david_horsager: Welcome to the Trusted Leader Show. it’s David Horsager, I’m back with

david_horsager: another amazing talent. He’s a marketing and branding expert. He’s worked

david_horsager: with brands like Coca Cola and Campbell Soup Company and Nabisco He’s the

david_horsager: CEO of Brand Manage Camp, and the founder even invited me to speak there

david_horsager: with some other Uh experts. It was a just a fantastic event. You can learn

david_horsager: more about that at Lenhurst Dot Com. We’re going to give you other ways to

david_horsager: reach out to him, but I just want to welcome you to the show. He’s also a

david_horsager: reserve sheriff. How cool is that? So welcome to the show Len Herstein.

len_herstein: Thanks. They. good to see you, man. Good to see you.

david_horsager: It’s great to see you again. I’ll tell you what we’re going to get into it.

david_horsager: I want to talk about your book that you author. Uh, be vigilant before we

david_horsager: do. just give us a uh. you know a sixty seconds onn. who is ▁lynnhrsten?

len_herstein: Yeah, So who isst man? I’m trying to figure out Myge. you know I, I’ve gone

len_herstein: through several ititerations. I started out in consulting, and then I moved

len_herstein: into consumer package, Good brand marketing with the companies that you talked

len_herstein: about from there. I’ gone to a lot of conferences and and couldn’t find the

len_herstein: one I wanted to go to, So I created my own that’ Whereed Braence

len_herstein: just did our nineteenth annual this yearrtually. Um, in two fifteen, I was

len_herstein: looking for a way to uh, give back to the community. I became a reserve

len_herstein: sheriff’s deputy, and then this past year, Um, I kind of combined all my

len_herstein: experiences into this. This vigilant is

len_herstein: sixty secondswese. go big.

david_horsager: yeah, we’re excited here about Bevinton. He’s also a double Cornell grad,

david_horsager: which, uh, We got some family. Uh, that is big on Cornell out here’. got

david_horsager: nephews and um, uh, yeah, cousins y all that, Uh. Cornell University. So

david_horsager: it’s the uh, You know we’re we’re farm people. So it’s kind of the Agg Ivy

david_horsager: League campus. right, so uh, we’re we’re um. kind of mixes it. So

len_herstein: They. they’ve changed the names a bit. But when I was when I was younger and I

len_herstein: actually went to college, I went to the College of Agriculture and Life

len_herstein: Science is a Cornell. So

david_horsager: yeah, great. all right.

david_horsager: let’s let’s jump in here and let’s start with the The book. Be vigilant. I’m

david_horsager: going to jump in here, but give us like wh. Why? why did you write it? And

david_horsager: then I’ got some key questions that I think will be relevant to everybody


len_herstein: Yeah, absolutely so. like I like I mentioned, I, I spent. you know, I, I,

len_herstein: thirty plus years in business and marketing and and brand management. Um, and

len_herstein: then in the last seven years I’ve been doing this, Uh, this law enforcement

len_herstein: thing, I went into thinking that it was going to be completely different than

len_herstein: anything I’ve ever done before. But what I found is that right away there were

len_herstein: things that I was applying back to business in life, and one of the key things

len_herstein: was this concept that complacency kills, And it’s something we spent a lot of

len_herstein: time on in law. enforcement. Um and I started thinking you know what

len_herstein: complacency kills businesses, It kills brands and kills organizations. It

len_herstein: kills personal relationships. Um, and so I started


len_herstein: becoming obsessed about understanding what complacency was and how it

len_herstein: manifests itself and what brings it on, and what, And and started seeing the

len_herstein: things that we do every day in law enforcement to help us fight complacency.

len_herstein: And then the book is about taking that and applying that back to how we can

len_herstein: use that in business in a life.

david_horsager: so we’re going to talk a little bit about it. Everybody’s going to want to

david_horsager: get the book to be vigilant, but I, I want to just ask you know, these days

david_horsager: there’s a lot of people burnt out. They’re burnt out in law enforcement.

david_horsager: they’ burnt out in health care. they’re burnt out in, you know, after the

david_horsager: pandemic, all these kind of things they don’t want to hear about getting

david_horsager: them off there, you know, getting mov, and more, and you know whatever, but

david_horsager: they are even becoming complacent in the midst of this. What what do we say

david_horsager: to them there with empathy? How do we? How do we motivate vigilance now?

len_herstein: Yeah, well, I mean, here’s the thing. What what I tell people is that success

len_herstein: is not the end goal. Keeping it is right, it’s not. It’s not enough to get to

len_herstein: the top of the hill. You have to stay there. You got to figure out a way to

len_herstein: stay there. And what? And And the irony is that the more success we enjoy, the

len_herstein: more likely we are to become vulnerable to complacency. Because we become

len_herstein: overconfident, we become a little self satisfied, and we become comfortable.

len_herstein: And those are all the things that build that right environment for complacency

len_herstein: to grow. So you know, the the message here is not about paranoia, is not about

len_herstein: hyper vigilance. You know what I mean. A lot of times people will think well.

len_herstein: The opposite of complacency is paranoia. Um, but it’s not because here’s the

len_herstein: deal. paranoia is based in fear. paranoia is the fear of potential dangers of

len_herstein: the fear of potential threats. What I preach is vigilance, and vigilance is

len_herstein: the awareness of potential threats. Right. So this is a book about how to

len_herstein: remain aware, right how to build the processes in, so you don’t have to be

len_herstein: thinking about it all the time, so that you are naturally aware that you make

len_herstein: put yourself in the best position to not be caught by surprise, and to be

len_herstein: ahead of the curve. The worst time to figure out what you’re going to do in a

len_herstein: crisis is when you’re in the crisis,

david_horsager: So let’s let’s

len_herstein: So let’s let’s look. One that really hit mepric

david_horsager: lookcause. One of the things that really hit me was get off the ▁x. The

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability This sounds kind of

david_horsager: crazy like. what do you mean? the

david_horsager: advantages of strategic unpredictability Tell us about this.

len_herstein: Do you meandpric

len_herstein: Yeah, So getting off the ▁x, I mean where it comes from and what we talk about

len_herstein: in law enforcement is this thing called the Udalup o o d a, which stands for

len_herstein: observe Orient de side and act, And this was something that the military came

len_herstein: up with to describe how fighter pilots make decisions And so you observe you

david_horsager: Say this again. I’ve learned this, but I need to hear it one more time.

len_herstein: more. Yeah, so it’s the udaluop, like Guda cheese,

len_herstein: but uda right, but is spelled o o d a

len_herstein: for observe. Orient, decide and act

len_herstein: right. And

len_herstein: here’s the thing. it is a. It is. it is not just a linear process. it’s a

len_herstein: looping process. Right And so

len_herstein: the the game is to get to the action as fast as you can by doing all the

len_herstein: steps. the way the human mind works and way organizations work. Is that if you

len_herstein: disrupt one of those elements,

len_herstein: you you’re forced to go back to the beginning? Right? if you’re observing and

len_herstein: orienting and you’re in the decision phase and then some of your inputs

len_herstein: change. You’ve got to go back and it slows you down the way I, You know. Are

len_herstein: you a football fan?

len_herstein: Okay? so a football fan? so say someone? Uh, say there’s a punt return right

len_herstein: and the punt returner is running straight down the field And you’re a defender

len_herstein: now, And you don’t have to be a mathematical genius to figure out where that

len_herstein: person’s running and how fast, and a what angle you need to run to intercept

len_herstein: them right. But

len_herstein: if all of a sudden they start juking and turning and twisting and spinning,

len_herstein: that’s when you see defenders fall on their butts right. Because what’s

len_herstein: happening is they’ve observed they oriented. They decided they acted and then

len_herstein: everything changed right.

len_herstein: and then they had to re observe, reorient and it messes everything up.

david_horsager: So how do we lets? let’s get. Let’s take this to practical. How do I do

david_horsager: Let’s say in the pandemic, Let’s say in some change, But the truth is you

david_horsager: and I both know there’s a massive change ahead. black chain cryptocurrency.

david_horsager: pro, another pandemic, Maybe in the next decade, You know, we got to get

david_horsager: better at this. We got to get better at in our world, building trust in the

david_horsager: midst of change, But also just be just dealing with this. I like this simple

david_horsager: process. I’ve actually read about this and it just reminded me about it, But

david_horsager: how would I orient Like? Okay, I can see observing. Okay, this is happening.

david_horsager: That’s happening. but how do I orient? decide and take action.

len_herstein: well, so there there’ there’s two. There’s two things Right. One is how do you

len_herstein: get through your process faster? Right

len_herstein: and that’s what you’re talking about. The other thing is how do you slow down

len_herstein: your competition right? And so the strategic unpredictability comes into play

len_herstein: on that second part, which is by remaining strategically unpredictable so that

len_herstein: people can’t pinpoint where you’re going to be or what you’re going to do. You

len_herstein: make slow down our decision process. Now you can speed up your own decision

len_herstein: process through Um, scenario, planning right through. So through this is what

len_herstein: we do a lot in law enforcement. We think about what if what if what? If so

len_herstein: that when the thing actually happens, we don’t have to actually go through the

len_herstein: process of figuring out what we’re going to do. We can move much quicker to

len_herstein: action because it’s

len_herstein: already muscle memory. It’s already brain memory Right. And so that’s what we

len_herstein: need to do in the organization is figure out how are we going to react if this

len_herstein: happens, Because if if we’re sitting back and we’re waiting to observe in an

len_herstein: orient theciing act, we’re going to be slow right. But if we’ve already

len_herstein: prethought if this happens, this is what we’re going to do, and this is how

len_herstein: we’re going to do it. we can move there much quicker,

len_herstein: right So so there’s two pieces to the Udal loop game. Number one is speeding

len_herstein: up your own decision process, right, and number two is slowing your

len_herstein: competitors or your potential competitors By not being so predictable Doesn’t

len_herstein: mean being Willi nearly unpredictable, so that your customer or your

len_herstein: constituent or whoever it is that you’re serving can’t ever figure out what

len_herstein: you’re about or what you’re doing. That’s not what this is about, but it’s

len_herstein: about remaining strategically unpredictable to your competition and to your to

len_herstein: your. Uh. you know competitive set

david_horsager: What what would that look like? Can you give us one example that of a brand

david_horsager: or a company

david_horsager: or someone that’s done that well?

len_herstein: done well strategic.

david_horsager: They’ve been strategically in, predict, because you know, in trust, we talk

david_horsager: a lot about being consistent. I want to know what I going to get every time

len_herstein: A lot about beings want to every know. It be the same every time in many wayss

david_horsager: I know what. It’s going to be the same every time in many ways, But is there

david_horsager: an example so we can get kind of our heads around it?

len_herstein: around it. Yeah, so I mean,

len_herstein: I’ll give you. I’ll give a quick example of someone who’s whos remains

len_herstein: strategically unpredictable, Right and then someone who who hasn’t. So if we

len_herstein: have time, if not, think about Netflix, right,

len_herstein: So everybody wants to talk about Netflix in terms of Netflix and Blockbuster,

len_herstein: right, that’s that’s common. That’s the common

len_herstein: knowledge. right Blckbuster. drop the ballmb, Netflix came in and and redesign

len_herstein: and and took over this industry of video rental. But what people don’t realize

len_herstein: is that what Netflix has done ever since is one of the things I talk about in

len_herstein: strategic unpredictability is self disruption, right, So

len_herstein: the best type of disruption is self disruption, disrupting yourself before

len_herstein: somebody else does. It helps you remain unpredictable, and this is what

len_herstein: Netflix keeps doing right. So Netflix took the video rental business and

len_herstein: changed it. Then they move to streaming. Then they move to uh, their own

len_herstein: content and original content. And now

len_herstein: they just announce that they’re actually getting into gaming and doing games

len_herstein: within their platform

len_herstein: to keep people more engaged right every time every step along the way

len_herstein: May maybe gaming’s not going to work for them right. But what it does is it

len_herstein: keeps everybody else guessing and it keeps everybody else playing catch up,

len_herstein: which slows them down and make sure they’re not the ones doing this. The

len_herstein: disruption. So to me, Netflix would be a

len_herstein: great example of that

david_horsager: good example. What was it quick? What was the other example of someone who

len_herstein: good example. What was it quick? What with the other example of someone who

david_horsager: hasn’t done it and they fell off

len_herstein: hasn’t done it and they fell off. Uh, like everybody in retail. Okay, so so

len_herstein: let you

david_horsager: well and

len_herstein: what. What do itps?

david_horsager: you could go back to your blockbusters like the opposite, Right Kodak, or

david_horsager: you know anybody,

len_herstein: but you know here’s

len_herstein: here’s a great example. I. I. I like Edde bower clothes. Uh, I’m

len_herstein: a. I’m a pretty simple guy right so

len_herstein: Eddie Bower’s pretty pretty easy for me, But you know several years ago Eddie

len_herstein: Bower trained me and everybody else in the world not to buy anything from them

len_herstein: unless it was at least fifty percent off. Right, I get emails from them

len_herstein: literally every day, ranging from thirty percent to forty percent. I don’t

len_herstein: even look at them until they get to fifty percent, knowing that there is a

len_herstein: sixty percent coming. Right, they are squarely on that ▁x. and they will, And

len_herstein: and I just, I just don’t need to buy for them. Not only do I know that those

len_herstein: sales are coming, All their competitors know they’re coming too, And when

len_herstein: they’re coming, and what rates they’re coming, and so they have become very

len_herstein: very stuck on an acts as a lot of people in retail. do

david_horsager: let’s get personal. Gilance be your whole. You know you have this whole

david_horsager: part. One of the chapters is on the

david_horsager: autonomy, fighting complacency through the power of empowerment. But maybe

david_horsager: you can speak to that, but also just how do we fight complacency at work,

david_horsager: but also in our marriage, in our relationships and our friendships. Ive been

david_horsager: married my wife for a quarter century. Now, Uh, four

david_horsager: kids to to show for it and an amazing marriage. But how do we you know fight

len_herstein: Yes, okay, so two separate questions there. I’ll take the first one first. So

len_herstein: autonomy in the workplace, we’re seeing this right now. everybody’s talking

len_herstein: about this. The great resignation, right, as

len_herstein: if it’s a covet thing. this is not a covid thing, right.

len_herstein: The great resignation is not a covid thing. This thing has been brewing

len_herstein: for a while, and covid, maybe accelerated it, or brought it to a head, but the

len_herstein: reality is that for a long time employers had a lot of power right. And what

len_herstein: do they do with that power? They abused it right. And so one of the things I

len_herstein: talk about in the book is this this need to be able to articulate the y. It’s

len_herstein: something we talk a lot of in law enforcement about. Why are we doing every

len_herstein: single thing we’re doing right? And it relates to understanding Uh, what your

len_herstein: purpose is right. What is the goal? What is the overall purpose of this

len_herstein: organization of this team of this project of whatever level you want to define

len_herstein: it, and making sure that you can articulate the y

len_herstein: when the Y is because we can, or because we said so those are not good wise.

len_herstein: Those are wise that work in the short term, but come back to haunt you in the

len_herstein: long run, And so one of the things that employers need to do is they need to

len_herstein: make sure that they have defined this purpose that everybody can get behind

len_herstein: and that everybody can understand and articulate uh what they’re doing, But

len_herstein: what they also need to do is they need to give their employees autonomy and

len_herstein: discretion right. They need to give people the ability to feel like they have

len_herstein: power over their work product Right, Because when people feel like they’re

len_herstein: being treated like a machine like a robot that can only deliver specific

len_herstein: things, that is all they are going to deliver. You know, the example

len_herstein: I use. Uh, you know is ▁zappos. Right, and you know everybody W, you know may

len_herstein: have heard the story of you know the ▁zappo’s customer service agent who took

len_herstein: a call, Uh, and and you know Tony, uh shee was was there and she didn’t know

len_herstein: who it was, but they were ordering a pizza, not ordering shoes, not ordering

len_herstein: anything that ▁zappo’s actually sold. Um, and she took the time to help them

len_herstein: find a place that would deliver a pizza at the time of night that they were

len_herstein: looking for, because she understood that she had the autonomy to do whatever

len_herstein: she needed to do to make a potential customer happy, and she had the time to

len_herstein: do it right. And she also understood the purpose of the organization and what

len_herstein: that was all about. So when you give people that autonomy that what that

len_herstein: relates to and studies will show this, and you know this is released to

len_herstein: engagement, right and the more engaged people become in their work product.

len_herstein: Not only do they become better Ees, but they also become less in complacent,

len_herstein: Because when you’re engaged you’re paying attention, right, And that’s what we

len_herstein: want people to do to not become complacent. We don’t want them to ignore. You

len_herstein: know, when we’re talking about leaders up here, we rely on the people on the

len_herstein: ground doing the work to let us know to send the signals up when something’s

len_herstein: wrong, right? I just, I’m not going to name names, but I just had an issue

len_herstein: this this week with our bank. Uh, the bank that we use for our business, and

len_herstein: without letting us know without doing anything, because they needed one piece

len_herstein: of information, they actually froze our accounts for without even letting us

len_herstein: know, And a vendor had to let us know that our account was frozen. And when

len_herstein: we, when we were research that we found out well what had happen Is you know,

len_herstein: Our banker without telling us, had left the company. Nobody had taken their

len_herstein: spot. No communication happened and and all of a sudden it got to this point

len_herstein: where they just froze our account. Now we went in and we filled out this one

len_herstein: piece of paper and everything was fine, But the reality is are the people that

len_herstein: we dealt with at the branch or whatever level? Are they going to pass that

len_herstein: word up? Are they

len_herstein: going to let people know right what’s going on? Do they feel like they have

len_herstein: that autonomy and that engagement level to be able to communicate upwards?

len_herstein: Because without that, not only do they become complacent, but the organization

david_horsager: you talk a little bit about. I like this. You talk a little bit about good

len_herstein: you talk a little about? I like, talk about good habits in the in the in. The

david_horsager: habits in the in the in the uh book. Tell us, I want to get personal here

len_herstein: uh book, Tell us I want to get personal. Here tells what are the good habits

david_horsager: and tell us what are some good habits you have whether it’s for business or

len_herstein: you have, whether it’s for business or for life. Family?

david_horsager: for health? life? Family,

len_herstein: Yeah, so I mean you know this and this. This gets into the their second

len_herstein: question, which was about. You know, you

len_herstein: know your personal relationships, too, but you know. Um, you know, I talk in a

len_herstein: book about the purpose of a habit is to remove thought from a situation where

len_herstein: thought actually works to your detriment. right. So the easiest example is

len_herstein: every day when I walk in the house, I placed my keys on a hook inside the

len_herstein: door. Right. I always know where my keys are. It is a habit that I do every

len_herstein: time. No matter what I don’t think about, whether am i coming in or am I going

len_herstein: to stay for a while. Do I need to hang up on my keys? Do I not need to hang

len_herstein: every single time I hang up my keys, Because if I don’t I get in, You know

len_herstein: this is probably not great for my relationship, But my wife doesn’t do that

len_herstein: and my wife loses herur keys. Right and you can’t find Themem and we’re We’re

len_herstein: stuck going around the house looking for them because each time is different

len_herstein: right So you got to think about what in your life can benefit from not

len_herstein: thinking about it. So another example that I use from law enforcement is when

len_herstein: I’m in uniform when I’m working a shift. I do not shake hands with people. I

len_herstein: do not offer my handers. There’s a lot of reasons for that. It’s not a. It’s

len_herstein: not a germafold thing. It’s because I don’t want to give up control of but

len_herstein: piece of my body to somebody that I don’t under Know what’s going on. I could

len_herstein: get in a bad situation. Now

len_herstein: you might say well, everybody’s not a threat. True. In fact, the vast majority

len_herstein: of people are not threats, but the downside if I make a mistake and give my

len_herstein: hand to someone who is a threat is so great that it’s better for me to have

len_herstein: the habit of never doing it all, Because that way I don’t have to think about

len_herstein: it right, ’cause what’s

len_herstein: going to happen is if I have to think about it, I’m goingnna make a choice

len_herstein: based on how’s this person dressed? What do they look like? Um, how angry do

len_herstein: they look? Have I met them before? What a situation? am I in? There’s a lot of

len_herstein: variables right and I can make a mistake during any one of those. So this is.

len_herstein: this is where we get into things like you know in business what I tell you

len_herstein: know. In in marketing, I tell people to you know, always do creative briefs

len_herstein: when you’re doing when you’re doing uh products That you want somebody to

len_herstein: deliver something for you and somebody like Well, We don’t need to do a Craer

len_herstein: brief for to this one because it’s not that big right and then you end up

len_herstein: wasting a ton of time on it. So it’s one of those things where it’s a habit

len_herstein: that you can get into that benefits you all the time. And if you don’t do it,

len_herstein: the downside is pretty big. Right,

david_horsager: pretty big.

len_herstein: if if if the mistakes happen, think about that in in your life with your kids

len_herstein: or your family, what are the things that you should be doing every day,

len_herstein: whether you think ing them. you love them. right. Um, you know, doing certain

len_herstein: things that should just be a habit that shouldn’t have to require. thought.

david_horsager: good word.

david_horsager: Well, there’s a whole lot more and a whole lot more in the book, and I like

david_horsager: actually somell of the stuff on briefs and deriefing by the way, but let’s

david_horsager: jump to one last. I just give a a quick overview of your kind of vigilance

david_horsager: Av model and I could read it, but let’s just let you say it.

len_herstein: yeah. So Av model in in the book is is accountability plus transparency equals

len_herstein: vigilance, And this is something that that you know. We’ve learned this lesson

len_herstein: less in law enforcement right, but this applies to leadership in in a

len_herstein: tremendous way, because the more that we are

len_herstein: hiding things, whether by on purpose or just by nature right, the less

len_herstein: transparent we are andles, we hold ourselves accountable. the less trustworthy

len_herstein: we are right. And what happens is if we don’t think ahead about being

len_herstein: specifically accountable and holding ourselves accountable and publicly

len_herstein: proclaiming what we’re going to do, andeically about how we’ going to be

len_herstein: transparent and provide a view behind the curtain all the way through. It is

len_herstein: very easy when we experience success when we have power to ignore that stuff.

david_horsager: Mhm, Mhm,

len_herstein: Right be can right.

david_horsager: How do you define account of, Believe you know, I go to a lot of

david_horsager: organizations. They have accountailities of value, and I’ll say well, how do

david_horsager: you help people Cowel here? and like you know, accountability stuff they

david_horsager: don’t know. So we know healthy vulnerability or transparency. Bullds trust.

david_horsager: ninety percent of leaders would be. Bor would trust a leader more. if

david_horsager: they’re more transparent about their mistakes. We have a little six that

david_horsager: process for building accountability, But I’m really curious. How do you kind of

david_horsager: define accountability and what’s healthy accountability Look like, how do

david_horsager: you create it?

len_herstein: Yeah, yeah, so for me, accountability in the context that we’re talking about

len_herstein: is account

len_herstein: with that with. when E, you know whatever group you’re working with in with,

len_herstein: whether it’s a team or an organization or to your broader constituents outside

len_herstein: it is publicly holding yourself accountable. I, I tell you know, I’ll I’ll The

len_herstein: the example I’ll use in personal life is going on a diet. Right, if you decide

len_herstein: that you’re going to go on a diet or you know some sort of weight loss routine

len_herstein: and you don’t tell anybody and you just do it yourself, It’s real easy to get

len_herstein: off the mark right when you publicly tell people. when you publicly tell uh,

len_herstein: you know your family, it becomes a little bit harder to get off, but it’s

len_herstein: still pretty easy, right. But when you public tell everybody if you go out

len_herstein: there on Facebook and say here’s what I’m going to do, Here’s my starting

len_herstein: picture in three months, I’m going to post my my ending picture Right, and

len_herstein: whatever whatever I’m going to do, Now you’re publicly accountable, Right and

len_herstein: when you’re publicly accountable, it forces you to be aware. It forces you to

len_herstein: be conscious of what you’re doing, right,

len_herstein: Um, for the right reasons, and also for the reasons that that. It’s kind of

len_herstein: you you’ve put yourself out there, and so for me accountability, especially

len_herstein: within organizations has to be effective. Has to be public. You have to be

len_herstein: drawing a line in the sand. something that people can judge you against

david_horsager: well, the book

david_horsager: is be vigilant by Len Herstein, and uh,

david_horsager: tell me this.

len_herstein: tell me what?

david_horsager: What do you? What are curious about? What do you think I know?

len_herstein: what you?

david_horsager: You’re a learner. I know you. You’re thinking about lot things, whether from

david_horsager: law enforcement or marketing and branding still have your feet in both

david_horsager: worlds. What what are you

david_horsager: curious about learning about these days?

len_herstein: Well, I mean, I’m I’m always curious about learning about how can we create

len_herstein: better relationships between. Um, you know, companies and their constituents

len_herstein: in my world. I’m I spend a lot of time because I. I’m really passionate about

len_herstein: law enforcement. Now is understanding how can we make a better relationship

len_herstein: between the community and law enforcement, And that’s why I

len_herstein: got into it, and that’s why I do this for F. I mean people think I’m nuts. I

david_horsager: Hm. Mhm,

len_herstein: go out and I patrol and I and I do all the things. Uh, but I do it for free.

len_herstein: but I do it because. Um, I got tired of being someone who is just sitting

len_herstein: there having arguments on the sidelines, and and opining away. I

len_herstein: wanted to be part of the solution and so that’s something I’m super passionate

len_herstein: about right now and I’m always learning. always learning more about how do we

len_herstein: bridge those gaps And how do we better serve

david_horsager: Well, I’m going to ask you the final question very soon, but before we get

david_horsager: there, you still run and uh brand manage camp you still, and your this

david_horsager: volunteer sheriff deputy,

david_horsager: give us the where they can find out about Len. They can find you on Lenked

david_horsager: in, but your main webite

david_horsager: Ist, and you can find all that and the show notes. Trusted Leader show dot

len_herstein: Lenherstein dot com, ▁l e, n h, e r s t, e i n dot com. You can get all

len_herstein: information about the book Um, be vigilant strategies to stop complacency and

len_herstein: improve performance and safeguard success. Available on Amazon Bars and oble

len_herstein: everywhere, Um, and then uh, you know, if you have more interest in the

len_herstein: conference, you can do also go to Brand manage Camp Dot com.

david_horsager: com Le. It has been a treat to have your aunt great to see you again. It’s

david_horsager: been a couple

len_herstein: Me too.

david_horsager: years now.

david_horsager: It’s the trusted leader show who is a leader you trust and why

len_herstein: Oh man, there’s uh. there’s so many. Um,

len_herstein: you know, I think

len_herstein: I mean the ones that are closest to me right now are are people that I work

len_herstein: with every day. But if I, if I want to think about someone who I have a lot of

len_herstein: trust in who who has been influential on? Uh, you know, especially me writing

len_herstein: my book and all those things I don’t know. Do you know Mitch Joel at all?

david_horsager: I know who he is, but I do not know him well,

len_herstein: Yeah, so he?

david_horsager: but I know you. Yeah, well from Canada, right.

len_herstein: Yeah, exactly Montreal, Uh,

david_horsager: Yep, totally don’t. Yeah. yup.

len_herstein: yeah, So Mitch,

len_herstein: Mitch is one of these guys where

david_horsager: he’s a good guy.

len_herstein: really good guy. And

david_horsager: Y. Yep,

len_herstein: you know is one of these people who, Um, when he says he’s going to do

len_herstein: something, he does it

len_herstein: and he does it without wanting anything in return, right

len_herstein: he is. C, is he’s what I would call a selfless leader, but he’. but he, you

len_herstein: know, he’s in a position where he’s not necessarily leading people in terms of

len_herstein: people that work for him. But I think he leads by example in an

len_herstein: industry. Um that needs it. And so, uh, you know, he’s someone that I

len_herstein: definitely have a lot of trust in Um, not only as a human being, but as a

len_herstein: leader. And and it’s someone who I aspire to be like,

david_horsager: Love it, Len. Thanks for connecting with our audience and sharing your wisdom.

david_horsager: wisdom. This has been the Trust the Leader show until next time if they

david_horsager: This has been trust the leader show until next time they trusted.