Ep. 29: Dave Cornell on Why You Should Be Courageous But NOT Fearless

In this episode, David sits down with Dave Cornell, Founder of Cultivate Courage, LLC, Speaker, Coach, and Trainer, to discuss why you should be courageous but NOT fearless.

Buy David’s NEW book: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

Sponsored by Sourcewell

Dave’s Bio:
Dave is the founder of Cultivate Courage, LLC. Dave’s business is focused on three areas; Speaking, Coaching and Training. Dave’s powerful presentation, Cultivate Courage, focuses on fear, change and courage and how they affect individuals and organizations, is well received by audiences and has been a launching pad for performance development and personal improvement. His training focuses on the DISC behavioral profile, effective communication and conflict resolution. Dave also serves as the Senior Consultant with David Horsager’s Trust Edge Leadership Institute. Dave and his wife, Amy, have been married for 39 years. They immensely enjoy time with their two grown daughters, son-in-law and four grandchildren. He also enjoys golf, basketball, and anything with a comedic bent.

Dave’s Links:
Website: http://cultivatecourage.com/
“Cultivate Courage” by Dave Cornell: https://amzn.to/3bjQjrQ
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cultivatecourage
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cultivatecourag
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ddcornell/

Key Quotes:
1. “Reading is one of the things I’ve embraced.”
2. “Reading and exercise are huge.”
3. “I love to help people have ah-ha moments.”
4. “I love helping people get better.”
5. “It’s important to ask open ended questions.”
6. “So much of what we do in our lives are defaults. We just act and react because that’s the way we’ve always done.”
7. “Anytime we step out, we grow.”
8. “Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway.” – John Wayne
9. “This is not about becoming fearless.”
10. “If we strive to become fearless we’re never going to do anything.”
11. “It’s about recognizing the need to be courageous.”
12. “Never underestimate the value of a crisis.”
13. “Courage is about taking steps, not knowing what the second step is going to be.”
14. “Courage is stepping into our fear not knowing what’s next.”
15. “This irrational fear that holds us back is selfish.”
16. “You need to visit with trusted people.”
17. “When we live in fear, it holds us captive.”
18. “One of the simple steps in this process is recognizing the power of the word maybe.”
19. “It’s all about the mindset.”
20. “A lot of the reason that people don’t want to give deadlines is because then they have to hold people accountable.”
21. “Fear calls us to be spectators, courage calls us to get in the game.”

Links Mentioned In The Episode:
“Dream Big” by Bob Goff: https://amzn.to/33BhZUw
“The Five Dysfunctions of a Team” by Patrick Lencioni: https://amzn.to/3ogv1Rf
“Win The Day” by Mark Batterson: https://amzn.to/3tAnUnI
“The One Year Uncommon Life Daily Challenge” by Tony Dungy: https://amzn.to/3f9SS0t
“Cultivate Courage” by Dave Cornell: https://amzn.to/3bjQjrQ
Top 20 Training: https://top20training.com/

Buy David’s NEW book Trusted Leader: https://www.trustedleaderbook.com/

David’s Links:
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Show Transcript

David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager, we have a special guest today. He’s a dear friend of mine. He’s been a senior trust edge consultant, he’s

David Horsager: created his own business all around courage, he’s paid played professional basketball in Europe. He’s a grandfather of husband and he’s a friend and really an influencer of many. Thank you so much for being on today. Dave Cornell.

Dave Cornell: David, it is such an honor and pleasure to be with you. I am so looking forward to our conversation today.

David Horsager: Likewise, I am, this is going to be super fun and before the end of the day, we’re going to look at something very specific

David Horsager: Around courage and how you can be a more courageous leader. And certainly, you know, people often ask me,

David Horsager: As far as trust is a you talk about those seeds that came out of the research, those, those eight sees those eight pillars of trust, if there’s another. See, what would it be and I said immediately, it would be courage it takes courage.

David Horsager: To build trust often and just to lead well and be a trusted leader. So we’re going to jump into that, but before we do a look. Let’s let people know you a little bit. Tell us three things that we should know about Dave Cornell.

Dave Cornell: Wow, three things that you should know about me is I guess I’m a family guy that I think is one, first and foremost, one of the things that I love.

Dave Cornell: I’m a husband of my wife, Amy. We’ve got two daughters Sarah and Caitlin our son in law Tyler and then we’ve got four grandkids Halle Josiah Troy and Theo.

Dave Cornell: And they are all the the joys and the loves of my life. I am a believer. I’m a Christian. And that first and foremost is really what guides me and

Dave Cornell: Directs my paths in everything that I do and then I’m, I’m a big sports fan and I’m a guy that loves to laugh. I’m kind of a humor snob. I’ll say.

Dave Cornell: It takes a lot to make me laugh and and but I I love to laugh. And so I think those are I think I might have given you, for there, but hopefully that’s okay.

David Horsager: That’s good you are, and you’re a fun guy and what people don’t know about you, and I’ve said this often I think he’s the best leadership coach in the country and

David Horsager: Dave Cornell. In fact, we were just talking about me and Dave, you still work with us. And even though you run your own business and you still do.

David Horsager: For our clients help solve some of the biggest trust challenges they have and you in fact just yesterday, we got a sincere testimonial from the dean of a widely known.

David Horsager: Big prestigious university in the United States, a just a testimonial of the work you’ve done with some of their senior leaders that have been immensely impactful and of course you’ve been on

David Horsager: Many of our projects. A lot of our work with our enterprise trust index, a big project with a global

David Horsager: Pharmaceutical that just had a merger and is working on building trust and you’ve been intimately involved in that trust edge product and you but

David Horsager: You know, I could talk about all these projects I’ve seen the testimonials, which is why we we keep meeting you and wanting you to be on these products, but you’ve been a friend and I’m proud of that and grateful for that. And your coaching has made me better so

David Horsager: You know, we talked about trust and and we talked about being a trusted leader.

David Horsager: And a lot of times that starts with our own habits. These little things we do. What are some things you kind of make sure you do

David Horsager: You know you a seasoned leader. You’ve been a big companies, you’ve created your own company or an entrepreneur, but what what are the things you do to to be a high trust leader every day.

Dave Cornell: You know, I think when it comes to habits reading is one of the, one of the things that I’ve really embraced over the last several years, I’ve always been a

Dave Cornell: Reader, but really have embraced it these last several years, and looking for books that

Dave Cornell: That challenge me that helped me to grow and I’m there’s some people that I love to read Bob golf is one of the guys that I love to read Patrick len Sione is another one mark Batson Tony Dungy, those are some of my favorite authors that

Dave Cornell: That their, their books that are fun to read, but they also challenge me and they helped me to grow.

Dave Cornell: One thing I haven’t done as well as I would like to over the last several years, but I’m getting into it more and more now is exercise and I am I just got back a little bit ago from

Dave Cornell: A two and a half mile walk. We’re at about 30 degrees here right now up in Fergus Falls, Minnesota, but to get outside and get some exercise and some fresh air.

Dave Cornell: Really clears my mind and helps me to process the things that I’m reading process, the people that I’m coaching and and so those I think really are two of the habits that have been very helpful for me reading an exercise are huge.

David Horsager: Funny about the walking. I said this on a different episode but you know when I lost the 52 pounds in five and a half months about a decade ago and I’ve kept most of it off.

David Horsager: One person inspired me was an executive coach that said the best exercise for you, David will be actually walking

David Horsager: Not, you know, a lot of building the best exercises swimming, and I certainly like to swim now and do triathlons some of these kind of things but

David Horsager: Back then he’s like, start by walking and walking with weights, specifically, he believes cross country skiing is the best exercise. There is even though he was the most highly decorated UCLA swim coach for

David Horsager: You know, like 56 national champions something crazy like that. He said, walking. Walking with weights, getting the weight above your heart so

David Horsager: I was one of those crazy guys for a long time that look walked around with weights above my, you know, but pumping little, little 510 pound weights, but walking is so great a forever activities. Certainly.

Dave Cornell: Well thank you David for that tip on on with the weights, because that’s something I’m not doing and can incorporate very easily.

David Horsager: Well, he talked about 60% more a heart health by just getting away even your hand above your heart so

David Horsager: Interesting idea he recommends five pound weights. I’ve gotten up to where I like to do 10 or eight, but, um, you know, I can go quite a while that way. And I do some different things with them than my switch it up with

David Horsager: My hands but but anyway, it’s a good idea and he made a big impact on my

David Horsager: Life change.

Dave Cornell: Yeah.

David Horsager: You know, living healthier for sure. So love that, you know, my parents 91 dad’s 91 know up on the farm. But they go, what I call them and mom will set you know every, every morning I mama. Yep. I just got back from my four and a half mile walk

David Horsager: Yeah. Well, I just got back from my two and half mile walk, you know, so it seems to work for people

David Horsager: Yeah. Anyways, certainly, so

David Horsager: Yeah, let’s go to that reading you know sometimes I have the quote and in speeches where at least at one point when I did the research or saw the research, you know, the average hours.

David Horsager: A person who watches TV annually, which is usually kind of not that great of input 1200 and 87 annually average number of books and American reads in their lifetime, at least over 200 pages where it’s not just a kid book when you’re putting the kids the night night, you know, was one

David Horsager: Every after their after their after their formal education was done whether that was I school degree or PhD and

David Horsager: You know that that reading that’s can be such good input. The late famous Charlie Jones said you’re gonna be the exact same person today.

David Horsager: In five years as you are today except for the people you surround yourself with the books you read, so

David Horsager: There’s other ways to get input electronically today but books are certainly one of the best thought out, you know, valuable places to gain gain insight and we’re going to get into the book that you’ve written, but

David Horsager: Tell us about when you know that habits hard for people because it’s not a neat. You don’t have to do it, you have to eat, you have to sleep.

David Horsager: When do you carve out time in your busy schedule as an entrepreneur consultant, a grandparent. And when you when you carve out time to do it. What’s the discipline there.

Dave Cornell: You know I’m fortunate to be part of a mastermind group every Wednesday morning where we go through a different book every month. And so it’s a book that’s selected for our group, there’s

Dave Cornell: Six to eight of us, depending on on the Wednesday night, everybody’s always able to join us.

Dave Cornell: But that has been a great discipline for me, knowing that we’re going to discuss

Dave Cornell: Whatever chapters were assigned for that week. And so it’s a matter for me probably three or four nights a week where I’ll just sit down in the living room.

Dave Cornell: And start reading my book and I’ll depending on how much time I’ll have, but it’s it’s just, again, it’s my wife and I were empty nesters. And so we’ve got time in these coven times in particular.

Dave Cornell: Rather than turning on the TV. And I’m not saying that I never do that. I do. But I always try to carve out, you know, some time three or four nights a week to read

David Horsager: I love it. That also speaks to accountability and you and I both have seen the same statistic, which if you have a goal you have 10% chance of accomplishing

David Horsager: If you have a goal with accountability of 95% chance of accomplishing it you’ve got that accountability built in every week to get

David Horsager: Better and

David Horsager: I love that. And it you even I’m sure the value goes even up because you discuss it.

Dave Cornell: Oh, without question, and it’s it’s with people who obviously are looking at the book from their perspectives, so they they

Dave Cornell: share insights with me. Maybe that I didn’t pick up and that discussion, as you mentioned, David is so huge in in helping us to build each other up and encourage each other up and and to pick up insights that maybe we missed

David Horsager: Love it. What motivates you. These days to do the work you’re doing.

Dave Cornell: Wow, that’s an interesting question and and it goes back, you know, we talked before about the coaching. One of the things that I love to do in my work is I help. I love to help people have aha moments.

Dave Cornell: And in the coaching that we do around the trust edge book, there are people that that as I go into the coaching with them and ask them questions.

Dave Cornell: It has happened. Virtually every time, or I get people to go, wow. I’d never thought of that before and I love helping people.

Dave Cornell: Get better. And for me that’s what I’m passionate about and when, when people can start to see things in a different way.

Dave Cornell: That’s what drives me and what what motivates me is, is to help people to get better and to help people help people to see things in a different way and to overcome things that they may be thought that they could never overcome.

David Horsager: What does that look like what’s, what’s it, what is it to be a great coach, because, you know, I see the feedback when we, you know, I know the trust work, but the way you coach it

David Horsager: How do you, how do you get the best. How do you help them have an aha moment that actually has some, you know, people throw transformation. Transformation. But, you know, we’ve seen real transformation. We’ve seen that happen, how do you actually help create a petri dish where that can happen.

Dave Cornell: You know, it’s an interesting thing, Dave, one of the, one of the things that I like to do with every coaching client is I like to start with the disc behavioral profile.

Dave Cornell: What that does is it helps me to see how the person I’m coaching how they view the world. And then as I coach them. I can ask them questions based on how they see the world.

Dave Cornell: And help them to recognize that not everybody else sees the world, the very same way that they do. And that really is an eye opener for people. I know the first time that I took the disc. When I was 32 years old.

Dave Cornell: Wow, it was a smack upside the head and and I thought at that point in time. If you didn’t see the world the way that I saw.

Dave Cornell: That you were wrong and you needed to get with the program.

Dave Cornell: And so that’s why I like the disc is because it helps people to recognize. Oh, that there are different ways to see the world that different people see it differently.

Dave Cornell: And so it helps me to coach them, give them a better coaching process because I can help them to begin to see how they see the world and that not everybody else sees it in the same way.

Dave Cornell: Then it comes down to listening and asking really good questions. So I think those are the keys for me.

David Horsager: So as a coach that helps people transform and certainly, you got to have the right content. We believe in this trust content we but how we do it. Any other tips on

David Horsager: If I’m whether it’s my daughter or my executive or my manager. Any other tips on whether it’s specifically you know questions I asked her, kind of a framework. Anything else on what I could do to be a better coach as a trusted leader.

Dave Cornell: You know, I think so much of it comes down to, like, specifically when we’re talking about the kinds of questions we ask

Dave Cornell: It’s, it’s important to ask obviously open ended questions so that you give people

Dave Cornell: The opportunity to really start to dig deep and a question. I love to ask. And I remember when I was going through my coaching certification. They told us never ask why.

Dave Cornell: And I believe that that’s one of the best questions that we can ask, because it really puts people in a position where they have to start to dig deeper. So much of what we do in our lives.

Dave Cornell: Our defaults. We just act and react, because that’s the way that we’ve always done and we don’t think about why we do things the way that we do them.

Dave Cornell: And so I think it’s about asking good open ended questions and then beginning to challenge and go deeper with people and asking people, again, another great question.

Dave Cornell: How do you feel about that. How do you think the other person feels about how do you think the people that report to you feel when you respond in that way.

Dave Cornell: So I think getting those feeling questions which are hard for a lot of people to to process and to respond to. But those are the things that I like to do as a coach.

David Horsager: You know, you just maybe jump back to about a decade ago got invited to Larry King’s home you know many of our younger generation. Probably my producer over here can’t won’t even know that name.

David Horsager: But at the time, you know, he’s one of the he was the most known journalist in the world.

David Horsager: And I’m there with a few leaders in his amazing, you know, I think Rodale drive and wherever it was there in California and

David Horsager: We’re, we’re gathering in his living room gathered in his living room and you know we get to ask him a few questions. I remember the question said

David Horsager: You know, you know you are known as the best question asked her in the world. I mean, you’re the greatest journalist in the world. You’ve, you’ve interviewed every president than every you know that you can’t couldn’t find somebody he hadn’t interviewed. It was a

David Horsager: Saturday right on Larry King Live and what’s your, what’s your favorite question to ask. And without hesitation Larry said why

Dave Cornell: Wow.

David Horsager: Yeah, I said, because why motivates people

David Horsager: Yeah why shows their purpose why gets under their, their kind of their motivation for for all the other things. So he said, Now, as you know, in my work on clarity, I believe the greatest question to take an idea to an action is how

David Horsager: Yes, but the motivating question is the why so fun to hear you say that. You gotta, you gotta if you’re going to coach people got to know their motivations. Right.

Dave Cornell: Yeah, exactly.

Dave Cornell: Exactly right.

David Horsager: Yeah, so you’re big on helping people get better and I want to especially get your courage work in a moment. But how are you getting better, these days.

Dave Cornell: Well, I think one of the real blessings for me, David has been working with you and the work

Dave Cornell: The work that I’ve had the opportunity to do with the pharmaceutical company that you reference has really helped me to grow because I’ve been doing stuff for you that I’ve not done in the past.

Dave Cornell: So I’m digging deeper into the trust work as I prepare for the presentations that I’m doing.

Dave Cornell: So that’s been tremendous and helping me grow the book club that I that I mentioned earlier, has been a tremendous

Dave Cornell: Benefit to me and helping me to grow as I look at one of the projects that I’m working on right now is creating an online course for myself.

Dave Cornell: And that again is taking me to places that make me uncomfortable and are requiring me to grow and do things that I don’t, I’m not comfortable doing. And anytime we step out

Dave Cornell: We we grow. And so I’ve been fortunate with the work I’m doing with you with my mastermind group and now with this project that I’m working on those are things that are helping me to grow right now.

David Horsager: Love it. Well, Dave Cornell everybody that knows you other than a really fun guy a really tall guy a really great guy.

David Horsager: If they were going to put one word.

David Horsager: Today, granola, I would say, Dave Cornell knows courage and your the courage expert you’ve written this book. Everybody can find it and go to Amazon. It’s cultivate courage and so I want to jump into this a little bit. Tell us where this came from.

Dave Cornell: You know, I lost my job back in January of 2010 so 11 years ago now and at the time I didn’t realize how bad the economy was. That was the the recession time December to 2008 to 2012 2013

Dave Cornell: I thought I’d find a job pretty quickly. But I, I didn’t. My wife lost her job 13 months later, over the course of that time I

Dave Cornell: was diagnosed with situational depression and with the help of a Wonderful Counselor, she helped me to recognize the role that fear had played in my, in my life and

Dave Cornell: The need to begin to do things courageously during that time, we ended up. We didn’t lose our home. But we ended up having to sell our home as we went through.

Dave Cornell: All of our savings and so we were in our mid 50s in 2011 now we had no jobs. We had no home and we had no money and so

Dave Cornell: I had to start to it because I wasn’t finding work. I had to start to find ways to create work you were instrumental in that David in that process for me.

Dave Cornell: But then also with the help of this counselor beginning to recognize

Dave Cornell: How fear had really held me captive for many, many years. And I began to write down the things that I was learning with my counselor and this this book and the the the talk, the presentation that I give on courage all developed out of that process.

David Horsager: And I was fortunate enough to get to write the the forward to

Dave Cornell: That

David Horsager: And I still remember the story I wrote in the forward so you know I’m 12 years old. I’m riding my horse, I get my foot cotton, the stirrup I get drugs and drugs and drug and between the legs and and think I’m going to die under the under the horse because only one leg is caught in the

David Horsager: Saddle at 12 years old when that horses running across the field and I’m being drugged on the ground. Finally, my foot slips out and I, my dad quarter mile away sees it comes over to me and I’m scared to death. I’m shaking I’m

Dave Cornell: Okay.

David Horsager: And I remember what he says. I didn’t even I don’t even know if he had to say it because we knew this about horses get back on the horse.

David Horsager: Wow. For me as much, maybe for me, too. But what you can do is you can ruin a horse. If you don’t get back on and they think they can get away with that and you hear that all the time that horses ruined. No one can get on that.

David Horsager: Horse again because of the, you know, no one somebody didn’t get back on and I knew I had to get up back on that horse and I remember 12 years old, shaking

David Horsager: And sitting on that horse, and I knew you know little tears and my dad knew how hard it would be for me, but he knew I had to do it for me and for the horse sitting on that horse and walking home and

David Horsager: I just, I’m grateful for that moment of the push, sometimes a push or an encouragement toward courage. When you don’t feel like it can be the thing and I see you doing that with

David Horsager: Our team and as a certified in a senior consultant for us with others that we serve, but also with your own clients of how you’re kind of this

David Horsager: This push toward take the next step.

David Horsager: Yeah, be of courage and I’m grateful for my dad, you know, doing that for me, but

David Horsager: Tell us kind of the core concept of, you know, wanting us to get into the frame a little bit because I think that was so valuable for me when you lead through about maybe before that.

David Horsager: You know this this whole courage. What, what, what can we learn I were scared as you and I both see

David Horsager: imposter syndrome and leaders we in our work we’ve been able to work with presidents of countries and presidents of companies and we know underneath it. Many of them are looking a certain way, but they’re scared to death that they’re going

Dave Cornell: To be


David Horsager: Found out and they’re scared to make the courageous choice. What, what would you say to them.

Dave Cornell: Well, I think that the real key here, David. And it’s interesting you tell the story that you share in the forward.

Dave Cornell: One of my favorite quotes that I share often when I speak comes from john wayne the movie cowboy courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway.

Dave Cornell: And so this is not about becoming fear less we we often hear and people say, you know, it’s all about becoming fearless. And I think if if we strive to become fearless. We’re never going to do anything.

Dave Cornell: It’s about wrecking the need that recognizing the need to be courageous and I think one of the things that I talk about first is never underestimate the value of a crisis.

Dave Cornell: I look back at that time when my wife and I lost our jobs and lost our home. It was a crisis time in our lives. I can tell you today though because we went through that time.

Dave Cornell: We are better people for it and I’m glad that it happened, doesn’t mean I ever want it to happen again.

Dave Cornell: But it’s in those crisis times in our lives where we learn and we grow and we’re challenged to do and become what we don’t think that we can become

Dave Cornell: And then I outline really three points in the book, and we can discuss them to whatever level you want to David. But first, is to name your fear.

Dave Cornell: You have to acknowledge that you have this fear. Maybe it’s a fear of of having a difficult conversation with an employee. Maybe it’s a fear of applying for a position that you don’t think that you’re quite ready for

Dave Cornell: It’s all kinds of but it’s about naming it acknowledge it. I say, it’s like being an alcoholic or a drug addict. If we’re not willing to acknowledge it. We’re never going to change it.

Dave Cornell: Step two is to frame your fear begin to see your fear in a whole different way and I think we’ll talk a little bit more about that.

Dave Cornell: In a little bit, David. And the last is to claim your courage and courage is about taking steps.

Dave Cornell: Not knowing what the second step is going to be so we know that maybe on the first step. It’s to go online to fill out the online application that’s step one. We don’t know what. Step two is

Dave Cornell: That’s what courage is. Courage isn’t waiting for everything to be all lined up courage is stepping into our fear not knowing what’s next.

David Horsager: Love it. So let’s take someone through it. We’ve got all different levels of challenges, but

David Horsager: You know, people have been through last year with the

David Horsager: Pandemic they had to fire people, they should have fired or let go earlier they waited because they weren’t courageous to do it.

Dave Cornell: Yeah.

David Horsager: You had people that should have had difficult conversations they were too scared to do it and their companies are tanking because of it. So,

David Horsager: Let’s take the CEO, the leader. They got a really difficult thing they’ve named it, it’s a difficult discussion. It’s a difficult conversation. But what about that jumping into the frame once they’ve named it

Dave Cornell: Yeah, you have to you. We see everything in a certain way and and the frame is much like a picture frame we start in the upper left hand corner with

David Horsager: It. I don’t know if you can see it, but this is what page 48. And the book is a great diagram of it.

Dave Cornell: Yeah, and and it’s it’s the word si se the way that we see things about people or other situations.

Dave Cornell: impacts how we’re going to feel about something. So we go to the upper right hand corner. Feel what we feel affects what we do, which is the lower right hand corner.

Dave Cornell: What we do affects what we get the outcome. And then our get takes us back up to our see. So in essence it’s the self fulfilling prophecy. So if we only see something in one way

Dave Cornell: And we and we continue to feel and do and get the same result. We’re not going to get anywhere. So we have to begin to see things in a different way.

Dave Cornell: And and let’s take the CEO who has a difficult decision to make. For me, the epiphany moment in this journey. David was recognizing

Dave Cornell: That that this kind of fear that holds us back this irrational fear that holds us back is selfish.

Dave Cornell: And by that, what I mean is if I’ve been given the gift. And this was my case. Now, if I’ve been given the gift of communication and the gift of

Dave Cornell: Telling stories and sharing them in a way that will make a difference for others, and I don’t do that because I’m afraid I’m not good enough, I’m afraid. Nobody wants to hear what I have to say. But yet, that’s my gift.

Dave Cornell: That’s selfish on my part to not share it. That was the epiphany moment the recognition of. Whoa. If I don’t do this. That’s selfish. So let’s take a look at the at the CEO.

Dave Cornell: Who has an employee that needs to be let go and this employee is impacting other people around them, it’s impacting their bottom line, but they’re afraid of what this employee might do or say or

Dave Cornell: They’ve had a personal relationship with them. And so they’re afraid of what might happen with that.

Dave Cornell: And yet, keeping that person on is impacting everybody else. It is selfish to hang on to that employee for personal reasons.

Dave Cornell: Because it’s having an impact on the organization. It’s having an impact on employees and you likely are losing other employees who are leaving because they don’t see you taking action that’s a kind of a quick summary. Hopefully that made sense.

David Horsager: I love it. I think that’s this reframing it to selfishness and understanding that that we’re selfish when we don’t

David Horsager: Really when we aren’t don’t act courageously

David Horsager: Exactly still scary.

David Horsager: Day. Yes, it’s still scary.

David Horsager: I don’t want to. How am I gonna, I mean, come on. I need something more. How am I gonna see it differently.

Dave Cornell: Well, I think one of the things that you need to do is you need to visit with trusted people

Dave Cornell: You need to sit down and have conversations with people that you trust and share that fear, again, it goes back to not step number one.

Dave Cornell: acknowledge it, share it, write it down on a piece of paper, get it out there is

Dave Cornell: When we live in fear. It holds us captive and getting it out verbalizing it or sharing it take some of the power away. And so I think first and foremost, and

Dave Cornell: I am hoping that most CEOs have a group of trusted friends that challenge them that encourage them and I think that’s where it starts, is you have to share it with somebody else.

Dave Cornell: Get their input get their feedback. And you know what happens when we do this, David is they say,

Dave Cornell: That happened to me. Let me tell you what I did. And let me tell you the difference that it made

Dave Cornell: And so it’s so critical. Again, first to get it out, then you need to begin as you begin to frame it and see it differently. You need to begin to write out. Okay, here’s how I see it now.

Dave Cornell: What other ways might I see this. Wow, I didn’t even think about it impacting my other employees. I didn’t even think about it impacting my clients.

Dave Cornell: And yet it does so we have to begin to see what is the impact not just on the personal piece with this employee. But what is the impact with everything around

Dave Cornell: And then we have to begin to have a strategy to courageously step into it. We have to have a plan. So, okay, I’ve got this employee and I need to let them go.

Dave Cornell: I’m going to set the date that on, you know, Monday, January 11 I’m having this conversation with this person. I’m going to sit down with HR and go through, make sure we’ve got all our ducks in a row.

Dave Cornell: But you need to have a plan on here’s what we’re going to do. Here’s why we’re going to do it and make sure that all of your HR appropriate steps are in place so that you can do it.

Dave Cornell: But it’s naming it framing it and then taking those courageous steps and it’s hard, David. You’re right. And I’ll tell you, sometimes it’s hard to be the courage guy because I have these recognitions of my need to be courageous.

David Horsager: You don’t get you don’t get a pass.

Dave Cornell: Yeah, that’s exactly

Dave Cornell: Right, it’s right that’s the same with trust. We’re in a glass bowl. It’s like a you talk about trust, you better you know be perfect, right.

David Horsager: Live. That’s why the in in in workshops. The first thing I say speeches or whatever. It’s like I’m not perfect at any of this.

David Horsager: I didn’t know it’s true from the research right

David Horsager: I like it. This is, this is great. So

David Horsager: Any so if I went I saw it, I, I went through this process of framing, then in that third the claim Kurt. Where’s the plan.

Dave Cornell: Well, the plan and I outside outlined some different steps in there that I did the plan can be very different for each person.

Dave Cornell: But I think one of the one of the very simple steps in this process is recognizing the power of the Word, maybe

Dave Cornell: I used to tell myself David and you helped me a great deal in this process, but I used to tell myself I wanted to own my own business and be a speaker.

Dave Cornell: But I would tell myself very definitively even though this is what I wanted to do. I could never make my living as a speaker and a coach and a trainer.

Dave Cornell: And then I learned with the help of some friends. The word putting the word maybe in front of that maybe I could never make my living as a speaker and a coach and a trainer.

Dave Cornell: But then what happens is there’s a little crack of hope in that and hope is such a powerful thing.

Dave Cornell: And then it’s about love. Again, the process for everybody is going to be very different. But when you say I can’t let that person go

Dave Cornell: Maybe you can’t let that person go but maybe you can. And then you begin to outline. Okay, how am I going to do this and that may be different for everybody so

Dave Cornell: That’s one of the things that’s hard with this David is to give a very definitive process, but I think it’s the first thing is to recognize what is the first step that you need to take and maybe the first step is simply I need to decide that I’m gonna let this person go. Step one.

David Horsager: Yeah, I love it. So before the plan. I’ve met you know this is the power of maybe maybe gets kicked around like the bad word.

David Horsager: Yeah, actually, it gives hope and I think it’s interesting. The last podcast I had, you know, basically the gift that this person’s dad, who happened to be the principal of a school in a very tough.

David Horsager: Area of Chicago said that what he gave those young students in urban Chicago was he gave him hope.

David Horsager: I mean there’s such power in hope. Right.

Dave Cornell: And I think

David Horsager: For me, you know, when I learned a way to lose weight back when I lost 50 pounds I you know people to eat less, exercise more, that wasn’t clear enough right but but when when I got an idea. I actually gave me hope.

David Horsager: This may be cracks open the door for hope is, if we can give hope there’s a whole lot of power like

David Horsager: To believe this could happen. And that’s the start of a mind shift that really matters.

Dave Cornell: Right. Right. Yeah. And and David. You’re so right. It’s all about the mindset and and i remember when and this is some friends that taught me the frame and taught me the word maybe

Dave Cornell: From an organization called Top 20 training that do amazing work in schools and and they allowed me to use this work and my work and

Dave Cornell: That word maybe and hope is such a critical piece and again for me as a Christian. It’s a it was a whole revelation for me to recognize that power of hope and and to get people to see that.

Dave Cornell: Maybe I can’t. But you know what, maybe I can I think of Roger Bannister the first man to ever break the four minute mile

Dave Cornell: And people said it would never happen people’s no one will ever break the four minute mile but Roger Bannister did

Dave Cornell: And he put that word, maybe, maybe nobody will. But maybe somebody. And I don’t remember what the statistics are but over the course of the next two years. There were like another 10 or 12 people that did it because of the power of hope.

David Horsager: Yeah, absolutely. So if I’m going to do the process basically and not to oversimplify it people should get the book cultivate courage and and and hire you and hire us

David Horsager: Maybe

David Horsager: Maybe they shave anyways but but you’ve got, you’re going to name the fear, you’re going to frame the fear and then you’re going to claim courage.

David Horsager: But am I right here when it the creating the plan stage for dealing with that is that going to be right before. Number three, claiming is that part of number three.

Dave Cornell: It’s, it’s part of number three. It’s it. First of all, you have to recognize hopefully after steps one and two, you recognize

Dave Cornell: Time for me to do something courageous. So how am I going to do that. And that’s where you begin to to step into that courage and

Dave Cornell: And one of the things that I that I talked about. It’s one of the steps is recognize that the fear will always be there.

Dave Cornell: So again, as I said, this is not about becoming fearless. It is rather about becoming courageous. So step one is to recognize the fear will be there.

Dave Cornell: When you have that conversation with that employee, you’re likely going to be a little bit scared about what it’s going to be like

Dave Cornell: But if you’ve done your homework and done all the things you should do in advance. You can go into that, knowing that you can handle that difficult conversation and so

Dave Cornell: It’s about. It’s about taking little steps, not knowing maybe what the next step is even going to be. And that’s often the case.

David Horsager: I love it, a process for being more courageous and it doesn’t mean you won’t be fearful there.

Dave Cornell: Yes.

David Horsager: As we know, fear can be very good.

David Horsager: Fear yes right thing

David Horsager: I’m so yes, lad. You know, I’m scared to walk in the middle the road when somebody comes by. I’m so scared. I’m I don’t want to you know get too close to that cliff. I’m so glad I’m scared of taking drugs for what could happen right i mean

David Horsager: The fear is such a great thing, but it can be terrible.

David Horsager: Yes, that’s when we need to have courage. So how is this worked with your, you know, your trust work you’ve been you’ve been doing so much trust work you’ve been doing so much courage work. How have you put them together. And how’s that worked.

Dave Cornell: You know, I think it’s been really interesting. The, the synergy between courage and trust and really the synergy between

Dave Cornell: Each of the pillars and I’ll give you, I’ll give you one example, we’ll start with the first pillar, the pillar of clarity so often I have

Dave Cornell: In coaching or I found myself in this situation where a manager or leader will be up in front of the room and they’ll say, Here’s what our plan is for the next year. And here’s what our expectations are.

Dave Cornell: And I’m sitting there, confused, and the manager or leader will say any questions. And I’m sitting there.

Dave Cornell: Looking around nobody nobody’s raising their hand. And so I think I must be the only one who’s confused here.

Dave Cornell: And and so in clarity. It’s about the courage to ask, Hey, I’m not sure what’s expected of me here. Can you go through that again for me.

Dave Cornell: And so often we sit back and then and then when the meetings over we go talk with somebody else that by the water cooler and they say, did you get what he just said.

Dave Cornell: And it’s about having the courage to raise your hand and ask the question.

Dave Cornell: It’s about having the courage as the leader to say, you know what I know, I often don’t communicate very well, so hey Bill, just so I know I’ve communicated appropriately. Can you tell me what I’ve asked you to do.

Dave Cornell: So that’s included. That’s it. That’s an example of the courage to ask the questions just in the clarity pillar and it happens in every single pillar and I know we don’t have time to go through all them. But that’s one example, David.

David Horsager: I love it. Courage asked questions. I was just thinking about that, you know, one of the one of the little quick ideas we teach managers is Odissi

David Horsager: Maybe

David Horsager: You’ve given a clear outcome clear deadline. Clear. Clear and leave left room for clarifying questions and that deadline. People just don’t want to give it because they’re scared to death that it’ll create conflict when not giving it will create conflict.

David Horsager: And

David Horsager: I am very clear here at the Institute.

David Horsager: That

David Horsager: I am not good at all these things. I teach, and I’ll tell you what, and has the courage. Every time to say, David, what’s the deadline, then you you teach this stuff. But what’s the NGOs to stand up and bravery, by the way that you didn’t do you

David Horsager: Mean the deadline. Yeah.

David Horsager: Yeah, so

Dave Cornell: It’s great to work with people that

David Horsager: Have the courage.

Dave Cornell: And clean, you know,

David Horsager: Where people can have it.

Dave Cornell: Yeah, and the David. The interesting thing too is a lot of the reason that people don’t want to give deadlines is because then they have to hold people accountable.

Dave Cornell: And it takes courage to hold people accountable and that comes back to the commitment pillar and so courage is interwoven in so in in all the pillars really

David Horsager: Every one of them.

David Horsager: Yeah. Wow.

David Horsager: Well, let’s do you have any, by the way, sometimes we get to this in the in just our daily lives. People love to hear habits and you gave a few of those. But you have any like tips.

David Horsager: Just favorite productivity tips, even for how you you know we’ve got so many busy leaders listening today. Any tips that you as a routine or, you know, as a as a habit or ways you deal with things that help you stay effective and efficient, even in just the little tasks.

Dave Cornell: Yeah, and, and I’m a I’ve never been a great list person, but I’ve got a list right in front of me of the things that I want to accomplish this week and I know David that that’s something that you teach and something that I

Dave Cornell: That that you affirmed in what I was doing. And so for me it’s about what is it that I want to accomplish this week. And how am I going to go about getting that done. I think that is

Dave Cornell: Truly a simple one that that many, many people talk about, but not many people really fulfill that live that out.

David Horsager: DMA is different jacking actions we wrote about them in both the first two books, but

David Horsager: Every day. Now, you know, and leads it but the team comes around for a five minute meeting stand up meetings and everybody just gives one DMA for the day.

David Horsager: And then the next day they have to report on it. Just what top thing. What’s the most important thing of their five, three or four, three to five. What’s, what’s the most important thing

David Horsager: Interesting. What happens when that just gets in front of you have it written down, and that kind of thing, simple idea, but certainly an important one.

David Horsager: Yeah, well, there’s a whole lot more. We could cover and cultivate courage and a whole lot more. We could cover with your work.

David Horsager: Maybe before I get to the lightning round any other highlights, you know, for you in work life business like this courage work.

David Horsager: I’m thinking of that principle, you came up with. It’s really fun for us to see for the the pharmaceutical we were working with. But what what are some little highlight takeaways. When you’ve seen people be TRANSFORMING, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE GETTING IT

Dave Cornell: Wow, that’s, that’s a great question and I, for me, it’s when I get an email from somebody, or maybe even a letter.

Dave Cornell: From somebody and and they tell me that they have begun to step out and courage and and i mean i had a lady share with me.

Dave Cornell: This is, this is a year after she had heard me speak and she went back was challenged, but by what I had to share with her and she didn’t do anything about it. She just

Dave Cornell: Dwell the in that fear for a year of calling out somebody was a nonprofit calling out the, the head of her board who had been harassing sexually harassing one of her employees and it took her a year to do something about it. But she did and it, it changed her life and

Dave Cornell: So others.

Dave Cornell: It and others. Exactly. And so I think for me, just hearing those stories of of people who have made a change, who have had the courage. This gentleman that we’re coaching right now that I’m coaching right now from the the

Dave Cornell: The university that that we’ve talked about just the change that he is making. And again, that’s what drives and motivates me so I just, I love when I see people

Dave Cornell: Beginning to see differently. You know, it comes back to the frame. They’ve seen one way and now they’ve started to see another way

David Horsager: I love it, you know, psychology, thoughts, lead to desires with

David Horsager: The actions. What I see leads to what I think about and desire which leads now act and it’s the same with the frame and the same with courage, so

David Horsager: A clear, simple three step process for courage, a simple, clear frame but you got to do it. And like we say around here. You got to do the work.

David Horsager: So let’s jump to a lightning round here. What’s your right now. You gave a bunch of your favorite authors, so we’ll just jumped in. What’s a favorite resource or book right now, specifically

Dave Cornell: You know, I just finished up reading Bob gough’s dream big book and and i love how he writes, he’s got so many stories.

Dave Cornell: But particularly as I think about this online course, I’m in the process of developing. It was so good for me so challenging for me and helped me to be in the process of dreaming bigger than what I normally might have done in that book was critical in helping me through this process.

David Horsager: You know something really fun about that we read, we read a book in the evening with our kids getting older, all the time, but we read love does by

David Horsager: God, and boy, that was fun and some out loud laughter but also inspiring go take a chance, go do it. You know,

David Horsager: Yes, but I’ll tell you a really fun podcast listening to it yesterday because of the four authors you named you can put two of them together and just this last podcast by Bob goth. He has Mark Patterson on

Dave Cornell: That yeah

David Horsager: Big thinkers together in one podcast.

David Horsager: They are a lot of fun and a lot of inspiration.

Dave Cornell: So I’ll have to find that one.

David Horsager: Very cool. It’s on his dream big podcast but

David Horsager: He has mark on and marks going to be on our show here before long. So what any favorite quote

Dave Cornell: Wow, you know, I’m going to share what this. This is one of my quotes and it’s one that that I tried to step into every day fear calls us to be spectators courage calls us to get in the game.

Dave Cornell: And I and and that’s a quote that came out of a particular story that I share when I speak of me being

Dave Cornell: Put into a high school basketball game in a situation that I didn’t think that I was ready for and fear. Fear keeps us in the stands.

Dave Cornell: Courage gets us in the game gets us active gets us doing things that we don’t think when we could ever accomplish and

Dave Cornell: Here’s one of the key things to in this David is that when we are courageous, it not only makes a difference in our lives, but in the lives of the people around us.

Dave Cornell: And so we have to recognize that when we’re courageous when we’re fearful. We’re selfish when we’re courageous.

Dave Cornell: We are we are spreading who we are and the gifts that we’ve been given. And so for me, that’s one of my favorite quotes and I don’t know if it’s fair to use one of my own. But that’s one that’s

Dave Cornell: really impactful for me.

David Horsager: I love it. We know your humility already so I’m glad you use your own because I really appreciate that.

David Horsager: Well, it has been a great conversation. What’s, what’s one thing in your life. One thing you have left to do you really want to do that by the way I think of courage with you. I remember when you told me years ago. I don’t know if I’ll live past 50

Dave Cornell: Right, yeah.

David Horsager: Yeah, because you know family basically no one had and look at

David Horsager: You now a couple decades almost

Dave Cornell: Closing in on that. Yeah, then

David Horsager: But I mean, think about what do you have left to do you, what’s your bucket list item here that you’re thinking, boy, I sure hope to this is something I’d like to see happen.

Dave Cornell: Well, for me, it’s this online course, and I’ve got a deadline of March 1 and, you know, sharing it with you and and your listeners. Now it becomes even more. I’m more accountable to it now and. But just knowing that the impact

Dave Cornell: That that this can have on people if they knowing the impact of learning to be courageous in my own life.

Dave Cornell: And and how other people can do that as well and the impact that that spreads its kind of kind of the, the pebble in the pond theory, you know,

Dave Cornell: Hopefully I can impact a few people who then can impact more and more and more just like you do in your trust work, David. And so

Dave Cornell: I’m going to say, even though I’ve got a you know a shortened deadline on it that for me, I think, is the is the next big step and then some longer term goals are. I’d love to do courage workshops

Dave Cornell: Where we bring people together and they share dreams that they might never think that they could do but with the help and support of other people. They can be encouraged to be more than they ever thought they could be and they can get out of the stands and get into the game.

David Horsager: Love it. I love it. There’s a second book there.

David Horsager: So where can people find out about more, I got one last question for you. But before that, where can we find out more. Everybody can come to trust edge to find you. But where do we find out about courage.

Dave Cornell: And I’ve got my own website cultivate courage calm and you can go there and find out the work that I do there.

Dave Cornell: The training that I do the speaking that I do. I’ve got a blog that I haven’t done much with the last couple of months, but was pretty consistent with. And I’ll start back up here in a couple weeks on that.

Dave Cornell: So cultivate courage calm, you can find my book on Amazon, just to type in the title cultivate courage and so those are the really the two places that I

Dave Cornell: Would love to connect with people on my website. I’ve got a Facebook page as well. Cultivate courage. So I’d love to connect with people there to

David Horsager: Cultivate courage and all these sites and links will be in the show notes trusted leader show.com and we’ll make sure they’re in there. So, final question.

David Horsager: The show is the trusted leader show who is a trusted leader that you trust and why

Dave Cornell: Well, David. I’m, I’m gonna go with you and

Dave Cornell: You just have had such an impact in my life and I see you live out those eight pillars and I know that you say that you’re not perfect at them and and but

Dave Cornell: You have been a mentor to me you have helped me in in more ways than you can even imagine. And I think just

Dave Cornell: Being able to apply again we go back to the pebble in the pond. I’m one of those outer rings of the pebble we you know when you jumped into the pond with your trust work that’s had an impact on me and I’m just very, very grateful for that. So,

Dave Cornell: I hope that that’s okay to use you as my as my trusted leader in that

David Horsager: Very kind. I didn’t set that up at all, but

Dave Cornell: He didn’t. He didn’t

David Horsager: Thank you. Thank you, Dave. And it’s been a delightful friendship and

Dave Cornell: Spent so far, see all

David Horsager: You’ve done so well that is our conversation for today. Thanks for joining us on the trusted leader SHOW. Dave Cornell. Thank you so much for being on. Thank you for your work. Thank you for being our friend, and thanks for the, the, the, the framework.

David Horsager: Around courage today and we just are grateful to know you and partner alongside with you. So, we will see you all next time on the trusted leader show and until then stay trusted.

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