[david_horsager]: Welcome to the trusted leader. Show it’s David Horsager and I have a

[david_horsager]: special Gu. She’s a dear friend. It is Dr. Kimberly Harms. Thank you

[david_horsager]: so much for joining us.

[kim_harms]: Thank you for asking me.

[david_horsager]: Yes, so if you don’t know Dr. Kimberly, she was the first woman

[david_horsager]: president of the Minnesota dental Association. She is practicsing, and she’s

[david_horsager]: been director of Uh, dental facilities and organizations all around. She has

[david_horsager]: some other things we’re gonna talk about, though, And she really I, You

[david_horsager]: know, she’s written books on really grief emergencies mediation. One of her

[david_horsager]: books is Neutralize your Nightmare about kind of mediation and conflict.

[david_horsager]: We’re going to talk about that and emotional emergency handbook, Really

[david_horsager]: creating a safe environment in the midst of emergencies and big challenges

[david_horsager]: that we all face. And I think they’re very all very important for leaders.

[david_horsager]: We’re also going touch touch on. you know, Outside of you know being a

[david_horsager]: doctor and all your expertise as both a leader

[david_horsager]: and dentist and doctor, you’ve also

[david_horsager]: have some experiences. I think that can speak to all of us, and that is loss

[david_horsager]: and grief and challenge, And you know we’ve all had whether we’re losing in

[david_horsager]: a, you know, an employee or losing a A A comp. You know, a

[david_horsager]: a, a family member, right or all these things. So Um, she lost her mother

[david_horsager]: too early.

[david_horsager]: Tragically. She lost her brilliant amazing son to suicide and she lost her

[david_horsager]: husband, uh, too early, and, among other things, but she can speak to this

[david_horsager]: in a real way, so uh, once again I just wantnna. kind of set you up. There’s

[david_horsager]: so much more to who you are, Uh, Doctor Kim, But um, thanks for being here.

[kim_harms]: Oh, thank you, David.

[david_horsager]: anything y. go ahead? Yeah, Any anything else that you wouldd say sets

[david_horsager]: usrself, like we should really know this about Doctor Kim before get into

[david_horsager]: the conversation.

[kim_harms]: Well, I think i. I. I worked in a quite a bit in my profession of dentistry in my

[kim_harms]: first life, and I had a unfortunate a ridiculopathy of. I had some nerve damage

[kim_harms]: in my drilling fingers of all places, and so I had to kind of come into a second

[kim_harms]: career and my daughter, uh, Hilary, uh, both my daughters attorneys and they went

[kim_harms]: into deal law, so I’m working now for them in the area of Um. Dental transitions

[kim_harms]: transition from one purchaser one owner to another owner, and I work with offices

[kim_harms]: managing grief when they’ going to some sort of a catastrophic loss. If every

[kim_harms]: organization, uh, has uh, somebody going through a catastrophic loss at some time

[kim_harms]: or another, And if you, if you haven’t gone through one yet, you’re either going

[kim_harms]: to die first or lose somebody that you love. So this is a universal concept. In

[kim_harms]: fact, we’re kind of going through a global grief right now,

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: Uh with this pandemic, So I talked about grief and loss and conflict management.

[kim_harms]: Uh, within the the profession, dental, and otherwise,

[david_horsager]: I want to get into that because I, I. I, I want to end up with some um, a

[david_horsager]: line work that we both love in East Africa and we’re passionate about. but

[david_horsager]: um, let’s let’s jump into this. This. you know, we. we B. this this pandemic

[david_horsager]: this endemic now, maybe this, Uh, you know, lots of loss. lots of grief. Um,

[david_horsager]: you know we can’t get everything out of all your books out of out of this,

[david_horsager]: but I think we should talk about it because leaders need to understand this,

[david_horsager]: and yet you know what I see. The challenge for leaders at least, is they

[david_horsager]: grieving.

[david_horsager]: Theyre also

[david_horsager]: their team is grieving

[david_horsager]: and they also have pressures from the top to provide and drive the bottom

[david_horsager]: line to be around in a co. you know next quarter So Th you know there’s this

[david_horsager]: big push for certainly

[david_horsager]: humanness, and give people time off and all, and take time off and take care

[david_horsager]: of yourself. And yet they’re They’re also like, and I have to meet the The

[david_horsager]: Quarterarnings or whatever. So how can we think about that as leaders? You

[david_horsager]: know loss and grief right now. What would you be your advice?

[kim_harms]: I think one of the most important things that leaders can do right now is learn

[kim_harms]: how to lead their team through grief. Because it again. it’s a. It’s a. It’s a

[kim_harms]: pandemic of a grief right now, And

[kim_harms]: many times we believe that that the our. our goal is to accomplish a goals of

[kim_harms]: whatever our business is, And we focus on that and we kind of think the emotional

[kim_harms]: issues just take care of themselves, but they don’t. They don’t the emotional

[kim_harms]: issues that that are going on amongst our team members. The other people that

[kim_harms]: we’re working with Uh, affect their performance. Their productivity and our

[kim_harms]: ability to manage those emotional issues has a huge effect on team loyalty and

[kim_harms]: and their ability to stay with us. You know, we’ve got some some issues globally.

[kim_harms]: Uh, uh, with with employment we, we are not enough employees to to fill all the

[kim_harms]: jobs that we need them to fill, And I think

[david_horsager]: How would

[kim_harms]: one of the ways you can help them is be loyal is manage them through grief.

[david_horsager]: so? let’s get to a couple tips of. how can I actually lead my team? Or you

[david_horsager]: know help can lead them through grief?

[kim_harms]: Well, the first thing we you need to do is I, I believe you need to include

[kim_harms]: emotional emergencies, which I I call anything that’s goingnna emotionally affect

[kim_harms]: what we do we need. have a plant. just like anything else. Um, how many? How many

[kim_harms]: of you have breve in plans in your work? How many days can someone take off paid

[kim_harms]: or unta unpaid if they have a loss has to be kind of consistent. Uh. I, I really

[kim_harms]: believe that we need to talk about grief. If someone’s going through a difficult

[kim_harms]: time. we need to have a a team meeting. Maybe even before they come back to to

[kim_harms]: find out how we’re going to help them. Um, and then when they get there, ask them

[kim_harms]: how they how you can help them. You need to understand that when you, when you’re

[kim_harms]: going through grief, you might have waves of grief that come back after the after

[kim_harms]: the funeral’s over and you come back to work. you’re not all right. Typically if

[kim_harms]: it’s a catastrophic loss, you’re not all right. So you, we need to have something

[kim_harms]: within our teams where you work together to help that person get through those

[kim_harms]: times when they have a wave of grief that hits some. Uh, you have a lot of

[kim_harms]: postramatic stress that comes back and things they might be going through their

[kim_harms]: day, and all of a sudden something reminds them of their lost loved one, and Bam,

[kim_harms]: they get hit. Um. I had in our office, we had like a crying room upstairs in case

[kim_harms]: somebody uh, needed to just take a moment Uh, after a tough time and you know a

[kim_harms]: little Vizine in the room, little make up remover, Um, where you can get yourself

[kim_harms]: back together and have a plan with the team that. if that person has to take a

[kim_harms]: moment that the rest of the team kind of covers for them, but you have to plan

[david_horsager]: What do?

[kim_harms]: for equal play for those things.

[david_horsager]: Yeah? what do we? What about people that say? I mean, I’ seen leaders

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: and colleagues. Someone has a catastrophic loss.

[david_horsager]: They really,

[david_horsager]: uh, the rest of the team cares about that person, but they don’t know what

[david_horsager]: to do. they like. Should I talk to them? shouldn’t I talk to them? I’m not

[david_horsager]: an expert counselor. I feel like I would do the wrong thing. so then they

[david_horsager]: don’t say anything. What? What about the team? What? what should, or the

[david_horsager]: leader that that’s kind of of. Oh, they, a fast paced, uh tech company. Um,

[david_horsager]: you know, how do they pause enough? And what do they do to help it be okay

[david_horsager]: to, or how do they ask the right questions Or how do they be present in the

[david_horsager]: right way?

[kim_harms]: it’s interesting. C. S. Lewis has a great, ▁quote. Something to the effect that

[kim_harms]: uh, maybe we should isolate people that are grieving Uh, to a special colony like

[kim_harms]: lepers. You know, Because nobody wants to be around them. Nobody knows what to

[kim_harms]: say to them. They just they feel uncomfortable. So the first thing to to to know

[kim_harms]: is what do you say? What do you talk to? How do you? How do you talk to them?

[kim_harms]: Well, I think the first time you see someone, Certainly you need to address a

[kim_harms]: loss. Usually that’s at a funeral or a, right after the loss. During whatever Uh

[kim_harms]: officially is going on to help Uh. the grievers get through that. but when they

[kim_harms]: come back to work, the most important thing you can say to them is I am so glad

[kim_harms]: you’re here. It’s so

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[kim_harms]: good to see

[kim_harms]: you. You need to let them know that you’re glad that they’re here and then say I

[kim_harms]: know you’re going through a tough time. If there’s anything we can do to help

[kim_harms]: you. If you need a moment, just come to me. Have some sort of a signal, some sort

[kim_harms]: of a a plan that if you need a few moments, just come to me and we will help you

[kim_harms]: get through this.

[david_horsager]: what

[kim_harms]: But yeah,

[david_horsager]: did you this? Yeah, this is very G. This is great. Address it and then

[kim_harms]: Mhm,

[david_horsager]: uh, acknowledging you’,

[kim_harms]: yeah,

[david_horsager]: glad they’re back

[kim_harms]: mhm.

[david_horsager]: given. given this signaler space, how about you? I mean you, you know we’ve

[david_horsager]: been authentic. You’ve been up open about it, but your son.

[david_horsager]: you know, maybe you start with. Actually, I think we should jump to the

[david_horsager]: story of why you started books or working with books for Africa, and we, um,

[david_horsager]: some people don’t know this, but Doctor Kimberlyy was in one of our first

[david_horsager]: cohorts cohorts of certified trustd facilitators. She has her own brilliant

[david_horsager]: work, but she used some of our work even in her work in Rwanda and other

[david_horsager]: places. and um, but when you lost your son you felt like you could hardly

[david_horsager]: breathe or move or get up some days. But this kind of goes together with why

[david_horsager]: you started the work in Africa. So may we start with that and then come back

[david_horsager]: to your son, and

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: maybe some tips on how you, how you’ve made it through are making it

[kim_harms]: Yeah, I lost both my son and my mother to

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: suicide, so

[david_horsager]: H.

[kim_harms]: that is a of very. t. Any loss is traumatic, but that

[david_horsager]: Yep,

[kim_harms]: was that. just just basically, they destroyed my world when my son died and

[kim_harms]: brought back all the grief. un, uh, compensated for my mother, and so I was in a

[kim_harms]: very bad place. I didn’t think I’d ever be able to have joy my life again. I. I,

[kim_harms]: you know you can’t eat. you can’t sleep. You know all those things, you could

[kim_harms]: just hardly get through the day. but you have to go back to work right, Um, and

[kim_harms]: as I was, I’ have a dear friend who was on the board of books for Africa, and she

[kim_harms]: suggested that we uh, have a library in Rwanda, through books, Africa, a great

[kim_harms]: organization based in Minneapolis, an amazing place, and so we started.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, And that was because of you. By the way. I’m pretty sure it was

[david_horsager]: because of you originally that we sent

[kim_harms]: Yeah, yeah, I, I. I. I,

[david_horsager]: our first printings of Trust that ships and books, Uh,

[kim_harms]: with you.

[david_horsager]: cases. Yeah,

[kim_harms]: We,

[david_horsager]: that was. That’s what reminded me of your getting certified because of Uh,

[kim_harms]: right

[david_horsager]: helping us, Um start our work there. So anyway,

[kim_harms]: it. We had a group of African leaders that came to the to uh,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: Minnesota from it throughw books for Africa, and we gave them all a copy of

[kim_harms]: Trustta, So it was it was. Uh. Africa gets a lot of trust edge And I actually

[kim_harms]: gave the whole cer out there back. I was maybe seven or eight years ago. I can’t

[kim_harms]: remember even, but she, she said, Let’s get one one or one shipment out. and of

[kim_harms]: course I’m a dentist. So I went to the dental school and that there was a need

[kim_harms]: for law library there, so we were able to work through Thompson Roiders to get

[kim_harms]: law books. And we just kind of got this collection of seven libraries on our very

[kim_harms]: first shipment. And what I found. we went out to visit Rowanda. What I found is

[kim_harms]: they are the grief experts of the world.

[david_horsager]: M, mhm,

[kim_harms]: Ver Oneont had a genocide in nineteen ninety four. And I went there in two

[kim_harms]: thousand and eleven. So that was what. Sixteen years after the genocide, Not a

[kim_harms]: long time, and they had taken their country even in that short period of time

[kim_harms]: from a horrible place that was just completely shattered. The the or

[kim_harms]: organizations and institutions were were shattered. Um. it was just a shattered

[kim_harms]: chattered country. Uh, and

[kim_harms]: Um. In sixteen years they had built it back to a safe

[kim_harms]: beautiful place. Uh Cagalli was being built up. It was just unbelievable

[kim_harms]: progress. in sixteen years. Now what they did is they did it through. reconci.

[kim_harms]: they they. they, f, first of all for forgiveness. how could how do you forgive a

[kim_harms]: genocide?

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: I don’t know how you do that. Um,

[david_horsager]: and you and I met you. I remember about Father Rayme, who came

[kim_harms]: yes, y.

[david_horsager]: over and it was like you got sibling against sibling, or I mean, almost like

[david_horsager]: Fa, neighbor against

[david_horsager]: neighbor Right, Just they had been neighbors. And then how do I forgive that

[kim_harms]: it’s anance neighbor,

[david_horsager]: person who then sold me out or killed me or my dad or mom? Hm,

[kim_harms]: right, Yeah, they’d killed the entire families and burnt down all the property so

[kim_harms]: that any survivors had abs ly. Nothing the and the families combined, but what

[kim_harms]: they did is they realize that they didn’t forgive and build a new country. That

[kim_harms]: their children would be going to the same thing again again and again. and if you

[kim_harms]: look in Africa, some countries that didn’t handle things like that so well,

[kim_harms]: they’re still in that shape. but veranda has built itself up to a point right now

[kim_harms]: where it’s con. It’s a safe as our. Our. Our State Department, um, uh, rated it

[kim_harms]: as safe as going to Canada. It’s a safety level one. So if you’re if, if you feel

[kim_harms]: safe going up to Canada, then you should feel safe going to Rowanda. In fact,

[kim_harms]: when when they come to the United States, they get a little worried about safety.

[kim_harms]: But so they built this amazing country up, and I realized that they were the

[kim_harms]: experts in grief, and they helped me so much manage my grief. If they could

[kim_harms]: overcome that the genocide, losing their entire families. And then I, I need to

[kim_harms]: learn how they did that, and Um, they did it through reconciliation. They did

[kim_harms]: punish the perpetrators. They were in jail for probably about twenty years. When

[kim_harms]: they came out of jail, they had to. they had to face their communities. They had

[kim_harms]: to talk to the victims. They had to try to recommen. You know, Uh, make some sort

[kim_harms]: of recompense to the victims. Uh, they have just an amazing ability to deal with

[kim_harms]: conflict and to deal with grief and I,

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm,

[kim_harms]: it was such a blessing for me. I’m so grateful I got to go there, and now we have

[kim_harms]: over forty libraries, and Uh of over two hundred and forty thousand books. Some

[kim_harms]: computers and so on that are there. So we have a whole system built up now, Uh,

[kim_harms]: ara carmsmorial libraries, Throughw books for Africa,

[david_horsager]: And Eric is your son and

[kim_harms]: Your experience. Yeah,

[david_horsager]: yep. And and I think that whole process there is. you know, there was

[david_horsager]: punishment. but there was a way toward forgiveness

[kim_harms]: yeah,

[david_horsager]: and we might come back to some that. Tell about your son, tells about your

[david_horsager]: son.

[kim_harms]: well, Eric was an amazing young man amazing. he loved his family, loved his his

[kim_harms]: friends. he loved his god. Uh, he went to Saint Thomas Academy, which is a school

[kim_harms]: here in in Minnesota, and uh he, uh, he was a band director and he made band

[kim_harms]: cool. In fact, some of the football parents kind of complained a little bit

[kim_harms]: because it got. Uh. The band got a lot of of applause. You know, whenever goes up

[kim_harms]: there because he would dance, he was called the Dancing Bear and he was recruited

[kim_harms]: to go to Columbia University. So I went to Columbia loved it there. He was. he

[kim_harms]: was Uh, elected to student government. he was. He was a brilliant jazz pianist,

[kim_harms]: so he was in the jazz band. He was accepted into the jazz program there, and at

[kim_harms]: the end of his first semester he had. We was on the Um. deanslisted engineering,

[kim_harms]: and he was in love. He had just in love with this young woman and was on top of

[kim_harms]: the world and he went back to Columbia, and two weeks later

[kim_harms]: forty five minutes after his girlfriend broke up with him, which is she should

[kim_harms]: have done if she didn’t love him the same way. Um, he took his own life. Forty

[kim_harms]: five minutes at that brilliant impulsive brain that was great, a jazz piano was

[kim_harms]: not able and he didn’t have his full brain developed in the area of of of

[kim_harms]: rational thinking, So he

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: just impulsively took his own life, and it just absolutely was such a surprise.

[kim_harms]: and uh, uh, a devastation to his family,

[kim_harms]: and and all that loved him. He had a big group.

[david_horsager]: Yeah, he did an amazing young man. How did you?

[david_horsager]: How did you? What were some of the things that helped you start to de with

[david_horsager]: that hole in agony?

[kim_harms]: Well, I had I had someone tell me something once to nightight, which I think is

[kim_harms]: every parent uh, needs to hear that’s lost his child in. and you can only tell it

[kim_harms]: if you blss one yourself or you’re in that position. I had a a nephew who was

[kim_harms]: shortly after my husband. I were returning back to work and and we’re a dentist,

[kim_harms]: Y, you have to grieve, and in secret you can’t grieve when you’re

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: doing that fine work. I mean you, it. it’s a. It’s a hard thing to do and we’re

[kim_harms]: back at work and I was coming out of the office one night, and my husband was

[kim_harms]: standing there with his his cousin. His cousin, Carry and Carry had lost his

[kim_harms]: brother Janned, and about the same age at about nineteen, Ja, and had been out

[kim_harms]: drinking. His friends brought him back and left him in his car, thinking he’d

[kim_harms]: just walk in the house, But it’s Minnesota. It’s twenty below, ▁zero, and Jan

[kim_harms]: frozea death in his car outside of his parents. So and Carry was devastated by

[kim_harms]: the loss of his brother, but he felt that he also lost his parents. At that time,

[kim_harms]: he felt that his parents were no longer able to be themselves, and he, he said to

[kim_harms]: me, and he pointed his finger at me. And this is you know. I was grieving. This.

[kim_harms]: I was in the ▁zombie stage. Anyone that’s been through catastrophic loss knows

[kim_harms]: that ▁zobie stage, or you kind of walk around and you feel like

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: you’re dead inside and you’re trying to just make it through. I was in the ▁zobie

[kim_harms]: state and he looked at me and he pointed his finger at me and he said Kim. Don’t

[kim_harms]: you ever let your remaining kids feel that they are not enough?

[kim_harms]: It was like a lightning bolt and that was the beginning of my realizing that I

[kim_harms]: had to do everything

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Hm,

[kim_harms]: in my power to crawl, climb and find my way out of that horrible despair pit. And

[kim_harms]: that was

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: the beginning And it, you know, it’s a journey. It takes long. you can’t. Grief

[kim_harms]: the beginning And it, you know, it’s a journey. It takes long. you can’t. Grief

[kim_harms]: is different with every person, but that’s when I, I just, and my husband had

[kim_harms]: is different with every person, but that’s when I, I just, and my husband had

[kim_harms]: just had a liver transplant. He had liver cancer, had liver transplant. He was

[kim_harms]: just had a liver transplant. He had liver cancer, had liver transplant. He was

[kim_harms]: struggling, you know, physically and emotionally, and so I had to go and I had to

[kim_harms]: struggling, you know, physically and emotionally, and so I had to go and I had to

[kim_harms]: climb my way out of that pit and that

[kim_harms]: climb my way out of that pit and that

[david_horsager]: What were some of the? What were some of the wrongs of that ladder of

[david_horsager]: climbing out?

[kim_harms]: well, First of all, I have a strong faith and so

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: that my faith helped me get through. but I think

[kim_harms]: understanding the love for my children, the love for my husband,

[kim_harms]: knowing that they needed me,

[kim_harms]: knowing that I, I c, staying in this pit forever, W would would is a horrible

[kim_harms]: place to live. If you’ve been in that pit, I didn’t want to live there the rest

[kim_harms]: of my life, and I didn’t want the people around me to influent be influenced by

[kim_harms]: my time in the pit. I wanted

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: to crawl out of that and and sh, show that you can overcome these things. And it

[kim_harms]: it took a long time. Uh, And and there’s a I. I did become a grief counselor.

[kim_harms]: Actually, uh, uh, Surely, after that and I learned one of the things I learned.

[kim_harms]: Uh, you know they, we. We all know the the stages of grief, but there are tasks

[kim_harms]: de mourning, and I like tasks better cause. I like to grib onto tasks. The task

[kim_harms]: of warning are to accept the loss that takes a long time,

[kim_harms]: and then to uh, take a look uh at your life as it is. you know process. The grief

[kim_harms]: processing is the hard part that’s getting out of the pit process and grief, uh,

[kim_harms]: adjusting to the new world, a catastrophic lost of ider world into before and

[kim_harms]: after and you have to adjust to the new life and then find a place to put your

[kim_harms]: love one in your heart, but move forward in your life, and and be present for the

[kim_harms]: people that are there, And those tasks were, Um, a learning that was important,

[kim_harms]: too, So all of that combined, I just made it my goal to get out of the pit. I

[david_horsager]: Mhmm,

[kim_harms]: didn’t let the pit overcome me, because it will. I think if you don’t fight it,

[kim_harms]: it overcomes you, and you’re stuck down there in that pits with one nostril

[kim_harms]: sticking out of the mud trying to

[kim_harms]: get through.

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Did you have help? I mean, I think I could hear a lot of people saying

[david_horsager]: Okay, that’s great, but I am in the pit. I don’t know what to do and I don’t

[david_horsager]: feel like getting out. I mean they are so thinking about themselves like I

[david_horsager]: know my family, my husband and my wife, whoever needs you, but I, I can’t

[david_horsager]: you know they going to stay in Be whatever it is. How did you either fight

[david_horsager]: or or did you have help?

[kim_harms]: I I should. okay. Im. I’m I’m a dentist and one of our problems as dentist, as we

[kim_harms]: think we know everything you know it. it’s it’s it’s it’s It’s a a fatal flaw in

[kim_harms]: in

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: me, so I, instead of going to a grief counsel, I became a grief counselor, so I,

[kim_harms]: I. I used education to get myself out of pet. Now I had pastors in my church. I

[kim_harms]: have friends, wonderful friends. I have all the things necessary to help me, but

[kim_harms]: I want to say to those people that are under the bed that it is much better even

[kim_harms]: for you if you have no one else in your life but you, that you are enough and it

[kim_harms]: is so much better to be out of that pit, and to be above the ground and to see

[kim_harms]: the light than to be in that pit. It’s a horrible place to live, so even for

[kim_harms]: yourself, it’s important to climb out of that pit and fight to get out of the pit

[kim_harms]: and have that motivation. I know that not everyone can do it, and I know that

[kim_harms]: there are some people that are there for life. but I would just like to encourage

[kim_harms]: everyone. no matter where you are to climb. crawl, get yourself out of the pit

[kim_harms]: and to know that finding joy again in life does not diminish your love for the

[kim_harms]: person that you lost. In fact, I think that it that person. If you, if if you

[kim_harms]: love that person and that person of you, they would not want you to be in the pit

[kim_harms]: for life. So no matter who you have around you for yourself, even climb and crawl

[kim_harms]: out of that pit. It’s a terrible place to live.

[david_horsager]: So this, this is all. There is more about this in Doctor Kim’s book

[david_horsager]: Emotional emergency Handbook For how to do this at work and deal with that.

[david_horsager]: I want to jump to something else before I do anything else you would say for

[david_horsager]: just how we should address grief in the workplace. Any last tip to this

[kim_harms]: I think as to address you know, address it. Um, let the person know that you’re

[david_horsager]: part,

[kim_harms]: thinking of them. Talk to the person one on one. Even little things like Uh,

[kim_harms]: bringing him a coffee in the morning, show them that you’re thinking about them

[kim_harms]: by little deeds. You know, bringing them coffee do something nice. Um, those

[kim_harms]: things are really helpful. They just want you. They just want to know that you

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Hm,

[kim_harms]: care. Also,

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: one thing that I think people don’t re realize is we love when you tell stories

[kim_harms]: about our loved one. I loved it when people would, uh, people from the band are

[kim_harms]: ▁quizzable. Or you know whatever organization Eric was in would write these

[kim_harms]: stories about how you helped them. I love those stories and especially in a card.

[kim_harms]: writing them in a card. Sometimes the people that are grieving, don’t you? I

[kim_harms]: don’t remember much about that first year. You lose your memory a bit. I mean,

[kim_harms]: your brain’s not working. Those cards are fabulous. Write them a card and and

[kim_harms]: tell ‘ how much you care about them. A nice story about their loved one. They

[kim_harms]: just need to know you’re there.

[david_horsager]: How much care about them in a story, but even think of people in my life

[david_horsager]: that have that have passed away at a reasonable age. Eighty six, six, or or

[david_horsager]: so my grand. But I remember, I loved hearing the stories about who she was

[david_horsager]: and seeing who you know. Might you know? I’ve got some my dad’s ninety two

[david_horsager]: now, and I just um, I think, keep keeping telling the story about especially

[david_horsager]: those young lives that were gone so early that people could quickly not hear

[david_horsager]: or could could forget. So emotional emergency handbook. All of this is at

[david_horsager]: the dental mediator Dot com. Want to jump over to some insights from your

[david_horsager]: other book. We could talk about all kinds of things today, leadership and

[david_horsager]: dentistry, and Rwanda. more. we are lined on some things there, but I I do

[david_horsager]: want to talk about, because you do have a a significant expertise even in

[david_horsager]: what you’re doing now in dealing with conflict and mediation, and a lot of

[david_horsager]: O. Obviously we talk about is building trust or being trusted. Even in the

[david_horsager]: midst of certain conflict. We will, certain you know we say conflict is

[david_horsager]: inevitable, But maybe you could you know. Let’s just take this and look at

[david_horsager]: work a little bit. How? what are some tips on dealing with conflict? We all

[david_horsager]: have it. There’s conflict everywhere in these. whether it’s offices or

[david_horsager]: company or teams. What are some things you could share with us to to to help

[david_horsager]: us stay trusted in the midst of conflict.

[kim_harms]: The biggest thing right now in our country, For sure is when there is a conflict,

[kim_harms]: there is a tendency amongst people to focus on the people in the conflict and not

[kim_harms]: the issue itself. Just look at the media when there’ even a political issue.

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: Instead of of looking at the pros and cons of the issue, they start talking about

[kim_harms]: the people, and one side is good and one side is evil. This is kind of how we are

[kim_harms]: doing things more and more in the United States. I think it’s a very bad trend,

[kim_harms]: because the most important that one of the most important things in conflict

[kim_harms]: management is to focus on the conflict. Focus on the issue. Take the people out

[kim_harms]: of it, because don’t assume people have evil intentions. Just say here is a

[kim_harms]: conflict. Here’s the issue. How do we solve it? Find the common ground and work

[kim_harms]: on solving the problem. Rid of your uh feelings about the people involved. focus

[kim_harms]: on the problem.

[david_horsager]: how do you tip? By the way? getting rid of the people? I mean, wouldn’t this

[david_horsager]: be amazing in our and everything

[kim_harms]: Mhm.

[david_horsager]: else?

[david_horsager]: What about mediation you’re having to be? Play the role of mediator. What

[david_horsager]: are some of the key um parts of mediating these kind of challenging

[david_horsager]: situations you and I’ve talked about, or you’ve had you know between offices

[david_horsager]: or future, or um, um,

[david_horsager]: y, you know. uh, I’m losing the word with an as the the next next, uh, G,

[david_horsager]: passing it on to the next generation. the the Um. You know, if you, you

[david_horsager]: moving leadership to somebody else, Everybody’ thinking of it for

[kim_harms]: transition

[david_horsager]: me. But yeah, yeah, that’s that’s one way. Um.

[kim_harms]: words, too.

[david_horsager]: yeah, So what? uh? what?

[david_horsager]: how are you dealing with? How do you going to go into mediation? You know,

[david_horsager]: there’s fierce bitterness or there. you know that people are against each

[david_horsager]: other. Um.

[david_horsager]: What? what do you start with?

[kim_harms]: The first thing I I try to do is I, I get the story from both sides,

[kim_harms]: get one side,

[kim_harms]: and then I get the other side and I try to take a look at those stories and and

[kim_harms]: find out where the commonalities are. Where is a common ground? I try to get rid

[kim_harms]: of the people and focus

[david_horsager]: Mhm?

[kim_harms]: on what is the issue. What’s a common ground? How how can you benefit? How can

[kim_harms]: you benefit? and and then get them talking about the issue rather than Uh, the

[kim_harms]: people. Now sometimes you’ll find that there might be an issue that comes up.

[kim_harms]: That’s not the real issue. You know, there might be initi that comes up saying,

[kim_harms]: In office, somebody gets angry with something in the office. What they what you

[kim_harms]: might find is that that. really? that’s not the full issue. The issue is that two

[kim_harms]: months ago one person felt disrespected by somebody else

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: and conflict that is not resolved or addressed, just matastazes.

[david_horsager]: Hm,

[kim_harms]: So taking care of those conflicts when they’re little before it is a build and

[kim_harms]: build a build, and then suddenly there’s an explosion and then they have

[david_horsager]: Mhm.

[kim_harms]: to call the media, But’ common ground is listening to both sides of the story.

[kim_harms]: It’s being a third person to to con. maybe come in and and ask some questions.

[kim_harms]: Ask some questions that are.

[david_horsager]: What are your favorite? Quite? What are some of your Fa? By the way? The

[david_horsager]: word I, I always say it just jumped in my head. succession planning

[david_horsager]: succession. When I got you know succession issues. Lots of those happening.

[kim_harms]: Um.

[david_horsager]: Yeah, but um, but what? what are some questions you like to ask as a

[david_horsager]: mediator?

[kim_harms]: Well, I think, Um, and I think that the one of the best questions is Um. Why do

[kim_harms]: you think that’s happening or what is going on here? You know just those basic

[kim_harms]: basic questions is. so. Um, what? what do you want to see happen? What if? if you

[kim_harms]: could, if you could pick a resolution, what would your resolution be? And then I

[kim_harms]: would ask the other person if you could pick a resolution. what would your

[kim_harms]: resolution be? And then you know they, It might be similar,

[david_horsager]: I love that gets the. Yeah,

[kim_harms]: but they might,

[david_horsager]: It gets them solution centered about it. It gets something about the.

[david_horsager]: Instead of like I hate I, This, this is like. Well, what would I really

[david_horsager]: want? Well, maybe it’s not such a high bar. you know, Hm.

[kim_harms]: and sometimes it’s just respect. I just want her to treat me with respect that

[kim_harms]: that

[david_horsager]: yeah,

[kim_harms]: might be yet. and then, once you get over that hurdle of the lack of respect or

[kim_harms]: lack of trust, trust is trust is huge because if you, I ba,

[kim_harms]: I’m trying to think of a time that I did a mediation where two people actually

[kim_harms]: trusted each other. It’s almost like my mediations. Are there? Mediator is kept

[kim_harms]: busy because of lack of trust, because

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: people assume the worst in other people. Usually, people that trust each other

[kim_harms]: will work out a deal themselves. They

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: don’t need a mediator to come in, so that’s um. Youd put us out of business, you

[kim_harms]: know, but but I

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: uh you. yeah, but

[david_horsager]: well, there’s the Gu. There’s the cost of a lack of trust, we say, a lack of

[david_horsager]: trust in the biggest cost they have. Well, one

[kim_harms]: right.

[david_horsager]: is a mediator and one is and

[kim_harms]: that’s

[david_horsager]: that costs time and it costs money and it costs all these things. So no

[kim_harms]: right. and my daughters are lawyer. They be out of. they be out too. No, they

[david_horsager]: doubt about,

[kim_harms]: were. they work mostly in and good good law. They you know they work. They bring

[kim_harms]: people together for transitions and things like that. Um, but yeah, so I think

[kim_harms]: that you know be people that that that lack trust typically don’t need to mean or

[kim_harms]: that that have trust typically don’t need a mediator,

[david_horsager]: Well, there’s a lot more. If you go to the dental mediator Dot com, the

[david_horsager]: dental mediator Dot com, you can find out about Doctor Kim’s books.

[david_horsager]: Neutralize your nightmare. If you’re looking at conflict and mediation, you

[david_horsager]: can also find emotional emergency handbook. and if you’re a leader, you need

[david_horsager]: to know what to do. so that’s a good place to find that. Um. find out more.

[david_horsager]: I have loved our friendship and thank you for making me better. I want to

[david_horsager]: jump in a little bit here to personal, because you know, Um, I found at

[david_horsager]: least the leaders that are leading others and have a voice. and you’re

[david_horsager]: speaking on platforms all over, including all the way to Rowanda. that

[david_horsager]: they’re leading themselves in some way. Well, and certainly we’re not

[david_horsager]: perfect. But what are some? Do you have some habits or routines that you

[david_horsager]: kind of do every day Like I always do this for whether it’s for my mental

[david_horsager]: health, physical health, spiritual health, or other things. Are there some

[david_horsager]: habits that you like this? It really helps me on a daily basis as a leader.

[kim_harms]: I, for me, the most important habit in one I had to work at is intentional

[kim_harms]: listening. As a mediaor, I had to intentionally listen. That that taught me how

[kim_harms]: to do that. I, I tend to be, try to be a problem, sovereign and solve people’s

[kim_harms]: problems before they actually ask me to, so intentional listening. I, I have to

[kim_harms]: focus on that and intentionally do it.

[david_horsager]: Hm. Hm.

[david_horsager]: Love that. What’s what? What’s motivating you these days? You’ you get to

[david_horsager]: work with your daughters here in this kind of later work Chapter. And you’re

[david_horsager]: having a ball. But are there some things you? Uh, what’s what’s next for

[david_horsager]: Doctor Kimer, What are you thinking about and hoping for down the road?

[kim_harms]: Well, the thing that motivates me most. I have six grandchildren. Oh, my gosh,

[kim_harms]: life is great with grandchildren. They are the best and I think that as I look at

[kim_harms]: at how the world is going and what I’m doing. Uh, they motivate me to to just

[kim_harms]: keep on going, and and being to remain active and keep healthy, Because, Um, you

[kim_harms]: know you can’t replace me as a grandma. You replace me as a speaker, you replace

[kim_harms]: me of other things, but you can’t replace me as a ternal grandmother to those six

[kim_harms]: grandkids.

[david_horsager]: When’s your next trip back to Awanda?

[kim_harms]: Well, we’re planning one, maybe in well, March, or or June. You know, we’re

[kim_harms]: waiting for this whole uh cobat situation, Uh, to kind of calm down a little bit.

[kim_harms]: I, the last time I was there I, I, I think I took one of the last planes out. I

[kim_harms]: was there in

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: March of two thousand and twenty. Not a good time. Um, but it was great. I had a

[kim_harms]: great time in Rhwana. brought my niece. We had a wonderful time at getting out

[kim_harms]: with hard, Um, and they, and they’re actually very um, very careful. Rwanda is a

[kim_harms]: very low um. prevalence

[david_horsager]: Mhm, Mhm, Yeah, how many libraries now have you helped?

[kim_harms]: Over forty. Right

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: now we have over forty libraries. And uh, we just brought in another law library

[kim_harms]: and I’m working with the dental school and working with a number of dental

[kim_harms]: speakers to go out and give virtual courses there, which is fabulous

[david_horsager]: hm,

[kim_harms]: with the internet. You can have the Y in virtual courses. It’s amazing what you

[kim_harms]: could bring, you know

[david_horsager]: Mhm,

[kim_harms]: when you’re not even there. It’s just fabulous.

[david_horsager]: Well, I’ve I’ve I’ve written on it as you know. The, uh, the whole

[david_horsager]: rebuilding of trust and Rwanda, and I just think it’s an amazing story of

[david_horsager]: how trust is built when it when it just such tragic situation of neighbor

[david_horsager]: against neighbor, And there’s so so much of a great case study. They’ve done

[david_horsager]: imperfectly as we all are, but we could all learn something from that story

[kim_harms]: I think we should. All our leaders should go there as a

[david_horsager]: after.

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: part of their their education. To send all our leadings over there. Let them

[david_horsager]: yep,

[kim_harms]: have a little talk.

[david_horsager]: after the Geno set absolutely,

[kim_harms]: Yeah,

[david_horsager]: let’s do it well, Doctor H Kim. this has been a privilege and uh for

[david_horsager]: everybody out there that wants to know more. you know. it’s Doctor, Just D

[david_horsager]: R. Kimberlely harms dot Com or the dental mediator dot com. It’s the trusted

[david_horsager]: leadership or excuse me, it’s a trust the leader show, Doctor Kim. So I

[david_horsager]: always ask the final question. And that is who is a leader you trust And

[david_horsager]: why?

[kim_harms]: well, Billy Graham, I mean,

[david_horsager]: H.

[kim_harms]: he walked the walk, talk, the talk, walk the walk. He was just an amazing leader

[kim_harms]: and I, I.

[kim_harms]: I just trust him more than

[david_horsager]: Yeah,

[kim_harms]: anybody,

[david_horsager]: thank you. it’s been a treat to be back together. This has been the trusted

[david_horsager]: leadership show. I’m having trouble. I’m goingnna have to have you cut that

[david_horsager]: Kent. He’s got to cut all this at the end. I don’t know why I’m saying

[david_horsager]: leadership all the time. He’ll cut this up. Okay, I’m going to go back to

[david_horsager]: it. Hey, it has been a treat to be back together, Doctor Kim. This has Ben,

[david_horsager]: the trusted leader show until next time. Stay trusted.