Ep. 57: Len Herstein on The Advantages Of Strategic Unpredictability

In this episode, David sits down with Len Herstein, Business and Brand Marketing Expert, Speaker, and Author, to discuss the advantages of strategic unpredictability.

Buy David’s NEWEST Book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Len’s Bio:
Len Herstein has over 30 years of experience in business and brand marketing. Prior to founding his marketing and events company (ManageCamp Inc.), Len innovated, managed, and grew brands for major consumer packaged goods marketers, including Coca-Cola, The Campbell Soup Company, and Nabisco. Since 2015, Len has served as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff in Douglas County, Colorado. In his book, Be Vigilant!, Len combines all his experiences to provide a detailed roadmap for individuals and organizations to stop complacency, improve performance, and safeguard the success they’ve worked so hard to achieve.

Len’s Links:
Website: https://lenherstein.com/
“Be Vigilant!” by Len Herstein: https://amzn.to/32jmG8d
Brand Manage Camp: https://brandmanagecamp.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenherstein/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lenherstein
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/len.herstein/

Key Quotes:
1. “Complacency kills.”
2. “Success is not the end goal, keeping it is.”
3. “The more success we enjoy, the more likely we are to become vulnerable to complacency.”
4. “Vigilance is the awareness of potential threats.”
5. “The worst time to figure out what you’re going to do in a crisis is when you’re in the crisis.”
6. “The best type of disruption is self-disruption.”
7. “When you’re engaged you’re paying attention.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Be Vigilant!” by Len Herstein: https://amzn.to/32jmG8d
Brand Manage Camp: https://brandmanagecamp.com/

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Show Transcript

david_horsager: Welcome to the Trusted Leader Show. it’s David Horsager, I’m back with

david_horsager: another amazing talent. He’s a marketing and branding expert. He’s worked

david_horsager: with brands like Coca Cola and Campbell Soup Company and Nabisco He’s the

david_horsager: CEO of Brand Manage Camp, and the founder even invited me to speak there

david_horsager: with some other Uh experts. It was a just a fantastic event. You can learn

david_horsager: more about that at Lenhurst Dot Com. We’re going to give you other ways to

david_horsager: reach out to him, but I just want to welcome you to the show. He’s also a

david_horsager: reserve sheriff. How cool is that? So welcome to the show Len Herstein.

len_herstein: Thanks. They. good to see you, man. Good to see you.

david_horsager: It’s great to see you again. I’ll tell you what we’re going to get into it.

david_horsager: I want to talk about your book that you author. Uh, be vigilant before we

david_horsager: do. just give us a uh. you know a sixty seconds onn. who is ▁lynnhrsten?

len_herstein: Yeah, So who isst man? I’m trying to figure out Myge. you know I, I’ve gone

len_herstein: through several ititerations. I started out in consulting, and then I moved

len_herstein: into consumer package, Good brand marketing with the companies that you talked

len_herstein: about from there. I’ gone to a lot of conferences and and couldn’t find the

len_herstein: one I wanted to go to, So I created my own that’ Whereed Braence

len_herstein: just did our nineteenth annual this yearrtually. Um, in two fifteen, I was

len_herstein: looking for a way to uh, give back to the community. I became a reserve

len_herstein: sheriff’s deputy, and then this past year, Um, I kind of combined all my

len_herstein: experiences into this. This vigilant is

len_herstein: sixty secondswese. go big.

david_horsager: yeah, we’re excited here about Bevinton. He’s also a double Cornell grad,

david_horsager: which, uh, We got some family. Uh, that is big on Cornell out here’. got

david_horsager: nephews and um, uh, yeah, cousins y all that, Uh. Cornell University. So

david_horsager: it’s the uh, You know we’re we’re farm people. So it’s kind of the Agg Ivy

david_horsager: League campus. right, so uh, we’re we’re um. kind of mixes it. So

len_herstein: They. they’ve changed the names a bit. But when I was when I was younger and I

len_herstein: actually went to college, I went to the College of Agriculture and Life

len_herstein: Science is a Cornell. So

david_horsager: yeah, great. all right.

david_horsager: let’s let’s jump in here and let’s start with the The book. Be vigilant. I’m

david_horsager: going to jump in here, but give us like wh. Why? why did you write it? And

david_horsager: then I’ got some key questions that I think will be relevant to everybody

len_herstein: Yeah, absolutely so. like I like I mentioned, I, I spent. you know, I, I,

len_herstein: thirty plus years in business and marketing and and brand management. Um, and

len_herstein: then in the last seven years I’ve been doing this, Uh, this law enforcement

len_herstein: thing, I went into thinking that it was going to be completely different than

len_herstein: anything I’ve ever done before. But what I found is that right away there were

len_herstein: things that I was applying back to business in life, and one of the key things

len_herstein: was this concept that complacency kills, And it’s something we spent a lot of

len_herstein: time on in law. enforcement. Um and I started thinking you know what

len_herstein: complacency kills businesses, It kills brands and kills organizations. It

len_herstein: kills personal relationships. Um, and so I started

len_herstein: becoming obsessed about understanding what complacency was and how it

len_herstein: manifests itself and what brings it on, and what, And and started seeing the

len_herstein: things that we do every day in law enforcement to help us fight complacency.

len_herstein: And then the book is about taking that and applying that back to how we can

len_herstein: use that in business in a life.

david_horsager: so we’re going to talk a little bit about it. Everybody’s going to want to

david_horsager: get the book to be vigilant, but I, I want to just ask you know, these days

david_horsager: there’s a lot of people burnt out. They’re burnt out in law enforcement.

david_horsager: they’ burnt out in health care. they’re burnt out in, you know, after the

david_horsager: pandemic, all these kind of things they don’t want to hear about getting

david_horsager: them off there, you know, getting mov, and more, and you know whatever, but

david_horsager: they are even becoming complacent in the midst of this. What what do we say

david_horsager: to them there with empathy? How do we? How do we motivate vigilance now?

len_herstein: Yeah, well, I mean, here’s the thing. What what I tell people is that success

len_herstein: is not the end goal. Keeping it is right, it’s not. It’s not enough to get to

len_herstein: the top of the hill. You have to stay there. You got to figure out a way to

len_herstein: stay there. And what? And And the irony is that the more success we enjoy, the

len_herstein: more likely we are to become vulnerable to complacency. Because we become

len_herstein: overconfident, we become a little self satisfied, and we become comfortable.

len_herstein: And those are all the things that build that right environment for complacency

len_herstein: to grow. So you know, the the message here is not about paranoia, is not about

len_herstein: hyper vigilance. You know what I mean. A lot of times people will think well.

len_herstein: The opposite of complacency is paranoia. Um, but it’s not because here’s the

len_herstein: deal. paranoia is based in fear. paranoia is the fear of potential dangers of

len_herstein: the fear of potential threats. What I preach is vigilance, and vigilance is

len_herstein: the awareness of potential threats. Right. So this is a book about how to

len_herstein: remain aware, right how to build the processes in, so you don’t have to be

len_herstein: thinking about it all the time, so that you are naturally aware that you make

len_herstein: put yourself in the best position to not be caught by surprise, and to be

len_herstein: ahead of the curve. The worst time to figure out what you’re going to do in a

len_herstein: crisis is when you’re in the crisis,

david_horsager: So let’s let’s

len_herstein: So let’s let’s look. One that really hit mepric

david_horsager: lookcause. One of the things that really hit me was get off the ▁x. The

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability This sounds kind of

david_horsager: crazy like. what do you mean? the

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability Tell us about this.

len_herstein: Do you meandpric

len_herstein: Yeah, So getting off the ▁x, I mean where it comes from and what we talk about

len_herstein: in law enforcement is this thing called the Udalup o o d a, which stands for

len_herstein: observe Orient de side and act, And this was something that the military came

len_herstein: up with to describe how fighter pilots make decisions And so you observe you

david_horsager: Say this again. I’ve learned this, but I need to hear it one more time.

len_herstein: more. Yeah, so it’s the udaluop, like Guda cheese,

len_herstein: but uda right, but is spelled o o d a

len_herstein: for observe. Orient, decide and act

len_herstein: right. And

len_herstein: here’s the thing. it is a. It is. it is not just a linear process. it’s a

len_herstein: looping process. Right And so

len_herstein: the the game is to get to the action as fast as you can by doing all the

len_herstein: steps. the way the human mind works and way organizations work. Is that if you

len_herstein: disrupt one of those elements,

len_herstein: you you’re forced to go back to the beginning? Right? if you’re observing and

len_herstein: orienting and you’re in the decision phase and then some of your inputs

len_herstein: change. You’ve got to go back and it slows you down the way I, You know. Are

len_herstein: you a football fan?

len_herstein: Okay? so a football fan? so say someone? Uh, say there’s a punt return right

len_herstein: and the punt returner is running straight down the field And you’re a defender

len_herstein: now, And you don’t have to be a mathematical genius to figure out where that

len_herstein: person’s running and how fast, and a what angle you need to run to intercept

len_herstein: them right. But

len_herstein: if all of a sudden they start juking and turning and twisting and spinning,

len_herstein: that’s when you see defenders fall on their butts right. Because what’s

len_herstein: happening is they’ve observed they oriented. They decided they acted and then

len_herstein: everything changed right.

len_herstein: and then they had to re observe, reorient and it messes everything up.

david_horsager: So how do we lets? let’s get. Let’s take this to practical. How do I do

david_horsager: Let’s say in the pandemic, Let’s say in some change, But the truth is you

david_horsager: and I both know there’s a massive change ahead. black chain cryptocurrency.

david_horsager: pro, another pandemic, Maybe in the next decade, You know, we got to get

david_horsager: better at this. We got to get better at in our world, building trust in the

david_horsager: midst of change, But also just be just dealing with this. I like this simple

david_horsager: process. I’ve actually read about this and it just reminded me about it, But

david_horsager: how would I orient Like? Okay, I can see observing. Okay, this is happening.

david_horsager: That’s happening. but how do I orient? decide and take action.

len_herstein: well, so there there’ there’s two. There’s two things Right. One is how do you

len_herstein: get through your process faster? Right

len_herstein: and that’s what you’re talking about. The other thing is how do you slow down

len_herstein: your competition right? And so the strategic unpredictability comes into play

len_herstein: on that second part, which is by remaining strategically unpredictable so that

len_herstein: people can’t pinpoint where you’re going to be or what you’re going to do. You

len_herstein: make slow down our decision process. Now you can speed up your own decision

len_herstein: process through Um, scenario, planning right through. So through this is what

len_herstein: we do a lot in law enforcement. We think about what if what if what? If so

len_herstein: that when the thing actually happens, we don’t have to actually go through the

len_herstein: process of figuring out what we’re going to do. We can move much quicker to

len_herstein: action because it’s

len_herstein: already muscle memory. It’s already brain memory Right. And so that’s what we

len_herstein: need to do in the organization is figure out how are we going to react if this

len_herstein: happens, Because if if we’re sitting back and we’re waiting to observe in an

len_herstein: orient theciing act, we’re going to be slow right. But if we’ve already

len_herstein: prethought if this happens, this is what we’re going to do, and this is how

len_herstein: we’re going to do it. we can move there much quicker,

len_herstein: right So so there’s two pieces to the Udal loop game. Number one is speeding

len_herstein: up your own decision process, right, and number two is slowing your

len_herstein: competitors or your potential competitors By not being so predictable Doesn’t

len_herstein: mean being Willi nearly unpredictable, so that your customer or your

len_herstein: constituent or whoever it is that you’re serving can’t ever figure out what

len_herstein: you’re about or what you’re doing. That’s not what this is about, but it’s

len_herstein: about remaining strategically unpredictable to your competition and to your to

len_herstein: your. Uh. you know competitive set

david_horsager: What what would that look like? Can you give us one example that of a brand

david_horsager: or a company

david_horsager: or someone that’s done that well?

len_herstein: done well strategic.

david_horsager: They’ve been strategically in, predict, because you know, in trust, we talk

david_horsager: a lot about being consistent. I want to know what I going to get every time

len_herstein: A lot about beings want to every know. It be the same every time in many wayss

david_horsager: I know what. It’s going to be the same every time in many ways, But is there

david_horsager: an example so we can get kind of our heads around it?

len_herstein: around it. Yeah, so I mean,

len_herstein: I’ll give you. I’ll give a quick example of someone who’s whos remains

len_herstein: strategically unpredictable, Right and then someone who who hasn’t. So if we

len_herstein: have time, if not, think about Netflix, right,

len_herstein: So everybody wants to talk about Netflix in terms of Netflix and Blockbuster,

len_herstein: right, that’s that’s common. That’s the common

len_herstein: knowledge. right Blckbuster. drop the ballmb, Netflix came in and and redesign

len_herstein: and and took over this industry of video rental. But what people don’t realize

len_herstein: is that what Netflix has done ever since is one of the things I talk about in

len_herstein: strategic unpredictability is self disruption, right, So

len_herstein: the best type of disruption is self disruption, disrupting yourself before

len_herstein: somebody else does. It helps you remain unpredictable, and this is what

len_herstein: Netflix keeps doing right. So Netflix took the video rental business and

len_herstein: changed it. Then they move to streaming. Then they move to uh, their own

len_herstein: content and original content. And now

len_herstein: they just announce that they’re actually getting into gaming and doing games

len_herstein: within their platform

len_herstein: to keep people more engaged right every time every step along the way

len_herstein: May maybe gaming’s not going to work for them right. But what it does is it

len_herstein: keeps everybody else guessing and it keeps everybody else playing catch up,

len_herstein: which slows them down and make sure they’re not the ones doing this. The

len_herstein: disruption. So to me, Netflix would be a

len_herstein: great example of that

david_horsager: good example. What was it quick? What was the other example of someone who

len_herstein: good example. What was it quick? What with the other example of someone who

david_horsager: hasn’t done it and they fell off

len_herstein: hasn’t done it and they fell off. Uh, like everybody in retail. Okay, so so

len_herstein: let you

david_horsager: well and

len_herstein: what. What do itps?

david_horsager: you could go back to your blockbusters like the opposite, Right Kodak, or

david_horsager: you know anybody,

len_herstein: but you know here’s

len_herstein: here’s a great example. I. I. I like Edde bower clothes. Uh, I’m

len_herstein: a. I’m a pretty simple guy right so

len_herstein: Eddie Bower’s pretty pretty easy for me, But you know several years ago Eddie

len_herstein: Bower trained me and everybody else in the world not to buy anything from them

len_herstein: unless it was at least fifty percent off. Right, I get emails from them

len_herstein: literally every day, ranging from thirty percent to forty percent. I don’t

len_herstein: even look at them until they get to fifty percent, knowing that there is a

len_herstein: sixty percent coming. Right, they are squarely on that ▁x. and they will, And

len_herstein: and I just, I just don’t need to buy for them. Not only do I know that those

len_herstein: sales are coming, All their competitors know they’re coming too, And when

len_herstein: they’re coming, and what rates they’re coming, and so they have become very

len_herstein: very stuck on an acts as a lot of people in retail. do

david_horsager: let’s get personal. Gilance be your whole. You know you have this whole

david_horsager: part. One of the chapters is on the

david_horsager: autonomy, fighting complacency through the power of empowerment. But maybe

david_horsager: you can speak to that, but also just how do we fight complacency at work,

david_horsager: but also in our marriage, in our relationships and our friendships. Ive been

david_horsager: married my wife for a quarter century. Now, Uh, four

david_horsager: kids to to show for it and an amazing marriage. But how do we you know fight

len_herstein: Yes, okay, so two separate questions there. I’ll take the first one first. So

len_herstein: autonomy in the workplace, we’re seeing this right now. everybody’s talking

len_herstein: about this. The great resignation, right, as

len_herstein: if it’s a covet thing. this is not a covid thing, right.

len_herstein: The great resignation is not a covid thing. This thing has been brewing

len_herstein: for a while, and covid, maybe accelerated it, or brought it to a head, but the

len_herstein: reality is that for a long time employers had a lot of power right. And what

len_herstein: do they do with that power? They abused it right. And so one of the things I

len_herstein: talk about in the book is this this need to be able to articulate the y. It’s

len_herstein: something we talk a lot of in law enforcement about. Why are we doing every

len_herstein: single thing we’re doing right? And it relates to understanding Uh, what your

len_herstein: purpose is right. What is the goal? What is the overall purpose of this

len_herstein: organization of this team of this project of whatever level you want to define

len_herstein: it, and making sure that you can articulate the y

len_herstein: when the Y is because we can, or because we said so those are not good wise.

len_herstein: Those are wise that work in the short term, but come back to haunt you in the

len_herstein: long run, And so one of the things that employers need to do is they need to

len_herstein: make sure that they have defined this purpose that everybody can get behind

len_herstein: and that everybody can understand and articulate uh what they’re doing, But

len_herstein: what they also need to do is they need to give their employees autonomy and

len_herstein: discretion right. They need to give people the ability to feel like they have

len_herstein: power over their work product Right, Because when people feel like they’re

len_herstein: being treated like a machine like a robot that can only deliver specific

len_herstein: things, that is all they are going to deliver. You know, the example

len_herstein: I use. Uh, you know is ▁zappos. Right, and you know everybody W, you know may

len_herstein: have heard the story of you know the ▁zappo’s customer service agent who took

len_herstein: a call, Uh, and and you know Tony, uh shee was was there and she didn’t know

len_herstein: who it was, but they were ordering a pizza, not ordering shoes, not ordering

len_herstein: anything that ▁zappo’s actually sold. Um, and she took the time to help them

len_herstein: find a place that would deliver a pizza at the time of night that they were

len_herstein: looking for, because she understood that she had the autonomy to do whatever

len_herstein: she needed to do to make a potential customer happy, and she had the time to

len_herstein: do it right. And she also understood the purpose of the organization and what

len_herstein: that was all about. So when you give people that autonomy that what that

len_herstein: relates to and studies will show this, and you know this is released to

len_herstein: engagement, right and the more engaged people become in their work product.

len_herstein: Not only do they become better Ees, but they also become less in complacent,

len_herstein: Because when you’re engaged you’re paying attention, right, And that’s what we

len_herstein: want people to do to not become complacent. We don’t want them to ignore. You

len_herstein: know, when we’re talking about leaders up here, we rely on the people on the

len_herstein: ground doing the work to let us know to send the signals up when something’s

len_herstein: wrong, right? I just, I’m not going to name names, but I just had an issue

len_herstein: this this week with our bank. Uh, the bank that we use for our business, and

len_herstein: without letting us know without doing anything, because they needed one piece

len_herstein: of information, they actually froze our accounts for without even letting us

len_herstein: know, And a vendor had to let us know that our account was frozen. And when

len_herstein: we, when we were research that we found out well what had happen Is you know,

len_herstein: Our banker without telling us, had left the company. Nobody had taken their

len_herstein: spot. No communication happened and and all of a sudden it got to this point

len_herstein: where they just froze our account. Now we went in and we filled out this one

len_herstein: piece of paper and everything was fine, But the reality is are the people that

len_herstein: we dealt with at the branch or whatever level? Are they going to pass that

len_herstein: word up? Are they

len_herstein: going to let people know right what’s going on? Do they feel like they have

len_herstein: that autonomy and that engagement level to be able to communicate upwards?

len_herstein: Because without that, not only do they become complacent, but the organization

david_horsager: you talk a little bit about. I like this. You talk a little bit about good

len_herstein: you talk a little about? I like, talk about good habits in the in the in. The

david_horsager: habits in the in the in the uh book. Tell us, I want to get personal here

len_herstein: uh book, Tell us I want to get personal. Here tells what are the good habits

david_horsager: and tell us what are some good habits you have whether it’s for business or

len_herstein: you have, whether it’s for business or for life. Family?

david_horsager: for health? life? Family,

len_herstein: Yeah, so I mean you know this and this. This gets into the their second

len_herstein: question, which was about. You know, you

len_herstein: know your personal relationships, too, but you know. Um, you know, I talk in a

len_herstein: book about the purpose of a habit is to remove thought from a situation where

len_herstein: thought actually works to your detriment. right. So the easiest example is

len_herstein: every day when I walk in the house, I placed my keys on a hook inside the

len_herstein: door. Right. I always know where my keys are. It is a habit that I do every

len_herstein: time. No matter what I don’t think about, whether am i coming in or am I going

len_herstein: to stay for a while. Do I need to hang up on my keys? Do I not need to hang

len_herstein: every single time I hang up my keys, Because if I don’t I get in, You know

len_herstein: this is probably not great for my relationship, But my wife doesn’t do that

len_herstein: and my wife loses herur keys. Right and you can’t find Themem and we’re We’re

len_herstein: stuck going around the house looking for them because each time is different

len_herstein: right So you got to think about what in your life can benefit from not

len_herstein: thinking about it. So another example that I use from law enforcement is when

len_herstein: I’m in uniform when I’m working a shift. I do not shake hands with people. I

len_herstein: do not offer my handers. There’s a lot of reasons for that. It’s not a. It’s

len_herstein: not a germafold thing. It’s because I don’t want to give up control of but

len_herstein: piece of my body to somebody that I don’t under Know what’s going on. I could

len_herstein: get in a bad situation. Now

len_herstein: you might say well, everybody’s not a threat. True. In fact, the vast majority

len_herstein: of people are not threats, but the downside if I make a mistake and give my

len_herstein: hand to someone who is a threat is so great that it’s better for me to have

len_herstein: the habit of never doing it all, Because that way I don’t have to think about

len_herstein: it right, ’cause what’s

len_herstein: going to happen is if I have to think about it, I’m goingnna make a choice

len_herstein: based on how’s this person dressed? What do they look like? Um, how angry do

len_herstein: they look? Have I met them before? What a situation? am I in? There’s a lot of

len_herstein: variables right and I can make a mistake during any one of those. So this is.

len_herstein: this is where we get into things like you know in business what I tell you

len_herstein: know. In in marketing, I tell people to you know, always do creative briefs

len_herstein: when you’re doing when you’re doing uh products That you want somebody to

len_herstein: deliver something for you and somebody like Well, We don’t need to do a Craer

len_herstein: brief for to this one because it’s not that big right and then you end up

len_herstein: wasting a ton of time on it. So it’s one of those things where it’s a habit

len_herstein: that you can get into that benefits you all the time. And if you don’t do it,

len_herstein: the downside is pretty big. Right,

david_horsager: pretty big.

len_herstein: if if if the mistakes happen, think about that in in your life with your kids

len_herstein: or your family, what are the things that you should be doing every day,

len_herstein: whether you think ing them. you love them. right. Um, you know, doing certain

len_herstein: things that should just be a habit that shouldn’t have to require. thought.

david_horsager: good word.

david_horsager: Well, there’s a whole lot more and a whole lot more in the book, and I like

david_horsager: actually somell of the stuff on briefs and deriefing by the way, but let’s

david_horsager: jump to one last. I just give a a quick overview of your kind of vigilance

david_horsager: Av model and I could read it, but let’s just let you say it.

len_herstein: yeah. So Av model in in the book is is accountability plus transparency equals

len_herstein: vigilance, And this is something that that you know. We’ve learned this lesson

len_herstein: less in law enforcement right, but this applies to leadership in in a

len_herstein: tremendous way, because the more that we are

len_herstein: hiding things, whether by on purpose or just by nature right, the less

len_herstein: transparent we are andles, we hold ourselves accountable. the less trustworthy

len_herstein: we are right. And what happens is if we don’t think ahead about being

len_herstein: specifically accountable and holding ourselves accountable and publicly

len_herstein: proclaiming what we’re going to do, andeically about how we’ going to be

len_herstein: transparent and provide a view behind the curtain all the way through. It is

len_herstein: very easy when we experience success when we have power to ignore that stuff.

david_horsager: Mhm, Mhm,

len_herstein: Right be can right.

david_horsager: How do you define account of, Believe you know, I go to a lot of

david_horsager: organizations. They have accountailities of value, and I’ll say well, how do

david_horsager: you help people Cowel here? and like you know, accountability stuff they

david_horsager: don’t know. So we know healthy vulnerability or transparency. Bullds trust.

david_horsager: ninety percent of leaders would be. Bor would trust a leader more. if

david_horsager: they’re more transparent about their mistakes. We have a little six that

david_horsager: process for building accountability, But I’m really curious. How do you kind of

david_horsager: define accountability and what’s healthy accountability Look like, how do

david_horsager: you create it?

len_herstein: Yeah, yeah, so for me, accountability in the context that we’re talking about

len_herstein: is account

len_herstein: with that with. when E, you know whatever group you’re working with in with,

len_herstein: whether it’s a team or an organization or to your broader constituents outside

len_herstein: it is publicly holding yourself accountable. I, I tell you know, I’ll I’ll The

len_herstein: the example I’ll use in personal life is going on a diet. Right, if you decide

len_herstein: that you’re going to go on a diet or you know some sort of weight loss routine

len_herstein: and you don’t tell anybody and you just do it yourself, It’s real easy to get

len_herstein: off the mark right when you publicly tell people. when you publicly tell uh,

len_herstein: you know your family, it becomes a little bit harder to get off, but it’s

len_herstein: still pretty easy, right. But when you public tell everybody if you go out

len_herstein: there on Facebook and say here’s what I’m going to do, Here’s my starting

len_herstein: picture in three months, I’m going to post my my ending picture Right, and

len_herstein: whatever whatever I’m going to do, Now you’re publicly accountable, Right and

len_herstein: when you’re publicly accountable, it forces you to be aware. It forces you to

len_herstein: be conscious of what you’re doing, right,

len_herstein: Um, for the right reasons, and also for the reasons that that. It’s kind of

len_herstein: you you’ve put yourself out there, and so for me accountability, especially

len_herstein: within organizations has to be effective. Has to be public. You have to be

len_herstein: drawing a line in the sand. something that people can judge you against

david_horsager: well, the book

david_horsager: is be vigilant by Len Herstein, and uh,

david_horsager: tell me this.

len_herstein: tell me what?

david_horsager: What do you? What are curious about? What do you think I know?

len_herstein: what you?

david_horsager: You’re a learner. I know you. You’re thinking about lot things, whether from

david_horsager: law enforcement or marketing and branding still have your feet in both

david_horsager: worlds. What what are you

david_horsager: curious about learning about these days?

len_herstein: Well, I mean, I’m I’m always curious about learning about how can we create

len_herstein: better relationships between. Um, you know, companies and their constituents

len_herstein: in my world. I’m I spend a lot of time because I. I’m really passionate about

len_herstein: law enforcement. Now is understanding how can we make a better relationship

len_herstein: between the community and law enforcement, And that’s why I

len_herstein: got into it, and that’s why I do this for F. I mean people think I’m nuts. I

david_horsager: Hm. Mhm,

len_herstein: go out and I patrol and I and I do all the things. Uh, but I do it for free.

len_herstein: but I do it because. Um, I got tired of being someone who is just sitting

len_herstein: there having arguments on the sidelines, and and opining away. I

len_herstein: wanted to be part of the solution and so that’s something I’m super passionate

len_herstein: about right now and I’m always learning. always learning more about how do we

len_herstein: bridge those gaps And how do we better serve

david_horsager: Well, I’m going to ask you the final question very soon, but before we get

david_horsager: there, you still run and uh brand manage camp you still, and your this

david_horsager: volunteer sheriff deputy,

david_horsager: give us the where they can find out about Len. They can find you on Lenked

david_horsager: in, but your main webite

david_horsager: Ist, and you can find all that and the show notes. Trusted Leader show dot

len_herstein: Lenherstein dot com, ▁l e, n h, e r s t, e i n dot com. You can get all

len_herstein: information about the book Um, be vigilant strategies to stop complacency and

len_herstein: improve performance and safeguard success. Available on Amazon Bars and oble

len_herstein: everywhere, Um, and then uh, you know, if you have more interest in the

len_herstein: conference, you can do also go to Brand manage Camp Dot com.

david_horsager: com Le. It has been a treat to have your aunt great to see you again. It’s

david_horsager: been a couple

len_herstein: Me too.

david_horsager: years now.

david_horsager: It’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why

len_herstein: Oh man, there’s uh. there’s so many. Um,

len_herstein: you know, I think

len_herstein: I mean the ones that are closest to me right now are are people that I work

len_herstein: with every day. But if I, if I want to think about someone who I have a lot of

len_herstein: trust in who who has been influential on? Uh, you know, especially me writing

len_herstein: my book and all those things I don’t know. Do you know Mitch Joel at all?

david_horsager: I know who he is, but I do not know him well,

len_herstein: Yeah, so he?

david_horsager: but I know you. Yeah, well from Canada, right.

len_herstein: Yeah, exactly Montreal, Uh,

david_horsager: Yep, totally don’t. Yeah. yup.

len_herstein: yeah, So Mitch,

len_herstein: Mitch is one of these guys where

david_horsager: he’s a good guy.

len_herstein: really good guy. And

david_horsager: Y. Yep,

len_herstein: you know is one of these people who, Um, when he says he’s going to do

len_herstein: something, he does it

len_herstein: and he does it without wanting anything in return, right

len_herstein: he is. C, is he’s what I would call a selfless leader, but he’. but he, you

len_herstein: know, he’s in a position where he’s not necessarily leading people in terms of

len_herstein: people that work for him. But I think he leads by example in an

len_herstein: industry. Um that needs it. And so, uh, you know, he’s someone that I

len_herstein: definitely have a lot of trust in Um, not only as a human being, but as a

len_herstein: leader. And and it’s someone who I aspire to be like,

david_horsager: Love it, Len. Thanks for connecting with our audience and sharing your wisdom.

david_horsager: wisdom. This has been the Trust the Leader show until next time if they

david_horsager: This has been trust the leader show until next time they trusted.

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