David Horsager: Welcome to the trusted leader show it’s David Horsager and I’m thrilled to be here with a special guest.

David Horsager: He’s climbed peaks in 500 different locations around the world. He’s been a senior executive at Build a Bear when it went from 40 store locations to over 400 locations.

David Horsager: More than that, he’s an amazing family man leader, what we say in the businesses and I’ve seen him speak and it’s amazing onstage and offstage. So thanks so much for being here Manley Feinberg, the second

Manley Feinberg: Well, thank you, how are you

Manley Feinberg: I’m great. With me with your day.

David Horsager: It’s a treat to have you here. And it’s a treat to have someone that’s not just a leader, I respect but a friend. So hey, give us

David Horsager: You know, for people that don’t know you. And you know I know your book vertical lessons and I know you from seeing you on stage and sharing some stages but also just like let’s say three things that everybody should know about manly.

Manley Feinberg: Good question. So, my life is it’s the three or 12 years, my life has kind of been three track three parallel tracks and for 25 or so years.

Manley Feinberg: And I’m one of those tracks. You mentioned that this the climbing and I’ve been

Manley Feinberg: In college, and climbing have been really compelled to try to go to the coolest places I could go and experience cultures and challenge myself and climb places.

Manley Feinberg: Wherever the coolest place I could get to some of that some of us are outside of us. And then in parallel world. I was. I’ve always been in my heart and in my head really love business and especially small to mid sized business and worked with a lot of big companies to you, but

Manley Feinberg: You had a parallel life. Have you tried to make business happen and figure out how to grow a business and serve people and focus on that. So part of that.

Manley Feinberg: Is build a bear workshop was a fun laboratory. What’s interesting about that time my life.

Manley Feinberg: As as the more climbing travel and I did in the more business growth. I try to keep up with

Manley Feinberg: I would I would find that was really challenged coming back into the world of business and creating teams and doing things that I would did well in the mountains and

Manley Feinberg: How can I do that, how can you go halfway around the world meet someone who doesn’t speak English as an example.

Manley Feinberg: And create a team on the fly and then accomplish something you didn’t think was possible. And then yet and you know the business world, I would struggle, even with great HR teams and stuff.

Manley Feinberg: Assessments and interviewing and, you know, bringing in the best people. We can sometimes, it didn’t click right you think you’ve got the right team member. And so I really try to reverse engineer what worked well. So

Manley Feinberg: That is going to give me a unique perspective on leadership. I feel like and the overlap of what’s worked in those two worlds and then simultaneously as well. The third track of that that

Manley Feinberg: I really want people know about me is that my family, my immediate family, especially in my extended family. I’m very, very close to my two kids and my wife.

Manley Feinberg: And we, we have a really tight family unit. Our kids are 20 and 18 years old now at Colorado State University.

Manley Feinberg: And so that you’re balancing that mutual friend of ours, one time pointed out, he said, I think this is the biggest accomplishment.

Manley Feinberg: Mark share Brock and so your point is I think the biggest comps, your life is that your mother, your mother, your children is still within your wife’s Mary do right and

Manley Feinberg: So like that’s not easy to do you need to build a speaking business and the travel involved. And so, yeah, that’s so that that in the kids are in my introduction. When I go on stage, it says a

Manley Feinberg: Lot mainly like to sleep on the side of mountains and what’s crazier than that is his wife has been encouraging that for

Manley Feinberg: 27 years and his kids to his two teenagers still kiss on the cheek in front of friends, which is a true and just believe that. But yeah, so that’s the third piece I’m really proud of, as well. So

David Horsager: Well, speaking of stress in the midst of the pandemic, you and your family moved to kind of your dream area in the world where you’ve been wanting to move or thinking about moving for a long time. So, out to the

David Horsager: Colorado Rocky Mountains. What was, what was the biggest learning from moving in this time.

Manley Feinberg: Ah, ah,

Manley Feinberg: I think

Manley Feinberg: I didn’t

David Horsager: Do any of these

Manley Feinberg: You know, we’re not faking this

Manley Feinberg: That’s a good question. I believe, ultimately, it’s about

Manley Feinberg: This all starts with having a vision of something you really want. Right. And if that’s the first vertical lesson. The book is, is it worth it decide if it’s worth it.

Manley Feinberg: And I’ve really had. I mean, that’s what if this hadn’t been something we started in 2019 by the way that the actual moving and parts, components of it.

Manley Feinberg: If I hadn’t really really really deeply desired and admin at dream for 20 some 25 years to live in the mountains full time. I don’t think I ever would have been able to push through so

Manley Feinberg: Having something I really, really knew that would benefit us and we all believed in and in the kids to for us. We

Manley Feinberg: We didn’t want to just have our kids and shut them off and never see him again. I know a lot of people. That’s where they’re at. When they get to that point.

Manley Feinberg: But we have not found ourselves there. Matter of fact, I’m, I’m, you know, it’s hard for them. I’m into nesting now. So it’s really hard on me, at least in our life so

Manley Feinberg: So, believing in knowing what we were after right that that and believing that we could do it, and then just

Manley Feinberg: reeling back into like day to day what I have to do. What’s your day to day focus. What’s the current climate, we call it, you know, what’s the most important momentum.

Manley Feinberg: Initiative and keeping focused on that from your operational standpoint. So yeah, knowing that we wanted it what we wanted, and just focus in in zoom back out on a very tactical I just day to day

David Horsager: Yeah I know, it was challenging. We won’t get into that even more, but you’re glad you’re there and

David Horsager: That’s that’s it’s worked out.

David Horsager: Awesome. So back for a second because you’re talking about these 500 peaks and I want to get into business stuff too, but

David Horsager: But, you know, let’s go to somewhere like let’s say you show up in Nepal, like you have and you gotta build a team and they don’t speak English. These Sherpas or wherever. All you’re working with.

David Horsager: Just a glimpse on how do you build a high trust team or a team, you gotta trust them with your life are going up the mountain, whatever, how do you, how do you

David Horsager: build trust in that. And I know other continents, too. But that’s an interesting one. How do you, how do you build trust and build this team.

Manley Feinberg: So it’s really, it’s it is it. I knew it we would have a lot of synergy here in our conversations, right, because it’s pretty obvious when you see some I hang on that side of 2000 foot wall the rope and somebody has their hand.

Manley Feinberg: You know the wrote the ropes in the person’s hands literally holding your life in their hands. So the trust is. That’s really what it’s all about the thing

Manley Feinberg: What am I thinking through this. A lot of the ones that are there’s an assessment early obstacles, you have to overcome, I believe, and then you can go deeper, but on, you know, fundamentally, especially the climbing world.

Manley Feinberg: We need to know that and believe that person’s competent and enter that we can

Manley Feinberg: Trust that they they got the core skills right just from a basic functional level. Can you stop the fall. Do you know how to stop a fall, do not have built an anchor system.

Manley Feinberg: On the wall that will protect us and guarantee that we’re not going to, you know, fall off the wall.

Manley Feinberg: Or they will stay attached. If we do slip so competence is a big piece of it and then you’re getting a lot of times when I met people on an exhibition, you don’t have the time to really get to know them at the personal level.

Manley Feinberg: But we usually go out in a more limited make a limited commitment on a smaller objective to try to build trust and see how

Manley Feinberg: The person climbs and what their techniques are confirm our confidence and their competence.

Manley Feinberg: being super transparent is a really key piece to right. So there’s if their health issues or their competency issues or weaknesses are strings.

Manley Feinberg: The team is, you know, you’ve got to be, you can’t. It’s not a place you can be s at all right so you need to

Manley Feinberg: You know people that you have to sometimes be very, very personal rights on it like personal health issues or like you’re going to the bat you’re going to the bathroom hanging on the side of the wall right shoulder to shoulder with people is pretty

Manley Feinberg: Pretty intense and that so it’s worth an extreme trust test in that way. So,

Manley Feinberg: Those are a few things I don’t. That’s where you were.

David Horsager: You know what you i think it’s it’s interesting you know you you said this quoted it was in your book you die without right relationships.

David Horsager: And then that’s whether it’s on the mountain or I think in person. And I just thought, coming back to that I make, and see how that would be. You could die without the relationship

David Horsager: But there’s companies and marriages dying all the time without the right relationships in a way to

David Horsager: Yeah, but how do you, how do you build those relationships because, in your case, especially on the let’s take an international climb. You got to build some of those relationships pretty fast and

David Horsager: You know, it’s, it’s funny at I don’t know the eight pillars of trust, one of the pillars is

Manley Feinberg: Competency right yeah you’ve

David Horsager: Got to be competent, but I also have to have character and active connection and you can’t have

David Horsager: The deepest connection with everybody work with or this kind of thing. But how do you, how do you even build that you know before you’re

David Horsager: Hanging on the side of the mountain with with a with a you know a little rope or or whatever, you know, it’s like, how do you, how do you build that. So, you know,

Manley Feinberg: I think the key is it relates to what you said about you mentioned as well that you know that relationships and business and at homes right now or you’re really struggling and there’s

Manley Feinberg: I think that one of the things that what happens is in compared to contrast in this mix. I think climbing is easier mountain climbing is easier than day to day relationships and business and personal life.

Manley Feinberg: And because of this in the climbing environment. The risk is completely amplified and it’s very clear, very acutely aware of that, you know,

Manley Feinberg: It’s like when you’re driving the icy road or you’re like, Okay, I know this conditions are unsafe right now I have to be more careful and you’re more focused hopefully

Manley Feinberg: In Touch your phone lesson. And so in the climbing the world. It also it demands demands a level presence and focus and awareness that is not necessarily demanded upon us today today.

Manley Feinberg: In that we can fall into sleep or just be especially right now we’re at so much going on in the pandemic and even a normal life whether we’re

Manley Feinberg: Caught up in an epic crisis like we are, or life’s going great. We’re so busy. And one of the things I say a lot of awareness is the first step to your next summit.

Manley Feinberg: So I think the biggest part for me is as it’s in what I encourage people to do is to become more aware and have you got to build in reflection time

Manley Feinberg: And create an environment, whether it’s a walk or spiritual place or an outdoor place or your living room out, you know, whatever that spot is in your life where

Manley Feinberg: You can create some space to think and listen and hear in in and think through those relationships as an example and have a sense of how they are right.

Manley Feinberg: That’s a, that’s a really key part. There are some tactical pieces we could talk about to within that applied directly to life in business.

Manley Feinberg: And evaluating the relationship, but it’s more. I mean, this is this is a piece that it’s it’s tough, because it’s kind of a nebulous thing too, but but I think it’s maybe the most important piece. It’s just the driving awareness.

David Horsager: What is something here where, like you said, like we get to go to tactical what is something

David Horsager: That will help me tactically build relationship quicker. You know, if I’m putting my whether I’m working on a team in on a big project that has to

Manley Feinberg: Be

David Horsager: Is due tomorrow for a

David Horsager: Client or you know something different. What is you get a specific

Manley Feinberg: Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a one thing. And so we call this, there’s one core piece of that relationship on the climb is called the bull. A BL a lie right in the ballet is the mechanism by which the road and the climbers are protected.

Manley Feinberg: That is so when you when you fall, we expect that you’re going to fall. That’s another thing to cash out to people they go you fall like yeah we we expect to fall.

Manley Feinberg: Not to fail the diary to fail, right. So in our, in our world is like, I expect to fall. So I build systems in place that will allow for me, give me capacity to fall and be protected and safe.

Manley Feinberg: But that all depends on the person, literally, holding your wife in their hands with the rope.

Manley Feinberg: So they’re really there for things you have to do well to be a great delay to build those great relationships. And the first one is just to really encourage and to be present, which is a battle in itself right to be President.

David Horsager: Stop you right here. My uncle I, excuse me, my cousin is climbing a wall at a camp that he’s the director of

David Horsager: And he’s done all the safety training and everything. And the person on belay just looked away for a second.

David Horsager: He only 10 feet and he broke his back.

David Horsager: Oh, that is the, you know, didn’t die. Thankfully wasn’t in a mountain, but that moment of just not being present for just a moment.

David Horsager: It only takes that right when they weren’t

Manley Feinberg: They were

David Horsager: They were there to belay

Manley Feinberg: And broken back

Manley Feinberg: Anyway, keep

Manley Feinberg: Yes.

David Horsager: That’s a good that’s a reminder that being present.

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, right. And that’s it. So being present and encouraging as part of that too. Right, letting people know you believe in them. And that’s one thing I’ve been

Manley Feinberg: encouraging people to do during this whole thing is just pick a person every day and let them know, hey, man, I know you’ve got this. I believe in you.

Manley Feinberg: I don’t know exactly how we’re going through this bag. I know you’re part of this part of me making it through this so that for the next piece is

Manley Feinberg: Making sure that you don’t have too much slack out so literally when you, when the person is climbing the person feature rope. Right. And you can feed out too much rope. If you’re not paying attention and have a big loop of slack running down

Manley Feinberg: And then when the person falls. If there’s too much roadmap a fall too far right.

Manley Feinberg: So this is the equivalent of this in the world of life in business is, you know, putting off conversations that are uncomfortable as an example. So one of the

Manley Feinberg: lenses through which ask people to look at and attach away as far as relationships is what, where do I have too much slack out in my life.

Manley Feinberg: Relationship wise, right. So whether it’s a brother friend colleague direct report. So when you work with

Manley Feinberg: Who you haven’t connected with on a regular basis. Are you you’re overdue. Right. You just letting that relationship withering a bit

Manley Feinberg: Opposite of that is, it’s just as difficult can be as a just as a problematic is is making sure that the reps. Not too tight.

Manley Feinberg: Because the also if you’re when you’re when you’re on belay for someone, if you do if you don’t feed enough rope and you literally can hold them back. So the person can’t move.

Manley Feinberg: Right, so we call this micromanaging and business right and that is a very powerful and I worked with leaders to have them sit back for a second and just listen to those two questions. The

Manley Feinberg: answers come to you. Who do I have on too much slack out right now. And then we’re might not be holding the rope too tight for people

Manley Feinberg: And usually I mean, almost every single time. Some, some pops up in both personal, professional in both those areas.

Manley Feinberg: The fourth piece is the law is really blocking off the rope when the person does actually fall

Manley Feinberg: So that they are false stops as quickly as possible. And so that’s that also requires presence and being aware and connected so that, you know, hey, the person slipped or they’re slipping.

Manley Feinberg: Or they’re in a very precarious situation and I need a lot the robe off and and you know have a conversation with them at least and support them in a way that enables them to get get going again and get back on the feet.

David Horsager: That’s that’s tremendous. You know, one of the things that I wrote on this once. But going back to number three I say one of the keys to leadership is being able to have tough conversations

David Horsager: And we also talked about this were in crisis is your greatest opportunity to build trust. I mean, in those tough conversations. That’s when you have that best opportunity to build it the fastest when you how you handle that. Right. How you handle the tough.

David Horsager: Problems, it’s easy to see people do well when it’s all easy but boy, how you respond in a crisis and I bet, I bet if you, you know you’re in a crisis on the mountain and something terrible happens and you see someone respond right you’ll trust them more next time to go up that that

David Horsager: That that’s fantastic. So lets you know how to get inspired. I know I see behind you. For those of you just listening.

David Horsager: You’ve got two pictures of El Capitan behind you. I mean, tell us what’s the specialist because I see you’re on a sheer cliff there on the side of alone doesn’t even look like ever wrote. But I think you do.

David Horsager: That, well, both of them.

David Horsager: But that’s, that’s a special place to you. Tell me about it.

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, you’re sitting back by the way for everybody listening or watching a Yosemite. If you’ve not been to Yosemite National Park. You have you been, David.

David Horsager: I you know it’s interesting about that I have not

David Horsager: You know, but not all 50 states and six continents out of seven, not Antarctica. We were going for Christmas break this year or a trip.

David Horsager: Coming up, we were going to go kind of get an RV and go all out west done a lot of the national Yellowstone and all those places.

David Horsager: And just, is that going to be that great over winter with now it’s pan, then you know all these things. And so we’re talking about it, talking about going there and we haven’t yet so it’s on my radar.

Manley Feinberg: Trust me. Yeah. So after after going over 500 destinations around the world. That’s my number one favorite place in the world.

Manley Feinberg: And you don’t. You do not have to be a climber to appreciate it and the vast majority of visitors are not commerce to go there. It’s absolutely worth it. So for me, it’s, it’s nothing inspires me more than being in the outdoors.

Manley Feinberg: And that’s the thing, you know, if you get to a cool exotic place that’s great, but I’ve, you know, I’ve had encourage people just to get out in their backyard or, you know, little local park or anything.

Manley Feinberg: They need to push yourself to to get out more in the outdoors. And I think we’re more connected to the source and

Manley Feinberg: And and it’s just, that’s for me very inspiring. And then remember the people and this is the challenge. I mean, we have, you know, some

Manley Feinberg: Really really act up here, right, it’s really been challenging

Manley Feinberg: For me, it’s been really important. Try to remember, especially since I’m not physically with the people that serve, then that’s where I get that a lot of inspiration that’s been really challenging. So I have tried to connect with people virtually is like everyone as much as possible.

David Horsager: What’s worked

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, just so as far as virtual programs and retreats and keynotes. And so I’ve been doing like the zoom kind of thing, like a lot of people that I think when

Manley Feinberg: If you can just a little tactical tip for people. Right. We’re looking at the camera and this is still see it on these, you know, I’m working with a high level really high level sales team recently.

Manley Feinberg: And just your press and they’re trying to meet with people on zoom to make sales happen.

Manley Feinberg: Your presence on zoom. It’s not that it’s not rocket science. It’s not that hard. But being present look in the camera makes a huge difference.

Manley Feinberg: And having decent lighting. It doesn’t take anything really expensive or fancy, but that’s helpful wouldn’t be in it on on the

Manley Feinberg: On the emotional you know leadership influenced side I think you’re being authentic and let people know

Manley Feinberg: That that you believe in them that you don’t necessarily have it all figured out and let nothing like that.

Manley Feinberg: I’m struggling to and in the caring. Right. I know you and I are both very aligned on that. And I was thinking about this a lot today that

Manley Feinberg: You know the tough guy leadership can work in certain scenarios but I even know like really really exceptional of military leaders as an example that

Manley Feinberg: I think that’s a myth. By the way, that in the military, since it’s authoritarian that you don’t have that people have to care.

Manley Feinberg: And people don’t need to know you care about them and every multi charity leader that I know that’s been successful said now that’s, you know, we are we are started. Oh, yeah.

Manley Feinberg: But they know how much we care about their family and the people in their lives and and you know he’s like the authority only goes you know

David Horsager: So far, and I can totally

Yeah.

David Horsager: Well, I gotta, I gotta call out one more thing from what you said, you know, we had. We’ve got four kids. And how many kids, you have

Manley Feinberg: To. Yeah. Boy, girl.

Manley Feinberg: Manly version. You’ve done a lot of

David Horsager: Climbing with

Manley Feinberg: Those pictures.

David Horsager: But you said something about getting outside

Manley Feinberg: And and and

David Horsager: Certainly some people are more moved to be outside than others, and we love love love getting outside, but I was thinking we when our, our oldest when she was just a baby she would just just call it or whatever, just cry cry cry cry cry.

Manley Feinberg: And here we are in Minnesota. She’s born in

David Horsager: February, you know,

David Horsager: For referral, but we could do one thing and stop it. Just step outside to step outside for a second. And she said, Oh, and it wasn’t just because it was bitter cold.

Manley Feinberg: Even in June, you know,

David Horsager: July and we lived in a little place, then we’re starting our first company. We had no money to speak of. But we’d get out of this little duplex or

David Horsager: Double bungalow and we just shoot. Just go create and we could get outside, it’s like, wow, something about that getting outside and feeling the wind.

David Horsager: Yes, God’s creation and whatever, you know, it’s

Manley Feinberg: With your loved ones. See, that’s like the ultimate combo. And the second part of that for me is if I can do that. My wife and kids. It’s just, it’s magic. You know, I think, I think there’s

Manley Feinberg: There’s no doubt. I think I mean some people had bad experiences in the outdoors, so they don’t they don’t do it, but I get out much. But yeah, I think we’re really meant to be.

Manley Feinberg: You know, connected to the in the outdoors and it if you think about historically we’ve been around a lot longer than all the infrastructure and comfort we built

Manley Feinberg: So all those years of wiring are are really powerful. If you can love reductionism lot of studies that show that your brain chemistry from creativity and from productivity and it actually directly impacts your walk on a treadmill versus a walk in the park or dramatically different.

David Horsager: Tell me this, you know, your executive years and you’ve had leadership, a lot of different places and you have your own company now and all that, but

David Horsager: Build a Bear, that’s a fascinating place. You were there in the just the growth stages from, you know, 4400 plus stores. What were some things that you learned from that experience that we might take away as we grow company.

Manley Feinberg: That’s a great, great question. You don’t have learned most from Build A Bear and it’s really the secret don’t bury it right wants to know, like what’s the secret.

Manley Feinberg: What, what, how did you take a teddy bear. Not me. I was a team, right, and I’m not the founder, by the way, people sometimes get that mixed up. Give me more credit than I do but

Manley Feinberg: When what was made what we were selling as an experience. It’s not about the bear. I mean that that’s the object, but

Manley Feinberg: You can buy a teddy bear anywhere in this is probably the founder Maxine Clark. So, good friend of mine.

Manley Feinberg: She heard this over and over, when she went to the investors initially pure like where you can get a teddy bear anywhere. What’s

Manley Feinberg: It’s about the experience. And so he and I think the customer experience is not nothing new. And most people know what that means. The difference is

Manley Feinberg: That we were relentless about everything we did that the customer experience informed every single decision in the company and i mean i mean obsessive Lee from start to finish.

Manley Feinberg: It’s a very, it’s like it’s like for you like the organization’s you’re involved with and you influence that are ideal and know what trust really is about

Manley Feinberg: It’s not uncompromising like this is how we operate right. So a couple examples. One we coated EVERY Bathroom and every store.

Manley Feinberg: For at public access and we built it to code for public access, which is more expensive right and and it operationally can be

Manley Feinberg: You know, kind of epic. It can be problematic. But Maxine’s question was always that, you know, if someone comes to your home and they ask you to use the restroom.

Manley Feinberg: What’s the answer, of course, right. So we went to great lengths to make sure that people can use the restroom and it was really just for that very. So we could say yes to that answer.

Manley Feinberg: That’s, you know, that’s the kind of decision. I don’t think gets made, unless you’re really relentlessly focused on

Manley Feinberg: What, how does this affect the experience. So, and I was a lot involved a lot in our software systems in business. Every business system that was behind the scenes running the business, especially first half of my career.

Manley Feinberg: All those decisions. You know how you there’s a lot of, you know, do we do we make this decision that makes us most profitable.

Manley Feinberg: On the short front end versus how does this affect the process of that I know as a point of sale. As an example, when people come into the register.

Manley Feinberg: Their decisions you have efficiency versus customer experience. And anyway, we always came back to that another quick one was just operationally people get a kick out of it as

Manley Feinberg: We told people that you know people can use a phone. And so they came and asked before cell phones were so so ubiquitous.

Manley Feinberg: Someone needs to use the phone. You say, yeah, absolutely. And then so people always ask what it was long distance

Manley Feinberg: We had a great long distance rate, let them use the phone. So it just you know those experiences that focusing on the customer experience with being really

Manley Feinberg: Whatever you know you if you’re watching this reading or listening. Maybe you’re committed to the customer experience, but

Manley Feinberg: I would challenge you to take that to a completely different level. And it’s going to pay off that it does, it pays off. And it makes a huge difference when you are seeing the world through that. Yeah, that’s true highly valued, no matter what for you.

David Horsager: That’s a, that’s a great. I mean, it’s been fun to watch you grow and all these things. What, what do you, what are you doing now to grow, you know, we talked about, what are you learning these days. What’s your top kind of

David Horsager: Learning in the process, you’re in right now, and your own company and and all that you’re doing. Now, what’s the key learning right now.

Manley Feinberg: I’d say Hi, I have a degree in psychology and so I’ve always been fascinated with psychology. Why do we do we want to do, why do we not do what we should know we should do.

Manley Feinberg: Why do we do things. We shouldn’t be doing it. All right. And so for me right now. I’m trying to re engineer my brain and

Manley Feinberg: Especially with this year and all the stress and I have noticed that

Manley Feinberg: I think

Manley Feinberg: Having a little bit of an edge has a pro posttraumatic stress because then people go through like war and stuff. They’re like, really extreme I think have

Manley Feinberg: Just some subtle version of that. And I think a lot. I’ve heard other experts talk about this, that, you know, we’ve gone through a lot of trauma this year as a world and as a humanity.

Manley Feinberg: And so for me, there’s just little, little clues things that my system got I got so much with all the moving personal stuff going on my capacity to handle stressful events.

Manley Feinberg: Was lowered right but my stress was so high you that we will have this page right you’re driving home like one little thing set you off that normally wouldn’t set you off.

Manley Feinberg: So I’m trying to get that water level back down in part of that as me as being an awareness that we talked about earlier right and and becoming aware of the thought. Just a thought patterns presenting

Manley Feinberg: In in the looping, you know, like, oh, you know, whether it’s dreadful or you’re not feeling good, or are you being pessimistic in being aware of those thought patterns and just dropping them.

Manley Feinberg: Which meditation helps me with a lot, by the way. So that’s a we talk some about that. But, um, but, yeah, that’s so that’s growth wise. I’m trying to work on.

Manley Feinberg: How the emotional response and you know the cocktail of endorphins and hormones that we drop in the bloodstream and we’re presented with a stimulus. It’s basic science but changing it is, you know, changing humans is not easy.

David Horsager: So to that point, you said something to the book in the book, by the way, is vertical lessons and you can go to vertical lessons calm to see a whole lot more about Langley.

David Horsager: Excuse me, but mainly or watch him speak or anything else but you talking about challenging beliefs. Like, I’m thinking and you talk, you know,

David Horsager: A lot of people when they go climbing with you’ve taken executive teams climbing when when there wasn’t a pandemic and that’s part of what you do.

David Horsager: But you got people that are scared or fearful and I’m thinking about myself right so you know this about me but I

David Horsager: You know 20 plus years ago I was caught under something in in water and almost drown. I had been a lifeguard. And I love to swim, but I’m underneath this this basically big black thick.

David Horsager: Blanket. Basically, and you know, can’t get out and think I’m gonna die. Open my eyes under there. And finally, you know, find a way out. But, but it kind of it’s made me claustrophobic and

David Horsager: You know, I think I often tell people you know of the

David Horsager: Couple hundred flights. I’ve often done a year 100 maybe 100 round trips, you know, people don’t pay me to be there. I love what I speak about I love what I share on. I love the boardroom work that I do, but

David Horsager: Getting on that plane, especially if I’m not on the outside. I’ll and everybody stands up

David Horsager: And I feel like I can’t move. Like, I get it. And I can feel that. And I think, well, okay, how do I challenge this belief or, you know, it’s like it’s

David Horsager: Easy to say I’ll challenge this belief of whatever, whatever it is, the challenges. But how do you actually challenge it to change.

David Horsager: In a positive way.

Manley Feinberg: It’s a great, great question, because the whole lesson is challenging your beliefs. But the other the pre pre a point is

Manley Feinberg: Stop chasing behaviors. Right. So in environment of, you know, like a team that team environment you see someone you keep telling me what you want. What you need them to do and they’re not doing it as a great example. So this is

Manley Feinberg: A little bit simpler, probably, than what you’re dealing with. To be able to look at that situation and say,

Manley Feinberg: Okay, I’ve had keep asking you to do this. This is the behavior. I’m asking for

Manley Feinberg: But why are you not doing it. What do you, what is your belief that you must be so you can do this in a very disarming way, by the way, it’s really can create a shoulder to shoulder environment versus head to head.

Manley Feinberg: You know, what is it, what are you, what is it, what is your belief about, you know, doing this process. In this way, or why you skipping this step as you keep I keep asking you to keep in this conversation.

Manley Feinberg: What’s the belief behind that. What’s driving that. So it takes. It’s a harder conversation, but it gets you to the result faster. I think for what you’re talking about. And, you know, challenging your belief.

Manley Feinberg: Around a fear right is them and I, by the way, I’m a lot of you think I’m just some crazy no fear kind of guy, but your story about drilling terrifies me.

Manley Feinberg: I here’s another good example I would have no interest of jumping out of a plane. I had a 75 year old grandma walk up to me after keynote. And she said, Would you would imagine. Oh yeah, that’ll

Manley Feinberg: Never. She said, Do you want it. Would you go parachuting with me. And I said, No, ma’am. I have no

Manley Feinberg: Interest in jumping out of a plane. She said, good. I’ll never go rock common view that looks crazy. I said, Well, what your day looks crazy to me. So it’s all relative. Right. We have these

Manley Feinberg: These paradigms. We get into and settled into and concrete ourselves into and based on your experience. I mean that’s that’s there’s a there’s a really good example of what I’m talking about right we you have this event.

Manley Feinberg: And your brain is created. It’s got it confused this stimulus is you’ve got the response confused and other scenarios that shouldn’t be. But it’s sort of related right, it feels the same way in some way.

Manley Feinberg: One thing is I think it’s really helpful that I’ve kind of discovered accidentally with a major life decision is it when things are our head. We have there’s

Manley Feinberg: Enough. We’re not very emotionally guarded people human beings. Internally, we still have, it’s just part of the chemistry right our biology biology that we have emotions swimming around and hormones in our brain and

Manley Feinberg: Our responses to stimulus, stimulus around us. So it’s really hard to to get to separate that. So you can get clarity and what’s really factual and what’s

Manley Feinberg: Been amplified by emotions so use an old fashioned pen and paper and writing out

Manley Feinberg: To two different ways to go about it. One is, Ryan. What’s the worst case scenario will say facing a difficult decision and this isn’t another exercise, it’s in the book.

Manley Feinberg: What’s the worst case if you try this if you move forward with this initiative or this decision in your life.

Manley Feinberg: And it doesn’t work. What’s the worst case scenario, what would you do step by step to recover from it. And if you write that out versus just talking about it. It makes it’s amazing when the pen. It’s the paper.

Manley Feinberg: Fear separates from fact if you can get it out of your head. Some right so journaling can be powerful. In that sense, and then

Manley Feinberg: This is asking great questions. We talked about offline as well at something and other vertical SS right questions my meditation coach through this question on me recently as, what does this mean what are, what is this about what is this is the shortest version of what is this

Manley Feinberg: So this is a when you feel that way when you get on a plane that’s a question to ask yourself, What is this, you know what, what, what am I feeling

Manley Feinberg: And then even better, right, that response down right the I’m responding to feeling constricted and

Manley Feinberg: You know it’s claustrophobic. It’s because of drowning thing I’m on a plane. I know planes are safe. You write out the facts that you know in your head and just

Manley Feinberg: Write a brainstorm that out and then read it back to yourself, you know, on the read out loud, but every bag and when it’s interesting when you see the words on paper versus the words just swimming or head. It can be really liberating.

David Horsager: I’ll just read it to the my seatmate that sees me sweating.

As

David Horsager: I’m just, I’m just going to read this to you really quick.

David Horsager: You want to stay sitting by me.

David Horsager: So, so let’s take that one more level because you know I was interested in the asking, you know, one of the vertical lessons is really about learning to ask better questions and you know another person.

David Horsager: On the podcast Patricia Fripp says that the key to converse, say, the key to connections conversation key to conversations questions.

David Horsager: Therefore, learn to ask, great questions.

David Horsager: And I mean you can you can lead but through questions you can drive conversation through questions, but just give us some help on as as a trusted leader. What are some great questions, or how do you come to great questions that actually help lead motivate whatever

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, they you know that

Manley Feinberg: It’s a term that loop, right. So I think that one of the keys is you have to listen first

Manley Feinberg: And for. So if you’re talking about yourself. First of all, we talk about personal leadership some offline to that, how big a piece of this whole puzzle that is for us.

Manley Feinberg: Knowing paying attention. So here’s the example like right there. We talked about you. If you get on the plane, you’re feeling comfortable listening to yourself and heaven realizing having that awareness to step out of that.

Manley Feinberg: Mental thinking loop in your one part of your brain. Try protect yourself.

Manley Feinberg: And being aware of that and listening to that and then being able to respond to what it’s what’s going on here. What is this, I think. So often we were sitting there with

Manley Feinberg: geared up to say we’re going to say, or to how we’re hearing something and we’re just, we’re just ready to respond and

Manley Feinberg: Everything is geared towards saying when I’m here to say when I build up my mind. Gotta say to this person.

Manley Feinberg: And not so much about what are they saying right now. I think we need to prepare. Right. We need to know what we’re going to say, but I think we don’t spend nearly as much time just on what’s the

Manley Feinberg: Here’s a great question for people is, what’s the most important question I can ask to move this forward.

Manley Feinberg: What do and even just a simple version. What’s the most important question I can ask right now that I need to ask. So going into a meeting as an example in because we’re always focused on what we need. We know we need to say, I want to say right

David Horsager: I love because people want the right question, but the question is to ask for what’s the right question then, because the white right question changes every moment with every context.

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I

David Horsager: Love it when you said some about personal leadership, you know,

David Horsager: We believe I’ve said this for a long time, you know, in my quest of helping change, global governments and companies and organizations and all these things, trying to transform things with trust that companies and organizations and even countries they don’t change only individuals change.

David Horsager: But when an individual changes than a team of Family marriage.

David Horsager: Even a company or country can change. And you’ll see that in history. But what’s something you do to lead yourself like you know if if you’re going to change. Others, you’re

Manley Feinberg: You’re working on yourself, what

David Horsager: What’s something you’re doing right now.

Manley Feinberg: I’m just fundamentals. I’m trying to stay in which says surprises a lot of people. I’m not an athlete and even I’ve done athletic things I’m not inherently like

Manley Feinberg: motivated to run as an example or workout every day.

Manley Feinberg: And for some people that are really naturally driven. For me, it’s always been a battle which most Americans, and most people around the world. I think share that same internal battle.

Manley Feinberg: So for me, it’s just fundamentals like that, trying to make sure I’m still eating pretty well, but trying to be more active, which I have been since I’ve been in the mountains full time.

Manley Feinberg: And then on the mental side mental, spiritual side and also ties and emotions is I’ve been meditating. I wonder how many days are over. Now it’s a I can look

Manley Feinberg: So I meditated for at least five minutes, usually I try to tend to 20 but it’s not always 20 minutes 873 days in a row now.

Manley Feinberg: If you really knew me, and which I, you know, you really look pretty well. I’m not a very consistent I’m sort of, you know, bounce around and do different things. I’m not a person who is rigid and have a lot of routine and like our friend Mark blocher as it pops up in my mind is

Manley Feinberg: So it really discipline and does the same routine every day is very good about that for me. I’m the opposite. So it’s, that’s a real struggle but meditation for me has made a huge, huge difference.

Manley Feinberg: In that whole awareness piece and just being aware of the thought and the ego trying to protect ourselves and going through all the scenarios of, you know, fear and otherwise, and worry about

David Horsager: Meditation means a lot of things for different people, what’s, what’s that mean to you.

Manley Feinberg: Yeah. For me, it’s just heard this explanation. The other day of death definition I guess you would say it’s it’s your relationship with your thoughts.

Manley Feinberg: Is that what meditation is really about right is developing that relationship with your thoughts and that, first of all, just being aware of your thoughts nature. I mean, somebody had no separation a realization of that at all.

Manley Feinberg: But most people if you asked him say, Have you ever had a situation where you just realize, hey, man, I’m overthinking this or I’m just freaking out a little bit and I need to, you know,

Manley Feinberg: So when you have that awareness and you realize that. Who’s that who’s having that awareness, right, that

Manley Feinberg: In fact, that’s roommate. Your head is talking and being and you have a sense of like that’s not so that having that clarity on who your true

Manley Feinberg: Self is and from this kind of deep from a spiritual physiological standpoint, but your consciousness is can be aware of your thinking, man, right. So just

Manley Feinberg: Developing that awareness and being able to drop those thoughts, especially if they’re not helpful right that you have your

Manley Feinberg: Your this one part of your brain is in charge of running the program. It’s like your computer, right, left brain got to get

Manley Feinberg: And it’s very good. We need it for a lot of things all day long, but it also does a lot of things aren’t very helpful and

Manley Feinberg: You know, number one of which is worrying and and ruminating thoughts over and over. And I think, you know, that’s been

Manley Feinberg: I mean, everybody. I think none of every single person, but most people have talked to you this year that

Manley Feinberg: Have been challenged with that stress of that and worry and it’s natural. And so the Harbour Bridge supposed to do supposed to keep us alive.

Manley Feinberg: So meditation for for me is about developing my ability to not let that influence being in a negative way, and to be centered and then that yields focus and more clarity and peace and puts me in a more position position to be a more loving person as well.

David Horsager: And and does that come from any is that just start with a blank slate or is there a faith beyond yourself or spiritual component or is it just start with my thoughts and you know i mean this is that totally out of curiosity,

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, yeah. So for me that there is a spiritual component it but it doesn’t have to be.

Manley Feinberg: I know atheist to meditate. And so, and especially that that’s one reason I like that definition it’s you know it’s about your relationship with your thoughts in whether you come from a spiritual standpoint or not it is

Manley Feinberg: For me, I have a kind of interesting religious background, but my half my family’s Jewish and I was raised in a Catholic home.

Manley Feinberg: Growing up in that study Eastern religion and in my current my meditation teacher is a spiritual director as well for me and he’s extremely well versed and we pull he pulls from all different religions.

Manley Feinberg: And so for me it really all comes down to Love Wins and it loves her when no exception, which is Jesus as primary leading principle. Right.

Manley Feinberg: And so that when I when I get confused or unclear that motive, you know, talking about your question i motivation that drives me to come back to, like, what is this about him. It’s really about me serving

Manley Feinberg: And trying to serve. And the more we suffer the sufferings almost always focused on our own focus, you know, focus on ourselves versus others so

Manley Feinberg: That’s a really key piece of it as well as try and get you know

Manley Feinberg: Take care of others and focus on others. And we can’t. There’s not as much room for suffering because we’re we’re focused on me.

Manley Feinberg: Like, I love your thing, too, about your you know your wife and your big speech that moment when your license let tell them you let them know you love them or love them love the audience right now I hundred percent. That’s my whole

Manley Feinberg: Operate when I’m in my rights when I’m operating my best. That’s, that’s where I’m coming from and try to make sure I i think that same for leadership. Right. You don’t have to be honest stage.

David Horsager: Sorry much, but that was when I was a, you know, introduced and receiving a word and basically I just

David Horsager: One thing. My wife has said to me for years backstage when she was traveling with me or from afar. If she’s texting me, and she just said don’t worry about the research. Don’t think about all these things you’re worried about all these things. David just love them. They can tell when

Manley Feinberg: You want them.

David Horsager: And that’s the same whether it’s one on one or one on 1000 is

David Horsager: Making the audience can tell

David Horsager: If that speaker entertainer motivators about all about themselves, or if they’re actually about them, you know, the audience, but if they care about the audience and

Manley Feinberg: But

David Horsager: Yeah, so I want to back up one one second to one thing you said about food because I’m interested in health and keeping healthy. It’s not easy, you know,

David Horsager: A decade ago, almost lost 52 pounds in five months I’ve kept you know I’ve been able to keep about 40 of that off by changing habits, but you know it’s work every day to stay

David Horsager: Fit And Healthy and all that. But you said something about eating right what what what’s that mean what’s what’s, what are some tips that you do, what, what are some things you do to

Manley Feinberg: Yeah.

Manley Feinberg: I guess eating right, good.

Manley Feinberg: Question. So that’s, by the way, it’s been a I have a brother who was a professional quarterback and so I kind of grew up around habit for me and athletes and

Manley Feinberg: So, you know, examining for me is even where that speaker leader, you know, part of part of, I think part of our conversation we’re going to be the best human we can be in serve, we need to live long and healthy life have energy. Right. And so I take it serious as part of part of that whole

Manley Feinberg: Question of how do we, what can we do to optimize our life. So that’s, that’s part of the why, for me, one thing I agree, and I drink a lot of green juice and

Manley Feinberg: The what

Manley Feinberg: You’ve done juicer. I’ve got a juicer. I got a Blendtec all these different you know I’ve done all that to very time consuming as the problem with a lot of that and that convenience issue right it’s the number one issue of Americans here with it.

Manley Feinberg: So here’s a tip for easy tactical tip for people. There’s a grape juice. I like called Soulja is then when it makes it su J. K.

Manley Feinberg: And there’s these big 46 ounce jugs of it. You can get at most big grocery stores. Whole Foods even mainstream groceries.

Manley Feinberg: One is focused on grapefruit is one of the primary ingredients. It’s pretty if you don’t like grapefruit and don’t like green tea. It’s a pretty strong flavor.

Manley Feinberg: I’ve grown to love it though. It’s kind of Queen. She’s got celery and cucumber and stuff in it. There’s another one that’s

Manley Feinberg: It’s a little bit harder to find, but same brand Soulja

Manley Feinberg: I think it’s called a mighty doesn’t an apple juice is the primary based on greed and that so it’s it’s naturally more sweet, it’s got this nice little zing to as well. Ginger in it.

Manley Feinberg: And it’s green. So those are both actually cheaper than we figured out, it’s cheaper than me bond organic produce. Not to mention the time it takes to run it all up.

Manley Feinberg: So I drink a ton of green juice it on video consistent attracted on habitat by the way along. That sounded how many days I meditated in a row. So I track my green juice. Try 12 basic really basic habits that track that in one of which is the green juice.

David Horsager: Give us a couple more of those habits, just for the fun of it right

Manley Feinberg: Yeah. Yeah, good question.

Manley Feinberg: So there. Yeah, there’s, there’s not discipline, but I know better.

Manley Feinberg: I don’t feel like I am.

David Horsager: habits that I track every day. That’s got to be a top percentage of something

Manley Feinberg: The percentage that execute. Most of them is not very has I got the trace

Manley Feinberg: Trace fair default. So I can run through them real quick. Actually it so the current climb. This is your, what’s your most important initiative that you’re working on your life.

Manley Feinberg: Did I move that forward that make one move towards that strategic and tactical focus workout more some kind of workout just five minutes is the goal, by the way.

Manley Feinberg: So you lower the resistance. If you have, the more resistance. Lower the time and you can overcome some mental barriers.

Manley Feinberg: sauna cold plunge of breath work which I haven’t been doing much lately, but I have a sauna and a cold plunge and I do for some mental mental and physical work there and bringing work.

Manley Feinberg: Through a 3D moment my loved ones everyday sisters are the kids away. So that means having a phone call or even just a quick video message or something that’s not just a text message.

Manley Feinberg: And then on the business side I have a pipeline touching it’s moving something forward in the pipeline from the business development standpoint as well as outreach.

Manley Feinberg: Go and then backside here journaling and I have a company to my book is a journal and planner.

Manley Feinberg: Is a daily focus that focuses incorporate some of that vertical lessons and just a daily daily and weekly, monthly, how do we stay focused and get what’s important done so. Did I do that that’s one of them.

Manley Feinberg: Think that’s most of them and Morning. Morning movement. So jumping jacks push ups.

Manley Feinberg: Sit ups and bounce on a rebounder for like three or four minutes. Just a little bit in the morning to get me going is something that’s important as well.

Manley Feinberg: And in the evening. I tried to do a little yoga. I don’t do that very often I meditate in the evening, but I’m that one I’ve hardly ever hit this morning, my journal in the evening is one of those are to my weakest

Manley Feinberg: As far as execution lives. So during the journaling in the evening is, you know, and really as important as it is in the morning. Amen. I don’t

Manley Feinberg: Don’t do very consistently but so

David Horsager: When you look at those 12 you look at them morning and night to see where you are. Do you just do them every morning. You look at her every night. You’ll again.

Manley Feinberg: That’s good question. I sort of check in and not as a. That’s where I need to be more consistent. I don’t really in the morning to clean it resets them so

Manley Feinberg: In the evening I usually look and see, you know, where am I leaving time and which ones can ask to get done and maybe have it when you get all the AMP. I like to use, by the way, is called streaks.

Manley Feinberg: Focuses on the street, right. So that’s the thing about like the meditation. When I do not want to break that streak. There’s something

Manley Feinberg: We know in psychology that people are humans are very motivated. That’s not breaking a streak. So, it focuses it’s built around that, you know, psychological principle really helpful. So I’ve told just different apps. Yeah. Check that one out.

David Horsager: Lots of good stuff here. Wow, we could talk all day.

David Horsager: Yeah, mainly, I’d love to ask you lots more, but we’re gonna jump into the lightning round is wind down for our time together. And here we go. You ready

David Horsager: Got it. Got a good sip of that ginger snappy Sue juice.

David Horsager: There you go. All right. What’s a current favorite book or resource that stood out to you lately.

Manley Feinberg: The untethered soul. Our friend Jason Hewitt recommended this book, years ago it to me. And it’s, it’s been a game changer. Talk about the relationship with the voices in your mind and your head there. It’s an incredibly powerful book that’s my favorite lightly.

David Horsager: And just a reminder ALL THIS ALL BE IN THE SNOW SNOW notes.

David Horsager: As well as the show notes coming from Minnesota today. So the show notes on the site at trusted leader show.com and you’ll see

David Horsager: manley’s website and vertigo lesson site and where you can get the book and where you can get his journal and where you can see videos of him and some of his other stories that he can get to watch him play guitar. By the way, we didn’t talk about that much.

Manley Feinberg: Amazing.

David Horsager: On the electric guitar. So anyway, all that will be at WW trusted leader show.com What’s something you can’t live without.

Manley Feinberg: My family. Yeah.

David Horsager: All right. Hey, my favorite food in the world is ice cream as much as I seek to eat very healthy. Most of the time. What is your favorite flavor.

Manley Feinberg: Cherry heavy by Ben and Jerry’s

Manley Feinberg: And I had a long time. So saying they still make it. I mean, give it to eat more ice cream.

David Horsager: I like it. Well, what’s your favorite food.

Manley Feinberg: Favorite food topic. I think we like ate a lot of ethnic food and I think athlete and Indians have up there as well. So, yeah.

David Horsager: What what motivates you.

Manley Feinberg: To stay focused on serving people and like just how that earlier. If I’m kind of too much in Ireland separately. I am not lose I get lost that. And so that’s that’s important.

David Horsager: Anyway, one piece of advice that you’d say to everybody out there, you know, here’s one thing you could do tomorrow morning. You know, I’ve got all these vertical

David Horsager: lessons I’ve got these things that have helped me climb summits and build businesses, but one tip, they could take away and start tomorrow morning, that would help them be a more trusted leader.

Manley Feinberg: Pick pick one person in your life, personal, professional and not from your inbox, or just from just sit for a second. And the first person hit your head or your heart.

Manley Feinberg: Reach out to that person in the most engaging way you can maybe it’s video. If you can’t see them, if not worse case text message.

Manley Feinberg: And let them know you’re thinking of them and that you believe them and whatever words that are authentic for you.

Manley Feinberg: And I think people need that right now, more than ever, and I think it when you can do that authentically consistently it builds the relationships and based on trust you and I are passionate about.

Manley Feinberg: And then, then the results. You know, I think that’s really about that. That’s what’s going to make the difference and whatever’s next for all this being a miserable struggle or massive summit and success is how we build those relations now.

David Horsager: Absolutely. Everyone cases. Dig your well before you’re thirsty. Right.

David Horsager: It’s kind of like build those relationships. Okay, before I give you the last question of all. Anything else about where to find you. You know, we talked about vertical lessons calm, tell us

Manley Feinberg: Yeah hat. I’m on. I’m on LinkedIn. I’M NOT BEEN I HAVE NOT BEEN SUCH A GREAT WAY TO HAVE BEEN super active on social media, but I am on social media summit vertical lessons calm, you can find social media links there.

Manley Feinberg: My cell phone number is on every page email just reach out to me. I would love to connect with you and support you. Any way I can

David Horsager: That is one thing you are accessible and unless you’re on a mountain, and you just don’t answer.

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, long time. Right, exactly. That’s kind of one extreme, or the other for me.

David Horsager: All right. Lastly, you know, the show. It’s called the trusted leader show for a reason, who is a leader you trust, maybe the most, but someone that stands out to you and why

Manley Feinberg: Yeah, my son, actually, is who comes to mind buried in why I thought about this a lot today actually lead up to this.

Manley Feinberg: He’s, he’s developing leadership skills. And I think it’s something you can definitely develop and I think we every great leader isn’t working on developing their leadership skills and body that so he’s doing that. Some I also believe

Manley Feinberg: You can be born with some natural gifts that also amplify your influence and your ability to lead and he has this X factor.

Manley Feinberg: He’s president of his fraternity this year as a sophomore, which is kind of speaks in itself as an influence. So it’s about he’s hard. I think people know how much he cares and in a stabilizing and he has this steady presence that’s I think they met my son.

Manley Feinberg: He just has this presence about him. It’s really

Manley Feinberg: Calming and confident. I think you feel you feel say when you’re with him.

Manley Feinberg: And for back to line up. I think the person you have to know that they’re in, you know, even if not consciously aware that you it’s somewhat level you’re aware that they’re trustworthy and they have integrity and they care.

Manley Feinberg: And so, yeah, that’s I’m coming off of him and where he is in his life and everything going on and and how he’s operating and so

David Horsager: I’m just going to call version three right

Manley Feinberg: Yeah yeah version three point out decade mailing mailing and the third is official name. So that’s been a leader. I’m most a boy watching right now and paying attention to.

David Horsager: Good. I love it.

David Horsager: Manly. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thanks for all the tips and takeaways more than that. Thanks for being my friend, you can find everything you’d like about manly at the show notes trusted leader show.com thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time.