi Video: https://prezi.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager and I have a special guest today Pamela Barnum, thank you for being with us.

Pamela Barnum: Well, thank you so much for having me i’ve been looking forward to this for weeks since we first spoke.

David Horsager: Oh yes, and I can’t wait to come out skiing your way i’ll tell you what my family would love that we’ve talked about the mountains, the mountains you’re in so.

David Horsager: For those that don’t know pamela was an undercover police officer, she was a federal prosecuting attorney.

David Horsager: She is turned into a trust strategist and nonverbal communication expert I think it’s fascinating her work, we have some work that overlaps a bit she certainly has some expertise to bring to our time today and i’m just just grateful to get to talk to you about it.

Pamela Barnum: Well, thank you so much, and i’m glad we were introduced this is going to be great.

David Horsager: Absolutely so some similar in different angles on trust, so let’s let’s get into this, so you, you know.

David Horsager: You are like you know undercover give us a little feeling of what was that, like undercover because this is a funny from a trend perspective, you know if I go speak at a big.

David Horsager: chiefs conference or a policing conference, what do I know they’re the most untrusting people in the world, why.

David Horsager: Because they were lied to every single day I didn’t speed I didn’t steal I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t right so and, of course, most of our work is all around, how do I be trusted not how much do I trust them.

David Horsager: The other people, because there are reasons not to trust, but that that was an interesting background tell us about it.

Pamela Barnum: yeah it was definitely interesting because I was the only woman in a unit of 92 specialized officers that work long term undercover project, so what that means is I lived for.

Pamela Barnum: Months at a time with a different name different identity different background story, and I would have to work from usually street level so coming into a Community complete unknown.

Pamela Barnum: and have to work my way through the hierarchy of the criminal underworld, so to speak, so the drug dealers and different gangs and get in gain their trust and.

Pamela Barnum: The interesting thing is, you may think police officers are trusting individuals but.

Pamela Barnum: There is no group of people that are more untrusting than criminals, simply because they have to be by the nature of their.

Pamela Barnum: occupation, they definitely do not like new faces they’re not interested in making a lot of new friends, because any one of them could be.

Pamela Barnum: An undercover police officer, which is definitely not the one they want to meet and I often you know, David it’s interesting because you talk about trust and.

Pamela Barnum: There seems to be that dichotomy between you know pretending to be someone else and having all of these things around that and.

Pamela Barnum: I developed what I call the agenda filter and I think that we all use it in our professional lives are productive in our personal lives as well.

Pamela Barnum: When we’re doing something, and we are taking action towards something.

Pamela Barnum: We use this filter that we put our intention through what our agenda is what our intentions of whatever that action is that we’re going to take.

Pamela Barnum: And if it isn’t the various intention if it’s for ill purposes or we’re trying to you know harm others or only serve ourselves.

Pamela Barnum: You clearly building trust that there’s no foundation there for that it’s going it doesn’t exist.

Pamela Barnum: But if we are there to serve a purpose that is either greater than ourselves or to serve our Community or to build something greater to and, in my case, it was all around justice and and laws and things that our communities had put into place.

Pamela Barnum: That is how I filtered through what I was doing in that particular time and place in my life in order to establish and build trust and at no time did I do things that were illegal, immoral.

Pamela Barnum: or things that I couldn’t live with myself at the end of the day, so you know, with people struggle to see the the trust and working as an undercover police officer there’s that I just wanted to point that out at the Veil.

David Horsager: yeah and then work.

Pamela Barnum: Through some things around.

David Horsager: yeah let’s do that so.

David Horsager: we’re going to get to something totally totally get it for the greater good you’re you’re doing the work for the greater good and we’re grateful for it and so.

David Horsager: So I yeah I was just teasing basically that you know it just like just like attorneys, by the way, and you were the federal prosecuting attorney right and sometimes attorneys are the brunt of of trust jokes.

David Horsager: And yet they are in the research shows to most people are many people, one of the most trusted person or advisors to individuals so it’s it gets some humor and yet attorneys.

David Horsager: are very, very high trust right.

Pamela Barnum: Well, I choose all the professions that are at the butt of jokes and you know i’m not going to disclose whether or not blonde is my natural hair color, but I wanted to have the trifecta of jokes available at my expense, no matter.

Pamela Barnum: Where you go there there’s where we’re going.

David Horsager: Oh, let that one go.

David Horsager: So so let’s let’s just go back, so we are going to go to you know, looking ahead here we’re going to talk about how you build trust, how you build it fast, how you build it as a leader, how do you read people.

David Horsager: A little bit, but before we do that take us through a little bit of a journey here how did you you’re going in undercover you have this, we all agree, you have this cause to help.

David Horsager: The world and and and peace and, and all this greater good that you’re the reason you’re going undercover and trying to build trust and having to you know figure out a way to build trust with this drug Lord that’s totally skeptical and totally you know.

David Horsager: get really I guess the best were suspicious, how did you navigate that can you tell us a journey of of navigation and building trust that ended in good.

Pamela Barnum: and dangerous.

Pamela Barnum: as well, so.

Pamela Barnum: There was, I give you an example of an evening so we’re about eight months into a 10 month long undercover project.

Pamela Barnum: And I had to connect with a dealer that I dealt with a few different times, on occasion, so.

Pamela Barnum: Usually, it was back in back in the day when we had pagers I don’t know if some of your listeners even know what those are but you would type in your phone number, they would call you or you type in a code.

Pamela Barnum: And that meant you were going to meet at a time and place etc, so I called the number.

Pamela Barnum: And I didn’t get my regular deal or someone new picked up the phone, which was highly irregular.

Pamela Barnum: And this new person had taken over for this old dealer for lots of different reasons, so we had agreed to meet at a new place a new time and I was.

Pamela Barnum: negotiate a price for cocaine on this particular time and date so you can appreciate how dangerous it is to now meet a complete stranger that my.

Pamela Barnum: investigative team had no idea who they were because I didn’t know their name they had just taken over this phone number, I was meeting at a place that we had no.

Pamela Barnum: Intel on, and I was going there at around one o’clock in the morning completely by myself so female officer no backup they wouldn’t be able to see me going into this building.

Pamela Barnum: So the level of risk is definitely escalated at this time I go into the building I walk up the stairs it’s three flights of stairs there’s not a lot of light.

Pamela Barnum: I get to the top I go to open the door and all of a sudden, the door opens and inside I can just see out of my peripheral this guy who’s probably always me by over 100 pounds he’s got a foot taller.

Pamela Barnum: he’s dressed and you know the typical the stereotypical biker gear with the vest and the bandana on his head, etc, the chains on his belt.

Pamela Barnum: And the lightest so bright that at disoriented before moment he shuts the door quickly behind me when I entered the apartment I can hear the deadbolt lock.

Pamela Barnum: And the chain slide across the door, so now i’m in this apartment and I see two other individuals over to my left and their packaging cocaine.

Pamela Barnum: And I can see their gun, I can see all of the different things going on.

Pamela Barnum: So i’m a complete stranger to them, but I here, I am a female alone there’s three of them they’re armed and they definitely have home advantage because they’re in their location.

Pamela Barnum: So I, since all of this has happened, I didn’t clearly break this down at this time, there was a lot of other things going on in my mind, but since then i’ve dissected this particular incidents.

Pamela Barnum: Only because I ended up meeting my dealer later and witness protection program and and dissect it a lot of what happened that night, but in this moment.

Pamela Barnum: I broke it down, I called it, you know this 3D of what I was looking for So the first thing was the for display and those are the things that the only thing I have control over in a trust.

Pamela Barnum: situation that that is what I can display to the other person and that trust trifecta that we can display really intersects at.

Pamela Barnum: Our competence, so my ability to do my job.

Pamela Barnum: And you talked a lot about that in the trust edge and and which is you know that’s so important is being able to demonstrate that we know what we are doing, and that was critically important.

Pamela Barnum: In that evening that I could demonstrate that I was, who I said I was, and that I was capable of performing what I was there to perform, which was make that drug exchange.

Pamela Barnum: The next thing is courage or confidence in that moment, and being able to demonstrate that and display that not in what I say, because we can say anything we’ve all been around those people who can say whatever they want it’s in how we.

Pamela Barnum: display that with our non verbals so more open posture so demonstrating my vulnerability, by not closing off, but being open.

Pamela Barnum: Being a little bit taller having really great posture is not just what our mom or chiropractor tells us, you know standing up tall and straight definitely transmits something that that says confidence.

Pamela Barnum: And also just making trying my best to make myself just appear a little bit bigger.

Pamela Barnum: And then the third part of that trifecta is empathy and it may seem strange or other place, especially in that scenario with drug dealers.

Pamela Barnum: But demonstrating and displaying empathy in all of those situations is critically important because, if you have competence and confidence but you’re not.

Pamela Barnum: displaying empathy or if you only have empathy and competence and you’re not displaying any courage or confidence.

Pamela Barnum: The trifecta doesn’t work in this scenario, with our non verbals when we’re trying to establish our trustworthiness without saying a word.

Pamela Barnum: So that was the first thing the next thing i’m trying to do in that moment is to decode what’s happening around me so that’s the second D i’m trying to examine.

Pamela Barnum: All the things happening what’s the guy behind me doing Why is he, why do you lock me in the room i’m trying to come up.

Pamela Barnum: With reasons that don’t terrify me that I can identify what’s happening What are they doing over there, I see they’re cutting the cocaine or adding product in order to further their.

Pamela Barnum: value to the their back end of that product, but they had promised me a certain quality so i’m trying to figure out what’s happening i’m trying to take all of this in while still maintaining my composure and the third is.

Pamela Barnum: to detect deception both verbal and nonverbal.

Pamela Barnum: And there are cues that we can have there’s no such thing as a human lie detector anyone who can you know say for certain that people are lying, there are only things that we can see or hear.

Pamela Barnum: That tell us that further investigation is warranted, and we know where to go with the next thing the average person is only a really 5050 shot when it comes to being able to detect deception and there’s only.

Pamela Barnum: Three groups of people that are better than average based on their careers, and then the rest of the people have to take really a lot of training.

David Horsager: we’ve gotta you gotta stop there for a second because.

David Horsager: What you know, I have a friend CEO who said, basically, with all the hiring we’re hiring someone executives hiring and we’re taking these tests we’re doing all this, he said, basically we get it wrong about 50% of the time anyway right so.

David Horsager: So so tell me this we just off the rails here but lie detectors they they work.

Pamela Barnum: polygraphs work just to measure what they’re there to measure and the polygraph examiners who are very highly skilled and trained individuals their real.

Pamela Barnum: superpower is their ability to interview and to pay attention and to know what to ask next they are exceptional and it’s interesting because the police force that I used to work for has some of the best in the world, so much so that, when I was delivering a lecture to some FBI.

Pamela Barnum: agents, they told me that one of the officers, I used to work with hat they use his interview of a former.

Pamela Barnum: Major general from a base, who was turned out to be a serial killer unfortunately as their interview techniques that they have dissected how well he interviewed and he’s polygraph.

Pamela Barnum: officer, but he was using a polygraph in that particular interview, but how he was able to get that soldier that highly decorated soldier to confess to several murders was extraordinary and it’s all based on his experience it’s a polygraph or.

David Horsager: Questions questions are critical.

Pamela Barnum: Whether you’re asking your colleague graph.

David Horsager: or your you’re driving I mean you can drive a conversation lead and lead a conversation with questions so i’m going to keep asking them and firing.

David Horsager: away, but before I want you to go back to where you were a moment ago, but before you do that, not to not very long, but what are the three occupations that are better than most at basically seeing mistrust or deception.

Pamela Barnum: This probably won’t surprise your audience, the first is emergency room doctors and nurses, they see it all they’re very good at picking up on it, the second group, social workers.

Pamela Barnum: The third group not your average police officer, they are no better than 5050 unfortunately highly trained.

David Horsager: Third, the third one is mom.

Pamela Barnum: You.

David Horsager: wish to go I that’s what I tell my.

Pamela Barnum: son um the third one are highly specialized officers that receive.

Pamela Barnum: Training in this area alone so and it is a skill and here’s the thing for your listeners lot of people really sometimes classify themselves as auditory.

Pamela Barnum: or visual like do you like, to listen to the book on audible or do you prefer to read it either on a kindle or a hard copy and that’s usually how people can tell which they fall into.

Pamela Barnum: And it’s interesting because to be really good at detecting deception, you need to be great at both.

Pamela Barnum: And to be great at both is very hard try watching someone and listening to them for five minutes straight and paying close attention to their every word how they say it their cadence.

Pamela Barnum: And their body language is a real skill that takes a lot of practice of course parents of teenagers are pretty good at this.

David Horsager: But they’re getting practice.

Pamela Barnum: they’re getting practice.

David Horsager: So, how did what does this mean to us, you know how do we take from here and say wow Okay, you were undercover got the drug deal, by the way, we’re gonna have to come back to the end of the story.

David Horsager: Right yeah made it.

David Horsager: But before we come back to the end what What does this mean what can we take away from this reading, how can we build trust faster when we are unknown.

Pamela Barnum: So the first thing that we can do is when we show up, we can control things before we even get on the phone call get on the zoom call enter the room for the meeting, and you know we talked a lot about.

Pamela Barnum: You know it’s great to talk on social media and put those means up about you know it doesn’t really matter don’t judge don’t be hard on yourself don’t do it, and I agree with all of that, I think, in a perfect world if we could all live.

Pamela Barnum: by Bernie browns credo and and have be vulnerable and everything is you know sunshine and rainbows I would be all over that.

Pamela Barnum: And I agree that in a perfect mental health is amazing, unfortunately, we are judged and we can’t help it, because that is how our brains developed since the beginning of time.

Pamela Barnum: And they developed that way to protect us from getting eaten when we stepped outside of the cave or getting beaten, with a club that someone was holding.

Pamela Barnum: Because they needed the fire or whatever was going on way back when so aren’t we can’t help that that’s how our brains have developed we judge to protect ourselves, we have a fight flight or freeze response because that’s how our brain works.

Pamela Barnum: And so we can help offset that a little bit by first of all, being aware that that’s how things work.

Pamela Barnum: And by using that to our advantage, so in a professional situation, we need to present ourselves for the situation that we’re showing up for.

Pamela Barnum: And I know you know i’m showing up to a podcast i’m in my home.

Pamela Barnum: But i’m on camera so I brushed my hair today I put on some makeup i’m dressed appropriately because I want to send the message to your viewers people that view this.

Pamela Barnum: That, I am a professional that I showed up that I put effort, but I took the time.

Pamela Barnum: To really pay respect to you, your listeners your viewers and all of the people that are taking their time to be a part of this today, I think that that’s important.

Pamela Barnum: Would it have been easier to put on a T shirt and put on you know ponytail or absolutely and that a lot of people can do that or.

Pamela Barnum: let’s talk about tattoos for a moment I know they’re incredibly popular I don’t have a problem with tattoos one way or the other, I worked in a culture.

Pamela Barnum: In my undercover days, where that was the thing.

Pamela Barnum: I think it’s important, though, if you’re showing up to things to understand what are the feelings that the people on the other side of the table have toward that.

Pamela Barnum: Is is it something that is welcome in that culture and everybody has that and it’s a part of it fantastic.

Pamela Barnum: Is it something that you’ve shown up to the building and nobody has visible tattoos Does that mean you were a longer sleeve jacket when you’re showing up to something possibly.

Pamela Barnum: I think that how we display ourselves starts from the moment we show up in our how we dress how we appear what we say what we do and it may seem superficial and some people may be offended by that.

Pamela Barnum: And unfortunately that’s Okay, you can be offended you can be upset that that’s how things work, but that is how things work.

Pamela Barnum: People make judgments, without even realizing that you within 15 milliseconds the people who are watching this video they already know you David so they know and love and trust you and they’ve come back for more.

Pamela Barnum: they’ve never seen or heard me before within 50 milliseconds of seeing my face they decided whether they like or dislike trust or distrust of me before they even blink your eyes that registered in their brain now, it could be.

Pamela Barnum: They had a childhood friend, or they have their sister wears the same glasses as me.

Pamela Barnum: They love their sister they really love me they liked me and the things that i’m saying resonate with them, they don’t even know why, but their subconscious is picking up on things, conversely.

Pamela Barnum: Someone that they’ve had a falling out with that work their ex wife, whatever where’s the same color of blue had a similar necklace whatever that is.

Pamela Barnum: triggered them to dislike or distrust or their accountant looked like me and embezzled money at some point, and all of a sudden, that was a trigger we can’t control that we can’t.

Pamela Barnum: know that in advance, so we can’t make up for that, however, we can control for the things that we do know in advance.

Pamela Barnum: And if we sense that things are challenged, because there are things that we can decode remember that’s the second D.

Pamela Barnum: We can sense those things if we’re paying attention you know we’re using our auditory and our visual senses and we’re paying keen attention to the other person we can start to make shifts and course correct as we’re working through these conversations to build trust.

David Horsager: Okay, so I want to pause for a second, because what I feel like you’re telling us is a very selfless approach.

David Horsager: And our move in our world is towards selfishness, I deserve this you can’t judge me you don’t judge me and yet you’re saying you will even.

David Horsager: change what you were, for the sake of them, the greater good you’ll cover a tattoo it’ll be judged, because I think.

David Horsager: What I love about this is you’re so honest and yet people don’t seem to you know.

David Horsager: People don’t want to hear this, that you, you you everybody, you are all going to be judged in the first 15 milliseconds you’re going to be judged and people can’t help it.

David Horsager: We will be judged, this is, I think I just think it has to be stated, because this idea of a don’t judge each other, no chance.

David Horsager: you’re going to be judged, so what you are judged for isn’t just up to them it’s up to you, and you can do something about it, but you might have to sacrifice your independence and your self focus is that true.

Pamela Barnum: it’s a 100% true, and is it always fair, is it always just no it isn’t and that’s part of being in a Community that’s part of being in a world where other people exist and no other time in history has that been more apparent.

Pamela Barnum: than at this time that we’ve all been living through, where people in some cases have felt that they’ve had a right.

Pamela Barnum: To say awful things to one another and to be judgmental in ways that never in our history, have we thought that that has been okay.

Pamela Barnum: And you know I think we’ll be talking about different books and things and there’s a book that’s been talking about this for years and it’s always I always have it it’s called.

Pamela Barnum: How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie and you know it’s dated for sure, and some of his reference are a little kitschy and.

Pamela Barnum: that’s all but that’s exactly you succinctly put exactly what he said you just sometimes you just do things for other people and you’ll get more with honey than vinegar every single time and.

Pamela Barnum: That will make you you’re doing it actually for yourself, deep down, because when you’re making other people feel good about their choices and feel good about what they’re doing is also serving you.

Pamela Barnum: And if you don’t want to be a part of a culture or a company where for getting back to our tattoo example or multiple facial piercings are frowned upon.

Pamela Barnum: Then you don’t have to be that is a complete choice you can.

Pamela Barnum: work somewhere else or be part of something that that is welcome and encouraged and celebrated and you earn a great income as a part of that culture or you start it yourself that’s completely available but.

Pamela Barnum: it’s not always something that you have the power to enforce and change in that particular company, you can always start your own and do your own thing, but I just want to help people understand that you can win.

Pamela Barnum: If you understand what the rules are and you use them to your advantage.

David Horsager: Absolutely so let’s so what let’s take it a step further we’re walking into the we hit the DS a couple times and just to say them display decode detect.

David Horsager: But let’s let’s go into the conference room for the first time i’m giving a presentation, how can I show up and build trust i’ve never seen this board of directors before, how should I think about showing up i’m not.

David Horsager: overtly you know wearing or looking away that’s inappropriate wearing something inappropriate or looking with it’s inappropriate what else should, I think about.

Pamela Barnum: posture is critically important it starts the minute you pull into the parking lot so depending on how you get there, maybe you take public transit maybe you’ve driven.

Pamela Barnum: But how you walk through the parking lot up to the building you never know who’s looking out the window.

Pamela Barnum: And when you walk with purpose there’s actually been research done on this and it’s fascinating to me people that walk slightly faster than average and walk like they know where they’re going are seen as confident competent and trustworthy.

Pamela Barnum: So we are walking with purpose essentially we’re walking with purpose to the building, we make eye contact and smile at the security guard or the cleaner or the receptionist or the person who greets us at the front.

Pamela Barnum: And we are genuine in that smile we’re happy to see them because we don’t know first of all that’s the human thing to do, and it is the kind thing to do so that should be enough, but secondly.

Pamela Barnum: Again we don’t know who knows who who’s telling who’s talking to who at the coffee break or the lunch break gee did you see that.

Pamela Barnum: David came in for an interview he was so nice, he asked me how my day was, and you know, nobody ever talks to me when they come in and check them to get their security badge to go up to see Mr so and so so.

Pamela Barnum: there’s you know always making that I contact critically important in western cultures now again a lot of what i’m going to talk about here today, David is Western cultures there.

Pamela Barnum: A lot of your listeners are all over the world, I know you do a lot of work in Africa, and there are different ways of handling I contact proximity to one another, that are very different, so I wanted to stress that i’m talking primarily about Western cultures here excellent.

David Horsager: yep no problem.

Pamela Barnum: Okay.

Pamela Barnum: So we’re making eye contact and for those introverts are people who are a little bit more.

Pamela Barnum: reserved a little bit shire here’s a strategy, and I was that person, especially starting out working undercover.

Pamela Barnum: I just made it my purpose to register the eye color of every person I spoke with So if I could figure out what their ICO and it sounds easy like Oh, I know what their eye color is I just but.

Pamela Barnum: It takes a little effort you have to really look into their eyes for a moment, and when you look into someone’s eyes, they feel seen.

Pamela Barnum: And that builds that connection, so I would look into their eyes just it just took a moment to register there, so I try to look into and I practice this still to this day I go to the grocery store I.

Pamela Barnum: You know, pay for gas, I do these things, I look into people’s eyes and now it’s more important than ever, especially if we happen to be in a part of the world.

Pamela Barnum: Where our faces covered where we can’t see our smile from our mouth, but they can see her smile in our eyes so registering that smile making eye contact very important walking with purpose.

Pamela Barnum: Excellent posture open posture Those are all things that communicate confidence and trustworthiness and that’s before you even show up into that boardroom.

Pamela Barnum: Keeping your bag or the things that you need to carry with you, maybe it’s your laptop whatever it is, in your non dominant hand.

Pamela Barnum: I know that handshaking is not something that’s happening as much as it once was, in many places, except I have traveled a little bit in the south and it’s still very popular.

Pamela Barnum: So.

David Horsager: there’s someplace they don’t even know, there was a pandemic, but it’s.

Pamela Barnum: Totally yeah.

Pamela Barnum: Totally fine with it, so, but in some places, but there’s still the elbow thing that some people are doing as well, so you need your dominant term for that so whatever the greeting happens to be usually it’s going to happen with your dominant hand or arm so keeping your.

Pamela Barnum: Your non dominant arm for carrying your supplies or your bag, etc, is important to you all, with this week.

Pamela Barnum: I don’t know if you’ve ever been in that situation, we got to switch hands you’re doing something feels kind of awkward throws you off your game.

Pamela Barnum: But if you’ve already pre planned it makes a big difference so having that and then that is before you now you’re into the boardroom.

Pamela Barnum: You have an air of confidence about you, you have.

Pamela Barnum: At least a neutral smile it doesn’t have to be the big hey we’re all here type of dissing genuine smile, but at least a neutral smile that lets people know that you’re.

Pamela Barnum: happy to be there you’re grateful for the opportunity and you’re excited to get started in whatever it is that they’ve invited you to be there to do.

David Horsager: love it, these are great ideas I and they’re actionable and I can do them and.

David Horsager: You can just see where it where these kind of things that were there more natural for people, those people are coming out, whether inside their head or heart they’re more trustworthy or not they show up here they heal it there, since you know.

David Horsager: So you know, one of the most repelling traits and people well a magnetic trait can be competence and and humility and these kind of healthy humility and.

David Horsager: arrogance pushes people away and some of these could quickly feel like arrogance and i’m even thinking back to our drug dealer which I can’t wait we’ll come back around to the end of the story on but i’m thinking okay hot shot.

David Horsager: You know blonde lady comes in, is walking confident and all that, like I i’m almost feeling like.

David Horsager: I wouldn’t I would think natural would be to intimidate you a little bit you’re going to keep back like that i’m actually almost wondering about you, but that it can quickly look like arrogance, how do you how do you manage that.

Pamela Barnum: You have to temper it with empathy so that is the critical piece so you’d like I said, you have the competence and the confidence if you’re missing empathy the trust.

Pamela Barnum: it’s difficult to have that display of trust so empathy is communicated again with a neutral smile making eye contact that is not intimidating or creepy too much eye contact, especially if its opposite genders can be interpreted as creepy or.

Pamela Barnum: ill advised certainly and unprofessional to little again Western cultures can be seen as disinterested or.

Pamela Barnum: disengaged so we want to have six the research tells us 60 to 70% and we get that by registering I Pilar by just making eye contact when someone is speaking now here’s an interesting piece of research as well if we’re in a room.

Pamela Barnum: And we’re having a conversation maybe it’s a sales conversation maybe it is a conversation that we’re presenting to the board, whatever that is.

Pamela Barnum: And usually we find there always one or two people who do a lot of the talking and there are sometimes people who do none of the talking.

Pamela Barnum: And just based on that we don’t know who the decision maker is.

Pamela Barnum: Sometimes it could be the person who does, none of the talking and the one who’s doing all the talking has zero decision making power, but maybe we’re the new person we don’t know that so Here are a couple of ways to tell.

Pamela Barnum: And two things that someone in our position as we’re walking into that room should do.

Pamela Barnum: We need to make eye contact equally with all of the people, whether or not they’re speaking or silent so we’re looking when we are opening our mouth our eyes are 60 to 70% of everyone in the room.

Pamela Barnum: The next thing so that’s what we are displaying the thing that we are decoding is regardless of who is speaking.

Pamela Barnum: Where is the torso, of the other people in the room, pointed when they are either speaking or listening and oftentimes and especially their feet, are going to be positioned slightly more toward the decision maker, so if you are at a board table it can be difficult to see the feet.

Pamela Barnum: Because you know the table is there and it’s tough, but if we’re in those swivel chairs those executive chairs, it can be even it can be easier because you can slightly see.

Pamela Barnum: Where they are positioned so if someone is speaking over.

Pamela Barnum: To my side, but I am positioned away, but even though they’re talking I could kind of be looked looking as though i’m listening.

Pamela Barnum: But when my body is pointed toward Sally over here Sally hasn’t said much if i’m the one giving the meeting I should really be paying attention to Sally I should really be queued in.

Pamela Barnum: That it’s quite possible and more likely that Sally has regardless of her title and regardless of where her positions in the company that Sally probably has a lot of authority and a lot of sway with the people in that room to make decisions.

David Horsager: very interesting so let’s take it, you know you’ve given some nonverbal techniques, maybe you have some more to increase trust, but.

David Horsager: What about the top three I know you talk about this sometimes top three that damage trust during even virtual events in a meet and meetings and why they aren’t what you think.

Pamela Barnum: Okay, well, one is having a virtual background.

Pamela Barnum: So.

Pamela Barnum: Now there’s a proviso for that so.

David Horsager: If that’s why we have what we have a real background.

Pamela Barnum: So the providers, though, for that is if you’re in a conference or if you’re with a company and having the branding.

Pamela Barnum: is critically important the virtual background can be fine just make sure you actually have a real green screen.

Pamela Barnum: and appropriate backlighting and front lighting, so that when you move your hair and your hands and things don’t ghost and that it’s not really possible to tell that it’s a virtual background.

Pamela Barnum: But if you’re just conducting you know, a zoom meeting you’re at home or don’t put up those virtual backgrounds, with the palm tree or it looks like you have like a Manhattan loft.

Pamela Barnum: But you’re you know inter house in suburbia and it’s seven o’clock at night, but it looks like it’s 12 High Noon on you know time square behind you.

Pamela Barnum: And the reason for that there’s a couple of reasons, and the first is around some research around vulnerability.

Pamela Barnum: And the research tells us that when I am being vulnerable with you, so I have you in my home and we try to keep it as professional and without a lot of personal things that i’m not prepared to share with complete strangers, that are not in the background.

Pamela Barnum: i’m feeling vulnerable because you’re in my house and that’s as vulnerable as it gets inviting people or even in your office.

Pamela Barnum: Complete strangers, and by you know coming into your office can be make people feel vulnerable as well, depending on the situation.

Pamela Barnum: So there’s a bit of vulnerability there, and in my mind and in the mind, most people they expect that vulnerability to be returned and that builds trust i’m being vulnerable with you you’re being vulnerable with me.

Pamela Barnum: We are building some trust together the second piece to that is a going back to our limbic brain our subconscious where we’re how we developed over time.

Pamela Barnum: you’re hiding something what else, are you hiding so you’re hiding what’s going on back there now you’re saying this.

Pamela Barnum: Maybe consciously i’m not even wondering, but my subconscious is now listening and looking for triggers as to what else you’re not being open about.

Pamela Barnum: And i’m second guessing a few things i’m maybe being a little bit harder on you than I need to be because.

Pamela Barnum: I don’t feel that you’re being completely honest with me so there’s those two things so that that would definitely be one and that all it takes a lot of people by surprise because they feel.

Pamela Barnum: You know, when I don’t know if you watch tiger King or not, when the pandemic first began Okay, even if you did most people will never admit to it it’s one of those things that nobody wants to talk about.

David Horsager: i’m being open I didn’t see it.

Pamela Barnum: Well, it was the number one virtual background was actually the guy from Tyler King with one of the Tigers.

Pamela Barnum: For.

Pamela Barnum: The entire month.

Pamela Barnum: of March and April during that netflix show what can you imagine how horrifying that would be for people in a professional setting so.

David Horsager: i’ll tell you, you know another piece of.

David Horsager: Research here early on in the pandemic well a big finding was all of a sudden CEOs were being more trusted.

David Horsager: Because they were removed from the ivory tower and you know the cat jumped on the piano behind them and the four year old was running in their undies.

David Horsager: And so that just opened this all of a sudden, they saw them as human and human ization went up and connection went up with many at least.

David Horsager: Especially if they didn’t of course do a virtual background, which made it didn’t and there was a lot of human ization that happened there, and a lot of positive for a time, virtually.

Pamela Barnum: Absolutely absolutely.

David Horsager: Well, we could talk a whole lot more go.

David Horsager: ahead, give us a couple more tips okay and.

Pamela Barnum: What is eye contact.

Pamela Barnum: And it’s hard to do, especially if you’re in a meeting where there’s you know we call it Brady bunch style or wherever there’s a lot of people I use all these old TV show references but.

Pamela Barnum: Because you know for it’ll be talking over here and sally’s up over here and we’re looking around because we feel like that’s natural to look at a human face and was drawn to the human face.

Pamela Barnum: So a little tip is even though it feels completely unnatural and disengaged is to always be looking at your webcam.

Pamela Barnum: And you can do that by putting a photograph of your family your pets your little SMILEY face whatever it is right beside your webcam always be looking.

Pamela Barnum: At your webcam you know the research tells us 60 to 70% eye contact in person virtual is almost 100% otherwise you look disengaged or you fall into that are BF that happens and people see you as disengaged and it goes a long way in not building trust.

David Horsager: So i’m here in this big studio i’ve got this massive screen so there’s my camera right there i’m looking at, and I can see, I look like i’m looking at you, but I want to.

David Horsager: See you like you’re just a few inches away, and yet it feels like you’re a marathon away right because.

David Horsager: Art I almost need to put the move that just have have have our team move the picture of you over because I can see.

David Horsager: You know it’s set up, so I can have 100 people watching watching all of them, if you know, if needed, but that’s a very interesting and very true, I can tell when people are looking at me.

David Horsager: right through the camera lens or if they’re looking just off slightly, which is a big deal on how we set the room.

Pamela Barnum: It is and for those of you that present so here’s one last little tip that i’ll just give that has served me very, very well.

Pamela Barnum: For CEOs are leaders that are presenting in meetings and they feel nervous, or maybe don’t know their material.

Pamela Barnum: As well as they would like words, the last minute thing there’s a little program very inexpensive it’s called pressie video.

Pamela Barnum: And you can use on MAC or PC and you can type your notes you’ll even have to use slides or anything you can just type your notes into one long thing.

Pamela Barnum: And you can position it so your notes are right underneath of your camera.

Pamela Barnum: And you can just use your mouse and just slide them along, so it always looks like you are looking exactly at the camera and you are not moving your eye anywhere else, it is brilliant so anytime you have new research it’s a great little tip.

David Horsager: Great tips well there’s a whole lot more we get extract from your brilliant mind on this this these ideas let’s go back to the story of you know, there you are the drug deals going on you’re in there all by yourself what happened.

Pamela Barnum: So the deal happen, so we have the money, and we had negotiated it in advance.

Pamela Barnum: And what people see on TV is that you know the deal happens the undercover leads or, then the Swat team kicks in the door, and everybody gets taken down that sort of thing in real long term undercover projects that never happens.

Pamela Barnum: Because I have to continue, I have to leave the next day or go to the next house or go to the.

David Horsager: place you want to live because.

Pamela Barnum: Because I want to live and because I need to maintain my cover for the entirety of the project.

Pamela Barnum: And usually what happens is at the beginning of the project, we have a tentative idea if it starts to go well, which this one did we I.

Pamela Barnum: bought for over 70 drug dealer so we had over 70 dealers in this town that I had made connections and had solid drunk buys from which is remarkable in a street level.

Pamela Barnum: Project, especially for women, and so we knew that we wanted to keep going we’re going to have this date that we set way in advance, because you need to bring in.

Pamela Barnum: Over 100 other police officers from all over to do what we call take down day.

Pamela Barnum: and take down day is planned at months in advance and we’re going to do what we call REPS and REPS are essentially what they sound like you rip off drug dealers.

Pamela Barnum: For lots of drugs, with no intention of paying them it’s as exciting and as dangerous as it sounds so you show up to a deal.

Pamela Barnum: You get the drugs and you either take off your hat or do whatever other signal you’re going to do, and then the team comes in and takes off the drug dealers, etc.

Pamela Barnum: So we had one of those set format at a few who is the name of this particular person.

Pamela Barnum: At a much later date, so we had set up we done this deal I leave, I had the drugs, we have set up some other deals and we’re going to do this big REP at the very end.

Pamela Barnum: And we do all of these REPS and at you know between four and 6am over 70 different houses search warrants are executed in the early morning hours because it’s a lot less dangerous usually people are sleeping.

Pamela Barnum: boom search warrants he gets brought in, and he decides he wants to go into witness protection.

Pamela Barnum: For lots of different reasons, you know doesn’t want to go to prison but also he had shared information about other people, that would be.

Pamela Barnum: bad news for him for sure, in the long run, so I met with him.

Pamela Barnum: and asked him, you know why did you why did you have your guy locked me in and what was going on and why were all of these things happening and I asked him what the drugs and there were a few other things that have gone on in the apartment that weren’t right and.

Pamela Barnum: And he said, you know I just didn’t know who you brought with you, I had no idea who you were.

Pamela Barnum: If you would brought like if there were five guys on the stairs that we’re going to rip me off if what was going to happen if you maybe you brought a gun what was going on, I didn’t know and so to me it was really interesting because.

Pamela Barnum: i’ve only thinking about myself in that moment, like my safety what’s going on, you know I didn’t mention at the beginning of the story, I was a rookie undercover.

Pamela Barnum: At this time it was one of my very first project so i’m also you know terrified inside trying to make myself appear all of these different things, but inside i’m just dying.

Pamela Barnum: And so it really stuck in my mind and so he walked me through all of the things that he was noticing about me.

Pamela Barnum: i’m remembering all of the things that I noticed about him, which is you know it’s really stuck in my mind, because, again, it was one of the first.

Pamela Barnum: And we had a really great talk almost philosophical in a way, about how you never know what the other person is thinking.

Pamela Barnum: What your expectations are around other people and how you know we always see things from our own baggage all the things we bring to the table and all the things that we expect to have happen.

Pamela Barnum: And it was really just profound to me to think that he was thinking, the identical things that I was thinking, even though I thought he had the upper hand.

Pamela Barnum: He thought that I did, and I really believe that, in every interaction that we have both professionally and personally I think that that happens all the time.

Pamela Barnum: I think people feel very vulnerable and feel very like.

Pamela Barnum: That they need to protect themselves and that they’re wondering how you know they’ve screwed something up or this other person has the upper hand, or what the other person is thinking.

Pamela Barnum: And we play these games in our minds, all the time, whether we’re the CEO of a fortune 500 company or we’re cocaine dealer on street level deals like there’s the human brain works, the same, and it was just really interesting to me.

David Horsager: That is fascinating.

David Horsager: So much more i’ve got one more question for you, I got many but i’m going to ask you at least one more before that, where can we find out about pamela.

Pamela Barnum: Well, my website, right now, it will be under construction, Charlie, but you can go to pamela Barnum calm and Barnum is like the circus, so I make jokes to my husband about that all the time, because he really is like the greatest showman he is the circus guy so.

David Horsager: All right, we’re gonna put all that in the show notes stress the Leader show.com.

David Horsager: pamela this has been fascinating you know it’s a trusted leader show we have so many other things we could talk about being trusted leaders and how we show up and all that but who is the leader you trust and why.

Pamela Barnum: You know I thought, a lot about that because I knew you’re gonna ask me that question, and the one answer that just kept coming back to me was mala and I know that just may seem.

Pamela Barnum: obvious, but she is just such a powerful person that at a young age, made such an impact and continues to she hasn’t changed.

Pamela Barnum: And that I think has been so powerful for me and I just pulled a quote of hers I love this that some people only ask others to do something and I believe Why wait for someone else we can make that step ourselves and I thought.

Pamela Barnum: That that’s just words to live by she just takes action and she doesn’t expect others to but that’s what she lives by and i’m impressed by that.

David Horsager: inspiring love it pamela Thank you so much for joining us pamela Barnum from undercover to trust and communication expert and we’re i’m grateful to call you friend.

David Horsager: Everybody Thank you for listening to the dress of LEADER show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 54: Mark Hunter on Why Sales Is NOT A Profession

2 November 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Mark Hunter, Author, Keynote Speaker, and “The Sales Hunter”, to discuss why sales is NOT a profession.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Mark’s Bio:
Mark Hunter, CSP, “The Sales Hunter,” is recognized as one of the top 50 most influential sales and marketing leaders in the world. He is author of “A Mind for Sales” his other books include: “High-Profit Prospecting” and “High-Profit Selling.”

The focus of his work is helping to influence and impact others to help them see and achieve what they didn’t think was possible. He’s been quoted in Forbes, Inc, Entrepreneur and Bloomberg’s Business Week. Clients he’s had the privilege to work with range from numerous “Fortune 100” companies to small start-ups.

Mark travels more than 200 days per year and has spoken on 5 continents and 28 countries.

Mark’s Links:
Website: https://thesaleshunter.com/
“A Mind For Sales” by Mark Hunter: https://amzn.to/3EvaD5u
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markhunter/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheSalesHunter
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/MarkHunterTheSalesHunter
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesaleshunter/

Key Quotes:
1. “Sales and leadership are the same thing.”
2. “Sales is really helping people.”
3. “The most successful sales people are the ones who are focused.”
4. “The most successful companies are the ones who are focused.”
5. “A sales strategy is not what you sell, it’s the outcomes you create.”
6. “Trust is the currency of business.”
7. “Just because you can measure it doesn’t mean it’s worth measuring.”
8. “I’m not into quantity. I’m in to quality.”
9. “Activity has nothing to do with real true productivity.”
10. “We have to be prepared to look outside the box.”
11. “Discipline is being focused.”
12. “You cannot click and pitch.”
13. “Sales is not a profession, sales is not a job, sales is a lifestyle.”
14. “Sales is a relationship.”
15. “Integrity is not done solo. Integrity is done with others.”
16. “A rising tide lifts all boats.”
17. “Life is a journey. It’s not a destination.”
18. “Tomorrow begins today.”
19. “The most important appointments you can make are the appointments to yourself.”
20. “As leaders, if we’re not creating new leaders we’re not doing our job.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“A Mind For Sales” by Mark Hunter: https://amzn.to/3EvaD5u
“Atomic Habits” by James Clear: https://amzn.to/3GASAN1

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I am here with another special guest, a friend of mine mark hunter the sales hunter he is one of the most influential.

David Horsager: Thought leaders in sales he’s author of this great book, you can see, I don’t dog ear and and put.

David Horsager: sticky notes and every book but it’s called a mind for sales he speaks all over the world, and in fact today we caught him in Toledo, Spain on your way back to Madrid working with the leadership team there so welcome mark hunter.

Mark Hunter: Thank you for having me on and, yes, it is Toledo, not Toledo.

David Horsager: that’s right you’re in Spain so and that’s famous, for we were talking about this before the show Tu.

David Horsager: Tu lado steel, which is the you know the top steel swords the Spanish swords are made right there I bend to the factory there, by the way, and and seeing.

David Horsager: That and seeing the the you know we have a sword in our home my my uncle and aunt bought us the you know for our marriage in fact we cut our wedding cake within you know, at least for the for the for the picture with that big Tu lado steel sword.

Mark Hunter: Well you’ll have to send me pictures, because I don’t have time to get there, so.

David Horsager: yeah right good, well, mark you know before I get into it here I think of you certainly as a huge thought leader in sales.

David Horsager: Huge in your wisdom, not in your stature, but you are a tall gentleman to.

David Horsager: let’s uh let’s before we get there just give us a little you know one minute what What do people not know about mark hunter that they should know.

Mark Hunter: Well, people always think that i’ve been in sales my whole life and, of course, if you read the book of mine for sales, you know that it wasn’t I did not want to get into sales, that was the last thing I wanted to do.

Mark Hunter: But I got into it only because I couldn’t afford car insurance because of my speeding tickets.

Mark Hunter: And that was the only reason I got into sales and i’m is not a success, I struggled so you know sales was not first nature to me by any means.

Mark Hunter: But you know what I learned over the years and I had a great corporate stint for 18 years and then i’ve been doing this for 20 i’m a little older than you just to say just and.

David Horsager: i’ve been doing this for 20 over 20.

Mark Hunter: wow that’s impressive that’s impressive and you know along the way it’s just been an absolute fun ride being able to meet with so many thousands of people 10s of hundreds of thousands, people.

Mark Hunter: all around the world and really helping them understand that sales sales and leadership or the same thing you know, to really think about a good salesperson a good leader what’s their jump tell influence and impact others to help other see and achieve what they didn’t think was possible.

David Horsager: yeah.

David Horsager: And yet, you make a differentiation with customer service and how services not sales.

Mark Hunter: Oh wow you did read the book you i’m going to give you props on it, yes, because customer service is just taking care of the customer.

Mark Hunter: What I want to do in sales is create incremental opportunities, you know what I like to say is, if you had a problem, not that you have a problem.

Mark Hunter: But if you had a problem and I had a solution, you would want me to reach out to me that’s what sales is all about sales is really helping people deal with their issues that they have to do it.

David Horsager: that’s great stuff well let’s get into this a little bit more i’m going to jump to the book a little bit, because I think people need to they can just go get their own mind for sales mark counter CSP right there.

David Horsager: But I want to touch on a little bit and see some things out of it and also just ask you some questions, I think the best place.

David Horsager: Right now, as you’re working with the leadership team there in Madrid and in Toledo let’s just talk about what are you doing for them, how do you actually help them think differently and perform differently, will give us some of what you’re giving them.

David Horsager: Well yeah we’re just not gonna pay for it.

Mark Hunter: Thanks okay I don’t think i’ve been paid by them yet either, so I better watch what I said no, he here’s whole thing.

Mark Hunter: At they’re looking to create some exponential growth we’re all coming out of this pandemic and it’s throwing a lot of business plans up in the air.

Mark Hunter: And they want to create some exponential growth, but what strategies what art Where do they want to go, we sat in a meeting yesterday and i’m not at liberty to reveal the name of the company, but.

Mark Hunter: hey they have too many opportunities, in other words gee we could put resources, here we could put resources there my whole focus and it’s going what I tell salespeople.

Mark Hunter: The most successful salespeople are the ones who are focused the most successful companies are the ones who are focused.

Mark Hunter: And what I told them I said Look, we got to get these distractions off your off the table off the plate, they may be good initiatives 234 or five years down the road, but right now, this is what you have to hone in on, because this is your core competency.

David Horsager: stay inside, how do you decide because i’ve seen people say, well, I guess we’re just as competent at this, and this, and this.

David Horsager: And yet clarity wins, how do you decide your framework for deciding where to go on a priority, or which to focus on.

Mark Hunter: Well sure there’s there’s really three things i’m looking at i’m looking at pat what what do the current customers say what are they say, not what they’re buying what are they say.

Mark Hunter: So i’m going to them for expertise to i’m looking at where the marketplace is going what’s the industry.

Mark Hunter: i’m going to reveal I mean there were seeing sectors of the industry skyrocketing and others into client, so you gotta figure out what and the third one is.

Mark Hunter: What are the capabilities, I have in the organization, right now, one of the things that I stress, with organizations is it’s not about rewriting the playbook it’s not Oh, we got to terminate everybody and no, no, no.

Mark Hunter: let’s work with our existing talent, where is our existing talent.

Mark Hunter: What do they excel at, and when I take those three things and meld them together that’s how we come up with a business plan and a sales strategy because that’s one of the big problems.

Mark Hunter: So many organizations, they come up with a business plan, but they have no sales strategy with how to implement or the sales.

David Horsager: What does a sales strategy look like whether i’m a you know girl scouts selling cookies or i’m a tech firm selling the newest to digital solution, what does a sales strategy look like in basic terms.

Mark Hunter: Well, in basic terms it’s not what you sell the outcomes you create what I want to understand is, what are the outcomes I create.

Mark Hunter: What are the, what are the outcomes that I can I can make a difference in people then i’m going to back up into.

Mark Hunter: The product or the service, whether it be girl scout cookies or SAS because if you think about Why do people buy girl scout cookies do they want them for the calories Oh, I mean, let me tell you.

Mark Hunter: The thin mints they’re still good they’ve been around for years I love them, but we buy them because we’re supporting.

Mark Hunter: we’re supporting an organization, we just it’s it’s the feel good thing and then we wind up buying more boxes.

Mark Hunter: and putting them in a freezer, why do we need them in our freezer know we just feel good it’s that emotional experience you know really girl scout they could sell those anything that we buy it we just happen to like their cookies.

David Horsager: that’s true, and then a cookie that’s an easy sell to you know.

Mark Hunter: It is see this is all thing it’s an easy, sell and this is all thing when you now place that that.

Mark Hunter: Small girl, you know I don’t know 910 1112 years of age who maybe you seen in the neighborhood and she comes up to your door and she says hey my girl scout troop is selling cookies well who’s gonna say no to that.

Mark Hunter: it’s not a question of whether or not you’re going to buy which how many boxes.

David Horsager: Well, no i’m just thinking, this is really based on relationship I just thought about this because I.

David Horsager: When a mom tries to sell me their daughters cookies I don’t want to buy.

David Horsager: When a when they put it on Facebook and somebody whoever.

David Horsager: said, my niece is selling girl scout cookies I don’t want to buy, but when that girl comes and then I want to buy right it’s because that’s relationship and you talk.

Mark Hunter: yeah it’s relationship and emotion and think about this, this is this is at the core of more sales than we ever realized, we like to stop and think that.

Mark Hunter: Oh B2B sales is it’s not emotional Oh, it is oh B2B sales is not relational Oh, it is everything you know I say that that trust is the currency of business you, you have a very similar line, yes, very firmly believe in that.

Mark Hunter: And what does that mean I can’t I can’t create any sale until i’ve created this level of trust mm hmm.

David Horsager: Absolutely, well, I will so let’s just take another step further before ask some other questions like okay i’ve got a sales i’ve got i’m really clear about the outcomes, you know that we offer and it’s here’s the benefits to that person.

David Horsager: let’s say we’re not we don’t have a big history it’s a new product how am I going to start to you know work my way in so least see these great benefits and how they’re better than everybody else and start to buy my special widget.

Mark Hunter: Well, this is where it comes back to i’m going to do any form of beta testing or whatever, to see what is the marketplace going to respond let’s not kid ourselves, nobody makes an investment, I mean, even going back to girl scout cookies.

Mark Hunter: gee you know it’s amazing when they come out with that new cookie yeah you want to buy it, but you you you sample one before you really say oh by.

Mark Hunter: Our case you know, whatever see so i’ve got to be able to find a way to sampling Now this is where so many organizations go wrong.

Mark Hunter: They take the gut feel of what they feel Oh, this is what the marketplace wants no, no, the marketplace has to tell you this from neutral sources, and this is where so many organizations get caught up I see senior management teams.

Mark Hunter: They they they talk themselves into a ladder, this is going to be the best solution, this is it and it’s all because nobody really has the guts to tell the CEO it’s a bad idea.

Mark Hunter: So what happens this idea, Germans and then they go out to the marketplace and it fails, is this, where I come back, I want to see what the marketplaces do.

Mark Hunter: And how does this fit into, and what I call the ideal customer profile ICP if I can’t understand who this fits who this is Taylor to.

Mark Hunter: i’m not going down that path, I don’t care what the organization is it could be, for it could be balling it could be any company, but everybody’s got an ICP the ideal customer profile of who i’m going to sell to.

Mark Hunter: that’s then which it come back and build a business strategy awesome.

David Horsager: love it well clearly you’re into you know, doing the research like just like you’re gonna you’re going to test this product.

David Horsager: And in fact i’m gonna jump in here to page 39 where you talk about you know people, whether they’re measuring the right things, or not you talk about measurements that matter or measurements that count in.

David Horsager: In sales just talking about a couple of those What would you start measuring as far as sales.

Mark Hunter: Well, this is all thing just because you can measure it doesn’t mean it’s worth measuring.

Mark Hunter: I mean a lot of people measure well how many sales calls, did you make, how many phone calls, did you make, I could care less i’m not into.

Mark Hunter: This is going to be a MIC drop i’m, not into the quantity i’m into quality.

Mark Hunter: What I want to measure is what is my speed with which I have a lead come in and I convert it to a customer what’s the speed, what are the number of interactions it’s going to take.

Mark Hunter: What is the percent of those are things i’m concerned about i’m not concerned because too many times what happens is and we see this throughout business we go and measure activity activity has nothing to do with real true productivity, I can be busy, and not do a thing.

David Horsager: Where we see that enough don’t we.

Mark Hunter: Well, we see that in every organization and and what this does is it creates this cloud and what happens is it begins to distort thinking.

Mark Hunter: I talk about a lot about that an organization has to be focused on two things are angie revenue producing or goal focused.

Mark Hunter: And right down to the individual if I wake up in the morning and what i’m doing is not creating a revenue or not helping me achieve my goals Why am I doing it.

Mark Hunter: And yet, when we start looking at organizations and reports that they crank out and systems they look at meetings they have.

Mark Hunter: what’s the meeting for what the meeting is to make management happy all is that really a meaningful goal does that produce revenue, no, so why we have in the meeting.

Mark Hunter: I mean, I could go on and on and on, but so many organizations really have created a process just built on what we did yesterday, and this is where the pandemic or cove it gives us an opportunity to really.

Mark Hunter: wipe the slate clean let’s start over let’s start over and let’s build it up from ground zero is this process even even worthwhile.

Mark Hunter: Is this operation even worth keeping should we keep this facility open, why are we running three ships, maybe we shouldn’t be running one ship.

Mark Hunter: wire we against overtime, maybe having a little bit of overtime would help us minimize the hiring of additional employees don’t know we have to be prepared to look outside the box.

David Horsager: Something I thought was really interesting and you get into it and Chapter 12 was some thoughts around discipline, I feel like in our busy world we have an enormous.

David Horsager: Just an enormous challenge with both focus and discipline and it kind of feeds into what you just said discipline doing the right things, can you just speak to that for our listeners for a moment.

Mark Hunter: Well, this whole thing squirrel squirrel what we get we get distracted so easy sales, people are number one on us, we get distracted and again this comes back to the discipline, I always use this argument.

Mark Hunter: Thinking about getting in shape is not getting in shape I can get a gym membership that doesn’t mean a shake I gotta go and do the repetition I got to go into the gym.

Mark Hunter: This is what discipline discipline is being focused, and this is the activity i’m going to do this is what i’m going to do it.

Mark Hunter: And i’m going to do it every day, you know the book atomic habits, you know came out about a year year and a half ago now.

Mark Hunter: Excellent book, because what is he talking about he’s talking about yes those little things done well, day in and day out month in month out that’s how you make a significant impact.

David Horsager: I love this great stuff great insights one more just thought from your perspective because it catches people off guard a little bit I think and.

David Horsager: We as as far as the book is concerned, and we might talk more about the book, but I think you say something about how social selling is neither social nor selling so you know in this world of social media this and are you doing that oh what What would you fill us in.

Mark Hunter: i’d lost a few friends over it okay i’m just saying just saying.

Mark Hunter: I lost a few friends, yes, because here’s the whole thing.

Mark Hunter: You cannot click and patch Okay, you cannot click and pitch.

Mark Hunter: The key word is social, I want to, I want to get to know you, I want to have a conversation with you so many people have taken their sales strategies and and just today, I mean i’m on linkedin every day.

Mark Hunter: And this is by the way, you’re building relationship you’re on every single day you put a video on linkedin.

Mark Hunter: Every single day I put a video out at six o’clock now I missed this morning and I missed yesterday morning Okay, I apologize i’m in Toledo okay.

Mark Hunter: Anyway, but yeah I put a short video on it here’s here’s what I find I get to three messages eight and all they’re doing is Oh, I look at you know you didn’t look at my profile, they want to sell me something they know hold it hold it.

Mark Hunter: let’s create the relationship first when we create the relation my objective is to take the online connection and turn it into the offline conversation.

Mark Hunter: Okay offline maybe it’s a zoom call maybe it’s teams, whatever but it’s it’s not in context of linkedin that’s what I want to do that’s a meaningful relationship.

David Horsager: Absolutely well One last word from the book from you, your favorite part or why you know one other insight that you would give people to.

David Horsager: You know i’m not just trying to entice people I think you should, but you know what’s one other favorite takeaway from your perspective that people have said that’s one reason that’s That was a takeaway for me from the book.

Mark Hunter: You know it’s funny i’ve never been asked that question before, so I give you props on it here’s the big takeaway that I say sales is not a profession sales is not a job sales is a lifestyle.

Mark Hunter: that’s the big takeaway I take from it, when I changed my attitude about sales and I used to view sales as customers were Bowling pins my objective is to just knock them down take their money, why.

Mark Hunter: that’s not the way to create a salesforce when you begin understanding that sales is a relationship.

Mark Hunter: And then you begin to realize that it really is a lifestyle you look at a top performing salesperson and they’re going to treat the barista in the same way, they do a custom they’re going to treat the person at the C store the same way, they treat a customer.

Mark Hunter: that’s living sales it’s focused first on you, the individual, I want to be able to understand you i’ve worked with CEOs many CEOs over the years and it’s amazing that the CEOs that have the enduring.

Mark Hunter: legacy relationships are the ones who do just that they create relationships that have become legacy.

Mark Hunter: Everybody because they take the time to get to know their team.

David Horsager: I like what you said, because in the book even talking about thinking about your essence thinking about yourself first like for you it’s not not in a selfish way, but in I got to do with me before i’m ever gonna.

Mark Hunter: Ships with them huge huge because, again, this is the ownership, this is the ownership and again you look at real leaders they know how to control themselves.

Mark Hunter: And again, this is one of the fallacies regarding sales and week companies is that they blame everything else they bought you know what, what are the excuse I always say is.

Mark Hunter: Why is their sales, why is their marketing well that’s so each one has someone to blame when they don’t make their numbers.

Mark Hunter: You know, and we don’t, we have to own it own up to it and there will be mistakes that happened there will be issues that come along.

Mark Hunter: But our objective and again this comes back to the whole piece of integrity and I say you know you how you sell how you prospect, and if you do this with integrity, you will get customers who have integrity it’s amazing how you reap what you sow.

David Horsager: yeah absolutely.

David Horsager: of interest what i’ve seen from you that.

David Horsager: You know this is noteworthy from what you said about two and a half minutes ago was just you are.

David Horsager: Big on partnerships i’ve seen you know you run a massive sales conference you partner with a mutual friend of ours, or a few friends, both in mastermind groups and also on.

David Horsager: The you know this weekly show that you do together you’re big on actually live in this House, I know some plenty of people in the trust world they talk about partnering and stuff but they’re like they’re you know it’s kind of funny because.

David Horsager: they’re not a partner, you anyway.

Mark Hunter: Well, I think about that what is an integrity is not done so integrity is done with others.

Mark Hunter: And yes, i’m a firm believer in creating partnerships i’m a firm believer in how can I help you, and this is, this is the whole thing that that I always say I want to create partnerships with one objective I want to help you.

Mark Hunter: Because a rising tide lifts all boats when I help you this goes back to Ziegler you help enough people achieve what they want to achieve and you’ll achieve what you to achieve.

Mark Hunter: It it’s amazing but that’s why i’m continuously trying to find partnerships trying to find ways to be able to to leverage and support and and build into.

Mark Hunter: Other people and in turn creates opportunities, the big conference I do, that is, that as a result, myself and three other individuals and we just decided to dream big and go back.

David Horsager: And it keeps getting bigger.

Mark Hunter: And bigger and bigger yeah.

David Horsager: it’s a big before we land the land, the plane let’s get personal for a little bit you know.

David Horsager: what’s happening now, what are you learning now a lot of people say what do you learn back then, in that research, what do you learn back when you’re writing the book, what are you learning these days.

Mark Hunter: I am learning a huge sense of humility and I really, really entered by my father in law’s going through some real health situations right now.

Mark Hunter: And it’s really causing me to really be much more humble about my own situation need to take care of myself and the need.

Mark Hunter: and the need to really show love and my wife and I we’ve had to make some critical decisions and and I told my wife, that will do whatever whatever you feel is best.

Mark Hunter: Because he’s your funnel and so i’ve had to learn and again this is one of those life is a journey life, every day we learned something new every day and i’m just continually amazed and here’s what I found the more humble, I am the better listener mm hmm.

Mark Hunter: The better listener, I am.

Mark Hunter: The more I hear the needs of the customer, the more I hear the needs of the customer, the better, I can serve them cheap.

Mark Hunter: i’m serving my wife and i’m helping my business hey that’s a perfect moment right.

Mark Hunter: But that’s really what life is all about yeah life is a journey it’s not it’s not a destination.

David Horsager: I don’t know if we can go anywhere up from there, but let’s keep trying that’s a that’s a.

David Horsager: that’s more more humility equals better listener equals better service.

Mark Hunter: yeah but you know it, but that’s what you do I mean I i’ve watched you for years, and you do.

Mark Hunter: This this was funny when this trip first came on my radar screen literally just a week ago and I had some things I had to move and so forth.

Mark Hunter: There was one person, I was not going to call, I was not going to call you because I had made a commitment to you.

Mark Hunter: And because of the integrity and who you are i’m going to figure out a way to make this happen so right now i’m in a hotel room with the camera literally on top of a table on top of the table on top of the garbage can but it’s working okay.

David Horsager: Work and I said you sound great and we’re even doing it in English so.

Mark Hunter: I don’t know Spanish.

Mark Hunter: See so yeah.

David Horsager: So you know, often what i’ve noticed is is leaders like you, that are you know.

David Horsager: Leading you’re you’re a thought leader around the world you’re sharing truth you’re writing you’re doing all these things they seem to have some routines that are helping them.

David Horsager: cells personally stay grounded and be better do you have routines faith family finances with your spouse your wife what what kind of routines.

David Horsager: Do you have that that keep you healthy physically emotionally mentally whatever.

Mark Hunter: yeah I mean I mean i’m up every morning at 430 and by about 440 i’m working out and i’m going for a run by five o’clock.

Mark Hunter: And i’m out of the shower dressed everything before six and then i’m able to spend time with my wife before she goes off to work I have my personal devotions my personal quiet time every morning, right after that.

Mark Hunter: And i’m not looking at email i’m not looking at at at anything i’m taking care of these critical issues first.

Mark Hunter: And then I can begin to Europe but see I can do that, for two reasons hey I just know that I just operate much better that way that’s how i’m grounded would be I prepared my day, the day before I know exactly what i’m going to do.

Mark Hunter: Tell me about so by.

David Horsager: Preparing the day before what’s that look.

Mark Hunter: yeah I mean I know exactly who i’m going to call what i’m going to call about I know all of my all the steps i’m going to see tomorrow begins today I.

Mark Hunter: preach that a lot tomorrow begins today so i’m going to make sure the idea is completely laid out, so I know, and this is all thing I don’t lay it out with 100% of the day, but.

Mark Hunter: I keep white space on my calendar I keep white space, because I want time to just be down, and I also make appointments with myself I tell you, the most important appointment, you can make appointments to yourself, because everybody needs that time just to step back.

Mark Hunter: and think and just stop and it’s amazing when I take that time to just stop and think it’s amazing how suddenly ideas that are rolling around my head suddenly they flush themselves out.

Mark Hunter: Suddenly that’s that’s that’s a great that’s a great something i’ve got to share with this CEO i’m going to share with this car or just be psl.

Mark Hunter: it’s those are the moments that I value the most because it allows me to create, and this is a whole thing as leaders are we paid to execute.

Mark Hunter: Or we paid to really create the next level we’re paid to create the next level, because as leaders if we’re not creating new leaders we’re not doing our job.

Mark Hunter: So I always ask myself, I tell us, and my team my team it’s funny i’ve got two of my team to the people who work for me are in college right now.

Mark Hunter: And they just started back in school both happen to be seniors.

Mark Hunter: And I, and I asked the question hey hey how’s the your goal and I check in with them every week, I want to know how your classes are going, how you doing.

Mark Hunter: But I want to know what are your goals, what are your goals post graduation, yes I want them to join the company full time.

Mark Hunter: But, whatever their goals are I said I want to help you succeed in whatever whatever it is, you want to do it was very interesting, but the other people my company they look at that and they go wow.

Mark Hunter: he’s willing to help somebody leave the company.

Mark Hunter: And what does that make them that they feel that much better, they say i’m glad i’m working with mark i’m glad I get that chance and that’s how you that’s how you demonstrate leadership.

David Horsager: I love it mark to everybody listening where can they find out more about you, your book all the great work you’re doing your big annual event where’s a good place to go.

Mark Hunter: Well, the best way to go, is to the website, the sales hunter calm and people always say what was your name before hunter know I have my dad to thank for that okay that’s that’s been my name since birth.

Mark Hunter: And it’s the sales hunter it’s not sales Center because, unfortunately, when I bought the domain name sales Center was was okay don’t get ads in front of a lot of market research went into that baby.

Mark Hunter: But that’s where you can find it yet and yeah i’m.

Mark Hunter: All over social media but here’s the whole thing yeah.

David Horsager: All that will be in the show notes just for everybody, looking.

David Horsager: tested leaders calm and also just go the sales hunter.com what were you gonna say.

Mark Hunter: Well, I was gonna say I want to give and get people always tell me mark you’re giving away so many things I said that’s fine, I want to keep giving because I can help one person.

Mark Hunter: achieve a little more success than i’ve done my job, you know, and if I do that to enough people don’t reach out my business is good i’m sitting i’m standing here in Toledo, Spain.

David Horsager: last question it’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Mark Hunter: A great a trusted leader, that I really respect is my father and my father passed away 25 years ago.

Mark Hunter: But i’ll tell you what I look at his leadership he was a pastor for years, and he was in state government you’re in prison system for the state of Washington, for a number of years.

Mark Hunter: Then he was in civic he was he was an elected, but I watched him demonstrate integrity and demonstrate things just so clearly never wavered never wavering.

Mark Hunter: I still look back and I think he would be shocked and what i’ve been able to accomplish today.

Mark Hunter: But he is kind of my role model of a leader.

Mark Hunter: I hate to say it, I see too many leaders that people put up on a pedestal and then they do something really stupid.

Mark Hunter: and interesting should.

David Horsager: have that.

David Horsager: yeah.

Mark Hunter: it’s a treat yeah better.

David Horsager: Be your dad because you can you know watch it and you take things i’m grateful, certainly for my dad and leadership he has showed almost.

David Horsager: Two years old now and he’s selling it out so.

Mark Hunter: and see my father passed away way too young but I watched him right up to really the end and.

Mark Hunter: He lived a life of absolutely zero regrets continuously impacting people, this is the whole thing impacting people and it’s funny but I watched him impact people, to the detriment.

Mark Hunter: of our family finances, I mean he was always helping somebody out and whether it be time, whether it be money and I go wow.

Mark Hunter: that’s doing life right.

Mark Hunter: And I never I never saw an ounce I never saw a moment where he regretted what he was doing and I think this is the challenge because.

Mark Hunter: He had goals it tremendous aspirations tremendous did you achieve all know, but you know what he achieved what he was meant to be I mean again it’s just life was built around faith and and I massively respect import.

David Horsager: Excellent well mark, thank you for joining, even from Spain it’s time for you to have some dinner everybody out there, big shout out to mark hunter thanks for being here and to all of you, thanks for joining us on the trusted leader show until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 53: John Foley on Why Debriefs Are Critical To Improving Performance

26 October 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with John “Gucci” Foley, former lead solo pilot of the Blue Angels, Entrepreneur, Leadership Expert, Speaker, and Gratitude Guru, to discuss the importance of creating a culture of gratitude, and why debriefs are critical to improving performance.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

John’s Bio:
John Foley is a former lead solo pilot of the Blue Angels, Sloan Fellow at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business, entrepreneur, venture capitalist, leadership expert, speaker and Gratitude Guru. As a thought leader on high performance, John created the “Glad To Be Here” Mindset Methodology and the Diamond Performance Framework.

As a Blue Angel, John consistently performed in an extreme, high-stakes environment, flying an F-18 at speeds of more than 500 miles per hour and in formations as close as 18 inches apart. To survive in those circumstances, he relied on a culture of high trust and leadership that turned inherently unforgiving flight into extraordinary experiences. His presentations inspire individuals, teams and organizations around the world to reach their highest potential while sustaining excellence under dynamic change.

For decades, John has shared his exciting, rare journey with audiences around the world, becoming one of the most in-demand leadership and performance experts. John has spoken on 5 continents, 20 countries and over 1000 events working with some of the world’s top organizations.

John graduated from the US Naval Academy with a BS in Mechanical Engineering and was a defensive back for the Midshipmen. He was chosen as “Top Ten Carrier Pilot” six times before becoming an F/A-18 Instructor Pilot.

He holds three master’s degrees: MA in National Security & Strategic Studies from the Naval War College, Stanford Master of Science in Management, as a Sloan fellow from Stanford Graduate School of Business and MA in International Policy Studies from Stanford University. John was also a Fellow at Stanford Center on International Conflict and Negotiation and was awarded an honorary PhD from UNAM, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.

As the founder of the Glad To Be Here Foundation, he and his wife Carol have donated over 1.9 million dollars to over 347 charities worldwide and sponsor children in 47 countries.

John’s Links:
Website: https://www.johnfoleyinc.com/
“Fearless Success” by John Foley: https://amzn.to/3pu6smu
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JohnGucciFoley/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/johnguccifoley
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnfoleyinc/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnguccifoley/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfynkNlSOFPOCQLLoTPXUIg

Key Quotes:
1. “You want people that are committed and bought in.”
2. “The key to execution is trust.”
3. “You need an own it and fix it mentality.”
4. “You need a culture of gratitude.”
5. “It always starts inwards.”
6. “Today’s not normal. Today’s magical.”
7. “Every day has the opportunity to be magical.”
8. “Don’t be afraid to ask for help.”
9. “You need to have structure and trust.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Fearless Success” by John Foley: https://amzn.to/3pu6smu

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a very special friend and guest with me today.

David Horsager: He has become a friend, he was the lead solo pilot of the blue angels he’s a fellow at Stanford university’s graduate school sloan.

David Horsager: School he is you know he he went to the war college naval war college the Academy, but i’m telling you 18 inches apart flying those F 18 that’s unbelievable, among other things, welcome to the show john foley.

johnfoley: David, I am deeply glad to be here and, as you know that message means something very special to me, and I hope, by the end of the show everybody knows what that means, but i’m grateful to be on your show you are amazing person you’re reaching so many people i’m very honored.

David Horsager: Well i’ll tell you what if if anybody on this show over last however many interviews aligns with trust it’s you and you and I even say it.

David Horsager: In our business, we want to, we want to know people that are the same offstage as they are, are on stage and you’re amazing on stage but you’re even more amazing offstage.

David Horsager: He also is the author of fearless success we’re going to talk about that, just a little bit.

David Horsager: And some other things, he said clients from Mercedes to IBM, and you know john let’s get into it a little bit I mean i’ve gotta jump to first of all, he.

David Horsager: amazing story family life, and all this, but what is it like you’re at what mock point you know six five and you’re 18 inches away from the you know the other airplane what was that, like leading the blue angels.

johnfoley: Well, first off I wasn’t the LEADER I was the lead solo pilot, but when you’re flying that close to another jet, let me tell you, David, you can see the cracks in the pain.

johnfoley: Of the aircraft next year, can you imagine this I mean how many of us have driven even close enough to a car to see the cracks that have paid.

johnfoley: Doing this 500 miles per hour like you said, point six five mark right and and i’ll tell you what number one it’s.

johnfoley: Because i’m just reliving it the little hairs are standing up on the back of my neck they hairs on my arm, you can see that they’re starting to tingle because I realized what it felt like to be that close and you know the whole key is what you talk about it’s all about trust.

David Horsager: How do you do it, how do you build trust i’m fascinated by men things you do everything from debriefing to you know to how you build trust, from the beginning, but how do you you’ve got how many planes in the air generally.

johnfoley: at once there’s six of us.

David Horsager: six of us, and of course you’ve had all this experience ahead of that, but this is kind of the toward the end of your career right you’re.

David Horsager: you’re a DEMO angel solo lead pilot tell us what that was like to even you jump on and give us a little two minute story here of that process to building trust before your then flying 18 inches inches apart at 500 miles an hour.

johnfoley: yeah great Let me give you a quick background for everybody, so.

johnfoley: You know, as a naval fighter pilot flew off aircraft carriers was in the movie top gun, you know, by the way, top guns coming out again right, but so my buddies did all the.

johnfoley: The new fly, but I did the old flying, then you become an instructor pilot and that’s where we get our blue angels from usually the instructor ranks something like top gun they call it the fleet replacement squad and these other areas right because we want somebody.

johnfoley: who’s not only highly skilled and gifted at what they do that’s just a given right.

johnfoley: We need people who are going to fit the chemistry has to be right, the purpose has to be right, why are they there I call it a purpose largest self it’s not even about the flying.

johnfoley: We it’s really about inspiring greatness and other individuals, you know, when I look at a see the little kids eyes when I go to the crowd line afterwards that’s my real job I just happened to be doing airplanes to inspire somebody so anyhow.

johnfoley: The idea of the selection processes, we want the right people in the right seats, the right team right and go.

David Horsager: away yeah, how do you figure out chemistry like this is something like if people are listening right leaders are listening like.

David Horsager: Man i’ve hired I thought that sales person is the right person I thought that CEO is right and what do we find I just read something recently that.

David Horsager: people get hiring wrong about with with and without assessments and all these other things right they they try all these so you got a hiring decision you got this and yet people get hiring wrong about 50% of the time.

johnfoley: yeah well.

David Horsager: How do you figure out chemistry for something like this.

johnfoley: yeah and i’m in the same boat in my company here, you know i’ve done some great hires and some that didn’t work out and so here’s the key right and what we did on the blues.

johnfoley: Is we we hired slow right and I you’ve heard that a lot right hire slow fire fast whatever, but the point is here is that it’s about a year long process, so we were always looking ahead.

johnfoley: right if you were going to replace one of our one of the six pilots, by the way we replaced three of them every year, so how would you like this challenge leaders out there, half of your leadership team half years, your key people.

johnfoley: You have to replace every year because it’s not that they’re leaving or you’re firing them that’s what we call the rotation in the navy every three years, you get a new job in the blue angels every two years, so we’re constantly bringing in.

johnfoley: New people into the dynamics of the organization that’s why your training is so important, see.

johnfoley: The way you do this is you build a culture, and you have this culture of excellence and and and it sustains any individual but back to your training question real quick is.

johnfoley: We do the standard stuff right we actually asked for people to come to us, we don’t ask we don’t go out to them so that’s an interesting difference right.

johnfoley: The blue angels have a have a have a brand so people want to be there, so they’re they’re coming to us right.

johnfoley: Then we do the typical application process three letters of recommendation from your commanding officers.

johnfoley: What you’re really looking for, though, is that’s just getting in the door right do they have the the background, what we really selected on.

johnfoley: Was we actually invited people to come to our show, these are the applicants they actually get to sit in on the briefs not the debriefs Okay, we can talk about that why that’s different all right.

johnfoley: And there were trying to show them, this is what you’re signing up for.

johnfoley: Okay, this is the real deal behind the scenes right, and then we get to observe them and what i’m trying to observe is of course they’re going to treat me well, or any of the other pilots, I want to know how are they treating the crowd line.

johnfoley: How are they treating the kids How are they treating my troops and so we’re observing them at the end of the day, what we do, David is we.

johnfoley: We brings finalists in the pensacola we have a week long formal interview process where we get to know them they get to know us.

johnfoley: And then, at the end of the day we vote okay and you’re voting on your your heart, not just your head, of course, you know if we have what we call a no way, which means if somebody.

johnfoley: Just doesn’t connect they can call a no way on somebody and then they’re not going to be on the team, but that’s very rare because you don’t want to do that to somebody so what you’re really looking for is what’s in their heart.

johnfoley: Not just what’s in their head, are they aligned with our core values and and the answer your question is it takes a little time and you got to get to know them I hire on intuition more than on on surveys, or that other stuff.

David Horsager: Right well here’s the problem we have today, we could talk all day and everybody would be on the edge of their seat listening to you and all the wisdom, you have it all the amazing experiences, you have.

David Horsager: So we’re going to have to have you back i’ve never brought anybody back when i’m making a commitment today.

David Horsager: yeah you.

David Horsager: got to have commander fully back hey let’s jump because you touched on, I wasn’t going to go there, but everybody get get the book.

David Horsager: fearless success john fully here, it is, but let’s go to page 20 really quick this quick just just a teaser overview.

David Horsager: Of this four step process, because you bet you’ve continued now in your company’s you speak all over the world, you train all over the world.

David Horsager: You know, five continents and 20 countries or more whatever.

David Horsager: you’ve got this process of belief brief trust and debrief just you know we can’t go into the whole book, but I was fascinated by this process because you know when we have the right frameworks, we start to.

David Horsager: build trust we start to be able to be more consistent, give us a little this you call it the diamond performance framework that was inspired in part by what you did at the blue angels tell us.

johnfoley: yeah absolutely you know, we had the rare privilege David to speak over 1500 organizations now you know, over a million people.

johnfoley: have been inspired by this and that book is basically my experience as a Blue Angel but after I went to Stanford Business School.

johnfoley: And after I worked with a bunch of companies, probably over 1000 of them I said what’s the connection.

johnfoley: What worked in this very elite high performance organization and how do you transfer that at back into the real world right so we’re really came from David was I remember being in strategic management theory at Stanford.

johnfoley: And the Professor was talking about the the vision plan execute the.

johnfoley: Feedback loop vision plan execute feedback right and I said Okay, I get that right, but I realized that in the in the highest performing teams and organizations.

johnfoley: We actually do a little bit more than that that’s the fundamentals right, and so what that but that framework is that you showed everybody.

johnfoley: Is is the next level right and what it is, instead of about vision, I like to talk about beliefs.

johnfoley: You know how do you get commitment and buy in to a vision, because that’s what we want, as leaders.

johnfoley: You want people committed and bought in so where our belief, sometimes we skip that step, then the next one to brief what I call it a cadence of execution, which is this brief debrief process right.

johnfoley: Are you but really the brief is not about planning it’s about preparation and focus So how do you bring your a game every single day.

johnfoley: How do you get teams aligned to the Center point concept, how do you you, you get yourself and i’ve been talking a lot about lately personal mastery.

johnfoley: Because you know we’ve been through a lot of challenges, all of us all right, how do you wake up every morning what’s the rituals you do, how do you get.

johnfoley: You know yourself completely focused like I did on the blue angels, but then the key is and what you talk about some well.

johnfoley: And by the way, I learned from you every single day I love what you’re doing.

johnfoley: is the key to execution is trust you know that, and I know that and so that’s the part of the of the framework where you go from the.

johnfoley: being focused and and and and then into execution through high trust contracts, by the way, I call them high trust contracts or covenants.

johnfoley: What I found at the highest level for high trust it’s not the written ones it’s not the esop it’s not all that kind of stuff it’s verbal and nonverbal agreements i’ll give you one real quick David your people will be blown away.

johnfoley: Lead so quiet thumper and myself i’m the lead thumpers my opposing we come at each other at 1000 miles per hour closer cross within a wingspan if we’re one second off we’re going to miss by two football fields.

johnfoley: And you know how we did that was with verbal trust agreements, yes, we had an esop yes we practice, yes, we trained, but at the end of the day.

johnfoley: I told thumper every day, every day, I looked him in the eye or we got on the phone you know if there’s virtual now.

johnfoley: I said dumper, you can count on me i’m going to count on you so i’ll be on the flight line I won’t be you know five foot left or five foot right the flight line, by the way, is not the runway is the onboard edge.

johnfoley: i’ll make the timing corrections i’ll give you the command execute a full stick deflection roll you my teammate have one job miss me that’s it.

johnfoley: You know biggest game of chicken you ever play, but it wasn’t David because we had this discipline and focus and that’s why what you’re teaching and what we can do out there is, how do you create high trust.

johnfoley: environments, how do you create high trust companies and then, once you have that trust and you’re executing the fourth facet of that framework is the debrief which I think is the most important part because that’s the learning loop.

johnfoley: that’s where we go back in the room, and we talked about not only what went well, but what we could do better, and we re established beliefs and trust and it’s a spiraling up process.

David Horsager: By the way, I want to touch on this debrief process because i’m so.

David Horsager: i’m so impressed by it, because it seems like you know there’s such a humility in this, you know you look at top gun it’s like the high ego where the top guns blah blah, but you come in.

David Horsager: There there’s a humility of saying hey I did this wrong, I admit my mistakes, we need to do this differently, and I think I just also read something in the midst of the pandemic, where a doctors are going to.

David Horsager: Or at least in some institution going to learning from this process.

David Horsager: yeah because.

David Horsager: You know a lot of doctors they’re afraid of lawsuits right.

David Horsager: So what do they do, they don’t admit mistakes, how come, you know you sold that person up with an extra scalpel in well i’m not going to admit that now i’m going to get you know.

David Horsager: Insurance whatever so an insurance claim So how do we make safe places so when people debrief they can admit, so that, for the good of all so people actually learn from mistakes, instead of keep sewing another scalpel and someone after they have heart surgery right.

johnfoley: Now, with you, David you actually were working a lot in the healthcare space, these days, the good news is it’s not as bad as what you just mentioned Okay, but but, but the key is because you know that’s kind of.

David Horsager: Obvious right right and, of course.

johnfoley: And that stuff happens, but what you’re mentioning is really is really critical and it’s, not only in healthcare.

johnfoley: But in every organization, so what I like to say is there’s five dynamics that you need to have in order to have an effective debrief Okay, which is your learning loop, which is going to make you.

johnfoley: The best company, you can be right in your best people, the first is, and you mentioned it, you need a safe environment.

johnfoley: And when I mean it’s safe environment i’m not just talking to physically safe environment heck you and I know there’s all kinds of PPP and all that the pee pee and all the protection that we’re doing i’m talking more about a psychologically safe environment.

johnfoley: So that’s built on respect So my first pillar is respect okay on the on the on the safe environment, the second one is what you mentioned.

johnfoley: And it’s humility, but I like to call it check your ego at the door Okay, because what we said on the blue angels, and in any high performance organization is a course you good we wouldn’t hire you right.

johnfoley: it’s not about you it’s about we all right, so I don’t care who’s right or wrong, I just want.

johnfoley: I want the the best result for in this case the patient or the organization so humility is key that’s one of our hiring, by the way, qualities we’re looking for that all right.

johnfoley: This the third one is openness and honesty and so I call that lay it on the table.

johnfoley: So I want an environment where you can have these open and honest communications where you’re not fear based and afraid the fourth one is the is the accountability piece.

johnfoley: But I like to move that to personal responsibility, and I say you need to own IT and fix it mentality.

johnfoley: And and that’s the ownership mount mentality that says i’m not just going to work in my silo i’m going to own the outcome.

johnfoley: And that means I have to integrate with everybody, but but David So those are the first four and and that’s great, but the fifth one is is the most critical one.

johnfoley: And that’s glad to be here, by the way, you need a culture of gratitude, that is what changes this from which sometimes can be a negative process, you know, because you are looking at.

johnfoley: What could we do better, you are identifying small things before they come big things.

johnfoley: But when you do this within what I call glad to be here, which is this gratefulness this appreciation, then it becomes a really positive experience and and and David that glad to be here debrief.

johnfoley: That is going to change the world and that’s my passion, I want to get this out to every organization, we can because that’s what’s going to change the dial and that’s what’s going to impact people and make it a spiraling up process.

David Horsager: How do you do that, how do you cultivate we can talk about this on anything accountability responsibilities but.

David Horsager: yeah, how do you help, how do you help create a glad to be here I mean I feel like a.

David Horsager: You know it’s it’s almost hiring right there too, because some people don’t don’t seem to be glad to be anywhere i’m grateful, we have a relatively new employee and she yes to just singing i’m glad to be or something like that.

David Horsager: You know, but, but he brings this positive like hey I like to be here i’m i’m bringing positive.

David Horsager: This fifth point that you have the most important you say it’s like that people feel like they’re they want to be there, but how do you cultivate that, how do you how do you.

David Horsager: You know, is there is there, something you can do, or we can do, or is it just on the hiring people that are going to be glad to be there.

johnfoley: Now that it’s both I think it’s three things first Gandhi said it best right be the change, you want to see in the world, so number one any leader out there that we’re talking to.

johnfoley: it’s not about out there, you know it’s about into here right, am I glad to be here do I exude that every day, do I wake up, I wake up, but I have a morning routine I do a gratitude wake up every single morning okay.

johnfoley: Do I exude that I love my job i’m making a difference in people’s lives so number one it starts always starts inward right.

johnfoley: And and number two, though, is then you have to build the culture, so that the answer is always culture right and that is what is the culture of your organization and anytime you bring new people in and we’re bringing two new people in just like you did.

johnfoley: there’s the standard, you know I remember at Stanford again with this everyone knows, this is the forming storming Norman performing thing right.

johnfoley: Okay, and so yeah so we’re reforming there’s going to be some storming because people are reselling in what do we do it, I want that new energy okay.

johnfoley: yeah we’re going to start to norm, this is not only how we do and that’s on the blue angels is critical is I show that there’s there’s a way to do this it’s not you know hypothetical and then you get into the performing thing.

johnfoley: So I guess what I like to say, David and what we do and we work with with our clients first thing I gotta do is paint the picture.

johnfoley: You know you got to paint the picture of what this looks like what is a high performance.

johnfoley: Excellent trusting culture look like and fortunately i’ve got video from when I was on the team and we’re not only talking about flying but we go into these briefs we go into the debriefs and you get to see those words.

johnfoley: come to life and now people go wait a minute.

johnfoley: These are these you know top gun Blue Angel pilots, you know and and will cut humble, they are look at that guy just admitted that mistake that Why would Why would he do that, why would she do that.

johnfoley: And so you paint the picture, then we got to activate it within every organization because there’s always that bridge.

johnfoley: You know how can you make it real to them and then here’s the fun part, then, then you sustain it and it’s a growing learning organization, just like you teach every single time.

David Horsager: You tell me about this, you mentioned your gratitude wake up.

David Horsager: what’s that like.

johnfoley: Oh, for me, it’s simple okay so i’ll just give you this morning right so very first thing i’ve done is i’ve trained my brain to wake up happy, I mean how cool is that.

johnfoley: Right, I mean how cool is that that you I wake up happy every single day and the right, you can do this, you can actually train your brain, we know that there’s neuro you know plasticity and all these kinds of things so it’s very simple three steps first thing I do is.

johnfoley: very first thing I do when I wake up is I say what am I grateful for, in the present moment So for me today i’m home i’m in Sun valley i’m actually right after this.

johnfoley: is done taping i’m jumping on an airplane and go into a client event i’m glad the live events are are really kicking off now but i’m just number one i’m home with my wife.

johnfoley: We got a new dog we just by the way we just rescued a new rhodesian ridgeback and she’s awesome right so i’m just what I do is I check into my own heart and say what am I grateful for, in the present moment.

johnfoley: And sometimes that’s just being alive, you know, then when they do is I go back here’s here’s a really kind of cool technique I go back 24 hours.

johnfoley: And I say what happened yesterday that I have something to be grateful for, and I actually review my day in my head right now i’m doing this, while i’m while i’m laying down or in the shower you can do this anytime right and very quickly, I say.

johnfoley: Oh, you know well yesterday hey we just brought on russ our new team Member, we had a great call with him and the onboarding is going well, had this great call with this client, you know about how we’re going to actually implement.

johnfoley: Our teachings and then I thought more about you know, but I went I went outside we paddleboard I took my wife, it was her birthday yesterday.

johnfoley: And, two days ago, and so we went up to this lake and paddleboard but here’s the deal i’m actually reliving the feeling in my heart right.

johnfoley: i’m trying to relive that experience and we had this beautiful dinner with some friends last night and it’s more about giving them receiving right.

johnfoley: So then, then the third step, very quickly, David is go forward in your day and think about others not just yourself, so I thought about you, I said, you know I said.

johnfoley: In about Neil five hours i’m going to be have the rare privilege and, by the way, I think it’s a privilege to be with you and your audience.

johnfoley: to share that with people, I just want to show up with my best self and then I got to do a fun thing I.

johnfoley: You know I got to sign 120 books here right before our call because i’ve got an event and every time I sign a book I say thank you to myself in my head.

johnfoley: You know that i’m just grateful, thank you to this person and and that’s it I do, that every single morning usually takes me about four or five minutes, but I call it my glad to be here wake up and.

johnfoley: You know it changes it just watch don’t, believe me, anyone who’s out there just try it and you watch how it changes your life.

David Horsager: glad to be here wake up, I love it speaking of that you know I see, I mean this is a That was a key example of what i’m going to ask next but i’m just thinking about the great leaders i’m around they tend to have routines like this, like that routine, they tend to have.

David Horsager: great consistency.

David Horsager: you’re leading a lot of others you’re an example to many, many, many others, what do you what other things do you do as a routine to stay healthy physically mentally emotionally mentally you know what what are some other routines you have, in the midst of your crazy schedule.

johnfoley: yeah i’m glad you brought that up because it’s not just that wake up That takes me four or five minutes.

johnfoley: I I hit my knees I pray you know that’s The next thing I jump out of bed i’m always get up out of bed at my left foot, first because it tells me that to remind myself today’s not normal today’s magical right every day, I believe, has the opportunity to be magical.

johnfoley: Then I go outside, so the very first thing I do, I put on the tea pot, you know and and then while it’s boiling I go outside and I do a physical routine and it’s it’s very quick it takes me about five to seven minutes.

johnfoley: And it’s a it’s a routine that i’m happy to show your your people someday but it’s involves a navy seal workout with this yoga.

johnfoley: And stretching routine right, and so I do this routine and and I can knock it out in seven minutes so there’s no excuse not to do it right, I can actually knock it out in four minutes so there’s no excuse not to do it.

johnfoley: right but it gets my energy so there’s the mind and the body that i’m trying to connect here right and then like you said.

johnfoley: You know, I have a lot of routines I do through day I check in with my team, we have Monday morning briefings and that’s the.

johnfoley: about an hour meeting where we’re where we’re aligning we’re getting priority set.

johnfoley: Every day we have a very quick stand up meeting a check in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and then Friday is our debrief and that’s the most powerful day we take about 90 minutes but it’s the most joyful because we’re celebrating our victories.

johnfoley: we’re also addressing challenges that it came up and we’re getting ready for the next week so that’s a very structured routine that works incredibly well with any organization and you can adapt it right.

johnfoley: And, and then, when it comes to my spirituality and personal life, you know, David I was just doing a webinar.

johnfoley: With this organization, you know we’re talking we’ve done 63 weeks in a row with them now we’re just continuing it’s on a weekly basis and we just talked about don’t be afraid to ask for help.

johnfoley: Because there’s a lot of stress going on out there, right now, there’s a lot, not just with the coven and the pandemic, but all these things, and you know that CEO has 13.

johnfoley: therapists and counselors available for their people for the next five weeks, they get five weeks of.

johnfoley: therapy if they want it and it’s not just therapy at someone to talk to.

johnfoley: And you know what I do that too, I actually have a personal not only coach but almost like a therapist who I talked to I work with my wife and I.

johnfoley: We go to a marriage counselor, not because we have a bad marriage, we have a good marriage, but I want a great marriage so i’m out there, looking you know always seeking experts who can help me get better and then i’d like to pass that on to others.

David Horsager: You know that is that is humility that blocks so many people saying hey i’ve got something good I want a great I I take feedback here, I have a marriage counselor or therapist have a coach it, I mean an act of humility that hey we know we don’t know it all we need to keep getting better.

David Horsager: yeah do you one question on your on your process here.

David Horsager: Do you you’re traveling a fair bit like I am often at least What do you do with these stand up meetings, and you know debriefs in that when you can’t do be there, someone else lead them, how do you do it.

johnfoley: yeah absolutely because I don’t want to be the linchpin actually I want my team to lead those meetings, and you know to be straight with you it’s an evolving process right we’re learning from each other.

johnfoley: I like to be there on the morning and Fridays these meetings are highly important you don’t miss Okay, we schedule around them okay.

johnfoley: And you know so i’m on those and, by the way, it’s a great check in it’s not just information that’s exchange your it’s a leadership moment you’re connecting with your people right but Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday yeah let I let my team do that.

David Horsager: And they just check in so what how many minute 10 minute check in five minutes I can here’s the top goal today how you’re doing.

johnfoley: yeah yeah it should be as short as possible that’s why, like in some companies call them stand up meetings so something you can do in the stand up, so you know five to 10 minutes depends what’s going on that day, but it’s just an alignment process yep.

Great.

David Horsager: Alright well wow a lot covered in a short time which I knew what happened lots more we get asked there’s a I think anything, what are you learning right now, you know we got a lot of people will learn stuff in the past, well anything top of mind right now that you’re keeping learning.

johnfoley: Well, you know what’s really cool is i’ve got a bunch of now that I say or or some core values I wake up every morning I say.

johnfoley: Learn grow and give and then I realized, I had the actual order wrong David it starts with giving so you go give learn and grow, so I am absolutely in this pursuit of how do I.

johnfoley: Give first and to me that’s this give back right now just being on your show you and I share so much time together we give to each other and we’re giving to the people who are listening to this, so I want to give first all right.

johnfoley: Then I want to learn i’ve learned from you.

johnfoley: Especially in our call before this as we’re talking about how things are going right and i’m sharing right, and then I want to grow.

johnfoley: And I want to grow in any way I can so what we’re learning and growing the most with right now is just what we talked about how do you build a high performance team.

johnfoley: Right and how do you take that team, which is not just the recruiting and the hiring process, how do you take that team to the next level.

johnfoley: And that involves what we’ve been talking about but i’m learning from other people every day I learned from my clients every day that’s why I love.

johnfoley: To work with organizations, because every time like i’m leaving on the airplane like I said in a in a few minutes and.

johnfoley: This group it’s a consulting group and they use the the the entrepreneurial operating system eos.

johnfoley: And i’ve heard about that, before and I said oh really tell me about that and it’s a lot of it is this structural piece that we’re talking about here, because I think you need to have some structure.

johnfoley: And then trust right, you need both, and when you have that.

johnfoley: You get breakthrough performance and that’s why what you do and I keep saying it because i’m not just pumping you up I believe what you’re doing is changing organizations and you’re changing people’s lives and that’s what we all want to do.

David Horsager: that’s absolutely that’s our hope right the mission develop trusted leaders and organizations around the world well that’s a taste of john fully before I give you the final question john tell us where can we find more about you, also known as Gucci.

David Horsager: Gucci I didn’t.

johnfoley: Stop if you want, you know depth of stuff just go to my website john foley Inc COM fully.

johnfoley: I nc calm, you know we just launched a new website it’s only been up for like a week and a half, so a lot of cool videos on there, a lot of cool stuff the very first thing you could do is sign up for our content right and we put out not not just a weekly connection.

johnfoley: But actually I put out these really cool impact videos once a week only about a minute minute half but they’re constantly on these themes and so there’s lots of that’s the number one way just be part of our Community.

johnfoley: Because, just like you, we got constantly new information we’re sharing, but then there’s social right I got a whole social media team marketing team, you can find me under john Gucci.

johnfoley: By the way, gucci’s my call sign fully and on the Net, when you have any back, we can, maybe talk about how you how I got that which I can tell you I didn’t pick and I didn’t.

johnfoley: Like it that’s why it’s stuck right.

johnfoley: Okay, of course, but but john Gucci foley you know of course linkedin and we’re doing really cool stuff on instagram you know Facebook Twitter we’re actually on all the platforms and it’s very unique so just coming become engaged, you know.

johnfoley: best way yeah any of that.

David Horsager: john Gucci foley here we go hey last question, my friend, we both have something we’ve got to be at but we’ve got to finish this way because it’s a trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

johnfoley: Well it’s simple and i’ve heard you tell you this story too it’s my dad you know I mean whenever I hear that factor emotional because.

johnfoley: You know you made me think of him, and you know he’s passed away and that’s Okay, because we really he gave me everything.

johnfoley: A child would want you know, he was the example of integrity, you know I didn’t need to have a definition.

johnfoley: Just looked at my dad you know, he was the example of love with my mom they had you know together it wisdom, you know if I ever went to wisdom.

johnfoley: heck just go talk to my dad you know was really cool and so.

johnfoley: it’s so simple and.

johnfoley: And I always can fall back on that and I had the rare privilege to be with him when he passed, you know with cancer and some stuff.

johnfoley: And that was a real privilege to really get to know him, both when he was strong and when he was challenged and he was a leader in both those situations so yeah that’s the that’s the go to my dad love.

David Horsager: Nothing else to add to that hey, thank you for being on today, thank you for sharing with our trusted leader audience thank even more for being my friend that’s the trusted leader show today until next time stay trusted.

Ep. 52: Annie Meehan on How To Make Happy, Healthy, And Hopeful Cultures

19 October 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Annie Meehan, Speaker, Author, and Consultant, to discuss how to be the exception, and how leaders can make happy, healthy, and hopeful cultures.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Annie’s Bio:
With an enthusiastic delivery guaranteed to inspire, enlighten and energize, Annie Meehan mesmerizes audiences with a clear message that spurs listeners to break counterproductive patterns. As a widely embraced international speaker, she has helped legions transform themselves from a life of ‘muddling along’ to one of sustained focus that showcases success after success. As an expert on living an Exceptional life, Meehan will be the catalyst to motivate your audience members to obliterate any and all roadblocks that stand in their way. Countless testimonials reveal the “wow” factor that Meehan creates at every presentation, which in turn catapults participants to adopt the practical tools she champions for more impactful lives both personally and professionally.

With a client roster that boasts corporations, associations, and non-profit organizations, Meehan provides actionable strategies to strategically manage change, recognize the enormous power of words in person-to-person exchanges, and eliminate long-held excuses that keep people from attaining their goals. Her passion and charismatic essence engage people in new and exciting ways, which ignites people to seize a more enriching and fulfilled path forward.

Prior to becoming a professional motivational speaker, Meehan worked for a financial investment company for nine years, where she (not sure I understand what compiling multiple promotions means) compiled multiple promotions. After leaving the corporate arena, she ventured into the entrepreneurial realm where she owned and operated two fitness franchise locations and built a successful direct sales team of 250+ people. It was then Meehan began touting the message of health and wellness. Meehan is a National Speakers Association (NSA) board member and also a past president of the NSA’s Minnesota chapter.

She is the author of five motivational books, including her award-winning “Be The Exception.” Her latest book, “Pineapple Principle,” offers a sweet journey to empowerment.

Meehan has three adult children, and she lives in a Minneapolis suburb with her husband and two dogs. She loves volunteering in the community, traveling with family, and walking (or being walked) with Peanut and Leo.

Annie’s Links:
Website: https://www.anniemeehan.com/
“Be The Exception” by Annie Meehan: https://amzn.to/3FLyxem
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/annielmeehan/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anniemeehan/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meehan.annie/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/annienoexcuses
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnW5sW2r7QI&ab_channel=AnnieMeehan

Key Quotes:
1. “Every leader should have a coach.”
2. “Don’t do more, be more.”
3. “Look back for proof to keep looking forward with hope.”
4. “Whatever you look for you will find.”
5. “One of the sweetest things that you can give another human is to really listen to them.”
6. “Being grateful gives you a good life, but being generous gives you a great life.”
7. “I’m blessed to be a blessing.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Be The Exception” by Annie Meehan: https://amzn.to/3FLyxem
“The Pineapple Principle” by Annie Meehan: https://amzn.to/3vbZ1AX
Blue Bell Creameries: https://www.bluebell.com/

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a dear friend, with me today welcome Annie Meehan.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Well, so happy to be here thanks David for having me.

David Horsager: It is a treat to have you and Annie has written five books, she has her CSP she is just a what this is this the one thing I remember about you, especially you said I love the middle seat on an airplane.

David Horsager: Right I love to be around people I love to connect with people so i’m thinking, the pandemic has been not so good for you, but but anyway.

David Horsager: She she’s owned fitness franchises she’s built a very successful direct sales team over time and and a host of other things, but she’s a real human being, that brings a lot of positivity in the midst of.

David Horsager: Some pain in your life so we’re going to get to it and we’re going to see you’re influencing you know leaders around the world, but i’m just.

David Horsager: Grateful you’re here here, maybe have one or two things there’s so much of you, but just, you know as far as to you as a person, but but um you know what’s something you might want to add that nobody knows or few people know about endymion.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Well, a couple people know but I i’m a Midwest girl who was originally born in California, but I live here longer getting ready to move to Florida, but.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I love influencing leaders I love when you said that I was like yeah that that is my joy, so I love to laugh I love to look for the silver lining and help other people find it that’s probably one of my favorite things and the middle seat David yes option to make two friends.

David Horsager: yeah that’s right.

David Horsager: And you make friends wherever you go i’m going to jump right in here and use.

David Horsager: A headset it was Okay, and I was very moved by your story and we’re going to get to some takeaways from your books and.

David Horsager: And some of the things you’re thinking about these days as far as culture and, as you know, we’re big on that our whole of you know, driving high trust culture is is is what we’re about in organizations, but.

David Horsager: I think, to start personally it just is something to hear your story, you were given a big award this year in our industry, and you can put some more letters behind your name and i’ll never forget, you saying you know growing up, you were known because of other letters ADHD dyslexia and.

Annie Meehan – CSP: add a.

David Horsager: ged you’re right.

David Horsager: Because you didn’t graduate right off, so you know you’ve moved at sometimes by the time you’re 18 years old, tell us what overcoming some of those things, and I know there’s more to it, but what how did that shape you as a leader today.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Absolutely it’s probably one of my driving forces that the first 20 years of my life will really sad really hard.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I can look at them and feel sorry for myself or I can look at them and ask myself that question what’s the silver lining.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Well, moving that much taught me about change taught me about adapting taught me about resilience, how to make new friends, how to get lost and find my way and.

Annie Meehan – CSP: That the sadness of the first 20 years of my life we didn’t move because i’m a military we move kinds of mental illness and being raised the middle child of a single mom with seven kids.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I there was so much pain and part of what drives me is that I know other people hurt in this world, they hurt professionally and they hurt personally.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And they don’t always have the skills and so learning from the pain of the first 20 years of my life, makes me really always work daily on.

Annie Meehan – CSP: How can I be better, what can I do better to heal on an ongoing basis and not there it’s a lifelong journey for me.

Annie Meehan – CSP: To keep working on being a better version of myself of seeking on what is good in the midst of the hard stuff that i’ve gone through and that I watch other organizations and individuals go through.

David Horsager: we’re helping people these days you’ve done be the extension.

David Horsager: be the exception you’ve talked about the pineapple principle and some of these other great books, we might come back around to the first one, I said but let’s go to what you’re working on right now.

David Horsager: i’m big on what are you learning now right a lot So what do you learn in the past, what are you learning now and H3 has become a big theme for you tell us about it.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah so H3 cultures came over the last year I realized, you know what what people really need right now is health hope and happiness.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I identified with what it feels like to be unhealthy I identify with what it feels like to be hopeless and what it feels like to be completely unhappy, and so I started to go back and look at how can I show.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Organizations how to bring hope hope and happiness and when people are struggling with stress anxiety fear all the changes and the challenges.

Annie Meehan – CSP: As leaders or individuals, how do we bring that in and so H3 cultures, I thought that’s what we really need right now, so I started working on that keynote.

Annie Meehan – CSP: It is a book in the process, I don’t think it’ll come up until next year.

Annie Meehan – CSP: But showing people some tips and tools individually, but more collectively as a company, you know what can you implement in the workplace meditation I love delta airlines added a couple of.

Annie Meehan – CSP: meditation to their podcasts that you can listen to on the flight they know people are having anxiety so that’s something I meditation.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yoga a water contest, to be a little healthier, how do we deal with anxiety in instead of shaming people recognize that their well being matters.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And so that’s what I talked to companies about what are you doing to recognize, not just to just say get back to work, but how are we supporting our teams in dealing with anxiety and fear and struggle and stress that is very real.

David Horsager: let’s take those one, at a time they’re so important, and I think you know, like I said I know you and I have lots of places I could go and would like to go and you there’s so much that you could offer today but.

David Horsager: let’s do something well and I think we should talk about this a little bit, as you know, for me, i’m going to add some epiphanies in my life and decades ago, or so I lost 52 pounds in five months and i’ve kept.

David Horsager: You know 90% of it off and and it’s been a big deal for me as far as being able to fly well lead will be healthy, in fact, before we even talked about the three h’s and i’m sure they’ll fit under this.

David Horsager: A lot of what i’ve noticed with leaders that I interview that I walk next to whether it’s presidents of countries or companies, the greatest ones.

David Horsager: They actually have something about leading themselves well not perfectly, certainly, but they’re leading themselves well you’re influencing a lot of others, what are you doing to lead yourself well and maybe even as a routine as a is there are some things you’re doing.

Annie Meehan – CSP: For sure.

Annie Meehan – CSP: In fact, yesterday I was at a meeting and I said Happy New Year and then people are like what Nice was think September 1 is my new year again.

Annie Meehan – CSP: So yesterday morning I pretended to be a jogger I pretended again today it’s going so far, but definitely having a morning routine right like for to maintain my own health, it is some sort of movement every morning.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Usually it’s my dogs telling me to take them for a walk, it is time for quiet, it is a start, the day with a glass of water, before I decide to have caffeine, or whatever else i’m going to do.

Annie Meehan – CSP: it’s those routines and rituals that I put into place regarding going to bed early waking up early, so I can take care of myself So yes, absolutely leaving myself well first before we have other people.

Annie Meehan – CSP: lead us so health matters, I always think about David when we think about health usually, the first thing people go to is physical health.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I think there’s actually seven areas of health, that I like to help people on so we talked about physical, emotional mental relational spiritual financial and career health.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Because, as a gym owner for 12 years working with thousands of clients.

Annie Meehan – CSP: What I recognized if any of those areas were out of out of sorts, they were stressing people it did affect their physical health, so I tried to dig into what’s really bothering you what’s keeping you up at night, and then, what can we do around that area of your life to help you get healthy.

David Horsager: What can a company do lets you know this is that, as far as an H3 culture that first one being held, what are some things I suppose under each of these I missed some, by the way, physical, emotional relational spiritual career was in the middle there.

David Horsager: Financial yep.

Annie Meehan – CSP: physical, emotional mental.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yep so relational career and.

David Horsager: Great yeah.

David Horsager: physical, emotional.

David Horsager: Mental financial relational spiritual and career, maybe out of order but.

David Horsager: There we go there’s no so so let’s talk about that.

David Horsager: And maybe we can do something for each of them, but let’s just talk about one or two what what have you seen companies that are that are caring about health.

David Horsager: and healthy cultures their people what are they doing that’s different what did they add whatever they thought you know there’s a lot of people are kind of doing the same thing, but what are what are some standouts for this area of being an H three culture as far as hell.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah I think helping people communicate, I think one of the ways to stay healthy.

Annie Meehan – CSP: is to create people used to hang out at the watercooler right now, everybody brings their own water they do their own thing they’ve got their headphones in so creating a place to talk I love the idea of companies actually creating a space.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Taking an office and turning it into a meditation room.

Annie Meehan – CSP: really being intentional offering yoga during before work during lunch or after work, some of those really intentional simple things.

Annie Meehan – CSP: To allow people space, because people are stressed out and busy now if people are doing it at home working virtually one thing we do is create contests.

Annie Meehan – CSP: To and incentives to support people in making healthy choices, you know, whatever that is hey guys share your favorite recipe hey let’s let’s challenge each other to drink 64 ounces of water, a day.

Annie Meehan – CSP: different ways let’s talk, what are you doing to deal with stress let’s have a Bulletin board we’re we’re sharing ideas.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Because I think what it does, is it opens up the conversation, which I always believe in communication, but second of all acknowledges without shame.

Annie Meehan – CSP: That stress is real people are stressed out right now, and when we can talk about it, we don’t feel as alone, and we feel supported by the company.

David Horsager: Absolutely, are there are there actually like with contests are there, you know HR or shame issues we should be aware of with how we do them.

David Horsager: What does that look like what’s a good contest give us an example of a couple contests that aren’t like whoever can do the most push ups tomorrow or.

David Horsager: Whatever lose.

David Horsager: Whoever loses the most weight, I mean that’s kind of that’s a problem, so what are you going to do what or gains the most I mean that’s, the problem is, we prejudge even what healthy might look like for someone so.

David Horsager: What what’s a contest that would work that would.

Annie Meehan – CSP: avoid those weight numbers.

Annie Meehan – CSP: So, want to do it it’s percentage right.

Annie Meehan – CSP: But water and what I had like when i’m working with companies that are like hey any you know i’ve never done a five K.

Annie Meehan – CSP: i’m like you know what I consider everybody that signs up so already winning like just get in sign up and then, and especially because companies if they can afford it.

Annie Meehan – CSP: To incentivize people just to say yes right just to say yes i’m going to do a five K and now get a walking partner and now during lunch let’s an add an.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Extra 10 minutes to your lunch to do this, or part of it, one of the big things that i’ve been working with companies on which seems so simple to me, but so significant as silence.

Annie Meehan – CSP: One tool is, can you be silent and it seems like how hard can that be, but one more silent we’re on our phone right we’re picking up our phone we’re not but can you really be silent, with no computer no music no phone.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Just for five minutes a day three days a week, and people say any.

Annie Meehan – CSP: One minute feels like forever i’m so overstimulated.

Annie Meehan – CSP: So I think there’s way to incentivize and keep it simple so i’m always about making a baby steps so they can win right, can you do one minute of silence, what does that look like what did it feel like can we pass out journals right down when you’re stressed, no.

David Horsager: I love it well it’s interesting because I feel like when you take these healthy areas, they all flow together, I mean physical effects of emotional emotional effects of relational.

David Horsager: And there’s a lot of flow of health that that it connects with each connects with the other isn’t that true.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Absolutely and hiring speakers to come in and teach on organization recipes those calming those tools that your staff, if you can take away one stress from them, they were going to show up better.

Annie Meehan – CSP: right if they’re stressed out about parenting and teaching at home and trying to come to work, how can we help support you asking the right questions right like where do you need support, is it financial is it organization is it parenting helping the companies have.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Their individuals which actually supports the company.

David Horsager: i’m going to jump over from what you just said before we hit the next ages and just ask you a question that i’m curious about these days, a lot.

David Horsager: And that is, in my experience lately, like the best leaders, whether it’s in boardrooms or leadership teams.

David Horsager: they’re able to ask great questions and you just said something about asking great questions so i’m going to jump off the rails but, basically, what do you think are some questions leaders should be asking.

David Horsager: To get at these core issues like increasing health or dealing with the right things, what are what are some of the questions they’re missing I.

Annie Meehan – CSP: think a lot of it has to do with our approach and asking those questions too so being really intentional and asking how are you doing.

Annie Meehan – CSP: But then always following it up with what can we do better.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I think a leader has to have exactly i’m going to go back to you, David is that trust, because if you don’t trust your leader.

Annie Meehan – CSP: A lot of employees that I get to work with will say I don’t feel safe i’m afraid to tell them hey i’m so stressed out and thinking about quitting because what if they say, well, you can go.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You know, and so, being a trusted advisor and having that trust, as you talk about and say you.

Annie Meehan – CSP: know what how are you guys doing, how can we support you are at home or at work.

Annie Meehan – CSP: My husband works for prime therapeutic and.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I don’t know if i’m allowed to say names on here or not, but they’ve been awesome you know they have been like hey we know everyone’s working from home here’s a little bit of extra money to increase your wi fi.

Annie Meehan – CSP: here’s a little extra money to get you a new chair, because you’re sitting in it more hours at home.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You know, we appreciate you they’ve been doing these recognition awards which my husband doesn’t care about, but I do.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And he’s gotten two of them and i’m like people are saying hey you’ve really worked hard on this project, it doesn’t always have to cost money, I think when leaders recognize how can we.

Annie Meehan – CSP: recognize someone, how can we appreciate someone and ask those questions, but be safe, know so that people will be vulnerable with you, I think a lot of people feel afraid to be honest, on how stressed or overwhelmed they are for fear it’ll jeopardize their job and.

David Horsager: What about the leader, like, I have the weight and opportunity to walk next to some of the top leaders of countries or companies they’re totally overwhelmed and stressed to.

David Horsager: Everybody every speaker they have comes entertainer that has come to you need to do this better you need to give them more you need to.

David Horsager: recognize more you need to help them with this you got to give this help option you got to give us your.

David Horsager: they’re responsible to the border their necks on the line, as far as quarterly earnings or everything else.

David Horsager: What about them that sit somewhat alone at the top any recommendation for them that many are just telling you need to do more in this time, you need to be more empathetic more caring more and more and more and they’re.

David Horsager: exhausted yeah.

Annie Meehan – CSP: they’re burnt out yeah a couple things.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Number one every leader should have a coach I think it’s the loneliest position to be at the top right, you need a coach you need someone to consult with that you can pour all this out to and ask for ideas.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Other thing is I don’t usually go I think leaders need to be available and seen and acknowledge people when they pass them I know they have a lot on their plate, but just be connected.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I don’t necessarily think, especially in the larger companies, it is.

Annie Meehan – CSP: The leaders job to implement all that appreciation and encouragement I think it’s about looking for volunteer teams and I think it’s about working with the HR department to say hey, how can we create this environment.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And if the company can afford it hiring a person specifically to appreciation preventative care.

Annie Meehan – CSP: connection and support for the staff, so I think the leaders are overwhelmed so i’m not adding more effect somebody just said to me last week we hate motivational speaker to give us more to do, I said well i’m always like don’t do more, be more.

Annie Meehan – CSP: that’s more important to me to be more than do more, nobody else needs more on their to do list.

David Horsager: that’s a good connection with that second ah hope, how can we increase hope in the workplace, that H3 culture that as hope.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah i’m always I go back to communication, but when I think of the opposite of hope, I think about fear and anxiety and fear and anxiety comes with.

Annie Meehan – CSP: The unknown right and so people have felt like of last year and a half we don’t know we don’t know when this is ending we don’t know what’s coming next.

Annie Meehan – CSP: So, to me, I think Okay, how can you decrease the anxiety inside a workplace clear communication, you know what we are making some changes but here’s what we think is going to happen in the next couple weeks.

Annie Meehan – CSP: here’s what our plan is I also love to help people when they’re dealing with hope or fear lack of hope.

Annie Meehan – CSP: look back at what was successful what how have we gotten through hard things and give themselves that list of proof, what has worked.

Annie Meehan – CSP: When we have gone through when when I talked to other speakers, they talked about 911 they talked about 2008 and they say this is what I did, and this is how I kept going.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I always like to look back for proof to keep looking forward with whole, so I think, looking back will give you hope and looking at what did were.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I think clear communication ham getting nervous what’s going on, are people getting laid off for people getting hired do I have to come back to the office.

Annie Meehan – CSP: my daughter works for pied Piper jaffray and she was saying to me, the other day, where I work for nine years, but she she doesn’t want people to know that she got her job on our own, so you know, everybody, but.

Annie Meehan – CSP: What one thing that that they were saying is this is our plan and every three months they tell them, you know, right now, you have to come in one day a week.

Annie Meehan – CSP: we’re thinking in three months, it might be two days a week, and so I think that clear communication of this is how we see it moving forward.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And in their company, they are paying for people to park in a safe lot below them, they are bringing in meals, a couple days a week, because unfortunately restaurants have both downtown minneapolis so clear communication support and.

Annie Meehan – CSP: just looking back to look forward.

David Horsager: I love it a lot of good ideas there, I still see the skeptical leader saying okay money solves a lot of sense we don’t have it Okay, you can.

David Horsager: You can pay for more of this, you can get a yoga teacher, you can get this you can get that but, in the midst of that there are things we can do so, I think we got to get off of what we can’t do and start thinking.

David Horsager: What can I do to give hope right and maybe some could bring in a meal once in a while over but also.

David Horsager: There are things right in what you said, like I love the idea we talked about 90 day plans here, like every 90 days being clear about the plan clarity covers you know, a multitude of anxiety so.

David Horsager: love it Okay, we got that last stage happiness, what are we going to do to increase the happiness factor, a half later tonight i’m a speaker sometimes.

David Horsager: The happiness part of the H3 culture.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And i’m going to go back to a set just for one second is that.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I think a lot of companies can’t afford to bring in all these people, and so I understand, then.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I also think there’s a lot of people inside companies with gifts.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I i’m not a yoga person, but I know a lot of people are, and if you said to someone hey Does anyone here teach yoga I bet you somebody in every Office could teach it could share meditation could do whatever so use your resources with them you don’t always have to spend money i’m.

David Horsager: Good, by the way, that adds another thing before you get to happiness in that is when people are using their gifts they get more engaged anyway, they love to serve we love to do that Jen Jen generally, so I think we could just think about it differently great.

David Horsager: great idea.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I love that like a medical men who like loves to do yoga all the sudden they’re like hey now I can use this thing that I really love and i’m also good at this, but they get to share another gift somebody that’s great at cooking whatever so happiness.

Annie Meehan – CSP: happiness, I was talking to someone yesterday interviewing and they were talking about that they’re a realist, and I was like oh i’m an optimist, without a doubt, and I think of people as Winnie the Pooh characters.

Annie Meehan – CSP: the ears of the world are the pessimists.

Annie Meehan – CSP: The Winnie the Pooh was of the world, might be the realist and the takers are the optimist, but i’m gonna take her all the way and how, how do you find happiness, how you discover happiness, how do you stay happy.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Well, I believe that we, whatever we look, for we will find right whatever we look, for we will find.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And so what I do what I like to help people create his own list i’m not going to tell you what makes you happy what i’m going to invite you to think about is what does make you happy, what are the things that bring you joy in life.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I love that happiness can come from watching a butterfly happiness can come from lighting a candle happiness can come from focusing on our blessings or for serving another person I love when I work for Piper we did a lot of.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Volunteering together we painted houses for habitat we serve meals, we brought gifts at Christmas and I love that I always think we get out of yourself.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And you start serving another person and when people are overwhelmed like me I can’t even keep my head above water okay i’m not asking you to do at this moment.

Annie Meehan – CSP: But can think about what you could do, and maybe it’s just inviting another child over and helping your that your child in their do homework.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Maybe it is you know, having someone which I don’t know there’s so many roles, but baking know I love to bake and then share it with other people happiness.

David Horsager: work well with me, I like to eat.

Annie Meehan – CSP: So see there you go.

David Horsager: By the way, i’m a professional ice cream tester.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Oh, my gosh that’s.

David Horsager: that’s self self self.

David Horsager: proclaimed self proclaimed, I can tell the best ice creams.

Annie Meehan – CSP: From the best ice cream.

David Horsager: Well okay.

David Horsager: If you’re ready.

Annie Meehan – CSP: i’m ready.

David Horsager: homemade vanilla.

David Horsager: On the farm.

David Horsager: Okay, with an s people are gonna kind of shirk at this.

But.

Annie Meehan – CSP: wearing David raw eggs.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Okay.

David Horsager: Okay, and by the way you don’t get someone from rags right off the farm almost never.

David Horsager: raw milk right out of the account from the farm next to us.

David Horsager: This is growing up.

David Horsager: cutting our own ice and fresh vanilla.

David Horsager: And it’s probably from Mexico, but it is.

David Horsager: amazing now this this homemade ice cream is unlike anything taste it’s just unbelievable you know the toppings make it exciting, which is what you want.

like that.

David Horsager: Okay, so you can color it any way you want, but that base of that amazing homemade ice cream definitely anything else, as you know, almost every.

David Horsager: ice cream, you know company has a what they call homemade vanilla nothing tastes like that, except for one now i’m going to get to my favorite, and this is not really should be sponsored probably because i’ve tasted a lot and there’s a lot of great ice creams out there, but there is one.

David Horsager: that’s only sold in 17 states.

David Horsager: Okay, and it comes the closest to this homemade vanilla.

David Horsager: This brand of ice cream has is the only type of ice cream in America that has banana split that all of the ingredients are the real thing so they’re not flavors made a chemical lab they are that is pineapple and chocolate and Okay, so this brand of ice cream.

David Horsager: Out of Texas.

David Horsager: Right i’m texting brand Texas.

David Horsager: Okay blue bell ice cream.

David Horsager: Blue bell bell ding ding ding not not.

David Horsager: Other blues like there’s a lot of ice creams, that I won’t name that have blue in the name of them blue bell ice cream that as far as ice cream goes they win the more mass produced taste test if you’re not going to make it homemade.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Illinois one of the states that louie bellson.

David Horsager: i’m not sure exactly, but when we go south.

David Horsager: Because you don’t have in Minnesota will look where is the blue bell so where’s out there’s a place we’re going all the way there.

David Horsager: there’s a picture of my son with me on a on a one of my last speaking events, he went with me to Missouri and I had to drive from St Louis for two and a half hours south.

David Horsager: We found a place, but of course that place we usually try to find a place where they scoop it, but sometimes that’s down in Florida, and some of the places but up up in the wizard they only had an buckets so we got it on the way back the airport, we had to eat that.

David Horsager: down on the way back to their view you could just see my you know at the time he’s 10 years old, this is a right before the pandemic and he just sitting there happily eating.

Annie Meehan – CSP: ice cream.

Annie Meehan – CSP: ice cream when is your mom having us all up to burn baylor outside of ferndale.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah this homemade ice cream.

David Horsager: We got to do it it’s very specific recipe there’s lots of homemade vanilla but i’m telling you.

David Horsager: This is the winner and it’s it’s it’s the thing so.

Annie Meehan – CSP: That me distracted by the ice cream I am and I.

David Horsager: know people probably aren’t even still listening anymore, but let’s get back.

David Horsager: To some.

Annie Meehan – CSP: sorry about that didn’t.

Annie Meehan – CSP: happen, no happiness.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah make a list look for.

David Horsager: ice cream that’s that’s right on the top of the happiness list.

Annie Meehan – CSP: But happy you’re reminding me to I used to have two girlfriends growing up, and we would go to lake Harriet.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You ever get a half gallon of ice cream in three schools.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And we would solve all the world’s problems even our half gallon of ice cream setting because it was cheaper to buy the half gallon than an ice cream Cone so we.

David Horsager: There you go.

David Horsager: yeah so happiness, how do we bring that into our culture’s and companies.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah I think I mean, I think we create a space to be happy we talked about it, we ask what makes you happy and honestly I always think about that, when we’re thinking about appreciating people ask.

Annie Meehan – CSP: know how do you want to be appreciated I love the five love languages books.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Because if you keep loving someone with gifts they don’t care about gifts, then they don’t feel loved but if they want a word of encouragement or appreciation or.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Recognition, then, then you love them that way, or maybe they just want you to sit and listen to him, I think people can feel.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I mean honestly David I always go back to I think one of the sweetest things that you can give another human is to really listen to them.

Annie Meehan – CSP: To spend that time to not be in a rush, and I think in the workplace, there are so many people wearing headphones we don’t know each other.

Annie Meehan – CSP: we’re not talking and listening, I think that brings happiness, because you feel connected you feel part of something bigger than yourself, you feel part of that community and.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You feel like you’re making a difference in the world like for me when I get hired sometimes HR directors will say don’t get people so excited they want to quit me and i’m like Okay, but if they’re miserable here and they leave they should have left anyway.

Annie Meehan – CSP: find somebody that wants to be here you don’t want someone miserable every day because it affects the whole culture right.

Annie Meehan – CSP: that’s what was going to say is like tigger I bring that joy in people like, why are you smiling, why are you happy i’m like because I choose to be doesn’t mean life isn’t hard for me, are the current challenges.

Annie Meehan – CSP: or adversity, I think about how can I be happy today, how can I look for the sunshine, in the midst of a rainy day or a struggle or a stress and I also think, words are really powerful.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I think that when we use negative words or speak out of fear alive.

Annie Meehan – CSP: That can make people feel anxious and unhappy, and when we start speaking about yeah it’s a challenging day but you know what I think is going to happen, you know what i’m looking forward to, I think it can bring happiness to relieve anxiety.

David Horsager: Great Well that is exciting i’m excited about that work H3 culture work that you’re doing there’s.

David Horsager: there’s a whole lot more to that I want to jump over to and we’re not going to get into it, but people can find.

David Horsager: The be the exception book pineapple principle and and these other books we’re going to give you exactly where to find all of that, but I do want to step on one thing more step on because you have seven steps right to.

David Horsager: To be the exception and i’ll walk through them, because you talk about them, you can talk to them for a long time, be honest be open be healthy be flexible, be gentle with your story which I think is powerful Be courageous be authentic.

David Horsager: One thing I think would be a takeaway for those here today is, you made a comment on.

David Horsager: One time when I heard you speak, which was you know be grateful, have a gratitude journal that’s great, and we know that’s good, but you said on the back, page of that gratitude journal you write something else that might even do more good tell us about it.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Well, I think that being grateful gives you a good life but being generous gives you a great life.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I know when I look back over my life, and in fact my speaker mastermind would tease me why, who is helping people, why do you.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And they say oh that must be because all the people that helped me me and one Luis Griffith who, so why said, you know no it’s because of the people that didn’t help me.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And what I recognize is a power in helping another person, no matter how hard life is no matter what you struggle is when I get a serve another person, it is such a privilege to be at a place in my life.

Annie Meehan – CSP: We just buried my father in law last weekend and the last week and and the presents what what’s your father in law’s.

Annie Meehan – CSP: fate statement and there was discussion around it, but I went home and I told my husband right away my faith statement, as I am blessed to be a blessing.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And that’s what I think about that’s what keeps me grounded and happy is that.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I have been blessed more than I ever dreamed of as a young person so every day that I get to be above ground and serve another well that’s when I go from a good life to a great life.

Annie Meehan – CSP: that’s when I started living fully enjoy it and, like oh my gosh I hope a person i’m blessed enough to be overflowing and blessing others so that’s my joy.

David Horsager: i’m blessed to be a blessing.

David Horsager: I don’t think we can get much better than that we could talk a lot longer but i’m blessed to be a blessing and a whole lot more about the H3 culture.

David Horsager: from someone who is an exception thanks for sharing today i’ve got one more question for you Andy but before I do where can everybody find out about you, your books and the work you’re doing.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah I try to make it easy as possible, so it’s just me me, and if you Google me that will bring you to my website, which will bring in my books and my online course.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And all the good work that I get to do in the world and, as I say to you i’m blessed to be a blessing, I also had the privilege of speaking at the gold star.

Annie Meehan – CSP: weekend where all these families had last one in the military so many young and so much heartbreak and what I was saying to them you just reminded me is that I said yes and every day.

Annie Meehan – CSP: There is beauty, if we look for but there’s also suffering, but if we serve.

Annie Meehan – CSP: It takes that beauty and that suffering and makes it have meaning to serve another person I think that’s that generosity piece day, but I just think.

Annie Meehan – CSP: view every day I get up I look for beauty, I know there might be a struggle and suffering, but who can I serve and and like you say every day that we get a speak.

Annie Meehan – CSP: We get a touch another person’s life, you get to walk alongside a leader.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You are serving and you’re making it more than about yourself you’re taking the tools and the wisdom and research, you have.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And you’re touching another life blessing and impact and I that’s why I have so much respect for you and the work you’re doing because it matters it’s about getting out of ourselves.

David Horsager: here’s the assignment for tomorrow.

David Horsager: Okay, looking out for you, for everybody listening.

David Horsager: Okay, look for beauty.

David Horsager: And look for a place to serve.

David Horsager: love it.

David Horsager: Well it’s the trusted leader show me tell me about one leader you trust and why.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I was thinking about that question and growing up as adversely as I did, trust is really hard for me.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And it was a hard question I was like who do I trust you I trust in one that’s an interesting question.

Annie Meehan – CSP: I trust God my faith is the most important thing in the world, I prayed for a miracle yesterday not exactly sure if it worked out, but i’m always trusting that his wills better than mine.

Annie Meehan – CSP: You know I really trust, as I thought about this is, I trust my husband.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And I know that is a privilege that not every person can say that they trust their spouse, but my husband Greg always has my best interest in mind.

Annie Meehan – CSP: always looks out, for me it looks out for our children and he leads our family he leads, you know it’s my business, but he does want my contracts, he deals with all the money, and I trust that he’s always gonna.

Annie Meehan – CSP: Make sure that i’m taking care of him that you know my clients value me and and I don’t know I just thought.

Annie Meehan – CSP: And i’ve never really thought of it in that term it’s emotional, for me, so I think I really trust my husband like he always is like you’ve got this amazing please don’t stop the world needs, you and I, I love that I trust him.

Annie Meehan – CSP: He honors and respects me he’s in my greatest encourager I think that’s the Leader that I trust the most he leads our family leads our kids.

Annie Meehan – CSP: yeah and he leaves my business in some ways, though i’m the boss so.

David Horsager: don’t forget it.

David Horsager: Well, we know Greg and love Greg what an example.

David Horsager: Lots more to say enemy hand thanks for all your great work in the world, thanks for being a friend until next time that’s the trusted leader show stay trusted.

Ep. 51: Dr. Willie Jolley on Why A Setback Is A Setup For A Comeback

12 October 2021

Kent Svenson

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Categories: Podcasts

In this episode, David sits down with Dr. Willie Jolley, Speaker, Author, Singer, and TV and Radio Personality, to discuss why a setback is nothing but a setup for a comeback.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Dr. Willie’s Bio:
Dr. Willie Jolley is a world-renowned Hall of Fame speaker, award-winning singer, best-selling author, and popular television and radio personality. He has been named “One of the Outstanding Five Speakers in the World” & “Motivational / Inspirational Speaker of The Year” by the 175,000 members of Toastmasters International. Dr. Jolley has been inducted into the prestigious Speaker Hall of Fame and named, “A Legend of the Speaking Industry.”

Dr. Jolley is the host of the #1 Motivational Radio Show in America on SiriusXM and the Wake Up & Win daily radio program on Get up Mornings with Erica Campbell on Radio One stations across America. He is also the host of the Willie Jolley podcast on iHeart Radio and Spotify. Dr. Jolley is the author of several international best-selling books including, It Only Takes A Minute To Change Your Life, A Setback Is A Setup For A Comeback, Turn Setbacks Into Greenbacks, An Attitude of Excellence, and his popular marriage book, Make Love, Make Money, Make It Last!, that he wrote with his wife of over 30 years, Dee Taylor-Jolley.

Dr. Jolley’s clients include many Fortune 100 companies including Walmart, Verizon, Johnson and Johnson, P&G, and General Motors. Many know him as the speaker who helped Ford Motors go from the brink of bankruptcy to be able to reject a government bailout and go on to billion-dollar profits!

Dr. Jolley is now leading the field in terms of virtual programs due to years of being in front of television cameras and being able to engage and connect with people, even in this new virtual environment. Many people globally are connecting to his daily video messages to help people to get through these crisis times!

Dr. Willie’s Links:
Website: https://williejolley.com/
“A Setback is a Setup for a Comeback” by Dr. Willie Jolley: https://amzn.to/2YsAJGu
Join Willie’s Wealthy Ways newsletter: https://winwithwillie.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/willie.jolley/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillieJolley
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealwilliejolley/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williejolley
YouTube: https://youtube.com/williejolley
Clubhouse: https://joinclubhouse.com/@williejolley

Key Quotes:
1. “A setback is not the end of the road. It’s a bend in the road.”
2. “You must act on your goals and dreams.”
3. “The greater the impact, the greater the income.”
4. “Money is a tool.”
5. “If you’re going to dream, you might as well dream big.”
6. “Your best is still yet to come.”
7. “The most important decision you’ll ever make in your life is who you marry.”
8. “We cannot do all the good that the world needs, but the world needs all the good we can do.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“A Setback is a Setup for a Comeback” by Dr. Willie Jolley: https://amzn.to/2YsAJGu
“Make Love, Make Money, Make It Last” by Dr. Willie Jolley and Dee Taylor-Jolley: https://amzn.to/3agKsCB

Buy David’s NEWEST book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager I have a special guests today he has run his own company for a long time he’s got the doctor in front of his name.

David Horsager: He is you got a media kind of empire he’s got a business is reaching people around the world he’s got a nonprofit for those in prison or that could.

David Horsager: go there i’m so grateful to call him friend he’s a hall of fame speaker he’s a best selling author international and internationally and his name is Dr Willie jolly thanks for being on Dr Willie Jolley.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My dear friend, David is so much of a privilege and a pleasure, I treat our treasure a joy beyond measure for me to be on with you and to be part of the trusted leader show.

Dr. Willie Jolley: is just outstanding so for those who know me know I start the same way, whether it’s on my xm show whether it’s in my speeches on my daily radio show, I have only just a minute.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Only 60 seconds, and it is forced upon me I can’t refuse it I didn’t seek it I didn’t choose it but it’s up to me to use it.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I must suffer if I lose it give account if I abuse it it’s just a tiny little minute, but i’ll return it, these are wrapped up so i’m grateful for this minute this moment this opportunity to be on with my friend, David horse.

David Horsager: Well we’re I am absolutely grateful there’s a whole lot we’re going to dig into here but.

David Horsager: I want to ask you i’m going to start right out because you know you’ve got a lot of depth and yet people you’d say your motivational speaker in some ways to you know.

Dr. Willie Jolley: People can say that brand you know that i’ve learned.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Except that brand.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Because.

Dr. Willie Jolley: People put it put it put us all under this umbrella motivational speaker, if you are a person who speaks and encourages and uplifts and inspires and informs people but i’m okay with that i’m good.

David Horsager: How do you get that let’s just jump right in and a couple things here.

David Horsager: How do you, you know.

David Horsager: We can say there’s there is people that kind of just to be positive, this kind of thing that’s good, but how do you actually help someone.

David Horsager: transform from kind of a you to have a positive outlook that this doesn’t just happen in a moment, necessarily or a or a speech, but how do you actually help someone become positive.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Well, you know that was one of my challenges, when I started in this business community is the speakers were motivational and they would motivate people.

Dr. Willie Jolley: But they didn’t tell you how well, I have a background in psychology my my undergrad degree is in psychology sociology.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My master’s degree was in counseling and then my doctorate is in faith driven achievement.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And so I wanted to tell you, not just to be positive, but how to be positive, what were the steps that it would take because it’s really not complete it’s almost it’s almost a point of the doctor telling you where you got a broken arm and it’s leaving.

David Horsager: So let’s let’s and we don’t you know let’s jump into this quick and we could go a lot of places we need about 50 shows with you but.

David Horsager: we’re going to show people where to find more and all the great books you’ve written and I want to jump into some of those things but let’s talk about this, what what’s the framework for being genuinely positive.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Well, the framework is that your actions you must start on a daily new way of acting in order to get the.

Dr. Willie Jolley: end result of being positive so he was a be positive well here’s some of the things I recommend one of the things you do is.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My daily routine i’ll give you my daily routine I wake up in the morning and my eyes open up and the first thing out of my mouth David is Thank you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Come on, somebody Thank you I I speak it out of my mouth, thank you for another day.

Dr. Willie Jolley: When I speak, thank you, then I roll out of bed go to the bathroom come back and take some time to get on my knees I literally get on my knees and say God, thank you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I want to thank you for this, but I also want to ask that you put a hedge around me and my family today that you would keep us some hurt harm and danger I I I send out a prayer.

Dr. Willie Jolley: For my family for my friends that I get up and take some action some sort of physical activity, because when you take action and physical activity in the morning or whenever you work.

Dr. Willie Jolley: out but I work on it gives it releases endorphins into your bloodstream which are a natural way to give you a up or you don’t have to take a.

Dr. Willie Jolley: join a smoke a joint are either you can get an endorphin that’s right in your bloodstream so I work out and I get that endorphin release my pressure and that then David I do something else that that’s a little strange I say good morning.

Dr. Willie Jolley: to at least 10 people every morning I literally when i’m on my way to the gym or i’m on my way to get a cup of coffee i’m on the road speaking.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And coming from my hotel room to the boardroom or the arena, when I was on to get motivated to I would say good morning to 10 people now some of the people I say good morning to David which say good morning back.

Dr. Willie Jolley: But some would say what’s good about it, some would say someone say nothing but I still say good morning to 10 people why.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Because I wasn’t saying it for them, I was saying it for me because faith cometh by hearing and every time I would hear good morning I would be conditioning into my brain.

Dr. Willie Jolley: This is a good morning and if I said that 10 times I have condition in my brain this a good morning i’m on my way now or good afternoon good morning good afternoon i’m on my way to a good evening good.

Dr. Willie Jolley: morning Good afternoon, good evening I had a good day I repeat that day seven times, I had a good week I repeat that week.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Four times, I had a good month I repeat that month 12 times, I had a good year to start with me just say good morning I say, I say to everybody listening, whether it’s daytime evening time midnight I don’t care what time you’re listening to this good morning.

Dr. Willie Jolley: When you say you speak it okay.

David Horsager: Speaking it confirm something it definitely does writing things down does it speaking it out loud does it.

David Horsager: I think there’s something interesting Leeson i’ve started a practice my wife and I, and that is in the morning, if.

David Horsager: You know, often we get up at the same time and go to bed together there’s times i’m flying and all these other things, but often we’re together.

David Horsager: And and kind of jump up a doing some of the same time, so our first thing generally as a habit is in bed hold hands and share things we’re grateful for.

David Horsager: morning great.

David Horsager: At night before you go to bed go to bed hold hands share what we’re grateful for.

David Horsager: That day because everybody knows there’s plenty of challenges, we can focus on and it’s not that we don’t have to do we sweep them under the carpet or have to not deal with the.

David Horsager: tragedies of the world, you could say we’re in a blind to them.

David Horsager: In his trust work we’re dealing with a lot of challenges with companies and organizations and corruption issues and everything else but.

David Horsager: For us as individuals were better when we do that, so I love it needs to think on your knees on the physical action Point number three what’s your physical action of choice what’s normally.

Dr. Willie Jolley: bike right right.

David Horsager: Okay, yes, what do you do a year in DC What do you do when it’s winter.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I ride in the winter to dive right in the winter and long as it’s not less than 40 degrees or ice on the ground, but I also have a gym membership, so how going to the gym.

Dr. Willie Jolley: gym is about 10 minutes from my home and so either bike ride or go to the gym I sometimes do do a little bit of both on same day and I sometimes I ride my bike to the gym but bike riding is my is my exercise of choice, but then I go to the gym as well, and I will do the work out there.

David Horsager: I think leaders, you know one thing we found is they have routines.

David Horsager: It they take the choices and questions out of it okay.

David Horsager: I do this I think i’m on my knees, I do some physical action I say good morning 10 people i’m sure there’s more in your life that you’re doing regularly let’s come to that, but let’s.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Say i’d say, because this is a you know i’m a man of faith yeah I fast one day a week have been for many.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Many years fast one day a week and in that day i’m grateful i’m giving gratitude i’m thinking God, and so I do, that every week and have been doing it probably no, no, no couple decades now.

David Horsager: Fantastic I know I love it.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Let me tell you why David, let me tell you why because I believe that that the Bible is not just a book of do’s and don’ts or Nice book of of.

Dr. Willie Jolley: theological concepts it’s also a success manual and and Jesus said to the disciples when they could not heal somebody the reason you couldn’t do that, and you didn’t have that ability, because you didn’t have the power, the power.

Dr. Willie Jolley: comes from fasting and prayer you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: fast and pray and you can get power, I want power to move mountains, I want power to help people I want power to impact people who globally, I want power to transform.

Dr. Willie Jolley: impossible situations into possible situations and you look at somebody who was a broke busted nightclub singer that’s my story.

David Horsager: Like I might even have you sing for a second here but let’s.

David Horsager: let’s jump there because let’s get to know you a bit before we go to the next section of some things I really want you to help us think about and that is.

David Horsager: You know, one of your most famous books and you’ve got a whole lot of international bestsellers but is the whole setback is a setup for a comeback.

David Horsager: yeah and this tell us you know what about the setbacks what were some of the setbacks, you had that you came back from or had to overcome.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Whether the number one, one that I came back from I was a nightclub singer.

Dr. Willie Jolley: If you were able to see some people can’t see it, because they are on the radio, but in my office i’ve got awards behind me, those are the Washington area music associates awards.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Best jazz singer best entertainer best performer I was a nightclub singer I St jingles for pizza hut and make any crazy.

Dr. Willie Jolley: during the day, but I made my real living singing in nightclubs and I had become the number one nightclub.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Act in Washington DC things were going great well, one that I went to the nightclub the club owners, they want to talk to you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: After night show when when it and then I told the guys in the band whoa we bout to get a raise when I went to his office that night he said you were great to people loved you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: that’s why it’s hard for me to tell you what I gotta tell you we love you guys, but we got to make more money we got to get a better return on investment.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And only way to do that with a full nightclub is the lower cost than the biggest cost there’s something else filling in nightclubs.

Dr. Willie Jolley: We bought a karaoke machine I say what for what about my bills and I learned that night, nobody really cares about you and your bills with you and people you oh.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I was decimated, I was this chest, I was destroyed almost but someone gave me a motivational cassette and on episode was a guy named Charlie tremendous Jones who said.

Dr. Willie Jolley: He was one of my dear friend, he said in five years you’ll be the same person, you are today, except the two things people you meet who inspire you to books you read that empowered.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I started reading books and going to seminars and my thinking change, I took a job with the Washington DC public school system as a drug prevention coordinator.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Talking and little kids about staying away from drugs, it was during that year, David that I started giving little speeches to kids.

Dr. Willie Jolley: For the little kids and teachers to say, could you come to my teachers group someone they would take any kind of my church someone in the Church was a can you kind of my company.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Then les brown heard about this motivational speaker, who was speaking and singing and he invited me to be on tour with him and Gladys knight.

Dr. Willie Jolley: called the music and motivation dream team tour and that allowed me to be introduced to some media people because of the lesson Gladys.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I got a little radio show it got popular get syndicated now i’m on sirius xm as the number one self help show in the country on sirius xm radio.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And then that led to a book publisher here in me on the radio saying I love your ideas have you ever thought about writing a book I said no, he said, let me make you an offer, I said I just thought about it.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I wrote my first book It only takes a minute.

Dr. Willie Jolley: To change your life became a national bestseller then, as you just said, the book that put me on the map.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Globally, a setback is a setup for come up with a comeback setback setup for a comeback became a global bestseller.

Dr. Willie Jolley: then turn setbacks into greenbacks than an attitude of excellence, then chicken soup for the Christian so then make love make money, make it last the book I did with my wife.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And in 1999 I was named one of the s&p five speakers in the world by toastmasters 2005 indicators and speaker hall of fame 2013 name a legend speaking industry all because David.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I had a setback, so I want to say to people everybody who’s listening as we’ve gone through this time of.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Intense setbacks pandemic economic downturn massive job laws racial strife ecological disruption all sorts of setback, I want to say to you that a setback, is not the end of the road.

Dr. Willie Jolley: it’s a bend in the road and i’m encouraged you to take that Ben to go with it and to grow with it and come out on the other side with new opportunities and possibilities.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Now broke busted nightclub singer.

Dr. Willie Jolley: who became one of the top speakers according to toastmasters in the world, because I had faith, I had the ability to focus on my goals and dreams and I have follow through I took action, you must acronym goals and dreams and do it consistently and without fail, things will start to change.

David Horsager: What do you know you got your doctorate later on.

David Horsager: Yes, did you why did you do that, because you had a very successful yet a media business you got the production business you got all these things happening tell me about the thinking of that because that wasn’t too long ago.

Dr. Willie Jolley: yeah you’re absolutely right, I got my doctorate in 2013 and it was actually 30 years David since I got my masters, so I got my masters in 2019 83 and then I got my my doctorate in 2013.

Dr. Willie Jolley: What made me go back to school, David was i’ve been talking about going back to school, since I was.

Dr. Willie Jolley: You know finishing my masters, but then I got married, then I started speaking, then I built this business and I couldn’t take time off to go back and go to school, but yet something inside of me said, is this the best you can be.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I knew the answer was no, and so I had to man up and not just talk about what you could do to continue to better your best but do it, so I had to shut my business down for you, David.

Dr. Willie Jolley: and go back to school and it was hard, it was humbling to look to sit in the library night party in 25 years and i’m in my 50s at that point.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Right, so I said it was worth it, though.

David Horsager: i’ve noticed something about you and I think this is, this is the greats in our industry and you’re certainly one of them.

David Horsager: But is they could keep learning their continued learners they’re not talking about what they talked about 25 years ago or 50 years ago, so I think a lot of people say what did you learn from that that’s not the question I have for you and say what are you learning today what.

David Horsager: Are you learning now.

Dr. Willie Jolley: You know i’m learning every day I journal okay I journal David and I said at night and.

Dr. Willie Jolley: pull out my Journal and I read him on what I learned today and i’m learning something new every day i’m learning something new every day i’m learning about.

Dr. Willie Jolley: People about i’m a student i’m a curious person I think that’s why my xm show is kind of blown up because i’m asking those curious questions.

Dr. Willie Jolley: i’m always curious what made you do this, why did you do this, how did you go from there to here, and so what i’m learning now David is how to think about my next.

Dr. Willie Jolley: iteration my next evolution, because I started as a youth speaker, while I thought is nightclub singer, but when I started speaking started his youth speaker I only.

Dr. Willie Jolley: was speaking to you, and then I expanded to colleges and then to education, groups and then the corporate leaders and it just to continue to grow and every time I would get you know somewhat comfortable I say there’s another level.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And now i’m working on my next level and what’s the next number.

David Horsager: One in a sentence or two.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Media media and ministry Okay, but not your traditional Lino Bible thumping ministry, the word ministry or minister to Minister to someone is.

Dr. Willie Jolley: A word that many people are confused about because they think you have to be an evangelical and try and get everybody to convert to your way of thinking.

Dr. Willie Jolley: But the word Minister means to serve the great story that Jesus taught on.

Dr. Willie Jolley: The Good Samaritan this guy’s going down the road he gets robbed he gets left in a ditch.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And a priest goes by a rabbit rabbit goes by, so he must be drunk he must be integrated, but as Samaritan the lowest of the low the outcasts sees this man hurt.

Dr. Willie Jolley: and takes them and and puts vantages on them and put them on as animal and takes them to the end that says to the innkeeper.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Take care of him here’s the money i’ve got now take care of this man and i’ll come back soon, and if you have to spend more money than what i’ve left.

Dr. Willie Jolley: i’ll pay you whatever he said that he’s a friend of you know, have you is your cousin no do you why are you doing he he’s my neighbor.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I never met him before that’s ministry David and that’s what I want to do, I want to inspire people, whether they’re Christian, Muslim, Jewish I don’t care what they are, they need help do they need encouragement to they need up that what’s what i’m here to do.

David Horsager: And what does that look like in the next in the next phase of your life that’s your media that’s on xm that’s on TV tell me about it.

Dr. Willie Jolley: yeah that that’s the Willie jolly jolly media but it’s a here’s the thing David here’s what i’m thinking is what i’m thinking and what you hear this clear.

Dr. Willie Jolley: is not just the next meeting part of my nice it’s the next hundred years.

Dr. Willie Jolley: that’s what that’s what i’m thinking now where do I see this in 100 years because I learned that the great ones will plant trees and take 80 years to grow.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And then the 80s when they do it that’s my goal, so my goal is David is that 100 years from now, some child walk into a room.

Dr. Willie Jolley: and see a picture of me and my wife on the on the mall and run on a ban on a fireplace and run up to it and kiss that pictures they Thank you great great great great granddaddy and thank you great great great great grandma for what you did.

Dr. Willie Jolley: 100 years ago to make it possible for me to have a business or home a family.

Dr. Willie Jolley: A financial legacy that’s my goal so that’s what i’m thinking right now that’s where i’m going right now, and so we’re building this I can pass the keys at some.

Dr. Willie Jolley: point in time to my son he’s an attorney and he can pass it to his children, and then we keep passing it, I give you something and encouraged me daily life, hopefully, encourage you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I interview, the best of the brightest on my xm show and I encourage everybody to listen to my xm show, I had a guy named David horse and he was fantastic.

Dr. Willie Jolley: It was fantastic.

Dr. Willie Jolley: All right, but.

Dr. Willie Jolley: But I interview, the best of the brightest and then it goes podcast and you can get it on the Willie jolly wealthy his podcast but one of the people I interviewed but it didn’t go to park and we just had a conversation.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Because I was planning to pass the interview he’s the president of the Dale Carnegie Institute.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I said to him, I said tell me about the deal Carnegie Institute, he said, we got 4500 franchisees around the world.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And they pay us a very significant fee to be franchisees I said that’s fantastic and he was telling me about it and I just did the numbers in my head so that’s a lot of money, I said so where can I buy stuff he said you can’t.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I said, you can pass that he said no it’s a private company it’s a private company, yes, I said, who owns the company, he said, the family.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Conflict I said how long have they own it since 1910 120 hundred and 21 years or 110 years at that point 110 years old, and I said they’ve been getting money for 110 years every year he said absolutely so.

David Horsager: By the way, here’s my question on that, by the way.

David Horsager: Our family has a little different belief on on being given money isn’t the healthiest my my parents just.

David Horsager: Had a sold half of the farm and i’ve been having fun given money away to things, but do you think it’s best for those generations future generations to be given.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Money best that they have a trust that the money is in a trust and that the trust gives them.

Dr. Willie Jolley: A renewable expense in exchange for what is written in the trust that they must get an education, because you give money to people who are on education, it will kill them.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And so, they have to get an education and certain benchmarks, they must pit in order to get that payment is there okay it’s there but it’s, it must be met it’s not just let me, let me give it to you because you have my last name no you gotta do something, because that’s how we grow.

David Horsager: you’re talking yeah I know I love it, I was just talking to somebody said basically know wealth passes past three generations almost.

Dr. Willie Jolley: ever.

David Horsager: that’s fine that and then, of course, you have.

David Horsager: Carnegie am you have Rockefeller.

David Horsager: Seven generations now, I think.

David Horsager: And there are some people that are doing it right, I guess, so I just wanted to touch on absolutely right yeah.

Dr. Willie Jolley: We put it in a trust.

David Horsager: I know that I love that I love your legacy, the impact you’ve made are making and are going to make let’s.

David Horsager: let’s touch on something that we don’t always get to touch on but i’m passionate about, and that is, you know marriage, you know.

David Horsager: you’re passionate about marriage, these days, and the the you know, making an impact there for for many tell me about where that passion came from and what you’re kind of doing about creating healthy marriages and then i’ve got a follow up question.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Sure, so here is our program my wife and I have been married as of this recording 36 years haven’t had an argument in 33 years and we wrote a book.

Dr. Willie Jolley: That talks about what we’ve learned from wise mentors who have been married 40 5060 years, as well as what we’ve learned in our journey, the book is called make love.

Dr. Willie Jolley: make money, make it last 10 secrets to shape a great marriage and we do a weekly television program online on Facebook live instagram live and linkedin live Monday night at 9pm.

Dr. Willie Jolley: it’s called make love big money maker last broadcast when we do a half hour every week.

Dr. Willie Jolley: On some issue of marriage, we found in marriages break up for one of three reasons, David for sex money or communication or lack thereof, of the three, and so we realized that many people have little.

Dr. Willie Jolley: This little hairline fractures in there and something in their marriage and they don’t deal with it and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger becomes a chasm.

Dr. Willie Jolley: It becomes the grand Canyon, and so what we decided to do was to try and do what god’s given us an assignment to do was to save a million marriages.

Dr. Willie Jolley: and enhance a million marriage and then we just did it the best we could, but the book now is doing terrific all over the world, and so and we’re proud it’s under our.

Dr. Willie Jolley: printing imprint jolly publishing so that is something we created.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And the book is totally under the auspices, but we want to just inspire people to stay married and to find a way to be happily married and enjoy each other for years and years, and not get bored with each other, but enjoy the process.

David Horsager: I was mentioning to you before my parents just celebrated their 62nd I believe this summer, my my in laws 50th.

David Horsager: anniversary proud of both of their marriages and commitments and all that and my wife 20 little over 24 years so.

David Horsager: I want to ask you this, what give us two tips from the we can do tomorrow morning every relationship every marriage married person listening to things they can actually apply to.

David Horsager: Do you have to have a better marriage.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Two things that we recommend having to keep your marriage fresh it is one have a weekly date night.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Have a weekly date night now people say, well, I don’t have any money you don’t need money when we had that we started, we learned this from a couple who told us have a weekly date night.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And we started doing it every Thursday night, even when i’m traveling when I was traveling I can smalls my wife can travel with me.

Dr. Willie Jolley: i’d call in we’d watch when I was hoping we’d watch hill street blues and La la or whatever was out on Thursday night we get some jiffy pop popcorn yeah I don’t even know about a you too young for that David okay that’s.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Your faith financing for jiffy pop you put it on the stove you pop it up and and that was a day and we sit on the couch watch TV and the two things you cannot talk about on your date night.

Dr. Willie Jolley: The kids and the bills, because you didn’t happen when you were dating so you date and that’s why, having a weekly date night number two.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Is i’m giving three because they are important, is say I love you every day.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Even if you don’t feel like saying speaking because you conditioning yourself and your spouse and then third hold hands when you hold hands you’re not just holding hands.

Dr. Willie Jolley: you’re holding hearts I love what you said about it, the gel hold hands and debate and talk about today Those are the things we recommend if you do those it will have a profound impact on your marriage simple just tried it works.

David Horsager: you’ve I love it you, but when the same token you’ve interviewed a lot of successful people.

David Horsager: yeah grateful to be on there that was fun, but you’ve got some amazing people give us a couple takeaways from those that you’ve interviewed as far as just life and maybe even business success.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Sure sure a bill Marriott he said, if you want to be successful in business, make sure you take good care of the people who work in your business hmm treat them really well, because then they will treat your customers really well.

Dr. Willie Jolley: General Colin Powell said perpetual optimism is a force multiplier if you are a small band of small army of.

Dr. Willie Jolley: A team of 10 people but you’re perpetually optimistic and you’re positive, you will perform like 100 people because it grows your impact and then les Brown said, whatever you focus on longest become stronger.

Dr. Willie Jolley: So grow yourself and you’ll grow your income your grow your wealth, remember that the greater the impact, the greater the income.

David Horsager: yeah I love it, what do you, what do you, what do you what are you learning from these these what’s your favorite resource, I know.

David Horsager: We know this input equals output, so you got to put good stuff and you’ve got a lot of output happening from all your shows and books and writings and readings and tearing what are you putting in.

Dr. Willie Jolley: yeah you know i’m reading I don’t read as much as my wife, even though i’ve got the radio show and i’m doing a new guest every week.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I try and read that book, but my wife is reading about two books, a week, but I read my guest book books and then I I i’ve made a habit over the years, David of doing something I use it every to faith Facebook.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And then, a business book, I read a faith Facebook as a business book because I realized I gotta stay balanced because i’m here for two reasons, to make a difference.

Dr. Willie Jolley: and make a profit and if I get out of balance in any one of those i’m not able to do the other well if I get out of balance and making a difference and i’m all about the money when I want you to make a lot of money, but then money becomes your God money is a tool.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Okay it’s a tool and, of course, the more that tool, you have, the more you can impact not just your faith based places like churches.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And nonprofits and charities, but you can give your children and your family some some opportunities, but if you focus only on the.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Money you’ll get out of balance, but if you only on the faith you’re not able to to have the money to keep it going so each one has to be valid I gotta have impact and income and if I say that’s it if I do that brother i’m going to think i’m gonna do our right.

David Horsager: We say the same exact thing impacting income it’s interesting because.

David Horsager: yeah the first board I was on 20 years ago, more than that maybe now they had this great impact orphanages around the world need come back from Ghana or wherever it’s like.

David Horsager: But we don’t think about the money, no we’ll just we just think about the work and two years later that organization wasn’t around at all, because they.

Dr. Willie Jolley: say they will be around.

David Horsager: You know, you said something a moment ago about being curious, and I know you are and that’s one of the things that keeps you being such a great learner.

David Horsager: What I find you know great people they’re curious and they asked some of the right questions, what are some of your favorite questions to ask.

Dr. Willie Jolley: yeah I got some great questions here’s one that I asked almost every body I interviewed.

Dr. Willie Jolley: One is, why is it important to be wealthy.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Okay, why is it important to be wealthy and and and it’s interesting that the common answer, because it gives you options it gives you options on your health care, far too many people die of for a small.

Dr. Willie Jolley: health issue that they did not have money to fix I had a friend who are, who was like a Big Brother to me, who was one of the he was the bass player for the temptations temptations a great group.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And he but he was a musician he has his money was up and down up and then he didn’t have health care any data, something that would cost $5 in a in a prescription I just a small infection.

Dr. Willie Jolley: will give you money, I have gives you option healthcare, where you send your children to school, what kind of home, you have where you live okay that’s fine second.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Is I asked every guess, one of the you guys you gotta do this if you want to be a success and I get such as such amazing.

Dr. Willie Jolley: answers from every guess what is it so let’s say I asked myself Willie jolly, what are the goddess you got to do this if you’re going to be a successful.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Well, here mastering you guys and everybody has their own you gotta dream big you gotta dream big is your dream, you might have a dream big second you gotta you gotta you gotta.

Dr. Willie Jolley: be good.

Dr. Willie Jolley: You know I love this quote it’s on my Wall, we cannot do all the good that the world needs, but the world needs all the good, we can do do good be good tried to be a leader and another you gotta is make sure you prioritize.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Keep your priorities in check, my pride, is a very clear God first family second.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Business third everything else after that.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I don’t get it out of I don’t get it twisted, as they say.

David Horsager: you’ve got a lot of quotes you quote a lot of people you’ve got a lot of sayings and tips and takeaways what’s it what’s your favorite quote I think oh this favorite quote, or at least a favorite quote or saying.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My favorite quote is your best is still yet to come simple I don’t know every end of every show you heard me say when you want my show, at the end of every segment I say.

Dr. Willie Jolley: The best is yet to come and, at the end of the show I say your best is still yet to come on my daily radio show which is syndicated and my my video version is about to be picked up I just had a conversation.

Dr. Willie Jolley: With a major major sponsor who’s who wants to sponsor this in a digital format, so if you go to win with really calm.

Dr. Willie Jolley: You can sign up for my newsletter we I sent out a daily one minute messages also on instagram and linkedin and Facebook and YouTube I barely one minute message in at the end of that I say your best is yet to come that Dave you need to know why I said.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Because I told you i’m a man of faith and I love this story that’s in my new book my new book is coming out about about faith in action.

Dr. Willie Jolley: His story about a woman who was terminal.

Dr. Willie Jolley: So she asked the pastor to come over and she said pastor here’s what I want you to do here, the scriptures I want him to songs I want here’s what I want very clear detail.

Dr. Willie Jolley: She said at the end when they have the repast I want you to make sure, and when what most, most importantly, he said when y’all have the casket make sure that they see in my in my hand my fork is in my right hand.

Dr. Willie Jolley: He said, why do you need a fork in your hand because at the at the repairs, I wanted to keep in mind that when we had to church socials they’d always say to you.

Dr. Willie Jolley: keep you for after the entree after whatever the dinner dessert is on the way the good, the best is on the way, and so I want people to know that, even though i’m dying here on this side of the River my best is, on the other side of the River.

David Horsager: or for bad.

David Horsager: News, yet again we can’t stop that.

David Horsager: You know I love it there’s so much here let’s give them this and we’ll put it all in the show notes we’ve got all your how to find you but tell us out loud, how do we find out what are the key places, because people should be listening to your xm show it’s phenomenal.

David Horsager: Yes, where where do we find out about Willie jolly where we sign up one more time, where do we sign up for.

Dr. Willie Jolley: With with Willie calm when with fully that that’s the site we created a has all my websites I got about nine or 10 websites.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I got a faith based jolly good news my my nonprofit is there, my motivational side for young people, business site.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Marriage site, all of them, and when with Willie calm so go to win with willie.com sign up for the newsletter and you’ll get updates on.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My marriage show you just get lots of information to help you grow your.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Your your personal life your professional life, your family like your financial life your faith walk and will help you grow your future that’s what i’m here to do man just do the best I can, and when my time comes to go.

Dr. Willie Jolley: My plan is that even the undertaker will be sad to see me go that’s my.

David Horsager: hey we can close much, much better than that, but we have one final question.

David Horsager: john the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why.

Dr. Willie Jolley: yeah I trust you know this is going to be somebody I trust my pastor my pastor his name is john Kennedy Jenkins senior.

Dr. Willie Jolley: he’s the pastor of the first Baptist church of glenarden in in Maryland and he’s also the chairman of the board of the National Association of evangelicals.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I trust this man because he’s a man of integrity, a man of character, he will not do something, just because it’s convenient or it’s.

Dr. Willie Jolley: it’s easy he’ll he’ll take the heart of.

Dr. Willie Jolley: choice and it’s always scriptural so I trust him and then, believe it or not, I trust and i’ve learned a lot from general Colin Powell, we had lunch, one of the things about general how about he’ll tell you know.

Dr. Willie Jolley: And I say Jennifer I need you to do is in no way I won’t do that I can’t do that, and he helped me learn how to tell people that never works.

Dr. Willie Jolley: You know, and do it and those two people that come to mind that I trust my wife, I trust my wife implicitly.

Dr. Willie Jolley: I trust her she’s bright she’s brilliant she’s beautiful and I know she’s got my back that, let me tell you something that this is for all married people.

Dr. Willie Jolley: The most important decision you’ll ever make in your life folks is, will you marry, because every important there’ll be there’ll be the decision maker.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Next to your faith, the most important decision actually faith but that that decision will be directly impactful for whether you have 90% of your misery and 90% of your joy will come from that decision so choose well.

David Horsager: Choose well and be well.

David Horsager: You know, not just about them, but B2B someone you want to be married to write.

Dr. Willie Jolley: To you either man, you are talking right now saying I got it coordinate book.

Dr. Willie Jolley: That who you are as much more important than who you married because you will marry the right person and if they’re not they will become the right person because of who you are.

David Horsager: yeah I can think of an example of my head right now that has has done that well there is more, we could say.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Thank you for inspiring women like will send around a kitchen table.

Dr. Willie Jolley: Talk and that’s what I wanted when I come to Minnesota I gotta hang out with you and we got a break some bread.

David Horsager: And come on come see the family, see the kids come jump on a horse weekend.

David Horsager: There yeah we can get you on a tractor or a horse or.

David Horsager: But, but thank you, thank you hey, thank you for being a friend and for touching me and, by the way, this is one thing I always say on the show, but thanks for not just being trusted but trust worthy.

David Horsager: To a lot more to be worthy of it than just a period so.

David Horsager: hey everybody check out the show notes for everything about when with jolly calm and everything else and Dr jolly thanks for making me better thanks for sharing with the audience here today until next time everyone stay trusted.

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