Kent Svenson:
Welcome to the trusted leader show. I’m Kent Svenson producer of the trusted leader show. And for this week’s episode, we thought we’d revisit a previous episode where David sat down with M Gasby Brown CEO of the Gasby Group, author, visual artist, and nonprofit and philanthropy expert to discuss why racial literacy is critical for every leader. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

David Horsager:
Let’s jump to de and I, it’s a big topic DEI. I justice some say in belonging these days, but diversity equity inclusion. You know, we talk about trust and it’s you, you can’t, it seems like you can’t have the best kind. At least there was a, there was a study on diversity har massive Harvard Putnam study that showed kind of diversity, diversity of many kinds on its own tends to pit people against each other, unless you increase trust. So we’re all about how do we increase trust to get the best of that? We know there, you know, we know there is greatness in diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, justice. So how do we increase trust so that we enjoy the best of this beautiful array of diversity, but I’d like to talk to you, how do you, how do you tackle D E and I in a way, or how can we as leaders maybe even think differently about it so that we increase trust and get the best of diversity?

M. Gasby Brown:
Boy, that’s a great question, David. And the onus is really more on the learning, then the learn it in this case, in my mind. And so it really comes down to, and I will deal with the racial part of it because there’s so many moving parts to de DEI and justice. There needs to be racial literacy, a curiosity that to learn and openness to learn and to be a lifelong learner about the various historical issues that have led us to where we are now with regard to racial equity, there needs to also be in my mind, I kind of deal with three RS, RS and CS, and what have you. But another R would be racial humility. There are some people who feel that they have read a few books and they have watched a couple of movies and documentaries, and now they know all they need to know, and they maybe attended a couple of DEI trainings and they know they feel that they know all there is to know about racial reckoning and what’s going on, but that is the wrong attitude. The attitude has to be humility where you’re putting yourself in the position to always be open to learning new things and more. And then the, the racial sustainability that you’re in this for the long haul, this is not just a flashpoint in history, but this is an opportunity to make change. And it starts with each of us,

David Horsager:
Where are some places you see people doing these things well, like, you know, furthering racial equity in a, a, where is it working? Is there places you can shine that are, that are examples for leaders to look at and say, okay, I never thought of that. I think I could not just, could I learn something here, but this would, this gives me something tangible we could start to do in our environment. Mm-Hmm

M. Gasby Brown:
, I think the NBA has done a great job in this regard and worthy of studying their model of how they’re dealing with justice. Equity and inclusion is so interesting because everybody’s tall there in the NBA. And one of the big optics that we use a lot would be everybody looking over a fence at different Heights and not everybody can see over the fence because of their height. And that’s where the justice diversity equity and inclusion comes in because the more you adjust the height, the more everyone is in the position to see. But true equity is when you remove the fence all together and everybody can see where they are. And I think that’s where we talk about that belonging part that you mentioned,

David Horsager:
Right? How are they doing that? How is the, I know I’ve met the, you know, CEO of the MBA and certainly many of the I’m on a I’m on an high point ex expert in residence with the amazing CEO of the of the Mavericks. And she is a, an amazing, you know positive force in this work, but how, how, what do you see them doing?

M. Gasby Brown:
Well, I see them utilizing, first of all, their stadiums with the health disparities during the pandemic and the stadiums were not being used anyway, what foresight and what, what thought, what great insight I think they utilized and being able to say, we’re gonna take these stadiums and we are going to try and close the disparity, the health disparity, amongst minorities with who were getting vaccinated or tested or all of the things that were a part part of that. These are the real things. It’s not in the, the thinking about it, it’s in the doing. So when I saw them pivot along those lines that would be something that I would consider an example. And I’d love to hear from you David, about the qualities that you’ve seen in those people that probably helped to lead them to a point where they would think this way.

David Horsager:
Well, I think the number one, you said, curiosity here, I think was the onus is on the learner either any way you look at it, but I, the, the great leaders I’ve seen deal with this and almost anything, well have had a humility, I would say humility of, of understanding. We don’t know it all a humility of, of that, that leads to, you know, I, I guess you said it, yeah. Number two was racial humility. Yeah, it was that exactly. I thought you’d said something before, but so it’s just, but it’s just plain humility and that leads to racial humility. It leads to kind of gender humility. It leads to a lot, you know, there’s but the, the, the thing that I’ve seen work is a start with humility. And

M. Gasby Brown:
Go ahead. I, I, I didn’t mean to cut you off, but I, it just brought a thought up about, I’ve seen so many CEOs and as I’ve navigated around in my professional career, and I see the ones who are most effective are those who walk in the room and begin to want to meet other people, not the ones who want everybody to flock to them and, and pander to them, if you will, because they have power and authority. But the ones that just walk up to people and say, hi, I’m Jane DOE or I’m John DOE. And and ask their name and then be interested in other people. I find being interested in other people being very important. That’s an aside, but it was just a thought that came to my head, that I found as a common thread that CEOs who are most effective, have that sense of humility and have the confidence that they can walk in a room and get to know people rather than being the center of attention.

David Horsager:
It’s almost that I think I like what you said, it’s almost a, it’s a healthy confidence that you don’t need. Like, you know, these, these needy you know, if, if you’re a CEO that needs the limelight or you need this or you, or you need to be right. I, I, I just talked to a very good friend of mine, Phil Sterling, brilliant gentleman, but he said, I no longer, he, he, he said his whole life is, is now, like, in these older years, like, I want to be curious about how to solve the right problems. I no longer want to be right. Or something like that. His, his quote was much better. And he’s, he’s so wise, but I think, you know, this, this idea of curiosity about others care for others, interest in others. Yeah. I, I think all that goes together, there’s a whole lot more, we could, we could say about this.

David Horsager:
Are there, are there structural things that you’ve seen that are working or you would recommend, I think, you know, people on, on some boards where it’s, there’s, there’s, there’s you know, there’s metrics, we are, we are, here’s one idea that in one company they change the equity equation by saying you can hire the best person for any job who you feel like is best for that job, but there has to be a top three, and one of those three has to be a person of color. And, and it, it actually, interestingly enough, this what some I could see, and I could see white folks possibly saying, well, that isn’t, you know, that, why do you need to do that? Or, you know, just, I just, you, you could see certain things being said, and yet that just put certain people in the room.

David Horsager:
It, it forced certain people to be in the room that actually from that group of three, then the number that were hired as best of many more of color and the health of the company and the output of the company went up. So they, they, they, they found a way to get the right people in the room without, without saying, you know, you have to hire 50% of this or that. And I think it, it was one simple idea, I guess I’m just asking your perspective on that. And are there other ideas that maybe we should be thinking about that can help, you know, start to solve this problem in our own spaces?

M. Gasby Brown:
Well, a couple things, there is a name for that procedure, and it’s called the Rooney rule where the three are, are finalists are captured. One of the things I, I really a bristle when someone says, we are trying to find, when you’re talking about those three, we’re trying to find qualified black people or minorities. Well, they wouldn’t be qualified. They, they have to be qualified to be one of the three. So what are you talking about? So eliminating that kind of lexicon is, is very important. I think it’s also very crucial for the diversity equity and inclusion person to report directly to the CEO and president that this is not someone down the line that reports to the HR person, but has the importance of being on the cabinet, if you will. And then also it’s very important, especially for corporations for that executive committee to be able to receive the frontline training and the hard nose training of diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. And therefore it trickles down from the top. If you start with the employees at a ground level, that is not the place to start, the entry level has to be at the top. And I’d also encourage white CEOs to seek training from experienced white DEI. People who have walked in their shoes, understand some of their discomforts and challenges. And it can be talked about in a very Frank manner. So those would be a few of the things that I would recommend right off the bat.

David Horsager:
Yeah, those are good ones, very good.

David Horsager:
Speaking of motivation, and I don’t always ask this one, but you know, if you’re trying to motivate someone else to do something, let’s take a board or a leader or a someone else needs to change that you’re dealing with. And many people think, well, motivation is just intrinsic. So whatever you wanna call it, if you wanna inspire ’em to do so, but you need to move someone to think differently or do something else. How do you motivate them

M. Gasby Brown:
By finding out where they are? Because I have to meet people where they are. So to come with a formulaic approach, oh, I’m gonna teach you this. And this is what you need to know. In my mind is not the most effective approach. The most effective approach is to find out where people are. So for example, on a board that probably as an uneven pattern of understanding of a certain topic first of all, do a little survey of how they feel about certain things and to get that in its aggregate and to have small group discussions so that you can have an understanding and they can have an understanding of each other, put things candidly on the table about it and discuss it in a transparent manner, moving from a, a base of knowledge about your audience is always very, very important instead of coming in with your own agenda. That is just one way

David Horsager:
Building on that. That would certainly be a huge part of it. Thank you for that. How would you go into a board? Let’s take a new board and build trust. How would you build it? You build it, but how would you build it amongst each other?

M. Gasby Brown:
Well, through small group interaction, first of all, you know, I facilitate a lot of board retreats and doing the kinds of things that help people to get to know one another. I ask them about what, what is something on your resume that no one else know that you don’t put on your resume? In other words, what is something about you that you don’t put on your resume? And people come up with some of the most fascinating answers that then connect, it’s almost like the Saint Francis of a Sisi. Oh, I didn’t know. You felt that way. We have something in common and that getting to know you and getting to know others is a very important part of trust. The fact that there is for people to be on a board, if it’s operated in the right way that you know, that you’re all there because you’re offering something good.

M. Gasby Brown:
But to get to know the people that you are navigating with on a deeper level is I think very important. And that helps to build the trust to know that you think I’m okay because I climb Hills and I do mountain climbing because you do that too. Right. And I just went on a, I didn’t, I don’t do this, but for a person to say yeah, I just went on a 26 mile hike and the person to say, you know, I did the same thing two years ago and begin to have that kind of interaction and, and, and speaking in a, a trustful way. I think about there’s a us trust, which bank of America and literally family school of philanthropy, longitudinal study, that’s done every two years for high network individual. And one of the things that they have indicated in this study is that they trust nonprofits to do the work that they cannot do themselves individually. Isn’t that a wonderful entry point that speaks to relationship. And I think the bottom line of all that I just said this long winded way of saying it, relationship is so important when building trust,

David Horsager:
Everything of value is built in trust. We do a process that I’m am proud of, and it’s had significant results in boards and organizations, but it’s something we call the trust shield. And it just, it, it basically is a process that helps people build connection and kind of see some of the things you talked about like, oh, you, oh, that, oh, I’ve had people with totally diverse views, a board that were just not working together at all. And one, they, they felt safe enough to say, well, I’m a, I’m a, I’m a Muslim. Well, I’m a Christian. Well, I’m a, this well I’m. And at the end of it, they all saw each other as human. And they work together in a whole new way. It was a, is it it’s, it’s a powerful powerful piece. And

M. Gasby Brown:
So, yes, indeed. And in fact, my book as you mentioned before, business of a spiritual matter was written for that interrelationship between the Abrahamic faith. And so it’s, it’s very much tied to what we have in common.

David Horsager:
It’s a great book. Tell, give people a quick overview of, of what they would get out of. This is business as a spiritual matter. And tell, tell, just give a quick overview Gaby.

M. Gasby Brown:
Well, it’s going to tell you about strategic planning from a to Z, and it will give leaders all of the foundations as of a year ago that give to various nonprofit organizations. It’s going to test leaders on few are chosen, many are called, but fewer chosen are you chosen to be a leader and to really stretch yourself, to think about what a chosen leader means, how to build a board? There’s an author that I like his name is author Arthur, France. He passed away. Now he wrote a book called not on this board. You don’t, and the dysfunctions of boards is something that I’m dealing with all the time. Clients are asking me to weigh in. And so in this book, it gives all the right tools to build a board to deal in and in self, self evaluation, how to evaluate board members, how to retain board member members. And just from a to Z, what it’s going to take, how to conduct a capital campaign. There’s a chapter in the book for Christian schools in particular that says the bake sale will never be enough . So ,

David Horsager:
I see it,

M. Gasby Brown:
How to conduct an annual giving campaign, all of these kinds of things that sustain a nonprofit with the right tools is part of, of the business of a spiritual matter.

Kent Svenson:
That’s it for this week’s episode, be sure to check out trusted leader, show.com for all the show notes and links and information from anything mentioned in today’s episode. And if you haven’t already, we would greatly appreciate a review on apple podcast, Spotify, Google, or wherever you get your podcast as this is a great way to help support the show and help others to discover it. But in the meantime, that’s it for this week’s episode. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time stay trusted.